Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Song_of_Eternity Apr 27, 2015 21:09:51	So in the group I have been playing with, the DM (first time DMing) tends to have us fight against higher level monsters.   Consider: (lvl 5) Ghouls with us at level 2, escalating to (lvl12) Centaur Hunters with us at level 4.   (Also no magic weapons/armor/wearables/intrinsic-bonuses, just wonderous items, but that's a different story.)   I was playing a ranged cleric, but given the way that monster defenses  scale 1 per level, I could only hit the centaurs' 25 reflex on a roll of 19 or 20.  (My attack was 4 wis+2 half-level.)  Which meant I wasn't buffing/etc., leading to me being pigeon-holed as a highly-valued healer  (since PC targeted healing didn't get dropped to only working 1 in 10 times).   We survived, of course, since this is 4E and PCs are incredibly sturdy, but it was very unfun.  Memorable as a struggle, which I think he took as a good thing, but not at all fun to play.  And us surviving once-per-day high-level encounters seems to only encourage him. (See going from level 5 monsters with us at level 2 to level 12 monsters a few weeks later with us at level 4.)   I've DMed a few 4E games, and I've delved deep into the mathematics while making a 4E-inspired tactical combat system.  I understand a lot of why  4E is built the way it is, number-wise, and a lot of the mechanics break down when base accuracy drops particularly low.   I could give a several page long explanation of the math behind it, but my main question is: How do I convince him to use the built-in options rather than high-level monsters... without being overbearing and telling him how to run his game?     But failing that, since I am not convinced people will change, what kind of character class (leader role) would be fun and effective to play against a few high-level monsters once per day?  (The party is a defender, a controller, and two strikers, and I am being pressured to play a leader, rather than, say,  a Slayer with +17 to hit on the charge and an Intimidate of +16.)
#2 baldhermit Apr 27, 2015 21:31:31	First of all, I would almost always recommend to use monsters of PC level -1 to PC level +3. Not only does this DM screw with accuracy, there are also many PC effects that go off on a kill, which now do not happen as often as they should.   Aside of that, you are being pressured into playing a certain role? I would seriously consider walking away at this point, OP, as your DM, or perhaps even your group, doesn't seem to have the same grasp on what a fun game can be as you do.   Now for the advice bit: warlord is the go to advice for leaders, and here it is not wrong either.
#3 warghoul Apr 28, 2015 0:33:49	If you and the players agree its unfun/unfair let the dm know. Plain and simple. If it continues you can as a player say my 'character' does not enguage in the encounter or leave the game.
#4 CCS Apr 28, 2015 9:38:14	I'd play the type of character I want. If someone was upset that that meant there was no leader type? Then ask them why they aren't playing one. As for the DM? If he was running an unfun game I'd just tell him about. If it remained unfun? Then I'd quit.
#5 Imaculata Apr 29, 2015 2:31:28	Sounds like your DM is doing it all wrong. If I want to build a challenging encounter for my players (I play 3.5 mind you), I often have a boss monster that is no more than 2 challenge ratings higher than the level of the players. He might be surrounded by a group of up to 4 lower level monsters, of a challenge rating equal to (or less) the player's level.   For example, lets say the players are level 10. I would have encounters such as:   Players level 10 -against- Enemy CR 14 = Tough fight. Even under focus fire, this enemy could seriously injure several party members. Provided he has no minions, or this would be way too hard. Players level 10 -against- Enemy CR 12 + 4-8 minions CR 10 = Hard fight. With this many minions, the players are outnumbered. If a player dies during this, do not be surprised. Players level 10 -against- Enemy CR 12 + 2-4 minions CR 10 = Moderate fight. The minions are easily dispatched, but distract the players enough to allow the boss to do some damage. A proper boss fight. Players level 10 -against- Enemy CR 12 = Easy fight. The enemy may wound one player, but everyone else gangs up on him.  Introduce other factors to complicate the battle, or this will be way too easy. Players level 10 -against- 4-6 Enemies CR 10 = Easy fight. These enemies are no match for the players. Good for a random encounter, where you want the players to feel powerful. Players level 10 -against- 4-6 Enemies CR 8 = Super easy fight. This is a fight that the players could sleep through. These enemies have no chance what so ever.   Of course you can always introduce additional circumstances to complicate the battle. Even enemies that are rediculously easy, could use nasty tactics to raise the challenge rating of the encounter.
