Our DM is short on prep time, and so far I've purchased Keep on the Shadowfell and Pyramid of Shadows for him to use. Bearing in mind that I absolutely LOVE 4e as a system, the main criticism I have of the modules' encounter designs are that so far, they're chock full o' low numbers of high-hp opponents. For example, in PoS, the Headless Vyrellis had more hps than pretty much the rest of the party combined. Our combats tend to go something along the lines of
I hit
I hit
I hit
I hit
I hit
I hit
(ad nauseum)
OK, now it's bloodied...
*sigh*
Our party's Wizard is really not enjoying this because the way I've observed the system to be set up, Wizards excell at doing moderate amounts of damage to large areas. However, with an encounter diesign of fewer numbers of high-hp monsters, (A) the party has to swarm the monster(s) to take it/them down, which means that (B) the Wizard can't let loose with the "big bada boom" for fear of catching the other party members* in the blast, or (C) unless the Wizard wants to cut loose with a "daily" like spectral ram, the damage output is largely ineffectual compared to the opponent(s) hps.
Now let me be abundantly clear on this point: If you enjoy this style of play, good for you! If your experience has been different from mine, good for you! However, I (and I suspect the rest of my group) have not been thrilled overmuch so far. As such, I'm wondering if the other modules in the series (P1-3, etc.) have similar encounter designs.
*the party consists of a paladin, a fighter, a rogue, a warlock, a wizard, and a cleric.
The only module that I've played has been "King of the Trollhaunt Warrens" the 11-13 one, I believe. I wouldn't say it was horrible or anything. I would just say that it made me wish my character was a cobbler in the game! It certainly would have been funner!
The problem, although not entirely different from yours, did not revolve around how the fights were. It was how many fights there were.That's all the module was...
SLIGHT SPOILERS!
We roleplaed in the town for maybe ten minutes (but not before fighting some trolls). Once we reached the dungeon it was nothing but four strait sessions of fighting, there were more monsters than you describe, but it didn't help the fact that it played like this:
A room!
Party- Sweet!
DM- It's filled with trolls!
Party- Sweet!
Next room!
Party!- Sweet!
DM- Troglodytes and trolls!
Party- Okay, cool.
Third room!
Party- Sweet!
DM- Weird cyclops things!
Party- That attack us?
Fourth room!
Party- Alright.
DM- Stairs!
Party- Cool!
DM- Leading to a bunch of trolls!
Party- Umm...
Fifth room!
Party- Hmm...
DM- You see-
Party- Troglodytes that attack us, right?
DM- No a black dragon!
Party- Cool! I ask it what it's doing here!
DM- (Roleplaying ensues)... It attacks you! / I try to steal its gold when it isn't looking, my meager attempt to add a non-fight to the game.
Yeah... Just a hack n' slash.
We ended up dropping the module and our DM made up the last half of the dungeon, it was awesome after that. Involving one of our characters dueling the King and becoming the trolls' new leader.
If you're very used to older editions of the game, then yes HP will seem very inflated, it takes 4-5 good hits to drop an average foe now (where as previously it was probably 1-3) and if you roll very poorly it could easily be many more. This is very noticeable as a controller class as they have significantly lower single target damage than the other classes. But the controller shouldn't be carrying about damage, they should be hindering enemies with effects and altering the battlefield.
If your wizard player wants a 3e style blaster that can pump out buckets of damage a 4e sorcerer is probably much more appropriate to play.
The other issue is that most of the 4e modules are hack fests.
I own (but will never run) Keep on the Shadowfell. It's more or less a hack 'n' slash as you describe in your post with a few limited opportunities to add a little bit of fairly shallow roleplay if the DM desires.
Having looked through an open copy of Thunderspire Labrynth at a game store I found it to be much of the same.
I have heard good things about P2, but the "twist" is supposedly very obvious.
The Ebberon adventure, Seekers of the Ashen Crown is supposedly fairly solid as well.
I have heard some good things about the Goodman Games 4e adventure modules but haven't looked at them.
So far, I haven't been impressed with any pre-made, 4E adventures I have used so far. I tried Kobold Hall (from the DMG), Rescue at Rivenroar and are currently running Keep on the Shadowfell. My impression of these adventures is that they are designed for an audience that my group does not belong.
