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Players who abuse rules

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
legba11
Mar 11, 2009 14:03:36 Blah blah been asked a million times I'm sure. What do you all do when another player at your table is bending and twisting rules to their favor all of time? Often the DM doesn't notice, and I would hate to be the rules lawyer...
#2
rodolfomaxi
Mar 11, 2009 14:17:20 What do i do?

I tell him that he his use of the rules is incoherent after i have the right page of the PHB opened and already in everybody's view.

What else is there to be done?
This isn't being a lawyer at all..if your friend is honest and is making a mistake he'll learn (along with everybody else) and thus be grateful to you.
#3
lordcorwyyn
Mar 11, 2009 14:21:03 Do you mean to the party's favour, or specifically and only the player's favour? And is he citing the rules correctly or using loopholes and grey areas to eke out an advantage?

I tend to be OCD (I'm an accountant by training and an auditor by trade, so it was beaten into me at school and work), so I'm usually the guy saying "Hey, um, that should normally be X, not Y," not because I'm trying to pull anything, but because it bothers me when there's no consistency. The DMs I play with know this, and if it's "wrong" on purpose, they just say "It's special," and I know that there's a reason for things. Your guy may be doing something similar.

If it's bothering you, just talk to him about it after a session. Usually a "Hey, what's up with this, why are you doing this all the time?" works. If it's bothering everybody else, use the same tactic, maybe over beer after a game in a relaxed setting.
#4
trei
Mar 11, 2009 17:13:39 To avoid hurting feelings, take him aside before the next session, and tell him "Hey I noticed you haven't been doing this the right way. You're supposed to do it this way -- just wanted to let you know before the DM thinks you're cheating or something."

You know, play it off like he misunderstood the rules to avoid putting blame on him. If he keeps it up, though, you've warned him. Your conscience is clear. Call him out in public. The only thing worse than cheating towards the DM is having the other players know about it too.
#5
Krusk
Mar 11, 2009 19:31:08 Take the DM aside, and say "Hey I noticed the group is using this rule differently than the book. Is there a house rule we are using I missed? Here is how it has been used, and here is how I think it should be." If I am right about the rule, and the DM agrees, I ask they clarify it before the next session to everyone. If I am wrong, problem solved. If I notice it is still going on, I bring it up again after the next session "Hey I noticed one of the players is purposly misreading a rule/cheating, could you say something about it?" Most DMs I play with at this time make an announcement like this "I have noticed some cheating happening this game, if it keeps going on I will uninvite the player."

Usually solves the problems.
#6
Novacat
Mar 12, 2009 0:39:31 If you're willing to be the unpopular one for the sake of honesty, you can be the one to argue against him when he pulls up some BS. Even if he's trying to make arguments in the party's favor, if it's against the rules, and he's tricking the DM (or even if he's honestly wrong), you can take the high road and correct the situation.

DMs that I play under regularly know me as the guy who will argue my opinion honestly, even if it hurts the party, so they respect my opinion more.
#7
Kerrus
Mar 12, 2009 1:39:00 Yeah, I have that happen a lot too. Even as a player, I'd rather the DM know what I want to do so he can tell me if he's going to allow that (mostly through trying to use spells in innovative-but-not-munchy ways) rather then trying to sneak it by him like the rest of the party does.

Sure, it probably impacts my chances at pulling that off, but at the same time, the DM doesn't get nearly as annoyed as he does when the Ranger decides his family is totally rich and he should deserve to get free money from them.
#8
valrora_the_powerful
Mar 13, 2009 14:53:01 Be shur that he isn't simply useing the rules, nothing can **** of a player then being told by another player "YOU CANT DO THAT!". Perhaps the DM is simply a rules light DM?
Can you please clarify a little bit more? Is he useing his skills in a creative way or is he min-maxing to hell? Can you please give us a solid example?
#9
Nived
Mar 15, 2009 15:05:11 Fain ignorance and follow up with a dose of polite sarcasm.

"I'm sorry, but where are you getting that bonus?" asked in a genuinely curious sort of voice.
*listen to his ******** explanation*
*Nod and act like you're following along* "See that's what confuses me because on page XX it seems to say that this is the way it should be."

