I will admit that I may have ran my campaign a little off the books but we still had fun...
the problem is with this DM we are poor...
I'm talking really poor...
Beggars/Homeless are giving us money poor...
sure we are 4th level and the average amount of treasure of each party member is 6 copper pieces! and the quest that he gives us basically only pay for food, and not even that...since I have a high endurance I have to make checks against starvation so that the others can survive on what little food we can afford, then I can eat after like 3 days of just water...
and before you ask yes we got magic items but no one can afford them, even the non magic items no one can afford, I cant even sell my light shield because no one has 1 gold to pay for it, they offer 1 silver and that basically bankrupts the business we sold it to and then no one wants to do business with us.
I told him (the DM) that we should get gold along with the treasure but so far he says that we should wait and we will start getting gold later because we are dealing with poorer people and they cant afford to pay you anything decent, they can barely feed themselves...
WHAT AM I SUPPOSE TO DO?
Wait it out and hope he starts giving out more money, or just lead the revolt and start playing my game again?
Anyway, do the reasonable thing first. Talk to your DM, tell him scrounging for food doesn't feel very heroic, and you're not having that much fun. Or, in-game, leave! Everywhere can't be as poor as where you are, and you're adventurers. Strike out for a real, large city (or at least town) where people actually exist above the barter system. Then, once fortified with plenty of food and fat coin purses, return to the little hovel where you started and burn it to the ground. :D (NOTE: Your alignment may vary.)
I wouldn't go with the revolution option until you'd exhausted everything else and you still weren't having fun. But if you've sought compromise and peaceful resolution, and the players still aren't having fun, then the DM isn't doing his job -- out with him!
But really? A single silver piece bankrupts a business? Was it a little kid with a lemonade stand? I know 4e doesn't try to pretend it has a realistic economy, but this is ridiculous. Maybe you guys should stick around and teach the people how to farm. Then make yourselves the town counsel or something. Once your town becomes self-sufficient, start exporting to other towns. Repeat the previous steps until you are rulers of a new Empire.
First, let at least one PC starve to death. Then, in desperation, eat that PC.
Afterwards, make a habit of killing the first living thing you see whenever you're hungry, and try to gather a group of people around you with like-minded ideals (Does 4e still have the Leadership feat?). You and your roving band of cannibals can be just like those gangs in Cormac McArthy's The Road.
Keep doing this until your DM wises up by giving you more money OR by starting a new game OR by making it clear that your game was actually set in a post-apocalyptic world the whole time and your behavior is perfectly acceptable.
On the bright side, at least you're getting to use Endurance - my Warlord took Endurance at 1st level, still hasn't used it at 7th.
It sounds like you DM has something planned and a reason for playing this way, he probably has some long term pay-off designed. However it is hard to say weather or not it will be worth it in the end. I've played in many campaigns (not necessarily D&D) where money was very tight, but never anything near this level of desperate. Being strapped for cash can be challenging - but I'll admit begging for food doesn't sound like much fun to me. You can talk to your DM or you can try to handle this in character.
You stated that you and your group were level 4ish with appropriate magical items - that actually represents at least a decent amount of in-world power. As others have said earlier, take that power and use it to make a place for your characters. Next time some peasant offers you 3 copper to risk your life in a dangerous fight, refuse. Instead go and make your own fortune.
You could go into the wilderness and forage or hunt - again at level 4 you should be able tough enough to survive. You could also go raid bandit or monster camps - even goblins gotta eat and surely
Or you could seek out the upper classes and see if they are willing to pay more for your combat prowess. *Somebody* has got to have to some resources. If they turn you away you could always play Robin Hood; if the area is that desperately poor, somebody isn't sharing - take upon yourself to equalize things.
Finally, if all else fails move to another area with better resources.
If you try ideas like this and the DM shuts you down at every turn, then I would say its time to sit down and have a talk. I don't like to call railroading at the drop of a hat, but a group of level 4 pcs should have the skill and wits to make *something* of themselves. If you are blocked from using any good ideas a friendly and non-combative chat with your DM might be required.
Edit: Praetor the golden's idea sounds strangely cool - maybe I've been playing too much fallout 3 though. . .
That's your problem.
I would bet that the dm didn't see anything wrong with the campaign. He likely was trying to put a good face on his campaign design. He wouldn't be the first dm to have what he thought was a splendid campaign concept only to have players point out some less than thrilling details. To appear as if this was all in the plan and it was all a part of the larger story so as not to appear quite so blind to the plight of the players.
I think Prators suggestions certainly should turn the tables on the dm. If everyone is desperately trying to survive it certainly wouldn't be unheard of for people to turn to cannabilism. I'm sure the dm won't be keen on it but really when you try and crush the heroism out of your pcs what can you expect.
I guess I was not clear I have been telling him for the last 6 sessions that he is being a fugal *Bleep* (in a much nicer way) but he says that we cant get to places that have more money. there is no money here so... I've talked to him, he basically told me that we are actually getting more than he wanted to since he doesn't want us to starve; since he though one of us would have the Nature skill.
I'm basically going to say we have to quit adventuring because its not worth it and bore the DM to death like he has been doing to the players.
and if that does not work, we start killing every small village and take all the food money and women we want and screw his game plans, we will move on to cities and then metropolises and take over the world.
Clearly you have to trade your copper pieces for bottlecaps.
That's your problem.
thanks for reminding me I have a "Fat-Man" and 50 Mini-Nukes that will make it easier getting radioactive meat and for taking over cities of super-mutants ... is there a potion of "Rad-Away"
ok, I could not resist the Fallout 3 reference. sorry
thanks for reminding me I have a "Fat-Man" and 50 Mini-Nukes that will make it easier getting radioactive meat and for taking over cities of super-mutants ... is there a potion of "Rad-Away"
ok, I could not resist the Fallout 3 reference. sorry
Fallout 3 (and 1 and 2) rules!
Issue 1: Do all the other players feel as you do? If so, this is a problem. See if you can get the DM to agree to at least cut out the starvation rules. If he will not, threaten to (or just do) start killing and eating peasants.
Issue 2: Someone, I have no idea who, is approaching the RPG world in a very linear sense. "NPC gives quest, heroes accomplish quest, heroes get present". Since the present is not enough for you to live by, this is clearly not working out. It may be that the DM is trying to suggest to you guys that asking dirt-poor villagers for jobs is not the best way to be adventurers, but does not want to railroad you into a new course of action. Someone above me suggested you try to be Robin Hoods. In a similar vein, why not stop adventuring for a minute and try to find out why these guys are so poor. Do they live entirely off farming? If so, why is food so expensive? You should be getting your bellies filled just for working for them. If someone is taxing them to take their cash and drive up food values, then perhaps what the campaign needs is a group of Peasant Heroes. Perhaps you should be raiding the taxman, and rallying the villagers. Or perhaps there is something deeper going on here.
If this was my game, I'd be using the poverty as a lure to try to get you to investigate deeper. Try reading more into the DM's story than just "He wants us to be poor because he enjoys making us roll Endurance checks vs. starvation".
thanks for all the responses.
I guess I was not clear I have been telling him for the last 6 sessions that he is being a fugal *Bleep* (in a much nicer way) but he says that we cant get to places that have more money. there is no money here so... I've talked to him, he basically told me that we are actually getting more than he wanted to since he doesn't want us to starve; since he though one of us would have the Nature skill.
So why don't one of you learn the nature skill asap?
Is it just me, or does this sound like a possible plot hook to anybody else? PCs begin as dirt poor pesents in a blighted area. In order to merely survive they're forced to adventure. In the process, they become heroes & legends....
So why don't one of you learn the nature skill asap?
Is it just me, or does this sound like a possible plot hook to anybody else? PCs begin as dirt poor pesents in a blighted area. In order to merely survive they're forced to adventure. In the process, they become heroes & legends....
How'll I put this ... it does sound like a plot hook, but it doesn't sound like a hook in a game I, personally, would be interested in. Vaguely reminiscent of post-apocalyptic games, and I don't care for those.
But seriously, this is a lame story element unless you really want it.
Perhaps some more in depth information would be a good course of action. What little we have now is not enough to make any informed critque of what's going on.
I'm shocked at the amount of people who think adventurers should be rolling in money.
You may jump for any gold within the game later on. Just a thought.
I think it's time you guys started investigating why you're so poor. And learn the nature skill! Retrain if you have to!
Odds are once you find out why everyone's so poor, you won't be too far from finding a stash of real treasure (and you should probably give some of it to your local peasantry if it's enough to make ends meet). Who knows, it might be big enough to make up for the lack of treasure from the previous encounters.
If it's not a dethrone-the-tyrant themed campaign, then it's probably a post-apocalyptic survival themed campaign. In which case there's won't be much gold and you'll have to rely on nature checks and your class abilities instead of equipment.