What I have found is that it works better if I just use the adventure story, fit it into my campaign and just modify the adventure and encounters (mostly trimming the number of encounters down) to suit my and my group's needs. It seems to me that my players enjoy my changes more than what is stated in the adventure. I tend to solicit feedback from my group and then make adjustments based on the feedback. The result is a better game for everyone.
If the OP is finding that the adventure is not working out, then I would suggest modifying it. The DM of the group has a better idea of how to make an adventure or encounter more fun for the group than the author of published adventures. The reason is that authors have no information on what specific play groups enjoy whereas DM's have that information. If your wizard is not having fun, with his AoE attacks, then modify the adventure to perhaps replace one of the big enemies with a bunch of smaller ones here and there. The wizard can have the opportunity to blast multiple enemies more often. Just ensure that your changes are not causing someone else to not enjoy the game.
But the controller shouldn't be carrying about damage, they should be hindering enemies with effects and altering the battlefield.
However, because the opponent-to-player ratio is skewed, anything the Wizard does to alter the enemy's terrain by and large hampers the allies as well.
EDIT: And agreed with Stuntman. When I "guest ran" PoS for awhile when the regular DM was out of town, I "minionized" a couple of monsters for a few encounters. In other words, I took 1 or 2 monsters multiplied them by 4 of the same type, averaged their damage output, and gave them 1 hp each. It went pretty well. I may suggest that to the DM.
So are the other WotC modules desgined like this as well? I was kinda looking forward to the underdark adventure with the drow...
WotC mods have always been designed for more simplistic play. The story lines are interesting, but fights tend to be very easy for an experienced group. Treasure awards tend to suck as well.
I have heard good things about P2, but the "twist" is supposedly very obvious.
My group is currently running through all the scenarios. We're at the endgame of Trollhaunt at the moment and P2 is up next, with me due to run it. I have to say, that from looking at it, it's by far superior to many the other released scenarios, with role-play emphasised over hack 'n slash. In fact, if your party prefers giong for the hack 'n slash the scenario is downright lethal (should the party draw too much attention on themselves they won't be able to take a long rest for most of the second half of the adventure). I'm really looking forward to running it.
Edit: Meant to say P2, not P3
Which one is P3?
Which one is P3?
Nightwyrm Fortress I believe. I'm told it looks fairly decent by the person who's going to be running it for m group. I mean to say that I was doing P2 in my post, not P3. P2 is the one I know has huge amounts of RP involved.
Well, I found KotS extremely boring to read & nearly as bad to play through.
Not too difficult as many try & make it out to be, just.....not interesting.
Same with Pyramid.
I can't describe how bland I'm finding the SoW from Dungeon.
As for the others? Don't know, and not about to waste my time/$ finding out.
Keep on the Shadowfell (the printed version at least) is somewhat well known to be light on story. Having played through it, I personally feel much of the fights come across as random fights just for the sake of fights. (The slime as written is kind of too tough for a level 1 group with any kind of speed -- being a level 3 solo brute and all.)
The treasure was also lacking in that adventure (and not really good anyway), and some encounters were horribly balanced. There is a free download of the adventure in edited form where some problems were apparently addressed, but that won't really help your group too much at this point.
However, when you run a premade module you would be well advised to make personalizing alterations. It is pretty much required, because no group is the same, and premade modules meant to just work for "every" group quite often don't work for "your" group. Even if pressed for time, the DM can jot in some notes for roleplaying, combat and tactic alterations, monster tweaks and so on.
Rescue at Rivenroar was also mentioned; that is also a kind of notorious generic hack and slash, so just know that what's been cited isn't regarded as the cream of the crop anyway. I don't have experience running it, but it is/was a frequently mentioned criticism of that particular adventure. Others are "better," in the sense of more story perhaps.
The preprinted adventures do tend to be overly generic, but it appears that it is at least some sort of design decision to do so, leaving the DM free to alter it. Many people would prefer more specific and story-consistent adventures though.
So what's P2 then?
The published 4E modules I've played seemed to be one extreme or the other...one module was encounter-encounter-encounter, and the next was skill challenge until your eyeballs bleed (start at 7:15 pm, finish skill challenges at 10 pm)...