Best case you have exposed his error in a way that he can back away from gracefully "Oh, guess I was wrong", and save some face. This is good for everyone avoids an argument and keeps the game going with the proper rule now in place.
#10
ciaran
Mar 16, 2009 15:56:57 This bothers me too. I've misunderstood abilities before. Some just aren't easy to understand or you might inject knowledge of another ability and assume it runs the same way. But the reason it bothers me is that I try to run my character according to the rules, just as I expect the DM to do the same, and don't appreciate other players conveniently not doing so to make their character more powerful.

We're playing 4E right now and our Ranger, I'm pretty sure, is including his Dex Mod to his Twin Strike. It helps the party, because its his job to deal damage, but sometimes I feel gimped next to him.
#11
erk_
Mar 16, 2009 15:57:57 Bring it up at the table, but assume good faith. But my group is close-knit and don't see this as some kind of contest, so any cheating is almost certainly the result of shared misjudgement of the rules. I was not offended in SAGA when my friend pointed out to me that I should have had to spend money with my droid character to switch out feats and talents, I just stopped doing it and we erased the offending feats. The assumption that the cheating is not malicious goes a long way.
#12
pigknight
Mar 16, 2009 16:06:44 See my thread in What's a DM to Do.

It's a sure fire way to make him stop being an ***.
#13
roivas
Mar 18, 2009 1:27:02 How specifically is he breaking the rules or abusing them?
#14
mvincent
Mar 18, 2009 15:55:01 Since the rules can be so complex, everyone in our group is encouraged to assist with the rules. Anytime I see a rules error made by a fellow player, I say something like:
"I believe that strictly by the rules you couldn't do that. I wish you could, as it would help our side in this battle, but I want to be on the up and up. Here are some other options though..."

