Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 jadebrain Jul 26, 2009 18:30:28	Okay... So, in the campaign I'm playing in, there's an NPC necromancer who's been quite helpful (and willingly so) to the party. Unfortunately, necromancy is, well, illegal, and that could hurt our cause. So I'm thinking that I, or someone else, could act sort of as a therapist or something for the NPC, to help him try and find a better way to deal with life. General details about the NPC: -18 years old -Fairly intelligent for age -Hints of a slight ego problem, a bit manipulative of others -Entire family (noble) died within the past year, leaving only a rather shy servant who seems anxious around characters with magic powers, and knows much about history -Has (at least once) polymorphed other NPCs into domesticated animals and altered their minds, treated as pets Judging from this, I can only guess that the NPC in question is disturbed regarding the loss of his family, and has turned to necromancy to escape from the troubles of life. He has little social experience with friendly people, perhaps the servant as his only friend (the servant, I've observed, is more open with the NPC than anyone else, despite the NPC's profession), and the polymorphing could probably be a sign of a desperate need for interaction, even if it's not with a sentient being. None of the other players trust him, and this could jeopardize him, thus making him our enemy, or causing him to hurt our cause in some other way. My primary role in the party is that of a wizard; I cast spells, perform rituals, identify magic, and the like. As of level 15, I have an INT of 20, CHA of 18, and WIS of 14. As we are both magic characters, I can use arcana as a conversation piece, and I am trained in insight, but I have no training in social check-type skills. My goal is to get this guy out of necromancy, and into a legal class that wouldn't hurt our goal, possibly even getting him to stop turning the queen into a cat and getting the other players to trust him. How would you go about doing this?
#2 flipguarder Jul 26, 2009 18:43:18	Full metal Alchemist as already done this psycho-analyzation. Basically in the series Alchemy is sort of an arcane art that affects elements in any way imaginable. Two brothers lost their mother and learned alchemy in the hope of eventually being able to resurrect her through it. The main character is basically the one you described but with a little bit less overt evil in him. They learn during the over-arching storyline to deal with the loss of their mother in a more healthy way.
#3 jadebrain Jul 26, 2009 18:51:50	I actually haven't been able to confirm that the necromancer actually wants to bring his family back. It's a possibility, but the more likely cause of his choice of profession is that he's simply disturbed, and is using necromancy sort of as a drug to escape from reality. He's not necessarily evil, though. As stated, he is very cooperative, he even takes it upon himself to help us even when we don't ask, but right now our mission depends quite heavily on public relations, and having a necromancer just doesn't help.
#4 vaelan Jul 26, 2009 19:17:20	...public relations... May I suggest being big ol' liars, possibly to such an extent that your leggings spontaneously ignite? Isn't that the usual response to a public relations fiasco, or am I just being cynical? "No no, he isn't a necromancer. He's an illusionist! Very convincing seeming of a rotting corpse shambling about, isn't it? You must admit, he is very good at what he does."
#5 jadebrain Jul 26, 2009 19:38:30	May I suggest being big ol' liars, possibly to such an extent that your leggings spontaneously ignite? Isn't that the usual response to a public relations fiasco, or am I just being cynical? I dunno. The rest of the party, despite being technically either good- or lawful good-aligned, does covert operations where lying is common. But this guy, he's at best doing nothing to hide his profession, and at worst admitting it openly (and his noble descent may mean that word about him will spread fast), the logical deficiency pointing to a disturbed individual who may end up being our enemy some day, making matters even worse. As a team, we barely trust him, and we need as little negative interference from this guy as possible; personally, I think being a shrink to this guy would be a good roleplaying experience, and my character, being neutral good, is naturally going to consider how much this guy has contributed to the group, and his overall attitude and other factors, before he considers the guy's job when judging character. Lately I've been lacking in my own contributions to the group, and I think being this guy's shrink is a good idea to change that. One thing he is possibly trying to do, though, now that I think of it, is make necromancy legal, sort of as a personal agenda. We don't want that, and we don't want another enemy. Pretty much what I want, right now, is tips on how to roleplay this shrink role.