I ran KoTS and am currently running Thunderspire for my group. It really appears to me that Thunderspire was NOT written for 4e. I think KoTS is much better done.
It is, however, hard to judge KoTS because much of the page count of the module is the abridged 4e rules.
My issue is that the modules don't have a lot of focus. There's not really much to draw the players into the modules. KoTS has a few problems in that the NPCs who provide the adventure hooks aren't really used and that they are too many "named" NPCs in Winterhaven.
I had started my campaign with my own ideas and storyline, but due to some struggles, decided to restart using the published modules. Unfortunately, I took things to far in the "other" direction. I am going to (hopefully) suprise my players be reintroducing my original storyline and begin reflavoring the published modules.
One thing I would like to see in an upcoming published module (as a DM) is a storyline that spans 6 separate "delves." Each delve would be 3-5 encounters that advance the story. The advantage of this model is that most groups will be able to complete a single delve per session and they tend to be easier to reflavor for campaigns.
So what's P2 then?
P2 is Demon Queen's Enclave. As for what happens in it:
*Severe Spoiler Warning*
Phaervorul is a small drow outpost in the Underdark which stands on an unstable gate to one of Orcus' domains in the Shadowfell. While that particular domain has been dormant for a while, recently a new Exarch of Orcus is coming to power there. A Vampiric drow named Zirthian who holds a particular grudge against the ruling elite of Phaervorul. In order to gain the full backing of his master though, and truly beomce and Exarch, he has to not only slaughter all the inhabitants of Phaervorul, but also the adventurers (as Orcus is holding a grudge after the KotS(H1) debacle). So Zirthian has called the party to Phaervorul to challenge them and defeat and humiliate them.
The first half of the adventure takes place in Phaervorul after a journey which can involve (among other things) a friendly lich and a small group of Illithid slavers (who aren't interested in fighting) and travelling through Thunderspire Labyrinth (H2). The scenario proper opens with the PCs finding themselves in the middle of a battle between the native drow and the invading undead, and can help or hinder the drow, or merely kill everyone. While in Phaevorul, the party can forge alliances with various members of the settlement who will mostly be attempting to use the party to take out all their rivals. This is interspersed with various battles against the invading hordes of demons and the undead and the occasional band of Shunned. The monsters all work well together and can prove to be dangerous to even the best equipped teams if they're not careful, with the terrain in some areas proving particularly nasty (encounters L1, L5, and V1 being particularly nasty examples of this)
The second half of the adventure proper starts with a role-played encounter where the players can gain some valuable information as well as protection from a couple of the nastier aspects of Dreadhold, or can have life become more difficult. They can even choose to sacrifice an NPC to the encounter if they want to go down the evil route.
Then things start to really go downhill for the unwary adventurer. A ten hour journey can bring the party to the point of exhaustion. Especially since howling winds, stinging insects and other miscellaneous problems stop the party from taking anything more than a short rest for its duration. They can reach once they reach Dreadhold itself, but they should be careful as the more encounters they undertake, the heavier the patrols get until it reaches the point where the players cannot rest without being interrupted by enemies. If the party are careful not to draw attention to themselves and their activities though, they'll be fine.
The penultimate encounter is another RP'd encounter which allows a creative party and DM to really let loose and enjoy themselves which makes up for the final encounter which, while difficult if the PC's haven't been given the chance to prepare themselves or have been acting carelessly throughout their time in Dreadhold, isn't particularly amazing.
On returning to Phaervorul, the PC's will be betrayed by almost everyone they allied with in typical Drow fashion, and may even find themselves in a worse situation than they were already in before they entered Dreadhold depending on who they allied with.
All in all, it seems a fine adventure, rife with possibilities for PC-NPC interaction and character development. Though a group preferring a Hack'n'Slash Monty Haul style of play probably won't find it particularly amazing, a group interested in the more subtle elements of play should find it very fun indeed.
Sounds neat, and this was the adventure I was looking forward to. I've been a fan of the drow since back in the days of the Fiend Folio and the Against the Giants series.
So how is encounter design in comparison to KotS and PoS? EDIT: And with it being the 2nd in the Paragon series, that's around 12th-16th level or thereabouts?
