Question about high AC's - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Question about high AC's

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
cheesybacon
Jul 29, 2010 19:36:16 This campaign is the first time me or any of my friends have played D&D, and I am the DM. I have a question about high AC's.

The players in my campaign got in a fight with a lizardfolk. With armor, sheild, dex, and natural armor combined it has an AC of 22. This creature is only supposed to have a Challenge rating of 1, maybe 2 at most because it has extra armor, but it is impossible for any of the players to hit except with a critical hit.

Everyone in the campaign is level 2 at this point, and they have pretty high AC's too (17, 18, 19), and the fights just seem to drag on with people rolling d20's and not hitting.

I don't know if I am doing something wrong, because that was just aggrivating. It seems like the attack bonus should be higher, but the highest attack bonus for any of the players is d20+1 (when you include STR mod, base attack bonus and take away the armor check penalty), and one of them even has d20-2 because of armor check penalty.
#2
salla
Jul 29, 2010 19:42:23 Since you say 'challenge rating' and 'natural armor', this is obviously a 3e game. So ...

Armor check penalty on attack rolls? Nobody's wearing armor that they're actually proficient with?

Well, there's your problem, all your PCs are idiots wearing armor they don't know how to wear.
#3
cheesybacon
Jul 29, 2010 19:46:50 They only take armor check penalty if they aren't proficient? Is this just in combat or does it work with skills too?
#4
salla
Jul 29, 2010 19:52:31
They only take armor check penalty if they aren't proficient? Is this just in combat or does it work with skills too?

From the SRD:
Armor Check Penalty

Any armor heavier than leather hurts a character’s ability to use some skills. An armor check penalty number is the penalty that applies to Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Sleight of Hand, and Tumble checks by a character wearing a certain kind of armor. Double the normal armor check penalty is applied to Swim checks. A character’s encumbrance (the amount of gear carried, including armor) may also apply an armor check penalty.

...

Nonproficient with Armor Worn
A character who wears armor and/or uses a shield with which he or she is not proficient takes the armor’s (and/or shield’s) armor check penalty on attack rolls and on all Strength-based and Dexterity-based ability and skill checks. The penalty for nonproficiency with armor stacks with the penalty for nonproficiency with shields.

Yes, you only take the armor check penalty to attacks if you aren't proficient with the armor you're wearing.
#5
cheesybacon
Jul 29, 2010 19:54:33 Ok thanks. That makes a lot more sense.
#6
Mysteria
Jul 30, 2010 4:23:51 And the basic lizardfolk in the MM has Dex of 10 (+0 bonus), does not wear armour and usually doesn't even carry a shield. The base AC of that one is 15 or 17, not 22.
#7
beowuuf
Jul 31, 2010 10:29:36 If the ACP removal doens't solve everything, remember combat tactics - knocking opponents prone for bonuses to attack, flank for +2, aid another for +2, grapple for some blugeoning damage that ignores armour, bullrush opponents into damaging terrain, etc.

#8
wizarddog
Jul 31, 2010 17:45:21 Don't know the make up of your party but even a 2nd level fighter with weapon focus and a 16 strength should be getting a +5 to hit. (Str +2, BAB +2, WF +1). That woulkd at least give you a 17 or better to hit.

A Barbarian raging would get an additional +2. So workout your rules and math.

Sometimes the DM is going to put foes against you that attacking with weapons is not going to work well. Not necessarily balanced, but well within the areas of the challenge; giving your the DM the benefit of the doubt he /she knows what they are doing--but the armor penalties show me otherwise...

Your strategy may have to change. You obviously can't go toe to toe with the monsters; they are too well equip. You need to change how you start your encounters; perhaps leading them into an ambush, using more spells to give you the advantage, setting up traps, finding allies to aid you, and even hit and run tactics. If you have a rogue in the party, get them in flanking position, use the aid other and let them sneak attack the buggers--they will go down faster.