I do not fault a player that attempts to use the rules to his advantage, nor for wanting to interpret the rules so that it benefits him. After awhile of pointing out the rules (even when it is to your own detriment), people get used to playing by the rules, and genuinely want to know what the real rules are.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 legba11 Mar 11, 2009 14:03:36	Blah blah been asked a million times I'm sure. What do you all do when another player at your table is bending and twisting rules to their favor all of time? Often the DM doesn't notice, and I would hate to be the rules lawyer...
#2 rodolfomaxi Mar 11, 2009 14:17:20	What do i do? I tell him that he his use of the rules is incoherent after i have the right page of the PHB opened and already in everybody's view. What else is there to be done? This isn't being a lawyer at all..if your friend is honest and is making a mistake he'll learn (along with everybody else) and thus be grateful to you.
#3 lordcorwyyn Mar 11, 2009 14:21:03	Do you mean to the party's favour, or specifically and only the player's favour? And is he citing the rules correctly or using loopholes and grey areas to eke out an advantage? I tend to be OCD (I'm an accountant by training and an auditor by trade, so it was beaten into me at school and work), so I'm usually the guy saying "Hey, um, that should normally be X, not Y," not because I'm trying to pull anything, but because it bothers me when there's no consistency. The DMs I play with know this, and if it's "wrong" on purpose, they just say "It's special," and I know that there's a reason for things. Your guy may be doing something similar. If it's bothering you, just talk to him about it after a session. Usually a "Hey, what's up with this, why are you doing this all the time?" works. If it's bothering everybody else, use the same tactic, maybe over beer after a game in a relaxed setting.
#4 trei Mar 11, 2009 17:13:39	To avoid hurting feelings, take him aside before the next session, and tell him "Hey I noticed you haven't been doing this the right way. You're supposed to do it this way -- just wanted to let you know before the DM thinks you're cheating or something." You know, play it off like he misunderstood the rules to avoid putting blame on him. If he keeps it up, though, you've warned him. Your conscience is clear. Call him out in public. The only thing worse than cheating towards the DM is having the other players know about it too.
#5 Krusk Mar 11, 2009 19:31:08	Take the DM aside, and say "Hey I noticed the group is using this rule differently than the book. Is there a house rule we are using I missed? Here is how it has been used, and here is how I think it should be." If I am right about the rule, and the DM agrees, I ask they clarify it before the next session to everyone. If I am wrong, problem solved. If I notice it is still going on, I bring it up again after the next session "Hey I noticed one of the players is purposly misreading a rule/cheating, could you say something about it?" Most DMs I play with at this time make an announcement like this "I have noticed some cheating happening this game, if it keeps going on I will uninvite the player." Usually solves the problems.
#6 Novacat Mar 12, 2009 0:39:31	If you're willing to be the unpopular one for the sake of honesty, you can be the one to argue against him when he pulls up some BS. Even if he's trying to make arguments in the party's favor, if it's against the rules, and he's tricking the DM (or even if he's honestly wrong), you can take the high road and correct the situation. DMs that I play under regularly know me as the guy who will argue my opinion honestly, even if it hurts the party, so they respect my opinion more.
#7 Kerrus Mar 12, 2009 1:39:00	Yeah, I have that happen a lot too. Even as a player, I'd rather the DM know what I want to do so he can tell me if he's going to allow that (mostly through trying to use spells in innovative-but-not-munchy ways) rather then trying to sneak it by him like the rest of the party does. Sure, it probably impacts my chances at pulling that off, but at the same time, the DM doesn't get nearly as annoyed as he does when the Ranger decides his family is totally rich and he should deserve to get free money from them.
#8 valrora_the_powerful Mar 13, 2009 14:53:01	Be shur that he isn't simply useing the rules, nothing can **** of a player then being told by another player "YOU CANT DO THAT!". Perhaps the DM is simply a rules light DM? Can you please clarify a little bit more? Is he useing his skills in a creative way or is he min-maxing to hell? Can you please give us a solid example?
#9 Nived Mar 15, 2009 15:05:11	Fain ignorance and follow up with a dose of polite sarcasm. "I'm sorry, but where are you getting that bonus?" asked in a genuinely curious sort of voice. listen to his ******* explanation* Nod and act like you're following along "See that's what confuses me because on page XX it seems to say that this is the way it should be." Best case you have exposed his error in a way that he can back away from gracefully "Oh, guess I was wrong", and save some face. This is good for everyone avoids an argument and keeps the game going with the proper rule now in place.
#10 ciaran Mar 16, 2009 15:56:57	This bothers me too. I've misunderstood abilities before. Some just aren't easy to understand or you might inject knowledge of another ability and assume it runs the same way. But the reason it bothers me is that I try to run my character according to the rules, just as I expect the DM to do the same, and don't appreciate other players conveniently not doing so to make their character more powerful. We're playing 4E right now and our Ranger, I'm pretty sure, is including his Dex Mod to his Twin Strike. It helps the party, because its his job to deal damage, but sometimes I feel gimped next to him.
#11 erk_ Mar 16, 2009 15:57:57	Bring it up at the table, but assume good faith. But my group is close-knit and don't see this as some kind of contest, so any cheating is almost certainly the result of shared misjudgement of the rules. I was not offended in SAGA when my friend pointed out to me that I should have had to spend money with my droid character to switch out feats and talents, I just stopped doing it and we erased the offending feats. The assumption that the cheating is not malicious goes a long way.
#12 pigknight Mar 16, 2009 16:06:44	See my thread in What's a DM to Do. It's a sure fire way to make him stop being an ***.
#13 roivas Mar 18, 2009 1:27:02	How specifically is he breaking the rules or abusing them?
#14 mvincent Mar 18, 2009 15:55:01	Since the rules can be so complex, everyone in our group is encouraged to assist with the rules. Anytime I see a rules error made by a fellow player, I say something like: "I believe that strictly by the rules you couldn't do that. I wish you could, as it would help our side in this battle, but I want to be on the up and up. Here are some other options though..." I do not fault a player that attempts to use the rules to his advantage, nor for wanting to interpret the rules so that it benefits him. After awhile of pointing out the rules (even when it is to your own detriment), people get used to playing by the rules, and genuinely want to know what the real rules are.