Sounds neat, and this was the adventure I was looking forward to. I've been a fan of the drow since back in the days of the Fiend Folio and the Against the Giants series.
So how is encounter design in comparison to KotS and PoS? EDIT: And with it being the 2nd in the Paragon series, that's around 12th-16th level or thereabouts?
Level 14 to 17 according to the cover.
Most of the encounters in the first half of the adventure take place across multiple rooms. Encounter L4, for example has the players battle in the house of a merchant against multiple undead, enabling them to use tactics different to the normal "single room big enough to contain all party members and monsters while providing room for manouverability". It's more like skirmishing in a city than dungeon crawling, allowing the combats to have a more realistic feel to them, especially since it manages to avoid the question of why the monsters in the next room of the dungeon aren't joining in the fight in this room.
The encounters in the second half of the scenario are almost all outdoors, allowing party members who have taken the mounted combat feat to actually get to use their mounts for once, bringing in a new dimension to the battles that can take place there.
In terms of danger, the First half of the scenario is pretty average, with some encounters being more difficult than others where appropriate, though I would advise double checking how area effects interact with walls before playing as there are a lot of them. Most of the creatures have abilities that complement each other nicely and make sense to be together rather than the usual mish-mash that can be found so players won't find themselves wondering why, for example, they're being attacked by a band of gnomes and kobolds. There are some decent encounters where playing around with the terrain is not only possible, but advised. Being a city, there are also very few traps so a rogue isn't likely to find himself particularly useful in this respect here.
In the second half, however, the lethality levels increase drastically with creatures such as bodaks being introduced, and their ability to take down a full-health PC in a single round. Many of the encounters here can be gotten around via diplomacy and roleplaying though, so as I say, a hack'n'slash party will probably find it pretty hard going, especially given the aforementioned difficulty with resting. The main difficluty of the final encounter will likely be the amount of enemies the PC's face and their (likely) low surges and possible absence of dailies rather that the actual characters involved, but a competant party should eb able to get through it without too much difficulty while still being threatened.
The majority of the monsters the party will face are undead, so a party with Invokers and other anti-undead divine classes will do well. When the party face drow, it will typically be an assault on a decently fortified position so they'll have more difficulty with that.
There's a decent amount of treasure throughout, far better in that regard than previous scenarios, with a total monetary value of 13,000gp (resale of one lv 15 magic item included, 8,000gp without resale of item) in the first three encounters alone. A significant increase from other scenarios which might give you that over the course of the whole thing.
Overall, the encounters and encounter structure are superior in my opinion to previous adventures.
Are the combat encounters set up like PoS in that you have fewer numbers of high-hp opponents, or is there a mix of skirmishers, artillery, etc., with minions or low-hp creatures to flesh things out?
Most encounters consist of soldiers backed up by skirmishers, with minions being found in about a third of the encounters. Non-minion encounters will generally have between four and six enemies. In most cases where minions are found they're to serve as cannon fodder to boost the difficulty of the encounter slightly rather than to flesh things out. Artillery is rare; controllers slightly more common. Most monsters engage in hand-to-hand rather than go for the range. The hit points tend to range between 100 and 200 (low-to mid hundreds for the drow, mid-to-high for the undead and demons), but there's an elite monster in five encounters for every eight or so in the first half (though many of these encounters can be avoided through negotiation). In the second half, almost every encounter has an elite monster in it. Combats will probably be long I suspect, and dangerous for the characters. Certain encounters will almost certainly break down in to a war of attrition with each group wearing down the other's HP.
I've played through Keep, Maze, Pyramid and half of the Warrens.
I saw potential in everything but the Pyramid, but really any potential needs to be added by the DM, which didn't happen unfortunately. We kept going because we actually liked our characters and were having fun despite the adventure design. The Pyramid of Shadows actually made me stop having fun for a long time. A REALLY long time. I am not sure if we got our money's worth or paid dearly for having played, but we definitely invested the time. We quit with the Trollhaunt Warrens and restarted, I think because the Pyramid made us forget that role-playing was actually an option.
All that said, Scales of War is a vastly superior set of adventures I think. I really enjoyed running those (up through sixth level anyway). The story was interesting and the encounters seemed more interesting as well. Some of them actually allow for role-playing!
