Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 priwen Jul 26, 2009 9:27:24	I recently started playing a 4.0 campaign with some friends of mine who are kind of new to the whole thing. I'm usually a big damage dealer, but this time I decided to go totally opposite and be an Inspiring Warlord (Dragonborn) so I would be able to help everyone IC and OOC. I have a Warforged Barbarian and a Warforged Warden, a Half-Orc Melee Ranger and an Elf Ranged Ranger, and a Deva Invoker. It's kind of a big Group, and most of them are new except for the Barbarian. Here's the Problem: It took us 3 hours to finish two, 2 monster encounters. It was our second session, but the first one was really long and they kept on repeating the same questions. It's like they didn't understand their characters at all. The Elf Ranger is doing well, he just needs to RP more, as do most all of them. The Warden- He has no idea how to play his class, he doesn't mark much at all. Constantly asks the same things over and over again during his turn or at times where the question is totally irrelevant and unimportant. He does do an OK Job of RPing though. The Barbarian- He's played a little less than me. He understands his character a little better than the others, but he doesn't take the game seriously at all. I mean, it's a game but he keeps on saying stuff acting like it's in character, that his character would never say, trying to be funny OOC. He repeats himself if we try to ignore it and starts to get things off track. The Half-Orc- Has no idea wtf she's doing. Period. Asks exactly what she should do every time, and can't even add up her attack and damage on her own. Doesn't RP at all, but it's a half-orc so I don't really care. Elf Ranger- He's the only one that's doing great. Like I said, he needs to get into RPing more since he's got the most perception and has to warn us of stuff IC, but he's improving in that even. Deva Invoker- You know how every group has an instigator? Well yeah, this guy's it and everyone barely likes him IRL. He specifically causes trouble with his character, and when I try to talk to NPC's and do my Charisma thing, he constantly tries to interrupt me. He Interrupts people while their talking and the game to ask common sensical questions. It all adds up, and the game starts going slow, everyone starts losing interest and it goes slower. I've explained everything I can during sessions and outside of sessions, with help from the DM who feels just about the same way as me. I think I'm going to talk to everyone about it tomorrow, any advice? Maybe having everyone go over their characters and stuff one more time before our next session and having them all ask questions about things they don't understand?
#2 DevoDog Jul 26, 2009 9:46:12	I don't think that 3 hours for 2 combat encounters is out of the ordinary for a new group in 4e. That sounds about right to me. My opinion is that the designers expect combat encounters to take approximately 1 hour for a group of 5 players. Obviously, it should be shorter for less than 5 players and longer for 6 or more. One thing that I'm seeing (IHMO) is that the players are running classes/races that are a bit trickier to play than the classes/races from the PHB. While the classes/races from non-PHB material don't require any kind of advanced degrees, I think that the PHB classes/races are much more straightforward. It's much easier to grasp the concept (and tactics) of a Fighter than it is a Warden, for example. That could be part of the issue. While a lot of people bad-mouth Keep of the Shadowfell for its limited role-playing, repetitive encounters, and encounters that don't make a lot of sense, I think it accomplishes (what I perceive to be) it's goal: to teach players the mechanics of 4e. I, personally, think its a good introductory adventure for 4e in that regards.
#3 priwen Jul 26, 2009 9:56:20	Yeah, but it was only 2 creatures each time. Maybe it's not the time as much as the different repetitive questions and dumb "RPing" that's bothering me I guess. I don't mind them taking a little while to understand the intricacies of their characters really, I just think it's the fact that they're not focusing on that at all.
#4 pluisjen Jul 26, 2009 10:12:50	It doesn't matter if there are 2 or 20 monsters; it's the player's turns that take up all that time ;) Also, I must say that it's indeed probably because they are new. My group had 3 players, but we are all new and our first few encounters took almost 2 hours as well (that's with half the size of your group) It gets better after a while, assuming your players want to learn how to play. Just keep helping them, reminding them, etc. Also, what really helped for my GF, was to write a long list of all attacks, completely pre-calculated. When she had that over her normal character sheet, she finished up her turn in half the time, ánd she really started to get into the game.