One question: is the DM throwing reasonable enemies at you, i.e. is he adjusting the difficulty of the encounters to account for the lack of equipment?
Though I think the DM has something in mind, the refusal to allow the players to get somewhere with money is the kicker. This behavior moves it out of the realm of a DM doing his job, and into the realm of CHOO-CHOO gaming (errmmmm RAILROADING). I would give him one last chance to rectify after informing him that he has stepped on the railroad tracks, and if he continues to herd you, jump off the train.
Huhwhat??? Railroading is not "not giving the PCs the rewards they want", it's "forcing the PCs down a specific path". If the DM is forcing the players to take specific nonpaying jobs and shooting down any alternate paths they propose, that is railroading, for sure. Designing a world in which the peasants are poor and can't feed, clothe, and make wealthy the PC adventurers is not railroading in and of itself. Remember, the DM is keeping them stocked in magic gear, which means these guys are appropriately equipped for their level. DMs are not obligated to give their PCs specific treasure - including money - lest they be railroaders.
So why don't one of you learn the nature skill asap?
Is it just me, or does this sound like a possible plot hook to anybody else? PCs begin as dirt poor pesents in a blighted area. In order to merely survive they're forced to adventure. In the process, they become heroes & legends....
I was thinking this too but if the players hate this style of play well the DM is wrong. The DM must know what type of player he/she is dealing with then adapt the game to what they want (for the most part). If people start complaining the DM should either adapt/alter the game or wrap it up and find a group that would like that type of game. The game should be fun for the DM and players, not just the DM.
The PCs sound like they wish to move to an area that has more money and the DM sounds like he is not allowin g this so it is very Railroadish in that regard. These guys are not asking for Vorpal Swords, they just want enough money so their ribs stop showing.
The PCs sound like they wish to move to an area that has more money and the DM sounds like he is not allowin g this so it is very Railroadish in that regard. These guys are not asking for Vorpal Swords, they just want enough money so their ribs stop showing.
I'd be curious to find out how, exactly, he is not allowing the players to leave. Does he tell them it's too dangerous and nothing else? Find out why it's too dangerous. Does he flat-out tell them they can't leave? Start walking and see what he does. You'll either find out the real reason you can't go, or you'll find out that your DM sucks. Either way, you win.
- It all depends on the time period really. But a few things do hold true.
- Largely, food was plentiful in good years, scarce in bad. Not always one way or the other. If there was a "Standard" it was probably right down the middle. Most seasons you could likely get a crop that would make the winter survivable.
- Craftsman stationary/merchants, not so much: Merchants often developed caravans (whether a one man show with cart and horse, or dozens of carts, guards, etc.) they traveled from town to town, purchased goods from craftsmen, sold their goods to the people, and went on their way.
- Peasants POOR/Merchants, not so much: To a peasant, a silver piece was a good couple months wage (maybe even a year) during some time periods. Often, peasants lived by what they could grow, scavenge, etc. However, merchants became the middle class (and nobles hated them for it) and, much like the middle class of today, they were largely the biggest contribution to the economy there was.
- Anyway, in a campaign like this you should all have "Nature" as a free skill, OR just be allowed Foraging as a free ability. The reason is because D&D is explicitly NOT medieval Europe (or anywhere for that matter)
- While worldly travellers (like adventurers would be) would PROBABLY speak two languages, writing even one (like you can in D&D) would be relegated to the clergy (many, perhaps most, nobles could not read and write especially in early medieval Europe).
- D&D assumes a world of trained specialists. Much like our modern day. Today we have Scientist (Wizard), Soldier (Warrior) etc. but in the past.. the peasant was Farmer, Warrior, All Round Servant. Nobles were Diplomat, General, Sportsman, Poet, Lover, etc. etc. People in other time periods were no where near as narrow ("focused") as we are today.. in fact, they were far more capable in terms of what it means to actually "survive" at life.
- I am ALL for his idea of a campaign and I'd likely really enjoy it. For me to get into a "Fantasy" world.. I don't want "Swords in the City" most of the time. That is just preference, not a statement of what is better.
However, for this campaign to work, it still needs to be fun to its players, and he needs to make certain allowances so that his players aren't feeling like victims of their environment ALL the time.
With preparation, they should be able to cope with problems like food, shelter, clothing, etc. Even if, as a player, I said.. "I perform odd jobs around town to scrounge for some extra coin." I think that's fine to ask your players to do something like that.. however:
1) Provide Plot Hooks to these events occasionally. Make the action have meaning to the player (even if to the PC, it would be tedious "survive" work).
2) Gloss over it. If a PC states "I perform odd jobs..." then I would suggest the DM should say "Okay, after a back breaking day of work, you have managed to scrounge X copper, silver, whatever." Don't drag the player through the event
I'd have talk with your DM stating that there is dissatisfaction, and, if there is something you as PCs aren't thinking of that he, as the DM, was hoping you'de hook into.. have him discuss that with you. Sometimes, things seem so obvious to a DM and he can't wait for the PCs to have the lightbulb moment and everyone can be as excited as he is AND the players feel like they solved a problem.
Good luck.
Huhwhat??? Railroading is not "not giving the PCs the rewards they want", it's "forcing the PCs down a specific path". If the DM is forcing the players to take specific nonpaying jobs and shooting down any alternate paths they propose, that is railroading, for sure. Designing a world in which the peasants are poor and can't feed, clothe, and make wealthy the PC adventurers is not railroading in and of itself. Remember, the DM is keeping them stocked in magic gear, which means these guys are appropriately equipped for their level. DMs are not obligated to give their PCs specific treasure - including money - lest they be railroaders.
You clearly misunderstood what I was saying or I misinterpreted what the OP has posted. In the OP's latest post it seems as if the DM won't let them leave the area to seek riches elsewhere, because "they can't get there". That is essentially railroading. His players are trying to do other things i.e. leave, but are getting shot down, how is that not railroading. The only road he is leaving them outside of some sort of poverty storyline (which the players are clearly not into), is to go down the path of extreme violence.
They can't leave because they don't have enough food to get anywhere? Fine butcher the village that should give you enough salted long pork to get anywhere. When players start having to do this kind of stuff to get a story going in a direction they want, not because they want to do these things, but because they are left with no reasonable option, yeah sorry that is RAILROADING.
This could be interesting, have the whole party take Vow of Poverty.
sorry this is a 4th ed campaign, No vow of poverty here
right now as it stands he (the DM) is a major "Conductor"
all he has been doing is "Railroading" us, if i understand the term. a level 25+ warlock (I say 25+ because he used a encounter power around there) is forcing us to do his bidding and we cant leave because he can Scry on us at any given time and just teleport to us and then kill us with a simple daily power as he has shown with a NPC who disobeyed.
the DM has been promising us gold for about 4 sessions but he says you did not get to the point in the story yet.
the male players (are group is 4 guys and 2 girls, In and out of game) are getting mad at the lack of money and food; the female players are just enjoying sins of the flesh to take their minds off of it, but they are starting to get annoyed with the lack of money.
he might have a great story planed out but so far after 24 hours of total gaming time (out of game, in game its been a month) we are poor hungry and can leave unless the warlock sends us somewhere to do something where he pays us in things that beggars would turn down because they have higher standards.
OK I think I got to alot of the questions answered but I might have missed some, I did not expect to get this many responses
PS: "sins of the flesh"? You play with some interesting girls...
A good way to end it would be as a group decide to attack the warlock. Everyone dies? well atleast the pain of starvation is over.
PS: "sins of the flesh"? You play with some interesting girls...
yeah too bad they are all taken.
I'm surprised that anyone knows what "sins of the flesh" means...
I can't say what I really mean since I will probably get hit over the head by a ORC.
OHH and this is for everyone that replied
thanks for your input guys, "Operation: Tastes Like Chicken" Starts Saturday
yeah too bad they are all taken.
Aah, so it is like when I play with my fiancee. Except that instead of sins of the flesh, she does the incredibly adorable characters. her next one is an ewok sniper.
thanks for your input guys, "Operation: Tastes Like Chicken" Starts Saturday
DUDE you have to let us know how that turns out.
I was thinking this too but if the players hate this style of play well the DM is wrong. The DM must know what type of player he/she is dealing with then adapt the game to what they want (for the most part). If people start complaining the DM should either adapt/alter the game or wrap it up and find a group that would like that type of game. The game should be fun for the DM and players, not just the DM.
The PCs sound like they wish to move to an area that has more money and the DM sounds like he is not allowin g this so it is very Railroadish in that regard. These guys are not asking for Vorpal Swords, they just want enough money so their ribs stop showing.
And this is why I'll never play in Dark Sun.
Anywho.. yeah, this isn't a "Theme" for a campaign. You're just his puppets. Definately not cool. At least God has the decency not to reveal the strings.