The most critical thing I think is that the DM modify an adventure to suit their tastes. When running the Scales of War I cut out about a third of the encounters that I thought were unnecessary. Just level the characters when appropriate and it works well to run less of the encounters and add to the role-playing aspects instead. I think pre-made games are fine as long as you're willing to take a little time to make them your own.
I saw potential in everything but the Pyramid, but really any potential needs to be added by the DM, which didn't happen unfortunately. We kept going because we actually liked our characters and were having fun despite the adventure design. The Pyramid of Shadows actually made me stop having fun for a long time.
I know precisely what you mean. I spent more time getting annoyed by pyramid than enjoying it. The adventure seemed dreary, with no real plot behind it.The BBEG was so generic I can't even remember his name and the dungeon seemed to be just a bunch of monsters thrown randomly together without rhyme nor reason.
KoTS has a few problems in that the NPCs who provide the adventure hooks aren't really used and that they are too many "named" NPCs in Winterhaven.
I found that many modules come with many "named" NPC's. Even some small modules had many. What I found was that it worked quite well if I just focus on only a couple of these NPC's and forget about the rest. I would only introduce others if the party decide to do more exploring. Having just a couple of NPC's tend to keep the focus of the adventure and not distract the players too much. Also, it makes it easier for me as well.
I believe a glut of named NPCs and described locations is an attempt to facilitate any potential roleplaying which may take place, though often suggestions for such are not directly provided in the text.
Since Winterhaven is a town being introduced, it stands to reason there are several important people in that town, even if not directly relevent to the adventure. The opposite end would be "Why are there only 3 people in this village with names? It's supposed to be a big town."
I know precisely what you mean. I spent more time getting annoyed by pyramid than enjoying it. The adventure seemed dreary, with no real plot behind it.The BBEG was so generic I can't even remember his name and the dungeon seemed to be just a bunch of monsters thrown randomly together without rhyme nor reason.
You mean Karavakos? Heh. I think we spent close to three months of weekly games in that stupid pyramid. My hopes were high when we first found Vyrilis (or her head at least) which is about 10 minutes into the dungeon. Random doesn't even begin to describe the level of thought that went into that dungeon design. I'm sure the designers read these forums from time to time and I apologize for trashing someone's work, but I hope no one ever thinks a dungeon like that is a good idea ever again. Sadly, it's the exact same concept that "The World's Largest Dungeon" was built on. Didn't work there either.
I think it's next to impossible to run almost any published adventure as-is and have it be a memorable and rewarding adventure for the players.
What I first started my campaign, I came up with my own overreaching story arc and reflavored the published adventures (H1 and Dungeon Delve) to try and fit my campaign. I ended up hitting a huge roadblock and scrapped my campaign and started over with the published adventures as-written.
Boy, was that a mistake! The good thing with restarting is that one player dropped and we gained a new player. In addition, a player who I'd asked to play a Shifter Warden was really unhappy with his character and is now playing a Gnome Sorceror (stupid gnome).
I have some breathing room now because another player is running a campaign as well (his first session was last week). The plan right now is that he's going to run for a few weeks, then I'll run, etc.
What I've decided to do (and haven't told my players) is to restore my original campaign idea (basically it's recovering relics of the gods). We're about halfway through Thunderspire, and I'll be able to incorporate the story elements. I'll be reintroducing the two former PCs as NPCs (but not DMPCs) and also revive some of the running "gags".
We have two DMs who trade off running two sepparte campaigns. Both are pretty good at modifying and stringing together published adventures to create a fairly interesting and internally consistent campaign.
One started with KotS and Thunderpire, and we found them reasonable. We found the fairly large fights against varied enemies and the greater mobility required by 4e refreshing after playing mid-level 3.5 with it's tendency towards a smaller number of extremely deadly opponents that you take out in a round or few. The DM declined to run Pyramid of Shadows, which is aparently a bit much of a an old-school no-rhyme-or-reason collection of monsters in rooms. Instead we did Citadel of the Corruptor, followed by a couple of original adventures. The bad things I noticed about KotS and Thunderspire (aside from KotS clearly being designed with 4e still not quite finalized yet) were 1) skill challenged really didn't work and 2) Elite Controllers 4+ levels above the party make annoying BBEGs (they just end up being too hard to hit, and you get a slow, grinding, war of attrition). Solos, OTOH, were fine - they had a lot of hit points, but you could hit them often enough to feel like you were making some progress.
The other started with Sellswords of Punjar followed by Scepter Tower of Spellguard. Both reasonably successful, though the first suffered greatly from restricted space in a couple of the enounters. We have a large party, and, while the DM remembered to adjust the encounters to compensate, he at first neglected to adjust the size of the rooms. ;) SToS was OK, once we got rolling. The hooks provided were numerous and varied, but weak, and it took a while before we became genuinely interested.
I guess because we're a large party and the DMs adjust encounters upwards, we've rarely had really small-number/high-hp encounters. Solos excepted, of course.
As a player I've ran through KotS, Thunderspire, Pyramid of Shadows, TrollHaunt warrens and the demon queen's Enclave.
I *think* we've done the majority of the Nightwyrm fortress one.
Mileage varied. KotS was a haze since I was still getting used to the edition. Pyramid of Shadows was one long drawn out torture for me as a player. I felt close to giving up 4e then and there. Even high fantasy games have a limit to suspension of disbelief.
After the pyramid, I thoroughly enjoyed the Trollhaunt warrens, though I chalk that more up to the Pyramid being so bad than the Trollhaunt warrens being good.
I enjoyed the cityfights in that adventure though.
The Demonqueen's Enclave was enjoyable due to all the possible skill challenges. I enjoyed the setting of the first half. We probably raced a bit too fast through all the encounters to enjoy it a lot, but it was still good for a bit of fun and RP. The second half felt completely different, not bad, just different. Probably due to the fact that 2 players changed characters then, giving a different feel and flow to the game.
Assault on the Nightwyrm fortress has a few interesting tidbits.
*small spoiler*
The fact that you're fighting draconic wraiths and a dracolich and still need to fight the BBEG gives you a good feel that you're working your way up in the world as a character and feels a bit more epic, than an average dungeon crawl.
one encounter so far seemed a bit inappropriate and oddly placed, but that is just me nitpicking.
I ran my players through KoTS, and we used it mainly as a way to learn the system. Even so, I had to make some major changes to the storyline, as I thought it was rather limited. I bought Thunderspire Labyrinth, and having read it, found it even less useful than KoTS. Pyramid of Shadows? Well I bought it, hoping for improvement, and I hated it. A bunch of non-related encounters crammed into a single space isn't what I need.
I ran Sceptre Tower of Spellgard, but even that was little more than three separate mini-dungeons (the rampart with the were-rats, the undead sewers, and the tower itself). Each one was ok, but they didn't feel as if they were designed to fit together in a meaningful way, and the idea that the PCs will wander around the area bumping into the various other groups just doesn't work. My party immediately went to the ramparts and just went straight through.
So overall, I've not been mightily impressed with the modules, which is why I've found myself writing my own stuff more.
I've only read the first 3-4 replies to this topic and what I notice from there is that the DM doesn't put any effort into the module. It is true that the module straight out of the box need work. The modules talk mainly about encounters and relatively little about the fluff. This is also what you see in every adventure and book produced by Wizards. There is little to no talk about the fluff and story and immersion. It is assumed to a proper DM will add that to the modules himself during play. If you don't than all you have is a boring hack and slash module. They aren't written like the 3.5 modules where you have 20 pages per NPC explaining how it acts and what the motivations are. In 4e the DM has to figure that out himself and add it to the game.
Winterhaven and keep of the shadowfell quickly tend to fall into a hack and slash module. But if you add more personality to the npc's, add some inner city trouble and deepen the motivations of the bad guys....than you'll have a lot more fun.
In short it isn't so much a complaint about the modules I see as it is having a pathetic DM complaint.
When it comes to solos, the design theory shifted between the MM1 and MM2; the early adventures were pre-MM1, so there are probably even more issues. A loose suggestion given by the developers to make the solo fights more interesting (and more in keeping with the MM2) is: reduce their defenses by 2 and their HPs by 20%, but they do +50% damage while Bloodied.