#6 Escef Jul 26, 2009 20:52:16	Trying to psychoanalyze an NPC is impossible. NPCs do not have a subconscious, they have whatever motivations the DM says they do. They do not have childhoods, they have backstory the DM made to justify whatever role they serve in the campaign. To "psychoanalyze" an NPC is basically to metagame. That being said, the character of this NPC is obviously very... tapped. I think he killed his family. The servant character could be an enabler. Or the servant could be behind everything and is setting the necro up for the fall, magical characters make the servant skittish because of fear of discovery by someone more likely to see through the ruse. But this is all conjecture.
#7 flipguarder Jul 26, 2009 21:01:14	aww thats a cute but naive way of looking at role-playing. as stupid as this sounds, the subconscious of the npc is the DM's subconscious. When he creates an NPC he makes decisions about its personality that don't always follow logic. If he makes a character with complicated motivations (which he obviously has done) he will almost always create a backstory or a reasoning about why this character does this. This is because when creating "people" (meaning not monsters, or demons or things that don't really have a human side to them) we (as people) don't like to think that people can do things without motivation. Even Evil NPCs will usually have a "reason" to why they are evil. You can seldom if ever ask a decent DM a question about what this npc would do in any situation and have them hesitate to give an answer. Thats all my opinion anyway.
#8 jadebrain Jul 26, 2009 21:51:55	Trying to psychoanalyze an NPC is impossible. NPCs do not have a subconscious, they have whatever motivations the DM says they do. They do not have childhoods, they have backstory the DM made to justify whatever role they serve in the campaign. I am quite well aware of this. I know that the character is about as real as any other character I deal with in the game (i.e., he's not). I'm just in it for the roleplaying experience, and, you know, making sure this guy doesn't turn on us. To "psychoanalyze" an NPC is basically to metagame. ...? Actually, I think I see what you're saying, that as a player doing psychoanalysis, I'd know more about this guy than my character knows. However, my character is smart enough (INT 20, remember) that any conclusions I make as myself can probably be made by my character. I am, after all, going solely by what my insight checks and observations tell me. The whole reason I don't mention the NPC's name is because someone might know of plot devices and such associated with him, and would reveal these things to me, making it very tempting to metagame. That being said, the character of this NPC is obviously very... tapped. I think he killed his family. The servant character could be an enabler. Or the servant could be behind everything and is setting the necro up for the fall, magical characters make the servant skittish because of fear of discovery by someone more likely to see through the ruse. Now that you mention it, the NPC in question doesn't seem to dwell on the death of his entire family like a normal person would. The event did occur rather recently, within the past year (in game, of course), and he seems indifferent to this fact (he even acts cheerful in certain, albeit unrelated, situations).
#9 Escef Jul 26, 2009 22:00:15	...? Actually, I think I see what you're saying, that as a player doing psychoanalysis, I'd know more about this guy than my character knows. What I was saying is that you'd have to guess what the DM was planning. You'd be looking at the game from outside the game. Psychoanalyzing the NPC is still trying to think in the game world. Guessing what the DM is planning takes one outside the game entirely. It's the difference between guessing what a character in a play is planning to do and guessing what the writer of the play is planning to happen. Edit: As a side, do some research on the psychology of serial killers.
#10 jadebrain Jul 26, 2009 22:14:58	aww thats a cute but naive way of looking at role-playing. as stupid as this sounds, the subconscious of the npc is the DM's subconscious. When he creates an NPC he makes decisions about its personality that don't always follow logic. If he makes a character with complicated motivations (which he obviously has done) he will almost always create a backstory or a reasoning about why this character does this. This much I know, but reminders now and then never hurt anybody. True, fictional characters, and sometimes even real people, can have illogical personalities. However, as said in my above post, I like to roleplay, and that's mainly why I'm doing this. This is because when creating "people" (meaning not monsters, or demons or things that don't really have a human side to them) we (as people) don't like to think that people can do things without motivation. Even Evil NPCs will usually have a "reason" to why they are evil. You can seldom if ever ask a decent DM a question about what this npc would do in any situation and have them hesitate to give an answer. Thats all my opinion anyway. Indeed. Although, that last part, the part starting with "You can seldom..." was a bit confusing.