#5 graxith Jul 26, 2009 10:35:07	Two things really. Number one is that they're new, that's not really a problem becuase it can be grown out of, it'll just take some time. Number two is, myabe they don't have the same style as you, not everybody can play a convincing character and even if they have the ability it'll take time to adapt to it. Players getting sidetracked will go down as they get more experiance with the game and especially if they're having an enjoyable one. [if they're having trouble understanding it and people are just telling them what to do without explaining it, which I'm not saying is what you're doing, they're going to not have a good time.] Take a little bit of time with each person and work with what they're having trouble for. Don't scold them as that'll just get the whole party against you but help them out. If they're still not getting it after a long time then come back to the forums and say what they're having trouble with.
#6 humanmind Jul 26, 2009 16:55:16	It gets better after a while, assuming your players want to learn how to play. Are you sure your friends want to play? I've had friends that I thought would enjoy D&D as they play other games like magic: the gathering. However they show little interest when we get started and don't seem to pick up the rules. Make sure your friends want to play. If they do, do they have access to the PHB? If they hadn't had the chance to read the rules then of course they will have difficulty understanding them. photo copy their classes and the combat chapter and they will have a greater understanding of what to do in an encounter. Or even better if you and your DM could lend your books to the other players for a day or two so they can read anything they are interested in. Hope this helps.
#7 turbowombat Jul 26, 2009 17:49:51	3 things from my perspective (I DM a lot and have introduced D&D to many many friends and aquaintances) 1.) Low RP isn't neccesarily a bad thing, especially when players are new. Heck, I have a guy who's played as long as I have that goes multiple sessions without saying a single word IC. But he loves D&D, posts on forums and enjoys the campaigns I run even though they're story heavy. It's ultimately about having fun. As long as my aforementioned friend isn't making the game less fun for anyone else, and is enjoying his power-gamer style, there's nothing wrong here. (although in your defense, there was that one time a friend and i sat around talking IC for nearly 10 minutes about "man wouldn't it be awesome if we just had a ranger with keen senses and tracking skill to track down that fleeing theif?" "Yeah that would be awesome" before our ranger finally got the hint) 2.) INDEX CARDS. If you and your DM have some time and really want to make this a good experience for the new players, sit down and print out some cards detailing rules information and all math preworked on cards as well as a page number for reference of any key word. Like if a power grabs or slides a target, put in parenthesis the page for forced movement or advanced combat maneuvers so that they can quickly check the PHB rather than asking questions. I've even taken to playing with the DM screen flipped around since the players often don't know all the status effects on PHB 255. Also index cards for Initiative for the DM listing everyone's defenses would help with combat speed if you don't already so that. And have people roll attack and damage dice at the same time. 3.) Class structure is generally fairly straight forward: to teach your friend about playing warden you could try something my friends did when they were adjusting to 4th ed and constantly forgot to do things like mark or assign quarry/curse. They made a series of comedic flow charts and stapled them over their character sheets. The general structure went something like this: Is it marked? no: mark it. yes: do you have a spare minor action ? yes: mark it again just to be sure. Did it just hit something other than you? no: that's cause you marked it! yes: mark it harder! etc etc
#8 johnnyslick Jul 26, 2009 21:43:52	It doesn't matter if there are 2 or 20 monsters; it's the player's turns that take up all that time ;) Also, I must say that it's indeed probably because they are new. My group had 3 players, but we are all new and our first few encounters took almost 2 hours as well (that's with half the size of your group) It gets better after a while, assuming your players want to learn how to play. Just keep helping them, reminding them, etc. Also, what really helped for my GF, was to write a long list of all attacks, completely pre-calculated. When she had that over her normal character sheet, she finished up her turn in half the time, ánd she really started to get into the game. The Character Builder will do all of this for you. In fact, you can build characters through level 3 without even subscribing to DDI. It makes things a *lot* easier for folks who have issues adding everything up, and might even help more advanced players a little with how game mechanics work. Also, you can print out your character, which will save a MASSIVE amount of time on the most tedious aspect of DnD: character creation (especially if you're not starting at 1st level). Directly to the OP... it's a group of people new to DnD. This happens, especially in 4E with all the new stuff to do. My own group took... 5 hours to handle its first 2 encounters if memory serves (and one skill challenge). The second one was a fairly large fight with a couple ogres and a big group of humans but on the other hand everyone in my group was very, very experienced with 3.5. It'll get better (especially if you download the Character Builder).