Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 thebisra Apr 08, 2009 19:27:16	Does the Wizard spell Summon Undead (I-V) grant the caster full controll over the summoned undead, despite the fact that, say, skeletons cannot understand languages? It reads that it functions as the spell Summon Monster (I-V) which states that if the caster can communicate with the creature, s/he can give the creature orders.
#2 Zherog Apr 08, 2009 19:37:41	I think you answered your own question, to be honest. Without a way to communicate with the summoned undead, you have to resort to this: It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. Without the ability to communicate, it's just going to mindlessly attack your nearest enemy.
#3 thebisra Apr 08, 2009 19:39:19	Then how does it know what my enemies are without the means to communicate with it?
#4 Zherog Apr 08, 2009 19:45:39	*shrug* It's part of the spell. How does a dire rat (summonable with summon nature's ally I) know who/what your enemies are? The text of the spell allows the summoned creature to know who to attack. It still can't use tactics (if it's unintelligent) and can't do anything "special" if you can't direct it.
#5 thebisra Apr 08, 2009 19:47:47	One would think that the summon spell would impart to the caster the means to command the creature, through the magic that binds the creature to him, even temporarily.
#6 yrogerg Apr 09, 2009 9:42:10	Then how does it know what my enemies are without the means to communicate with it? How does magic missile "know" whether or not something is a creature and therefore a valid target? How does contingency "know" when the triggering event occurs? It's one of those cases where the spell imparts the necessary knowledge to do what it needs to do, because the spell is quasi-intelligent in that way. After all, with Summon spells in particular, the creature is modified as it is brought in anyway, and doesn't really exist in its true form (which is both a hand-wave to explain why they're compelled to follow you and can't summon others, and also a dodge on the whole moral issue of summoning good-aligned creatures to randomly die for you- albiet an irrelevant one where undead are involved), so it's hardly a stretch to imagine that it identifies "enemies" for the creature automatically, as well.
#7 MrCustomer Apr 09, 2009 15:21:07	One would think that the summon spell would impart to the caster the means to command the creature, through the magic that binds the creature to him, even temporarily. Exactly so. The summoned creature obeys the commands of it's master even though it doesn't understand the language, the orders given compels the magical energies that control the creature rather then the creature itself. When Summon Monster refers to if the caster can communicate with the creature, it doesn't mean if the caster can speak their language, but rather if the creature can hear the commands (or any other form of communication, sign language would require line of sight) or the summoner is able to give orders (for example, the wizard might be too busy to give the summoned creature orders, as he is casting other spells, or otherwise unable to speak)
#8 Zherog Apr 09, 2009 15:39:00	I disagree, Mr. C. And I think the official FAQ backs me up. Can the caster command a summoned creature to make special attacks, such as bull rushing or grappling? What about commanding it to deal nonlethal damage? Yes. As long as the caster is capable of communicating to the summoned creature, and as long as the creature is capable of carrying out the commanded action, the caster can give any command he wants and the summoned creature will attempt to carry it out. If the spell automatically allowed the caster to communicate, Skip/Andy wouldn't have had to say, "As long as the caster is capable of communicating..."
#9 yrogerg Apr 09, 2009 15:52:44	I disagree, Mr. C. And I think the official FAQ backs me up. If the spell automatically allowed the caster to communicate, Skip/Andy wouldn't have had to say, "As long as the caster is capable of communicating..." Or, perhaps more accurately, they would have only said that 'as long as the caster is capable of communicating', rather than specifying that the caster need be able communicate with the summoned creature, specifically. It seems odd that, when care had been taken to indicate what language each and every creature in the monster manual could speak and understand, and in a game with abilities like Tongues, Handle Animal, and Gnomes' ability to communicate with burrowing animals, specifically, to assume that a common means of communication is assumed, and that "If the caster can communicate with the summoned creature" refers not to shared language or other means of communicating, but rather to circumstances and being able to be seen/heard. Particularly since they could have easily said, "as long as the summoned creature can see or hear the caster", in the latter case.
#10 amo_angelus Apr 12, 2009 10:00:05	Both arguments work well. On the one hand it doesn't specify that the castor needs to be able to speak the creatures language to the creature, and as such any form of communication is viable. Instances when the castor can't communicate can still happen, for example...your character can only sign and is busy. Your character suddenly finds themselves gagged, your character suddenly gets K/Od On the other hand, communication generally refers to speach. So if you can't make yourself be heard and understood then you can't tell the creature what to do. I think the best method is to discuss with your GM the possibilities as it is rather open ended. Decide as a group what it means by comunication and use that description as a house standard as there are probably more than this one spell effected by your translation.
#11 MrCustomer Apr 13, 2009 23:43:01	I disagree, Mr. C. And I think the official FAQ backs me up. If the spell automatically allowed the caster to communicate, Skip/Andy wouldn't have had to say, "As long as the caster is capable of communicating..." Yes. As long as the caster is capable of communicating to the summoned creature, and as long as the creature is capable of carrying out the commanded action, the caster can give any command he wants and the summoned creature will attempt to carry it out. I highlighted the phrase "communicating to" for a reason. Because there is a difference between communicating to and communicating with. With would accurately imply that the caster needs to speak a language that the creature could understand, To implies only that the caster's communication must reach the creature. Communicating to only requires that the caster's communicatin will reach the creature. A caster who is under a cone of sillence cannot communicate an order to the creature, a Caster on a boat who summons a shark in the water cannot communicate with the shark while it is under water. Moreover, "must be able to speak the language of the creature in order for it to understand orders" is a very specific requirement that the rules would have mentioned and been alot more specific about if that was it's intent and meaning. The fact that non-inteligent summoned creatures refer to the Summon Monster spell only further supports that the rules did not intend to mean specific language requirements were needed to give orders.
#12 Arcane_Guyver Apr 14, 2009 4:12:38	Does the Wizard spell Summon Undead (I-V) grant the caster full controll over the summoned undead, despite the fact that, say, skeletons cannot understand languages? Where do you get the idea that skeletons cannot understand languages? A skeleton does only what it is ordered to do. ... Because of this limitation, its instructions must always be simple, such as "Kill anyone who enters this chamber." ..and.. Because of their utter lack of intelligence, the instructions given to a ... zombie must be very simple, such as "Kill anyone who enters this room." I bet there's more on controlling mindless undead in Heroes of Horror, but, by core, undead can apparently follow simple instructions. It's actually easier to manipulate these summoned creatures than animals (which requires a speak with animals effect).