#11 jadebrain Jul 26, 2009 22:23:08	What I was saying is that you'd have to guess what the DM was planning. You'd be looking at the game from outside the game. Psychoanalyzing the NPC is still trying to think in the game world. Guessing what the DM is planning takes one outside the game entirely. It's the difference between guessing what a character in a play is planning to do and guessing what the writer of the play is planning to happen. What? Oh! Hehe. I should have realized this earlier, given my past experiences with others' reactions to my own poor wording. That's not what I'm trying to do at all! By psychoanalysis, I meant that, I'm actually planning on having my character interact in-game with the NPC, and roleplay, in-game, the role of the NPC's therapist for a short while, trying to, in-game, convince the NPC to do something better with his life than necromancy. And that's what I need help with. 'Cause, you know, I enjoy roleplaying, but I never said I was good at it.:D Edit: As a side, do some research on the psychology of serial killers. Will do.
#12 flipguarder Jul 26, 2009 22:27:09	Indeed. Although, that last part, the part starting with "You can seldom..." was a bit confusing. I meant that last part as evidence that when DMs create NPCs they usually create more of a personality than even they realize.
#13 esperifiel Jul 27, 2009 2:46:53	Hmm, let me psychoanalyze as a DM... He's not disturbed. He's a perfectly well-balanced sociopath, gifted in matters arcane, a child savant, truly. His family just didn't see his brilliance, so he proved it. He's not lonely. He just likes to play with his prey, like a cat. Your entire party is weary of him because they see the very obvious danger. You, however, do not, because you are attracted to him -- to his power. Bringing him closer to you would make you more powerful. You are blind to the danger, like a moth to the flame. He's a wolf in sheep's clothing, and you are being plumped up for the slaughter... ;)
#14 jadebrain Jul 27, 2009 8:45:38	...because you are attracted to him -- to his power. Bringing him closer to you would make you more powerful. Power?!? Actually, I see where you're coming from. But no. I suppose, though, my own overly-trusting nature in real life is carrying over into what I think of this NPC. And the personality of my own PC. Besides, what powers could my character get from a necromancer that wouldn't hurt the party's reputation? My insight checks I made on this guy were quite successful (regarding DC), though they only revealed that he's a knowledgeable, if strange, person... !!! I SHOULD HAVE KNOWN! This guy is probably the DM's intended main villain of the campaign, just in a far-off sort of way that has nothing to do with the current mission!
#15 manduck Jul 27, 2009 9:12:14	Well the first thing I'd do is a little investigating. Ask around and find out how exactly this necromancer's family died. If they were murdered or attacked, I'd say you likely have your killer. If it was an accident, look into that too. I wouldn't get too personally involved with this guy until you know if you're being led to the slaughter. Serial killer research is a great suggestion. So you have two possible scenarios here: 1. He's a crazy killer. He took out his entire family. He shows no remorse about it and is often cheerful about his "victory". He turns people into animals, which shows his attituted of superiority and detachment. People are inferior to him (ego) and are just playthings without value. He's earing your trust by helping you out in his twisted game to make you his next victim. 2. He lost his family and cannot deal with it. Perhaps he sees necromancy as a way to get them all back. He turns people into animals for pets because he needs companionship but cannot bear the though of loosing more people. So he detaches himself from them to stay all nice and safe. His ego is a front for his damaged psyche so he can keep people at a distance. No relationships means he will not get hurt when they all die. So I'd launch a private investigation into his family's death. Ask around buy try to keep it on the down low. Check the graves of his family to see if he's animated them or if you can determine what happened to them. Ask the guards that may have been called to the scene as to what happened that night. Then slowly work things into a conversation to see how the necromancer reacts. Nothing about the investigation, mind you. Ask him about pictures of people in his home or items of particular interest. Does he carry anything special or unique that you've noticed? Does he dwell on certain things? Ask him about things in his home or personal effects that seem to be important to him. Basically, check this guy out to the best of your ability. I think your group is right on this one and he isn't entirely trustworthy. An evil character will still work with you if it suits their own ends. So tread lightly.