I'd just tell the DM "This is what I am doing." If it gets you killed, then so be it.
Note: I am VERY much for Players "going along" with things the DM has planned. I think that is the LEAST they can do since their job of making one self-important character is so easy.
HOWEVER, this doesn't sound like it has anything to do with "Ahh, clearly the DM wants us to explore the scary caverns. We probably should, because it was planned and all."
It sounds like a linear computer game.
((SPOILER FOR THE GAME: BIOSHOCK))
Note 2: Interesting though that when a game, like Bioshock, forces you down a path and tells you that you were little more than a slave.. the story gets accolades for being one of the best FPS in recent history.
I'm curious to find out what makes the "I'm a slave." game acceptable.
1. Stop playing with this guy!
2. Stop asking people to pay you with money if you don't think they'll have enough to make it worth your time. Start DEMANDING food in lieu of pay, and refuse to work for less than an ENTIRE loaf of bread.
3. As I said before, you can turn your Adventuring Party into a Headhunting Party.
4. As covertly as possible, start looking into possible ways to kill the warlock, or at least to escape his scrying. Who knows, maybe the DM is actually trying to encourage you to do that...
thanks for your input guys, "Operation: Tastes Like Chicken" Starts Saturday
Oops, I posted before I saw this... Hmmm. Well, thanks for taking my suggestion. I too, wonder how it will work out.
thanks for your input guys, "Operation: Tastes Like Chicken" Starts Saturday
LOLLOS. Remember liver, fava beans, and a fine chianti. Of course considering your situation fava beans, and a chianti, much less a fine one will require an old school wish spell.
Maybe once you gain some more powerful magic items then you could try to take the warlock on even if it meant suicide. Heck it might be better to just die and start your own campaign.
a new DM decided to take over so I could have a break, so I finally got to feel how it is to play 4th ed rather than run it...
Ah, the old "I want to play, but...
" I feel for ya, man. Either find some fun within the game (to the point of wrecking it, if need be) or quit.How does this relate to Dark Sun? I don't know anything about that setting.
Well from what i know about dark sun... which is rather little... dying of dehydration was a real possibility. A desert you know?
((SPOILER FOR THE GAME: BIOSHOCK))
Note 2: Interesting though that when a game, like Bioshock, forces you down a path and tells you that you were little more than a slave.. the story gets accolades for being one of the best FPS in recent history.
I'm curious to find out what makes the "I'm a slave." game acceptable.
Most people have difficulty equating brainwashing to slavery. Mostly because of all the movies where slaves(of any kind or color) are either prideful people waiting for a chance to break free or timid souls that flash puppy eyes at the camera from under dirt covered faces.
Brainwash victims always seem to be portrayed as drug addicts, people who don't understand that something is wrong, choose to ignore the signs of something being wrong, or are perfectly aware that something is wrong but lack the willpower to do anything about it.
That said:
GO TEAM HANNIBAL LECTOR!!!
This sounds more llike a bunch of players pouting because they are not getting what they 'feel' they deserve.
Railroading? Really? I see this all over these forums all the time. Mostly by people not getting what they want. " Oh noes my Dm says that I can't have/do X because of Y", "The Dm is just railroading you Dude. Next time you play you should totally mess up the campaign to prove to that Railraoding DM that the game shouldn't be played that way. That'll learn him good"
I have yet to see a post in here that gives enough information to ever be confident in saying a Dm is railroading.
It has gotten to the point where someone can just post,"My Dm has blonde hair, but I prefer Dms with red hair" and we will get 12 posts of "That Dm is totally railroading you, doesn't he realize that you prefer red headed Dms, how unfair to his group. You should just quit his game, but not before trashing his game".
Perhaps what the Op should have done is sit down as a whole group and write up a Expectation of Play manifesto with the Dm. Then both, players and Dm, would know what the other wants to get out of a game session/adventure/campaign.
The Op has yet to expound upon any of the sessions. Has not said anything about the sessions, other than that they are not geting money. We have no idea of anything at all regarding the game. How can any of us make any comments with no information.
What can anybody do with this:
7
Now what should I do with that?
I find it interesting that the Op's group can't function without vast amounts of ready cash, when he already said that the townsfolk have no money either.
I'm still shocked by the number of posts telling the OP to totally trash a game over because out of 6 people playing not one of them has Nature as a skill.
[some stuff that blatantly shows he didn't read the OP's last post on the first page]
7
Now what should I do with that?
I find it interesting that the Op's group can't function without vast amounts of ready cash, when he already said that the townsfolk have no money either.
It's called the Immortal NPC Fallacy, the DM isn't spending all night rolling endurance to see if some no-name peasants starve to death, because he doesn't care and probably didn't think about a reason as to how an entire community could survive if they are all that poor.
I don't think you even read the first post. "...OP's group can't function without vast amounts of ready cash..." In the first post the OP states that he is starving(as in rolling to see if he dies) so that less tough members of the party can eat.
[edit]
I decided to quote the OP's post that explains why it is railroading:
sorry for taking so long to get to you guys, I had to sleep.
right now as it stands he (the DM) is a major "Conductor"
all he has been doing is "Railroading" us, if i understand the term. a level 25+ warlock (I say 25+ because he used a encounter power around there) is forcing us to do his bidding and we cant leave because he can Scry on us at any given time and just teleport to us and then kill us with a simple daily power as he has shown with a NPC who disobeyed.
the DM has been promising us gold for about 4 sessions but he says you did not get to the point in the story yet.
the male players (are group is 4 guys and 2 girls, In and out of game) are getting mad at the lack of money and food; the female players are just enjoying sins of the flesh to take their minds off of it, but they are starting to get annoyed with the lack of money.
he might have a great story planed out but so far after 24 hours of total gaming time (out of game, in game its been a month) we are poor hungry and can leave unless the warlock sends us somewhere to do something where he pays us in things that beggars would turn down because they have higher standards.
OK I think I got to alot of the questions answered but I might have missed some, I did not expect to get this many responses
It's called the Immortal NPC Fallacy, the DM isn't spending all night rolling endurance to see if some no-name peasants starve to death, because he doesn't care and probably didn't think about a reason as to how an entire community could survive if they are all that poor.
Really? And you know this to be true from what? The vague references that the Op has written so far?
I don't think you even read the first post. "...OP's group can't function without vast amounts of ready cash..." In the first post the OP states that he is starving(as in rolling to see if he dies) so that less tough members of the party can eat.
Oh but I did read all the posts by the OP.
"the male players (are group is 4 guys and 2 girls, In and out of game) are getting mad at the lack of money and food; the female players are just enjoying sins of the flesh to take their minds off of it, but they are starting to get annoyed with the lack of money."
Is it a Dm's fault if the players don't have a particular skill?
Gee, what is more railroady, letting the players pick their skills(hoping they will be smart enough to cover as many as possible) or forcing them to have certain ones?
[edit]
I decided to quote the OP's post that explains why it is railroading:
I see no railroading there.
I see plenty of opportunities for the players, yet it seems from what the OP has written so far, that the only thing the players are doing is whining about not getting their money.
If I was forced to make an educated guess of what is going on it would be:
I will admit that I may have ran my campaign a little off the books but we still had fun...Wait it out and hope he starts giving out more money, or just lead the revolt and start playing my game again?
That the Op ran a Monty Haul like game and was expecting similar treatment from the new Dm, but the new Dm went in a different direction and the Op is not happy about that.
The Op has yet to expound upon any of the sessions. Has not said anything about the sessions, other than that they are not geting money. We have no idea of anything at all regarding the game. How can any of us make any comments with no information.
What can anybody do with this:
7
Now what should I do with that?
I find it interesting that the Op's group can't function without vast amounts of ready cash, when he already said that the townsfolk have no money either.
The problem does not seem to be because of the lack of gold and food which to me seem like it would make an interesting world. The problems arise from this uber warlock that is forcing them on quests with absolutley no control. Something needs to be done about the railroading with the use of the NPC not the poor and meager enviroment.
thanks for your input guys, "Operation: Tastes Like Chicken" Starts Saturday
Keep us posted.
I'd also go crazy if I were you. Worse that can happen is that he summon his uber pet warlock npc and kill you guys off.
The problem does not seem to be because of the lack of gold and food which to me seem like it would make an interesting world. The problems arise from this uber warlock that is forcing them on quests with absolutley no control. Something needs to be done about the railroading with the use of the NPC not the poor and meager enviroment.
Well I question the Op's post about a lvl 25 encounter power....lvl 25 is dailies, not encounters and of those dailies only one would have any 'effect' that isn't like numerous lower leveled powers, Tartarean Tomb.
Though I do find it strange the people have no problems with players 'railroading' the NPCs into giving them what the players want(typically cash and/or magic items), but when the shoe is on the other foot, the cries of railroading are loud.