This actually makes fighting them a bit more tactically demanding: You don't want to burn down their hit points quickly with dailies and encounters and then be left fighting them on at-will fumes once they're Bloodied!
We had a blast with KotS. For us it was mostly roleplay and the like. I think the group and the DM really make the module.
I've only read the first 3-4 replies to this topic and what I notice from there is that the DM doesn't put any effort into the module. It is true that the module straight out of the box need work. The modules talk mainly about encounters and relatively little about the fluff. This is also what you see in every adventure and book produced by Wizards. There is little to no talk about the fluff and story and immersion. It is assumed to a proper DM will add that to the modules himself during play. If you don't than all you have is a boring hack and slash module.
I do agree with you that it is up to the DM to tweak the module to incorporate the amount and type of role-playing that the players in their game enjoy.
My issue (at least with H1 and H2) is that they tend to introduce NPCs and locations that aren't really used in the modules. A particular NPC might only be encountered for one minute and then, as far as the adventure is concerned, could drop dead on the spot. They normally don't matter and aren't used in subsequent adventures.
There's quite a bit of "real estate" in H1 and H2 describing Winterhaven and the 7-Pillared Hall (and the residents of those areas). There's only one encounter in the 7-Pillared Hall (with generic duergar) and there are NO encounters in Winterhaven.
Where is the confrontation with Brugg? Why is Douven used as an adventure hook, rescued, then forgotten? Why are so many locations in Winterhaven and the Hall placed on the map, described, and given an NPC? Why not have a half-level's worth of the adventure take place in those locations and involve the NPCs who are described in the adventure?
So what are some highlights & lowlights from Dungeon?
I don't think I've ever run a module right from the box, as it were. NPCs get personalities, quests get reasons, etc etc. I see potential in KoS, and will likely use parts of it at the very least. I'm already using Winterhaven as a base for the PCs (though heavily modified in terms of the villages feel and personality).
Mainly when I read a module its to crib ideas for plot hooks and encounters that I then reweave into my own. Right now though, I'm doing that with Slave Pits of the Undercity. I figure if I'm going to be reworking modules anyway, why not use the classics.
The published modules are fun - full of action - lots of fights with some cool monsters. Why would you want less fights? Do you just want to burn through the module w/o enjoying all the game it offers? That seems impatient just to get to the ending asap.
Also, these were created by the official D&D team so isn't it more likely they are doing it right and yall are just doing it wrong or at least imposing your 3 or 3.5 e views on the modules (or some other game/edition views)?
Food for thought.
The published modules are fun - full of action - lots of fights with some cool monsters. Why would you want less fights? Do you just want to burn through the module w/o enjoying all the game it offers? That seems impatient just to get to the ending asap.
Also, these were created by the official D&D team so isn't it more likely they are doing it right and yall are just doing it wrong or at least imposing your 3 or 3.5 e views on the modules (or some other game/edition views)?
Food for thought.
Nope.
Not a one of the current crop of modules is going to be held in the same esteem as Temple of Elemental Evil, Ravenloft, Slave Pits of the Undercity, Queen of the Demonweb, White Plume Mountain, Tomb of Horrors, Ravenloft, Queen of the Spiders etc. Part of the problem is that, more than any other edition, 4E encounters need to be based off the party. What one party breezes through in minutes might be TPK for another party. There's too much disparity between characters, races, monsters, builds etc for any pre-published module to be exactly right for any given gamer. As a hypothetical example say I buy a pre-written module that heavily features undead. By your "logic" it must be good. However if I have a party that's heavily slanted towards Radient damage for whatever reason, those undead are going to be so much easier than for a party slanted towards Necrotic or Poison damage.
Tailoring things also allows the DM to plan for contingencies. In our game, our cleric player couldn't make it. The party had no Leader, thus lacking healing. So I threw some extra healing potions into the treasure mix.
I shudder to think that there's groups out there anywhere who simply play by the RAW and use pre-written modules with no alterations. That's the sort of lack of imagination that RPGs are supposed to curb!
So from a player's perspective, what are some "thumbs up" or "give it the finger" modules? We're nearing the end (finally!) of Pyramid of Shadows, and we're considering our next move. One thought is to "level up" some more and go through the Spider Queen's Enclave.