#16 jadebrain Jul 27, 2009 9:53:28	So I'd launch a private investigation into his family's death. Ask around buy try to keep it on the down low. Check the graves of his family to see if he's animated them or if you can determine what happened to them. Ask the guards that may have been called to the scene as to what happened that night. Then slowly work things into a conversation to see how the necromancer reacts. Nothing about the investigation, mind you. Ask him about pictures of people in his home or items of particular interest. Does he carry anything special or unique that you've noticed? Does he dwell on certain things? Ask him about things in his home or personal effects that seem to be important to him. Basically, check this guy out to the best of your ability. I think your group is right on this one and he isn't entirely trustworthy. I'm thinking of doing that. The de facto leader of our party has already tasked me with checking this guy out, hence the insight checks. Unfortunately, at the time being, a private investigation is out of the question. The current task for the party is restoring the rightful ruler of a nation to the throne through covert ops; meanwhile, the city we're in is under martial law, and riots are breaking out due to wars between the different noble houses. What I'm thinking of right now, though, is that I'll wait until our task is done, and order is restored. When the rest of the party leaves, I'll opt to stay on my own for a while, and then have our own version of the Flash (he can, at times, run up to 17 squares in one move action) transport to me drawings of the teleportation circles of the cities they go to, allowing me to use Linked Portal to rejoin the party when I'm done. Then, I'll go to Silverymoon to buy some rituals (Forbiddance and Consult Oracle, specifically), and then back to Suzail to do the sleuth work. I'll cast forbiddance so the necromancer doesn't know what I'm doing, and Consult Oracle in case I'm unable to find information without a ritual. I might even get some streetwise training when I level up. But I'll have to inform our de facto leader that I'll need money. Now, as a DM, would you allow forbiddance to be cast on a portable item, instead of an area, so I can "transport" the ritual?
#17 jadebrain Jul 28, 2009 8:32:35	...Forbiddance and Consult Oracle, specifically... Uhh, never mind. I just looked at the level requirements, and I'm not so sure I'll be able to cast them... Crap. Looks like I'll need an excuse to get our espionage expert/master of disguise to stay behind with me. Forbiddance could just be replaced with Eye of Warning.
#18 manion Jul 28, 2009 8:45:39	However, my character is smart enough (INT 20, remember) Ahh. I would like to note that if your character is smart, he would avoid psychoanalysis altogether. The particular field of psychology started by Freud is not what I would consider the smart choice.
#19 jadebrain Jul 28, 2009 12:09:03	Ahh. I would like to note that if your character is smart, he would avoid psychoanalysis altogether. The particular field of psychology started by Freud is not what I would consider the smart choice. Really? I was just thinking psychology in general; I'm not gonna do dream analysis or any of that on this guy. But why is Freudian psychology, in particular, not a good choice? And what should I do instead? Hmm... By the way, I was able to do some eavesdropping on a conversation between him and his servant. Apparently, necromancy isn't quite a family business, in that necromancers are particularly rare in the family. Somehow, in mentioning this fact to him, I think that, perhaps, the servant is trying to convince him not to continue necromancy; furthermore, if this is correct, the servant at least thinks, if not actually knows, that the necromancer didn't kill his own family, due to the implication that he still has enough respect for his family that the facts mentioned would matter. Or, while I didn't quite pick up anything of the sort, if the necromancer did kill his family, the servant would be mentioning to him those facts to reinforce his job choice. As mentioned before, I'll have to figure out just what happened to his family before making any conclusions.