The Players have magic items, it is not like they are level 4 all wearing cloth armor and wielding daggers.
Keep us posted.
I'd also go crazy if I were you. Worse that can happen is that he summon his uber pet warlock npc and kill you guys off.
Yeah, cuz it's fun to completely destroy a game that someone has put time into, instead of sitting down as a group and talking about the issues.
He spoke to his DM. His DM told him they couldn't get away from the poverty until they reached a certain point (i.e. Until he lets them). He's also use the 'Super-NPC of Doom!' to force his player to do stuff. That's grade A bad DMing right there, using your npcs has an extension of your ***** isn't what being a DM is about.
And beside - the DM may have put time in it, but if he's boring 6 other people... who's suffering more?
Remember, if the OP is just an ass and the other players don't want to go along with, his little revolution will fall flat... if the players all go along with it, then it's pretty telling.
A-Stop keeping track of hunger and it's penalties.
b-Question WHY their is a Lv.25 warlock in a village so poor it can't even feed it's people, and why said village even exists.
c-Eat the poor (A Modest proposal, anyone?)
And remember, a casters spells are useless when he's asleep.... Mostly.
The warlock wants work done? Then he feeds and gears his errand boys. No food? No gear? No results. A quick death at the hands of a DMPC is preferable to slow starvation, yes?
Next level you gain, retrain a feat for Skill Training: Nature, and strike off on your own. Forage, farm. DM wants to cry about it? Let him. Warlock wants to nuke you? Fine. Good messengers are hard to find; good adventurers are harder.
Loot the dungeon. Waylay the next pony cart you come across and take it to the dungeon with you, along with picks, shovels, axes sledgehammers and crowbars. Once you've cleared the place or monsters, strip it down to the bedrock.
Slice up the dead monsters for meat or spell/alchemy components. Take the torches, then the torch sconces. Pull the doors off their hinges and take those, then take the hinges too. All that finely carved ancient statuary is worth something to someone, all the cut stone making up the walls is good building material. Disassemble the traps and sell the parts. Monster dung is excellent fertilizer for the farmers' fields. Clear out the rooms of everything that isn't bolted down. Then take the things that are. Then take the bolts. Then take the floor they were bolted to. Leave nothing behind but an empty hole where the dungeon used to be.
Hire peasants if you have to in order to complete the work: tell them that they'll get to keep a portion of the things they recover, and that they'll be well-fed and protected for their trouble. If you're evil, or just don't care, then kill the peasants and take their stuff too. Once you're in the next city or town of significant size, you should be able to sell off your ill-gotten gains for a tidy profit, enough to upgrade a bit of equipment and go tackle the next dungeon and repeat.
...the point here, obviously, isn't to actually do all of this, but rather to flatly refuse to play the puppet for the GM to tug on the strings of, and to wrench the train-wreck of the game off the tracks and take back control of your game. The outcomes are simple: your GM either realizes what you're doing and that the ultimate power at the table isn't in his hands, and learns from the experience, or he becomes so frustrated with the players that he throws in the towel.
If the first result comes about: congratulations! You have a GM that is capable of learning from his mistakes -continue training him and soon your GM will be the envy of your FLGS.
If the second result occurs: You may have a dud on your hands. Return him to the store you got him from and politely ask for a refund. The manufacturing process, unfortunately, is not without its flaws, and occasionally a GM is simply defective and cannot be repaired.
Really? And you know this to be true from what? The vague references that the Op has written so far?
The OP's posts weren't vague. He spelled out clearly how the DM is railroading them. (Refusing to give the players options. Bringing in a really high level NPC to force the DM's will.)
"the male players (are group is 4 guys and 2 girls, In and out of game) are getting mad at the lack of money and food; the female players are just enjoying sins of the flesh to take their minds off of it, but they are starting to get annoyed with the lack of money."
Is it a Dm's fault if the players don't have a particular skill?
It can be.
First, not all classes have Nature as an optional skill. I can't remember if the OP said what the class breakdown was, but it's possible none of the PC's are a class that could train in it. Even if they did, it's possible they didn't take it because it didn't fit their character concept. (If a Ranger is more used to being part of a military organization than a woodsman, other skills would be more appropiate.) Sure, anyone could take the feat to learn it, but Nature is of such limited use that, unless the player knows in advance that the skill will actually be useful, there are other feats that would be a higher priority. (To take an idea from Order of the Stick... "Durkon the Dwarf Cleric wouldn't take Knowledge Nature. He's scared of trees!")
Gee, what is more railroady, letting the players pick their skills(hoping they will be smart enough to cover as many as possible) or forcing them to have certain ones?
How about giving players an idea what the campaign will be like so they pick ones that might be useful?
I see plenty of opportunities for the players, yet it seems from what the OP has written so far, that the only thing the players are doing is whining about not getting their money.
The PC's tried to leave and go elsewhere. The DM wouldn't let them.
Vindictive approach is to focus on the task the warlock wants you to do... and deliberately sabotage it. Kill the people he wants you to protect. Destroy the item he wants you to retrieve. Do everything you can to make sure everything he uses you for fails.
Show[M4k enters the room carrying a small portable stereo, which she sets on the ground and presses 'play.' The Dropkick Murphys' "Worker's Song" begins playing.]
The warlock wants work done? Then he feeds and gears his errand boys. No food? No gear? No results. A quick death at the hands of a DMPC is preferable to slow starvation, yes?
Next level you gain, retrain a feat for Skill Training: Nature, and strike off on your own. Forage, farm. DM wants to cry about it? Let him. Warlock wants to nuke you? Fine. Good messengers are hard to find; good adventurers are harder.
Loot the dungeon. Waylay the next pony cart you come across and take it to the dungeon with you, along with picks, shovels, axes sledgehammers and crowbars. Once you've cleared the place or monsters, strip it down to the bedrock.
Slice up the dead monsters for meat or spell/alchemy components. Take the torches, then the torch sconces. Pull the doors off their hinges and take those, then take the hinges too. All that finely carved ancient statuary is worth something to someone, all the cut stone making up the walls is good building material. Disassemble the traps and sell the parts. Monster dung is excellent fertilizer for the farmers' fields. Clear out the rooms of everything that isn't bolted down. Then take the things that are. Then take the bolts. Then take the floor they were bolted to. Leave nothing behind but an empty hole where the dungeon used to be.
Hire peasants if you have to in order to complete the work: tell them that they'll get to keep a portion of the things they recover, and that they'll be well-fed and protected for their trouble. If you're evil, or just don't care, then kill the peasants and take their stuff too. Once you're in the next city or town of significant size, you should be able to sell off your ill-gotten gains for a tidy profit, enough to upgrade a bit of equipment and go tackle the next dungeon and repeat.
...the point here, obviously, isn't to actually do all of this, but rather to flatly refuse to play the puppet for the GM to tug on the strings of, and to wrench the train-wreck of the game off the tracks and take back control of your game. The outcomes are simple: your GM either realizes what you're doing and that the ultimate power at the table isn't in his hands, and learns from the experience, or he becomes so frustrated with the players that he throws in the towel.
If the first result comes about: congratulations! You have a GM that is capable of learning from his mistakes -continue training him and soon your GM will be the envy of your FLGS.
If the second result occurs: You may have a dud on your hands. Return him to the store you got him from and politely ask for a refund. The manufacturing process, unfortunately, is not without its flaws, and occasionally a GM is simply defective and cannot be repaired.
Anyway, wanted to reply to some things folks have said: while this GM appears to be having problems for other reasons, GMs are not obligated to give players cash in line with the guidelines in the DMG. That is ridiculous. It is my game world, and in the end, my decision how much liquid cash there is. My players have barely a gold coin between them, and one carries acorns as cash, but the only complaint I have ever heard is that we don't play often enough. Am I a bad GM because I don't give my players enough cash, despite the fact that they are having a great time? Or am I doing just fine, and the treasure I dole out is unrelated to my quality as a GM?
Sorry but as a Dm I am not the toady to the players. If the players can't be bothered to put any effort into making a game, then they have to go through mine. I am the one that sets the tone, because they care not a bit about doing it themselves. I am the one that comes up with the theme, because they care not a bit about doing it themselves. I am the one that decides what they fight, because they care not a bit about doing it themselves.
I'll fine and good if your players are enjoying the game.
But if they aren't... What was the point of all your work?
Anyway, wanted to reply to some things folks have said: while this GM appears to be having problems for other reasons, GMs are not obligated to give players cash in line with the guidelines in the DMG. That is ridiculous. It is my game world, and in the end, my decision how much liquid cash there is. My players have barely a gold coin between them, and one carries acorns as cash, but the only complaint I have ever heard is that we don't play often enough. Am I a bad GM because I don't give my players enough cash, despite the fact that they are having a great time? Or am I doing just fine, and the treasure I dole out is unrelated to my quality as a GM?
Also, all fine and good if they are enjoying themselves... but if they aren't... What was the point of all your work?
...a level 25+ warlock...is forcing us to do his bidding and we cant leave because he can Scry on us at any given time and just teleport to us and then kill us with a simple daily power as he has shown with a NPC who disobeyed.
Quiterjon, what part of "Don't disobey me, or I'll ****ing spank you!" don't you get from this? Either the show of power was an illusion and nobody in the party had a high enough passive Perception to notice, or the warlock soundly demonstrated that via sheer levels and DM fiat the players must follow his instructions or he will execute them.
Quiterjon, what part of "Don't disobey me, or I'll ****ing spank you!" don't you get from this? Either the show of power was an illusion and nobody in the party had a high enough passive Perception to notice, or the warlock soundly demonstrated that via sheer levels and DM fiat the players must follow his instructions or he will execute them.
And what is wrong with this?
Is it again the Dms fault that the players may not have noticed the illusion, because no one took perception as a skill?
This is different, how, from the ability of the players to refuse an offer from the local mayor unless they get what they want?
Mayor: Please help us glorious adventurers, help save the merchants daughter, we a a poor community and can only offer 100g for your troubles.
Player: Oh we think we can come up with more ways for you to pay for our services. First rename the town after the ranger's animal companion. Hence forth the town is now know known as Bowserville. Second we get 90% of the money made by the merchants until such time we are satisfied. Thirdly we need a base of operations, this building will suffice for that. Oh this is your home, well now it's ours, be out by the end of the day.
At some point, since we have only the OP's word, we have to assume he's being straight-up and not trying to lead us along, or we descend into pointless bickering. Based on the information presented, it's pretty clear the GM is railroading. Certainly the OP could be lying or deliberately omitting information, but questioning him without any other means of verifying is frankly a waste of our time.
Not having enough information and wanting us to make comments is also a waste of our time.
I see no place where this Dm is 'railroading'
Mayor: Please help us glorious adventurers, help save the merchants daughter, we a a poor community and can only offer 100g for your troubles.
Player: Oh we think we can come up with more ways for you to pay for our services. First rename the town after the ranger's animal companion. Hence forth the town is now know known as Bowserville. Second we get 90% of the money made by the merchants until such time we are satisfied. Thirdly we need a base of operations, this building will suffice for that. Oh this is your home, well now it's ours, be out by the end of the day.
I see no place where this Dm is 'railroading'
If your players would shout RAILROADING until you gave in with that situation, you need to get better players. I can't think of a single person I've ever played with that would accuse me of railroading over not giving them what they want.
In this situation, I see it as railroading, yes. The DM is deliberately going out of his way to prevent them from leaving, saying that "Hey, if you don't do this, I'll kill your characters." Now, this is different then a situation where the DM puts his players in a place where, in order to save their lives they must pull a lever, even if the same phrase could be used to describe it. If they don't pull the lever, then they will die.
Here we have a group of decent equipped adventurers that cannot make any kind of good money off of their adventures, and the DM has even stated that he is giving them more than he intended because he doesn't want to them to starve to death. Then he turns around and says "If you try and make more money than I want you to have, then I will kill you."
Maybe it isn't Railroading exactly, but its definitely more towards than away.
In this situation, I would talk to the rest of my party, see what they thought. If we keep going like this, the game is no fun. If we try to change it, the game is over. So either way, we lose, but if its over at least we can have a shot at something different. What do we do? We call the Warlock's bluff, that's what. He obviously wants us for something, so he'd be at a loss if we left. However, if he kills us, he's at a loss anyway because we're dead.
There are two options that I can see here. One is actually kind of interesting. The other is railroading.
Option One- The Warden. The Warlock is preventing you from leaving because he is being paid to do just that. In this situation, the explanation for the lack of money is because the current environ is actually something of a weird, outdoor prison.
Option Two- Mido. Ever play The Ocarina of Time? Here, the Warlock is Mido, preventing you from exploring Hyrule by merely standing in front of you. This is a very video-gamey approach to DnD and is incredibly frustrating. Rampant Railroading if I ever saw some.
Is it again the Dms fault that the players may not have noticed the illusion, because no one took perception as a skill?
It is, strictly speaking, if he had designed this adventure with the expectation that somebody had a passive score high enough to detect the illusion but without checking such scores beforehand.
This is different, how, from the ability of the players to refuse an offer from the local mayor unless they get what they want?
Well, here's one difference.
*Example 1*
Warlock: Do this for me, and I will pay you with the pennies I found in my parent's couch! The attached lint may contain some nutritional value, as well!
PCs: Um...how about no?
Warlock: If you don't, I'll make your intestines shoot out of your ears. Which will hurt. A lot.
PCs: Hmm, well, I guess we better do it, then.
*Example 2*
Mayor: Please help us! Save the merchants daughter!
PCs: What's the pay?
Mayor: Well, we are a poor community, but we can pay you 100 gold for your trouble...
PCs: Hmm (looks at character sheet - we're unaligned!). I don't think that's enough pay, sorry.
Mayor: (Depending on the NPC's attitude, may get angry or beg)
PCs: (Depending on the players' attitudes, may give in or look for more lucrative jobs).
*Example 3*
Mayor: Please help us! Save the merchants daughter!
PCs: What's the pay?
Mayor: Well, we are a poor community, but we can pay you 100 gold for your trouble...
PCs: Hmm (looks at character sheet - we're evil!). Oh we think we can come up with more ways for you to pay for our services... (long list of ridiculous demands)
Mayor: (Gets angry and, depending on the NPC's attitude, gives in or has the town attack/shun the PCs)
I guess I'm not being clear enough for some people, and me not checking in on my post in 16 hours did not help either...
The game is to the point that its not fun anymore, Starving for food, the money thing I can get around if he is giong to do some kind of plot device to make it worth the wait...but as he has said for the last 4 games
"you will get money you just have not gotten there yet, next game the money will come and you will not be starved anymore."
I could understand the first time, the second time smelt fishy (mmmm...fish), the third time I wanted to swear... and well the 4th time I wanted to slash his tires...um I mean Wagon wheels.
almost all of the group aggres with me. except the 2 girls, but they are to the annoyed point.
and this is to answer some of the other questions.
the warlock doesn't care the way other people live since it does not affect him, because he lives in a city that is flourishing in another plane of existence and "gets bored and decides to play with people who don't matter" (his words).
Ok, I typed encounter in stead of Daily. big deal, he threw around high level rituals near or around that level. The Dm has not disclosed his level to us but since I saw him (metagamingly speaking) using a mirror that had "Observe Creature" cast on it and I saw him use "spiteful darts" to impale a NPC on a spear behind him.
Whats wrong with throwing a guy who has all his defences above 40 where we cannot even hit with a 20, and we have no chance...ummm right....
we can't leave because he wants to pick on us and watch us suffer (his words).
Just get the nature skill!!! Whats the Problem? the DMG says that that is bad DMing, you should never just assume or require a player to change to fit your campaign. and the second part of this is that even if we had the nature skill to forage, WE CAN'T LEAVE TOWN and even if we do get a mission that sends us out we have not seen anything but dead trees and rotting animal carcasses with the predator that kill the creature dead next to it like there is no food to forage for.
Yes we have talked to the DM, for 4 days, countless E-mails and phone calls.. we are not ignoring the problem and hoping it goes away we are telling him how we feel, and not in that "winey" we are not getting our way way, we had a discussion with him and he said to "just wait a little longer".
I believe someone stated why don't you try to better yourself or do other things? we have tried and lost NPCs because we tried to leave the town we were in, and explore a dungeon the warlock teleports in and NPC dies, he seals dungeon with ritual, and we get teleported back to town and told to wait for his command.
And about railroading...
he says that he will kill us if we don't deliver theses blankets to the near by towns, the NPC that started with us started to say "yeah right, forget you" and died, we then agreed to deliver the blankets. we finish the quest and I was going to take a bounty hunter gig and take down a criminal that has been stealing and kidnapping children, the warlock says I can take the job but I cant leave, the guy was last spotted 100 miles away and is suppose to have a base of operations in a forest along the way, so I gave up on that. So then we decide to try a nearby cave on the outskirts of town, and the warlock shows up and says no seals it and goes away. finally he tells us that he wants us to find this mercenary and pay him with a bag of gold (the bag is enchanted so that only the mercenary can open it, We tried
) and that's basically as far as we got. other than some stuff to get jobs and survive.Oh and we are pretty sure its not a illusion, someone in the group has a 24 passive insight and perception, and has made 30 checks so far to see if it was a illusion.
OK that should address alot of the problems people have had with me...
we are going to play it nice the first 4 hours of the game and if it doesn't seem like its going to improve we are going with the Plan codenamed "Tastes like Chicken"
OOOOKKKKKAAAAYYY...
I guess I'm not being clear enough for some people, and me not checking in on my post in 16 hours did not help either...
The game is to the point that its not fun anymore, Starving for food, the money thing I can get around if he is giong to do some kind of plot device to make it worth the wait...but as he has said for the last 4 games
"you will get money you just have not gotten there yet, next game the money will come and you will not be starved anymore."
I could understand the first time, the second time smelt fishy (mmmm...fish), the third time I wanted to swear... and well the 4th time I wanted to slash his tires...um I mean Wagon wheels.
almost all of the group aggres with me. except the 2 girls, but they are to the annoyed point.
and this is to answer some of the other questions.
the warlock doesn't care the way other people live since it does not affect him, because he lives in a city that is flourishing in another plane of existence and "gets bored and decides to play with people who don't matter" (his words).
Ok, I typed encounter in stead of Daily. big deal, he threw around high level rituals near or around that level. The Dm has not disclosed his level to us but since I saw him (metagamingly speaking) using a mirror that had "Observe Creature" cast on it and I saw him use "spiteful darts" to impale a NPC on a spear behind him.
Whats wrong with throwing a guy who has all his defences above 40 where we cannot even hit with a 20, and we have no chance...ummm right....
we can't leave because he wants to pick on us and watch us suffer (his words).
Just get the nature skill!!! Whats the Problem? the DMG says that that is bad DMing, you should never just assume or require a player to change to fit your campaign. and the second part of this is that even if we had the nature skill to forage, WE CAN'T LEAVE TOWN and even if we do get a mission that sends us out we have not seen anything but dead trees and rotting animal carcasses with the predator that kill the creature dead next to it like there is no food to forage for.
Yes we have talked to the DM, for 4 days, countless E-mails and phone calls.. we are not ignoring the problem and hoping it goes away we are telling him how we feel, and not in that "winey" we are not getting our way way, we had a discussion with him and he said to "just wait a little longer".
I believe someone stated why don't you try to better yourself or do other things? we have tried and lost NPCs because we tried to leave the town we were in, and explore a dungeon the warlock teleports in and NPC dies, he seals dungeon with ritual, and we get teleported back to town and told to wait for his command.
And about railroading...
he says that he will kill us if we don't deliver theses blankets to the near by towns, the NPC that started with us started to say "yeah right, forget you" and died, we then agreed to deliver the blankets. we finish the quest and I was going to take a bounty hunter gig and take down a criminal that has been stealing and kidnapping children, the warlock says I can take the job but I cant leave, the guy was last spotted 100 miles away and is suppose to have a base of operations in a forest along the way, so I gave up on that. So then we decide to try a nearby cave on the outskirts of town, and the warlock shows up and says no seals it and goes away. finally he tells us that he wants us to find this mercenary and pay him with a bag of gold (the bag is enchanted so that only the mercenary can open it, We tried
Oh and we are pretty sure its not a illusion, someone in the group has a 24 passive insight and perception, and has made 30 checks so far to see if it was a illusion.
OK that should address alot of the problems people have had with me...
we are going to play it nice the first 4 hours of the game and if it doesn't seem like its going to improve we are going with the Plan codenamed "Tastes like Chicken"
Two words. "I quit." Use them. Or perhaps more useful at the table, "I am not enjoying this game anymore, I would like to play another D&D campaign."
If the game is so bad and has stopped being fun, AND the DM disregards your concerns (including stringing you along), then the entire purpose of playing the game is lost.
Seriously, mate, not too long ago I was in an online RP (a freeform play by post) where my nobleman paladin had started a refugee camp (complete with continuously funding the whole thing), and the refugees outright ignore him, instead choosing to follow the duskling DMPC with an outright worship that is creepy, because "she is so kind". It stressed me out no end, my hobby became a chore.
I left and within 2 weeks I have been having an absolute blast playing the same character with a different group. Just quit that game, encourage the other players to do the same. If you are not having fun, then the game is not doing what it should.
Few things are worse than when your hobby becomes a chore to play.
Also, all fine and good if they are enjoying themselves... but if they aren't... What was the point of all your work?
You're not really who I was targeting I think. I was specifically responding to sentiment like this:
If you're playing 4E, the game has a set economy that is built into the balance of the ruleset. The DM is changing the availability of currency within that economy without making any of the other numerous and necessary changes required to keep the game balanced. This does not strike me as the DM setting the characters up for a specific story, this strikes me as the DM not knowing what he's doing.
which has come up a few times in this thread, and essentially boils down to "GM's who don't give out the DMG's recommended treasure ratio are cheating/destroying balance." While Galstaff's GM is clearly breaking plenty of other rules of GMing, I can see plenty of reasons the low money thing is not one. That's all.
If you took out the railroading uber-NPC and the inability to leave one town and maybe the forcing PC's to starve, it'd be another matter, more in line with what I said in my first post. The low cash is really the least of their issues.
ShowOOOOKKKKKAAAAYYY...
I guess I'm not being clear enough for some people, and me not checking in on my post in 16 hours did not help either...
The game is to the point that its not fun anymore, Starving for food, the money thing I can get around if he is giong to do some kind of plot device to make it worth the wait...but as he has said for the last 4 games
"you will get money you just have not gotten there yet, next game the money will come and you will not be starved anymore."
I could understand the first time, the second time smelt fishy (mmmm...fish), the third time I wanted to swear... and well the 4th time I wanted to slash his tires...um I mean Wagon wheels.
almost all of the group aggres with me. except the 2 girls, but they are to the annoyed point.
and this is to answer some of the other questions.
the warlock doesn't care the way other people live since it does not affect him, because he lives in a city that is flourishing in another plane of existence and "gets bored and decides to play with people who don't matter" (his words).
Ok, I typed encounter in stead of Daily. big deal, he threw around high level rituals near or around that level. The Dm has not disclosed his level to us but since I saw him (metagamingly speaking) using a mirror that had "Observe Creature" cast on it and I saw him use "spiteful darts" to impale a NPC on a spear behind him.
Whats wrong with throwing a guy who has all his defences above 40 where we cannot even hit with a 20, and we have no chance...ummm right....
we can't leave because he wants to pick on us and watch us suffer (his words).
Just get the nature skill!!! Whats the Problem? the DMG says that that is bad DMing, you should never just assume or require a player to change to fit your campaign. and the second part of this is that even if we had the nature skill to forage, WE CAN'T LEAVE TOWN and even if we do get a mission that sends us out we have not seen anything but dead trees and rotting animal carcasses with the predator that kill the creature dead next to it like there is no food to forage for.
Yes we have talked to the DM, for 4 days, countless E-mails and phone calls.. we are not ignoring the problem and hoping it goes away we are telling him how we feel, and not in that "winey" we are not getting our way way, we had a discussion with him and he said to "just wait a little longer".
I believe someone stated why don't you try to better yourself or do other things? we have tried and lost NPCs because we tried to leave the town we were in, and explore a dungeon the warlock teleports in and NPC dies, he seals dungeon with ritual, and we get teleported back to town and told to wait for his command.
And about railroading...
he says that he will kill us if we don't deliver theses blankets to the near by towns, the NPC that started with us started to say "yeah right, forget you" and died, we then agreed to deliver the blankets. we finish the quest and I was going to take a bounty hunter gig and take down a criminal that has been stealing and kidnapping children, the warlock says I can take the job but I cant leave, the guy was last spotted 100 miles away and is suppose to have a base of operations in a forest along the way, so I gave up on that. So then we decide to try a nearby cave on the outskirts of town, and the warlock shows up and says no seals it and goes away. finally he tells us that he wants us to find this mercenary and pay him with a bag of gold (the bag is enchanted so that only the mercenary can open it, We tried
Oh and we are pretty sure its not a illusion, someone in the group has a 24 passive insight and perception, and has made 30 checks so far to see if it was a illusion.
OK that should address alot of the problems people have had with me...
we are going to play it nice the first 4 hours of the game and if it doesn't seem like its going to improve we are going with the Plan codenamed "Tastes like Chicken"
1- "we are leaving this town, it blows" group walks to next town. If we make it, go to line 2, if we are teleported back go to line 3, if we die in the woods got to line 5.
2-"Does this town also blow?" if no, go to line 4, if yes go to line 5.
3- "Oh, that is lame" My PC's is done eating. Go to line 5.
4- "Sweet, lets have fun." Go to line 6.
5- "My PC is now dead, I quit."
6- "Awesome, look how much fun I am having."
Hey, we got information now.
Yes the Dm is being less than adequate at his job and needs to be removed.
Things really need to be spelled out to you eh?
Things really need to be spelled out to you eh?
When someone wants to know my opinion, yes.
How can one make any kind of informed decision, when one doesn't know all the relative information?
The best Dm I ever had, ran a campaign that if I gave as much information as the Op did originally. I would have received that same responses that the Op did: Railroading, destroy the game, the Dm doesn't know anything, etc.
When someone wants to know my opinion, yes.
How can one make any kind of informed decision, when one doesn't know all the relative information?
The best Dm I ever had, ran a campaign that if I gave as much information as the Op did originally. I would have received that same responses that the Op did: Railroading, destroy the game, the Dm doesn't know anything, etc.
Considering all the way back in post #29 he said:
all he has been doing is "Railroading" us, if i understand the term. a level 25+ warlock (I say 25+ because he used a encounter power around there) is forcing us to do his bidding and we cant leave because he can Scry on us at any given time and just teleport to us and then kill us with a simple daily power as he has shown with a NPC who disobeyed.
I find it odd that you continued to argue the point.
Now, yes, I suppose that could be used in a good game... but if it was angered the players, then it wasn't being used CORRECTLY. Obviously, since it was angering him (and as he stated, the other players), I have no understanding of how you failed to grasp the railroading.
That was a joke.
Thanks for all of the responses from everyone.
Considering all the way back in post #29 he said:all he has been doing is "Railroading" us, if i understand the term. a level 25+ warlock (I say 25+ because he used a encounter power around there) is forcing us to do his bidding and we cant leave because he can Scry on us at any given time and just teleport to us and then kill us with a simple daily power as he has shown with a NPC who disobeyed.
I find it odd that you continued to argue the point.
Now, yes, I suppose that could be used in a good game... but if it was angered the players, then it wasn't being used CORRECTLY. Obviously, since it was angering him (and as he stated, the other players), I have no understanding of how you failed to grasp the railroading.
Because the OP wasn't complaining about being railroaded?
His initial post was about lack of monies.
And further said the Dm told them that money was coming but they hadn't gotten to the point where the money was. Which again doesn't mean it's the Dm's fault for lack of money. It could be that the players aren't following any rhyme or reason in their motives and are just going about all willy-nilly.
It wasn't until the 29th post that the Op even mentioned being railroaded.
And it was until the 65th post that the Op gave enough information to come to some actual conclusion, that wasn't based completely on conjecture, but actually still is based on nothing but one person's PoV.
Railroading is this bad term constructed by people who want what they want when they want. I can't think of a single canned adventure that cannot be interpreted as a giant railroad.
Far too many threads in this section comes down to "Dude you're being railroaded"
If it doesn't work, just die. Your next character won't remember a thing.
But I do agree with the OP in that this DM does not sound like a very good DM.
But his fault is not in the initial premise. And his fault is not in refusing to change his premise to suit his players.
His fault is that he has simply allowed the boring prologue to whatever he intends to have run on too long (And yes, I am giving him the benefit of doubt here and assuming he has an eventual point). If this were a book or movie, the last several sessions would have been edited out and left on the cutting room floor.
In other words - nothing the DM has done is strictly wrong or inappropriate - or at least not if used in moderation. He has simply set up a challenging and difficult starting premise for his game.
But just as books and movies must be edited or risk their readers/viewers tossing them aside in bored disgust, the DM is risking the same in his players. (And just as many writers need an editor to tell them when they have gone on too long, obviously this DM needs that advice as well).
My recommendation: Tell your DM that you are bored by this approach and that if he doesn't get to the point soon you will find something else to do with your time.
At the very least he should be willing to give you some OOC discussion of what he is trying to do here and when he expects the situation to change.
And if he won't do at least that much, follow through and play something else.
Carl
Disclaimer: I usually side with the DM in cases like this - I don't buy into the modern philosophy of entitlement and I see nothing wrong with the intial concept. And what has been described is not "railroading".
But I do agree with the OP in that this DM does not sound like a very good DM.
But his fault is not in the initial premise. And his fault is not in refusing to change his premise to suit his players.
His fault is that he has simply allowed the boring prologue to whatever he intends to have run on too long (And yes, I am giving him the benefit of doubt here and assuming he has an eventual point). If this were a book or movie, the last several sessions would have been edited out and left on the cutting room floor.
In other words - nothing the DM has done is strictly wrong or inappropriate - or at least not if used in moderation. He has simply set up a challenging and difficult starting premise for his game.
But just as books and movies must be edited or risk their readers/viewers tossing them aside in bored disgust, the DM is risking the same in his players. (And just as many writers need an editor to tell them when they have gone on too long, obviously this DM needs that advice as well).
My recommendation: Tell your DM that you are bored by this approach and that if he doesn't get to the point soon you will find something else to do with your time.
At the very least he should be willing to give you some OOC discussion of what he is trying to do here and when he expects the situation to change.
And if he won't do at least that much, follow through and play something else.
Carl
1. While I don't think PCs should get whatever they want, I do believe that the Players are entitled to one thing: FUN.
2. How is, "I'm going to kill you with this "Warlock of Railroading +25", who is also sealing off any place I don't want you to go at the moment you step in it." not railroading your players?
3. He has already said several times that he has talked to the DM, who just keeps telling them over and over again to "wait." They have talked to him, which, maybe if you would read closely, you would know already.
I think baring a post apocalyptic world campaign my players are entitled to eat.
Only if they pitched in for the pizza... :P
2. How is, "I'm going to kill you with this "Warlock of Railroading +25", who is also sealing off any place I don't want you to go at the moment you step in it." not railroading your players?
This. It's railroading. It's the very definition of railroading.
Now, an "extreme poverty" theme could make for a great D&D campaign. Maybe even a railroad as blatant as the above could. But here's the thing: it is the DM's job to make the game fun for the players, and vice-versa. Sure, no player has some kind of inalienable right to certain in-game rewards at certain times, but it is the DM's duty to run a campaign that all of the players will enjoy to a reasonable degree.
Even if someone doesn't subscribe to the "mutual fun" theory and instead says the DM can run any kind of campaign he likes, giving out rewards with total disregard for the players' fun just so that he can force the campaign into exactly the shape that he (and he alone) wants it in--even if such a person is right, then it's equally true that any player has the right to say "I'm not having fun with this and if something doesn't change right now I'm leaving."
If a DM says, "Alright, I'm going to run a campaign in which you can do nothing whatsoever except exactly what a level 25 DMPC tells you and you will have to roll repeatedly against starving to death," and his players say "I will not find that campaign fun and I don't want to play in it," what should happen? I suggest that the DM should come up with another campaign premise that is fun for the players. But even if I'm wrong and the DM should disregard his players fun and refuse to give out even a single fun reward for the first four game sessions, then the players should likewise get up and leave.
The DM is changing the availability of currency within that economy without making any of the other numerous and necessary changes required to keep the game balanced.
Actually it seems as if he does make all these other changes. The PCs lack cash, they do have equipment worth a lot of gold pieces, they just can neither sell nor eat their equipment. A light shield was mentioned and if the PCs also have weapons and an armor that's quickly a 100gp worth of cash, just unfortunately bound and not avaible to buy food.
Except for the heavy railroading I think I would enjoy such a campaign where the PCs barely manage to live hand to mouth. Gives an interesting feel of being a poor medieval mercenary who has to loot the boots of slain enemies after a battle hoping to fing a pair in which his toes won't freeze of during the winter.
Yet it's a matter of preferences, some like such a setting and some don't. A DM shouldn't force a setting upon players not liking such a setting, no matter how great such a setting would be for him and others
I think you should let the game play out as it is, in a realistic way.
First, let at least one PC starve to death. Then, in desperation, eat that PC.
Afterwards, make a habit of killing the first living thing you see whenever you're hungry, and try to gather a group of people around you with like-minded ideals (Does 4e still have the Leadership feat?). You and your roving band of cannibals can be just like those gangs in Cormac McArthy's The Road.
Keep doing this until your DM wises up by giving you more money OR by starting a new game OR by making it clear that your game was actually set in a post-apocalyptic world the whole time and your behavior is perfectly acceptable.
Prator...you are my new hero.
ROFLMAODisclaimer: I usually side with the DM in cases like this - I don't buy into the modern philosophy of entitlement and I see nothing wrong with the intial concept. And what has been described is not "railroading".
But I do agree with the OP in that this DM does not sound like a very good DM.
But his fault is not in the initial premise. And his fault is not in refusing to change his premise to suit his players.
His fault is that he has simply allowed the boring prologue to whatever he intends to have run on too long (And yes, I am giving him the benefit of doubt here and assuming he has an eventual point). If this were a book or movie, the last several sessions would have been edited out and left on the cutting room floor.
In other words - nothing the DM has done is strictly wrong or inappropriate - or at least not if used in moderation. He has simply set up a challenging and difficult starting premise for his game.
But just as books and movies must be edited or risk their readers/viewers tossing them aside in bored disgust, the DM is risking the same in his players. (And just as many writers need an editor to tell them when they have gone on too long, obviously this DM needs that advice as well).
My recommendation: Tell your DM that you are bored by this approach and that if he doesn't get to the point soon you will find something else to do with your time.
At the very least he should be willing to give you some OOC discussion of what he is trying to do here and when he expects the situation to change.
And if he won't do at least that much, follow through and play something else.
Carl
It's not a question of entitlement. It's the realization that the DM is not some inherently superior being such that players must beg for table scraps. It's not a Sin To Gaming for player characters to have nice things. It's not a Sin To Gaming for player characters to be powerful. The DM has the power to say No and at times it is necessary. However, that power does not obligate him never saying Yes. Not "we'll see". Not "yes, but". Not "But it'll cost you" An outright "Yes."
this is what happened. (paraphrased to save space and boredom, also summarizing 9+ hours of game play takes a lot of space)
We talked to the DM and told him how we felt. he said "yea but its going to get better soon".
"how soon?"
"by the after the quest you will receive"
we started out in the town and got a quest to go help the mayor find his daughter. she was last seen at the well in town. went there, found caves, explored caves. found girl, brought her back to mayor, and received reward.... this is around the 5-6 hour point so we were getting kinda anxious on what we would receive.
the mayor said that he was the most affluent man in the town said he would give us riches this town had never seen (we all thought finally) and he pull out of his cupboard 3 pieces of flaccid celery and some stuff to make broth, Really watery broth. We said "your going to feed us?" he said well I don't have enough for everyone".:headexplo .
I stood up and said player meeting out front now. we all left and made sure the DM could not hear and I was about to tell them the final step in my plan (Operation: Tastes like chicken) but then one of the girls said this "I say that when hes done cooking we hold him down slit his throat cook him and if we are sill hungry we eat his daughter and take his house"
Shocked I asked where did you get that Idea, she said "well my character is tired of your stomach ruining her stealth checks, and the fact is that you deserve a well balanced meal after all the sacrifices you made for the party, And I read it on the WOTC forums [she does not know my screen name] and said that would fix our problems and we all can have fun again, instead of everyone but the fighter and paladin ."
So we walked in and the DM says "I know what your doing but you cant get blood from a stone, he has nothing else to give you unless he is going to stave to death."
I asked "is this the reward that is supposed to make us feel better, or make us better off than we were?" and he said "Yes, your party is not as hungry as it once was" (Wrong answer)
once he was done, he served everyone, but me and the paladin, and started to clean up, the rouge went and slit his thought and wile he was still flailing around I told the DM "I Eat the mayor, and think of ways to prepare his daughter, I'm Leaning to blacked over a bonfire with what ever spices we can get from houses that we will break into."
He was shocked, as I described with Zombie movie imagery as I shared the mayor with the paladin.
just like clockwork his daughter came in hearing the scuffle, and the paladin went and bit her on the neck and she suffocated to death. with the mayors blood all over me and him half eaten I said to the rouges go loot houses for spices and fire wood we are having BBQ tonight pointing at the daughter, the paladin chimed in and said she was very tender.
right then the DM said "Stop it, your ruining my game."
The warlock teleports in and said you better have a good reason for this...
I go yep I was about to die of starvation and I found food, Want a leg?
shocked that I said that, the rouges started gnawing on his legs. and for some reason he just teleported away after putting a special curse on us.
then the DM, sits there speechless as we make munching sounds and say how the daughter was turning out nicely, and how she was going to be nice tender and juicy.
The DM said, DO NOT EAT THE DAUGHTER!
My character with her arm in my mouth says "what"
the DM called for a 10 min break and came up with this solution.
As soon as I bit into the daughter (I didn't learn her name, I don't get attached to food, just encase you were asking:D ) and I woke up in a cold sweat in a "stereotypical"l Inn, with my party sitting at the end of the bed, saying that I had been poisoned and almost did not make it, I turn my head and see all my equipment and a big sack of gold coins next to the bed, the party said that they had collected the reward and gave me my share +some for saving the party.
and walking down stairs the guy running the Inn said that he had fresh pork for breakfast, "I said no, I only eat meat that I prepare" and the whole group laughed. as we all went to buy equipment, to get ready for our next adventure.
(I think we are killing a dragon, with a actual treasure horde and not a sickly vegetable garden)
OK, guys you can question our methods but they got us to where we wanted to go, and isn't that all that matters. Thanks for all the support, and if you did not give support.... Want a leg?
Campaign like the one he wanted to run really only work with some discussion with the players. In other words some of the goals and themes have to be discussed, and accepted by the players or it does not work. Clearly he wanted to play it close to the vest, but unless your players trust you implicitly you cannot get away with it. Hopefully you taught him the lesson that, well the players are part of the game too. Players don't just magically appear every week to get jerked around in some sort of wish fulfillment scenario.
Anyway good luck with the new direction.
sorry for taking so long to get to you guys, I had to sleep.
right now as it stands he (the DM) is a major "Conductor"
all he has been doing is "Railroading" us, if i understand the term. a level 25+ warlock (I say 25+ because he used a encounter power around there) is forcing us to do his bidding and we cant leave because he can Scry on us at any given time and just teleport to us and then kill us with a simple daily power as he has shown with a NPC who disobeyed.
the DM has been promising us gold for about 4 sessions but he says you did not get to the point in the story yet.
the male players (are group is 4 guys and 2 girls, In and out of game) are getting mad at the lack of money and food; the female players are just enjoying sins of the flesh to take their minds off of it, but they are starting to get annoyed with the lack of money.
he might have a great story planed out but so far after 24 hours of total gaming time (out of game, in game its been a month) we are poor hungry and can leave unless the warlock sends us somewhere to do something where he pays us in things that beggars would turn down because they have higher standards.
OK I think I got to alot of the questions answered but I might have missed some, I did not expect to get this many responses
Well, if the players are unhappy, they can vote with their feet, and the six of you can go start a new game.
In game though... If money is that scarce, what about bartering with the people in the village? Do tasks for them in exchange for food and goods.
Just my two copper...
Well, if the players are unhappy, they can vote with their feet, and the six of you can go start a new game.
In game though... If money is that scarce, what about bartering with the people in the village? Do tasks for them in exchange for food and goods.
Just my two copper...
We tried that everyone (townsfolk) was so poor they had to choose between trading/bartering with us and starve, or giving us what they could and feed their families, leaving us to starve.
not that it matters anymore "Operation: Tastes like Chicken", worked in my last post. (i promise to not call it that anymore, I know it was not funny to begin with)
Well the game just ended...
That is quite possibly the funniest game story I've ever heard. Disturbing, but hilarious.
TS
Must have been quite a revelation to him when he realized he doesn't have total power - I'm kinda surprised he didn't blow up when you told his DMPC off
We tried that everyone (townsfolk) was so poor they had to choose between trading/bartering with us and starve, or giving us what they could and feed their families, leaving us to starve.
not that it matters anymore "Operation: Tastes like Chicken", worked in my last post. (i promise to not call it that anymore, I know it was not funny to begin with)
Your according to cannibals humans taste like pork.
Your according to cannibals humans taste like pork.
I think thats what he was going for... and I watch to much discovery channel
Head explodes :headexplo
that's awesome
soooo How many D&DI points do I add to my wizards score?
everyone who posted knows this thread should never of gotten to almost 100 posts and 2500 looks.
Was this all just a dream all along?
I mean, as in planned.. to frustrate the players.
Some kind of gamer DM led psychological experiment.
Maybe he's a big fan of psychodrama, and wanted to see how far players in the "Dream" would have to be pushed, to go to cannibalism.
Because it certainly seems like it makes sense he's been poisoned, the party is there, etc and all the players just played parts in this "dream" extended scenario.
My only problem with it is that if I was in this, it would have run too long.
But my clue is he keeps saying, soon , money soon, money...and never did it, because his player railroading dream ending trigger was cannibalism. Once the player's accomplished that, he let them "Wake up."
Could be, what does anyone else think?
I mean this sounds like something straight out of a Ravenloft Dreamscape deal, horrifying, etc.
Thing is though if that was the case, maybe the DM liked the idea of the poor harsh dream world and was in between deciding was the dream real, or not.
I predict this game won't last because in either case it was mishandled.
Seems like the players are inventive. I'd say one of the players Steps up and DMs something really cool.
Good Luck to the OP, and group.
OK, guys you can question our methods but they got us to where we wanted to go, and isn't that all that matters. Thanks for all the support, and if you did not give support.... Want a leg?
Yum. Nice tender maiden flesh. Sign me up! :evillaugh
In case you are still hungry -
That was so so awesome.
Cannibalism FTW!!!!
Forever after, you shall roleplay this character with an avid taste for pork prepared slightly pink. :D
Seems like the players are inventive. I'd say one of the players Steps up and DMs something really cool.
Good Luck to the OP, and group.
Well you got this awesomenessfrom the Op himself.