Real Lizardmen (assuming theseae not some other creatures) are also neutral, so you might be able to talk to them, if that is the focus of your adventure.
#9
damixmastermike
Aug 07, 2010 11:00:16 What about Spellcasters? There are three classes in the PH that can't cast spells! Have the sor/wizard in the party do something terrible; this opponent clearly has a terrible touch AC for spells :P
#10
CroBob
Aug 08, 2010 0:40:32 This being your first time playing, try not to alter the standard monsters too much. Do only what's necessary. If they have a magic item they can use they probably won't just leave it in a pile in the corner of their lair, but besides usable loot and spells for creatures that can use them, try not to alter the monsters until you have a better grasp of the rules.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 cheesybacon Jul 29, 2010 19:36:16	This campaign is the first time me or any of my friends have played D&D, and I am the DM. I have a question about high AC's. The players in my campaign got in a fight with a lizardfolk. With armor, sheild, dex, and natural armor combined it has an AC of 22. This creature is only supposed to have a Challenge rating of 1, maybe 2 at most because it has extra armor, but it is impossible for any of the players to hit except with a critical hit. Everyone in the campaign is level 2 at this point, and they have pretty high AC's too (17, 18, 19), and the fights just seem to drag on with people rolling d20's and not hitting. I don't know if I am doing something wrong, because that was just aggrivating. It seems like the attack bonus should be higher, but the highest attack bonus for any of the players is d20+1 (when you include STR mod, base attack bonus and take away the armor check penalty), and one of them even has d20-2 because of armor check penalty.
#2 salla Jul 29, 2010 19:42:23	Since you say 'challenge rating' and 'natural armor', this is obviously a 3e game. So ... Armor check penalty on attack rolls? Nobody's wearing armor that they're actually proficient with? Well, there's your problem, all your PCs are idiots wearing armor they don't know how to wear.
#3 cheesybacon Jul 29, 2010 19:46:50	They only take armor check penalty if they aren't proficient? Is this just in combat or does it work with skills too?
#4 salla Jul 29, 2010 19:52:31	They only take armor check penalty if they aren't proficient? Is this just in combat or does it work with skills too? From the SRD: Armor Check Penalty Any armor heavier than leather hurts a character’s ability to use some skills. An armor check penalty number is the penalty that applies to Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Sleight of Hand, and Tumble checks by a character wearing a certain kind of armor. Double the normal armor check penalty is applied to Swim checks. A character’s encumbrance (the amount of gear carried, including armor) may also apply an armor check penalty. ... Nonproficient with Armor Worn A character who wears armor and/or uses a shield with which he or she is not proficient takes the armor’s (and/or shield’s) armor check penalty on attack rolls and on all Strength-based and Dexterity-based ability and skill checks. The penalty for nonproficiency with armor stacks with the penalty for nonproficiency with shields. Yes, you only take the armor check penalty to attacks if you aren't proficient with the armor you're wearing.
#5 cheesybacon Jul 29, 2010 19:54:33	Ok thanks. That makes a lot more sense.
#6 Mysteria Jul 30, 2010 4:23:51	And the basic lizardfolk in the MM has Dex of 10 (+0 bonus), does not wear armour and usually doesn't even carry a shield. The base AC of that one is 15 or 17, not 22.
#7 beowuuf Jul 31, 2010 10:29:36	If the ACP removal doens't solve everything, remember combat tactics - knocking opponents prone for bonuses to attack, flank for +2, aid another for +2, grapple for some blugeoning damage that ignores armour, bullrush opponents into damaging terrain, etc.
#8 wizarddog Jul 31, 2010 17:45:21	Don't know the make up of your party but even a 2nd level fighter with weapon focus and a 16 strength should be getting a +5 to hit. (Str +2, BAB +2, WF +1). That woulkd at least give you a 17 or better to hit. A Barbarian raging would get an additional +2. So workout your rules and math. Sometimes the DM is going to put foes against you that attacking with weapons is not going to work well. Not necessarily balanced, but well within the areas of the challenge; giving your the DM the benefit of the doubt he /she knows what they are doing--but the armor penalties show me otherwise... Your strategy may have to change. You obviously can't go toe to toe with the monsters; they are too well equip. You need to change how you start your encounters; perhaps leading them into an ambush, using more spells to give you the advantage, setting up traps, finding allies to aid you, and even hit and run tactics. If you have a rogue in the party, get them in flanking position, use the aid other and let them sneak attack the buggers--they will go down faster. Real Lizardmen (assuming theseae not some other creatures) are also neutral, so you might be able to talk to them, if that is the focus of your adventure.
#9 damixmastermike Aug 07, 2010 11:00:16	What about Spellcasters? There are three classes in the PH that can't cast spells! Have the sor/wizard in the party do something terrible; this opponent clearly has a terrible touch AC for spells :P
#10 CroBob Aug 08, 2010 0:40:32	This being your first time playing, try not to alter the standard monsters too much. Do only what's necessary. If they have a magic item they can use they probably won't just leave it in a pile in the corner of their lair, but besides usable loot and spells for creatures that can use them, try not to alter the monsters until you have a better grasp of the rules.