#6 Song_of_Eternity Apr 29, 2015 14:10:43	baldhermit wrote:
#7 Zathris Apr 29, 2015 18:41:07	Song_of_Eternity wrote:
(Reply to #7) Song_of_Eternity	Zathris wrote:
#9 Imaculata Apr 30, 2015 2:56:11	Song_of_Eternity wrote:
#10 Zathris Apr 30, 2015 18:51:38	Song_of_Eternity wrote:
#11 Matyr Apr 30, 2015 19:20:13	Since I've been called out by name I might as well toss my $.02 into the ring.   Before I say anything though I want to mention that the #1 thing you should do as a player in this situation is try to make the DM see what he is doing is making the game less fun.  Also showing an overwhelming support for a different method of making things challenging is something you can/should use in a respectful manner to give them an alternative to what they are doing.  In short "Hey, you could try X instead of Y and here is a long list of what other people are saying about X" is often more helpful than "Y is bullshit, I hate you, you suck."   That out of the way, yes encounter design is something I am very very particular about.  Once you get to a certain level and add in a certain level of optimization (I've found for a decent op party this level is late heroic but can be as late as mid paragon), you really have to design your encounters around the PCs to make things a relevant challenge.  That doesn't mean that you have to do it in order to make things HARD.  You can make things unwinnable or cake if you want (you are the DM, you don't have to worry about those pesky 'rules' the players worry about).  The key here is about making a challenge a fun and tailored experience.   I'll give examples from the BI I ran and from my home game.  The last Battle Interactive I ran involved atleast 1 old char op regular and a couple of cheese-weasels.  I knew from the onset that, as level 20 high op characters, they were going to DEMOLISH these encounters.  I also learned after the first encounter that the way I was planning on challenging them was not going to be fun.  They didn't need super controlling enemies, that wasn't what they were enjoying. What they were enjoying was blowing things up and getting pasted in return.  The players revelled in the arms race.  The good DM looks at that, cracks their knuckles, and says "ok, next encounter lets make this really really rough" and keeps scaling it up until the PCs are limping away after being auto-crit 4 times after you banish their leader and dominate their charger.  The key is to make the challenge hard but not trivialise what they are enjoying.  Let them explode things but always have a wave 2, things that explode on death, things that might need to be killed in a specific order or things that are annoying to pin down but once you get them they turn to red mist.  Then hit them where it hurts.  A lot of them were pretty squishy so I turned the glass cannons on them, tossed out a dominate or three and worked from there.     The home game is the exact opposite.  They have 3 defenders, a pacifist, a perma-invisible ranged ranger and a really hard to kill charger.  If I scale up glass cannons to hurt them its going to look goofy.  The players are level 22 and I can routinely do 400 points of damage to a character in 2-3 rounds and expect them to shrug it off without so much as a hiccup.  For them it is all about the alternative win and lose.  There is a plot-nuke about to explode, skill challenge while holding stuff off to disarm it.  They built themselves to be hard to kill, so you can give them a "300"-esque scenario or a "do as much damage as you can before being overwhelmed" scenario and they will love it.  Every now and again you have to alpha-strike someone really hard in the nuts to remind them they aren't completely immortal, but other than that you have to let them enjoy what they have made and tailor the challenge to them.   All that being said, if you are low level, he should just look up some normal encounters (Year 4+ LFR mods) and see what the combat looks like in those.  My go-to is SPEC 5-1 for low heroic because it can be crazy lethal if you DM is playing it like he wants someone to reroll.  If your party can glass that mod playing up (IE run the mod as if you were 6 as level 4-5 players) the DM might not have the tactical knowledge he needs to truly challenge the group.  In which case you are either left with the option of leaving, showing that DM how to run a combat, or coming to terms with the fact that solid tactical combat might not be the thing to look for in his/her game.
(Reply to #10) Song_of_Eternity	Zathris wrote:
#13 Matyr May 04, 2015 13:12:46	Song_of_Eternity wrote: