I'm in the process of buying every 3.0-3.5 book I can find. I brought over a bunch of Eberron books and was discussing Artificer being "broken" with the group.
"I don't understand why you would play something that is broken if you know it is broken." -player 1
"I like powerful classes." -player 2
"I do too, but I wouldn't want to play one for very long. Owning combat all the time is not fun. You should just DM if you love the combat." -me
"Why not just play something for flavor reasons? You two are such powergamers. It's so annoying."-player 1
So, I DM most of the games we play. Player 2 plays a goliath fighter who, in my game, has monkey grip and a way too big greatsword. (I know they don't stack, but I like the idea, so I encouraged it.)
Player 1, the one who sounds reasonable. He is going for fighter/hulking hurler/warhulk in my game, and is a large race.
It's very hard for me to even look Player 1 in the eye when he talks. I'm thinking about ignoring him completely from now on.
Funny thing, my game is more about the story and less about the combat. Maybe I should have told them that before we started? The bard in the gang is the real show stopper!!!
Please post any similar situations you have had with your group. I find the worst Timmy Powergamers are in denial about it.
Often, when someone who doesn't want to build an optimized character is put in the position of playing in a party with optimized characters, they are forced to either optimize, or do little-to-nothing during combat, as combats built average will be crushed by the optimizer, and combats built to challenge him will make the rest of the party useless.
I can only see it getting worse in your game, where you've allowed optimization even beyond the rules. I can easily see player 1 putting together what he is simply in response to a goliath wielding a huge (4d6 damage?) greatsword.
i also built all the characters in my most recent game. all of them are well built, but don't take advantage of any of the "superpowered" 4e concepts, such as the former feycharger, or frostcheese, or area burst 3 within 10 psychic locking, enemies-only bursts at-will.
it really took some work on the part of the players (along with the unwillingness of anyone else to run a game), but i got all of them playing the characters i wrote up.....i came up with simple backstories with roughly 3 important events and enough holes to insert their own stuff, put them together, and we started the campaign.
The players are having loads of fun. one of the aforementioned powergamers actually enjoys it when the party avoids combat, simply because he seems to have loads of fun roleplaying his character (a hyperactive 16-year-old girl halfling wild sorceror).
If you want players to play a roleplaying, story-oriented game with less combat.....then do your players a favor and let them know ahead of time.
We do have combat, but it is either over quickly, or the pcs have to flee. Usually combat lasts 6 rounds, which is fine by me. They haven't really had a big boss fight yet, that's next game. Their biggest challenge so far has been their own stupid actions in the party. I can't stop laughing since the party monk burnt down the pcs' house. "But there were bad guys in there!"
The crux of my game is that it is currently urban setting with indoor fighting. Good luck weilding that 9' great sword in a hallway, or normal sized room. Good luck throwing things bigger than the room is wide. This much was told to these players when we started, yet they still chose builds not suited for it. Mores the pity. The psion, bard, monk, cleric, and ranger are holding up just fine. They have this little thing called a will save.
Yeah, 7 players....ugh.
I know a guy who always tries to set games up with me who does this same thing. Always goes on about how he hates power gamers, and just does stuff because of the flavor, not the power.
Then in actual concept he does nothing but play 3.5 Planar Shepherds.
Basically I ignore him, and do my best not to invite him to games.
For your thrower, consider letting him throw smaller objects, but letting damage be dealt as though they were his max allowed size. Or the spell shrink item on giant rocks.
The original post is a confusing mess. On one hand the OP appears to be relatively neutral to power-gaming, then he seems to encourage it (monkey grip and big weapon) and the "reasonable player" is just another power gamer that the OP wishes was somewhere else. And in what capacity is the Bard the "show stopper"?
The hulking hurler player is not just another power gamer. He's a game breaker. The post was meant to point out his hipocrisy.
I encourage the big sword wielder because I like the concept, and it's only d6 more damage with a penalty to hit. It's funny to picture his weapon, kind of like a Japanese Nodachi. If you look at pictures of that weapon, you only have to wonder.
As for the bard, he is the show stopper because the game is quick combat and long talk sequences. The bard was designed to be good at these sequences thanks to his spells and skill selection. His character fits this area (city) of the campaign like a glove.
I look at the makeup of the group, and think that it could be worse. I could have a druid.
Back to my original thought tho. Do you know any "powergamers" and "game breakers" who are in denial about it? Do they love to call other players powergamers? Is this rare?
Navar - being a proud power gamer shows you have an interest in the game, so I tend to reward it as dm. This is especially true if I like your character concept.
However, always thrown in once in a while an encounter that neutralizes or greatly resists whatever they do that's technically optimized. Frostcheese? Make an encounter with enemies that have high frost resistance. Constant dazing and stunning? It's not to hard to make a monster immune to that, or one that can give itself lots of saving throws. Tons of untyped damage? Make enemies with really high defenses that the optimizer's abilities usually target.
On the opposite end of the spectrum, I always go over my player's character sheets. If there is a character who hasn't chosen "optimized" feats or powers, I always go out of my way in include an encounter or situation where those powers are useful.
Using an example from above, perhaps the power-gamer does lots of untyped damage. You make a BBEG with super high defenses to counter this. Then, you make it so that one of the non-optimized character's abilities lowers those defenses, allowing the power-gamer to be effective. Maybe the non-optimizer chose the Linguist feat, and godh-darn-it, the Pit Fiend overlord really hates Abyssal to be spoken and it makes him fly into a mindless rage (aka, lowers his AC, Will, and Reflex defenses).
This is what should separate D&D from an MMO/video game; a real person is there to make the characters, whatever they choose, feel like a star.
When first starting dnd everyone at these forums told me how important it was with game balance.
Everything has however worked out very well with far from optimized classes. I gave the low charisma warlock a magic item to compensate just to see that it wasn't at all needed.
When first starting dnd everyone at these forums told me how important it was with game balance.
Everything has however worked out very well with far from optimized classes. I gave the low charisma warlock a magic item to compensate just to see that it wasn't at all needed.
I've had bad experiences with DMs handing magic items out in order to balance the game.
Long story short 2nd edition game.(started before 3rd came out)
The 2 fighters (me and another guy) didn't get squat at level 1-5.
The cleric didn't get anything either(he was really good on his own anyway).
The wizard(necromancer) started with a glove that made him undead and gave him false life whenever he wanted it.(good idea, make the wizard immortal)
The dual class cleric/rogue started with a magical item that basically let him cast any illusion spell he could read in the book (dm's brother...hmm sounds right). He was also the best archer in the group thanks to a ruling that he didn't hit other pcs when firing into melee. Funny how my character was all devoted to archery, but not the best archer because I still hit others. Anyway, his character could have solo'd the game thanks to having every class.
Suffice it to say, after 6 hrs of arguing with the dm over the course of the first 5 games, he got frustrated with me. For the rest of the game, I was the weakest character (and rolled the worst hps you can roll). Funny thing is, it was my favorite campaign so far (probably because it was the longest one I didn't dm).
It's highly interesting how all the other pcs agreed that I was the unreasonable one when it came to those "magical items" certain pcs had. They argued the dm handed them out to maintain balance. Wizards and rogues are weak in 2nd edition according to him.
Anyway, I stayed with the game because my friend playing the cleric promised me it would balance out. It never did and he has since apologized.
I took so much away from playing a weak character. Yet I am the powergamer of the group according to the cleric/rogue/wizard/archer. See original post.
It's off and on with me when it comes to power gaming. I have been tramatized by rolling low hps, so all my character concepts have to do with ending battle as quickly as possible or fleeing. Is it any wonder the combat in my games follows this line of thinking.
Back to my original thought tho. Do you know any "powergamers" and "game breakers" who are in denial about it? Do they love to call other players powergamers? Is this rare?
Navar - being a proud power gamer shows you have an interest in the game, so I tend to reward it as dm. This is especially true if I like your character concept.
Different rules for different groups.
In some groups power gamers can mingle with non power gamers
Other groups will shun the power gamer
A different group might shun the concept builder because it's underpowered
In a perfect world gamers could get along together and accept different people have fun differently. As long as everyone is having fun then what matters?
Although an old friend wants to DM a game for us, and one of the "role players" has asked me to show her all the 3e tricks so we can playfully demonstrate to our old friend why we play 4e now. So ya never know, an innocent role player might be on the dark brink of becoming a roll player.
Do you know any "powergamers" and "game breakers" who are in denial about it? Do they love to call other players powergamers? Is this rare?
There is no such thing as a "game breaker". If the game can be broken than the DM isn't doing a very good job. To quote the Dead Alewives "I'm the Dungeon Master. I control worlds, universes. Every potion you drink, I mixed. Every magic item you find, I put it there." and this couldn't be any more true.
The DM is the final athority on anything that happens and if the players are taking control of the game away from the DM, the DM should take it back. Not in an agressive way but change the circumstances. If they beat everything you throw at them, throw bigger things or things with more abilites that make it harder to fight.
The easy suggestion is if you want your game to be more RP'ing than fighting, change it. Make it so these big bad fighters have to think their way out of a situation.
Overall, as long as they stick to the rules I don't see a problem. You can't complain that people aren't playing the way you want because as soon as you do it becomes a bickering match and everybody gets involved. The point of D&D is playing with different people and learning to accept their style. Just don't let it get personal, there is no one way to play D&D.
I let them have a few one sided fights then , rumors of there artifact started getting out , other adverentures came looking for their proficised device that would save the world . They were summoned before kings and ordered to hand it over . This artifact ( it was a Orb btw ) was something that every one in the party wanted to use and would pine waiting for there turn to use it , but this orb was a trouble magment . I kept putting strings on using the orb. Heck they where litterly hunted where ever they went , pulled into situtions that epic level chrs would pale at . Finnally they destroyed the orb rather than let a npc take it .
After that they where glad to get back to problems that they could reasonibly handle .
Rember that Power , that's power with a capital P always comes with a price , and the most powerfull weapon a char has isn't a huge great sword with a 20 strenght , it's there cunning plan that causes 2 evil nations to go to war .
Ravel's DM rule 3 - when dealing with power gamers - Players determim the scope of the game . This means if your players want power give it to them, Tons of it I once gave a 6nd level player ( who was a huge min /maxer ) a major artifact where talking level 20 power , he and the rest of the group where over joyed they started making epic plans , planning to over through kindoms , wipe out former enemys all that type.
I let them have a few one sided fights then , rumors of there artifact started getting out , other adverentures came looking for their proficised device that would save the world . They were summoned before kings and ordered to hand it over . This artifact ( it was a Orb btw ) was something that every one in the party wanted to use and would pine waiting for there turn to use it , but this orb was a trouble magment . I kept putting strings on using the orb. Heck they where litterly hunted where ever they went , pulled into situtions that epic level chrs would pale at . Finnally they destroyed the orb rather than let a npc take it .
After that they where glad to get back to problems that they could reasonibly handle .
Rember that Power , that's power with a capital P always comes with a price , and the most powerfull weapon a char has isn't a huge great sword with a 20 strenght , it's there cunning plan that causes 2 evil nations to go to war .
Power Gaming has nothing to do with wanting a Magic Item of Whoopass +10. That's Munchkinism.
"The lession get up quicker" - choas league
It's off and on with me when it comes to power gaming. I have been tramatized by rolling low hps, so all my character concepts have to do with ending battle as quickly as possible or fleeing. Is it any wonder the combat in my games follows this line of thinking.
Back to my original thought tho. Do you know any "powergamers" and "game breakers" who are in denial about it? Do they love to call other players powergamers? Is this rare?
Navar - being a proud power gamer shows you have an interest in the game, so I tend to reward it as dm. This is especially true if I like your character concept.
Different rules for different groups.
In some groups power gamers can mingle with non power gamers
Other groups will shun the power gamer
A different group might shun the concept builder because it's underpowered
In a perfect world gamers could get along together and accept different people have fun differently. As long as everyone is having fun then what matters?
Our group has a pretty good relationship between power gamers and non-power gamers. On one hand we have a Wilden Seeker(my gf), Tiefling Wizard(me), and Goliath Fighter all built to be as effective as humanly possible including 20s in their main stat, smart placement of feat, and good selection of powers. On the other hand we have a Goliath Pacifist Cleric and a 16 Str Human Fighter with a +2 Prof weapon(i.e. a smaller attack bonus than the Wizard). We all understand that we have a role to play and treat each other with respect.
Ravel's DM rule 3 - when dealing with power gamers - Players determim the scope of the game . This means if your players want power give it to them, Tons of it I once gave a 6nd level player ( who was a huge min /maxer ) a major artifact where talking level 20 power , he and the rest of the group where over joyed they started making epic plans , planning to over through kindoms , wipe out former enemys all that type.
I let them have a few one sided fights then , rumors of there artifact started getting out , other adverentures came looking for their proficised device that would save the world . They were summoned before kings and ordered to hand it over . This artifact ( it was a Orb btw ) was something that every one in the party wanted to use and would pine waiting for there turn to use it , but this orb was a trouble magment . I kept putting strings on using the orb. Heck they where litterly hunted where ever they went , pulled into situtions that epic level chrs would pale at . Finnally they destroyed the orb rather than let a npc take it .
After that they where glad to get back to problems that they could reasonibly handle .
Rember that Power , that's power with a capital P always comes with a price , and the most powerfull weapon a char has isn't a huge great sword with a 20 strenght , it's there cunning plan that causes 2 evil nations to go to war .
Power Gaming has nothing to do with wanting a Magic Item of Whoopass +10. That's Munchkinism.
I wouldn't necessarily call it being a munchkin more just well...being a player. I mean, what adventure wouldn't want to go on a quest to get some powerful artifact? One of my players backstories was he was a cleric of Lothander seeking a holy relic called the shard of sunlight or something like that...in terms of actual artifact power it was pretty weak, just really good at destroying undead but as a cleric he was already more then capable of that. The character itself was far from optimized and focused solely on buffing/healing people and the player is about the furthest from either a powergamer or a munchkin.