Question on epic spells and other stuff - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Question on epic spells and other stuff

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Beowulf_gr
May 14, 2008 14:17:44 Hello there.

I have a question about the development of epic spells. Is it possible to reduce the final spellcraft DC as much as u want? Can u bring it down to 0 for example? Wouldn't that mean that basically you research the spell instantenously which doesnt make any sense to me...

My second question is about soul harvesting. Our party just got back from an adventure in the second layer of the nine hells where inevitably we saw that they harvested souls and heard that this makes them stronger somehow. So we wanna do it too. :p Are there any game mechanics for something like that anywhere?

Thanks a lot
#2
draconsnighthawk
May 14, 2008 23:55:28 1: Just do the Fortify trick. Lower SR by the most, (Remember, Fortify gives +27 SR, but each -1 to SR, lowers the Spellcraft by -2. So you could easy have a -52 check, for a seed the costs base 25. So 25-52=-27. Yay! Add high damage, and large radius. You could destroy the entire cosmos of the universe.

2: Ehhh,... I belive one of the Fiendish Codexs have rules on that. I think it has to deal with how many HD the soul has.
#3
logicninja
May 15, 2008 2:22:15 Yes, you can bring it down to 0. Yes, that makes it instant. But you know what?

Epic Spellcasting is the worst thing ever written for the game. Yes, worse than Manipulate Form, because people know better than to use Manipulate Form.

Epic Spellcasting isn't even broken, it's just not workable. You basically have to have the DM decide what is and isn't an OK spell, at which point why do you have a system for it in the first place? Just let the DM tell you what you can do.

Epic play is broken anyway, but Epic Spellcasting just shatters everything to pieces. Don't use it. If you're playing epic, ask the DM to ban it.
#4
green_yawgmoth
May 15, 2008 14:43:27
Epic Spellcasting isn't even broken, it's just not workable. You basically have to have the DM decide what is and isn't an OK spell, at which point why do you have a system for it in the first place? Just let the DM tell you what you can do.

Lemme grab my suit and Al Pacino for a sec. *grab* Okay, ready to play devil's advocate.

Epic Spellcasting is nice as a system because it gives the players an idea of what to do with their epic spells, and how to balance (larf) them out if the effect is too powerful. It's a lot like magic item production, in the way that a DM plays a big part in it and needs to be on his toes to stop things like the fortify trick.
#5
logicninja
May 15, 2008 15:13:33
Lemme grab my suit and Al Pacino for a sec. *grab* Okay, ready to play devil's advocate.

Epic Spellcasting is nice as a system because it gives the players an idea of what to do with their epic spells, and how to balance (larf) them out if the effect is too powerful. It's a lot like magic item production, in the way that a DM plays a big part in it and needs to be on his toes to stop things like the fortify trick.

It's not even stupid stuff like the Fortify trick.
It's note even things like Epic Leadership and spell-slot sacrifices.

One of the first things a wizard will think to do with the system... after making a ward against Disjunction... is to boost his INT.
Which will also boost his Spellcraft. Which will let him make/cast better epic spells... which will boost his INT further.
God forbid he goes directly to making spells that boost Spellcraft.

Epic Spellcasting isn't nice as a system in any way. It doesn't work. It is more reliant on the DM than if the PC were just to homebrew "epic spells" from scratch.
#6
tequila_sunrise
May 15, 2008 16:35:52 LogicNinja has the right of it. Epic spell seeds are usually either completely useless or insanely powerful. As a result, creating balanced epic spells requires the DM to ad-hoc every step of the process. So why even bother introducing a whole new system for the DM to learn when there's already a perfectly good one already in place (spell levels)?

In most games, it's better to simply use metamagic to improve epic casters. I myself have started a Spell Book of spells that are not only better balanced at pre-epic but make it balanced to continue spell level progression into epic levels.

TS
#7
green_yawgmoth
May 15, 2008 17:44:12 I'd continue arguing but I know that everyone on these forums has nothing but contempt for skill-based systems, and thus wouldn't listen even if I ressurected Abraham Lincoln to write a post describing how it can be very useful as a basic tool for making spells in general, rather than "I use maximize and empower. ooooooh."
#8
tequila_sunrise
May 15, 2008 20:07:39
I'd continue arguing but I know that everyone on these forums has nothing but contempt for skill-based systems, and thus wouldn't listen even if I ressurected Abraham Lincoln to write a post describing how it can be very useful as a basic tool for making spells in general, rather than "I use maximize and empower. ooooooh."

In theory, the epic spell system is a great idea. Having a set of definite rules for creating just about any spell you can think of is a whole lot more useful than leaving DMs to compare their homebrew spells to the vast array of published spells. One of my biggest complaints about D&D is the complete lack of cohesion and consistency when it comes to spells. The problem is that the designers of the ELH seriously fracked up. In D&D, skills are just too easy to unbalance via feats, items and spells themselves. Especially at epic levels, the sheer range of skill modifiers possible from player to player and group to group makes the skill mechanic an incredibly poor basis for such an important system like spell casting.

Theoretically, epic spell casting can be house ruled to actually work the way it was supposed to. That might suit other gamers just fine, but I like to stick to one consistent system throughout the levels.

TS
#9
darczero
May 24, 2008 10:04:22
Theoretically, epic spell casting can be house ruled to actually work the way it was supposed to. That might suit other gamers just fine, but I like to stick to one consistent system throughout the levels.
TS

Exactly. Epic Spells as written are barely worth it, but a few simple adjustments, and a DM who at least reads through the players' proposed spells, make the system viable again.

First, make Epic Spells not static. The single biggest drawback to epic spells is that they are fixed once researched, and can only be improved upon by completely redoing the entire process, including money, xp, and time. Use your own best judgment as a DM to come up with a system that allows the players to have access to epic spells that scale with them at a reasonable pace.

Time requirements for spell research basically means that one or two players in the group are going to require large amounts of downtime to gain such abilities. An average epic spell DC for a 25th level caster should be around 40 or so, meaning 8 full days of research. Not much, unless the fate of the world is on the line, as it usually is at epic levels.

Any sane DM is probably not going to allow any player to throw on useless seeds just to reduce the cost by applying meaningless modifiers, like the SR adjustments thing. And, in the case of "I research an Epic spell to increase my Intelligence" remember the rules about stacking bonuses, and durations, and the rules about spell research; the maximum Inherent bonus to any single ability score is still 5 at epic levels, the only bonus to an ability score that can be made permanent is an Inherent bonus, and to get the 8 day (192 hour) duration necessary for that 40 DC epic spell research time, they can manage a +6 enhancement bonus to their Intelligence score because of the required duration increases. Non-epic magic items provide such bonuses.
#10
squibthepirate
May 25, 2008 1:33:12 As far as the Soul Harvesting Question, The only thing I can find is in the BoVD pg.33. This explains a little bit about it and points you to chapter 6 for using souls as spell components.
#11
manic_man
May 25, 2008 5:01:57 If you're using epic spellcasting as written, don't bother about balance.
The idea is great but with any system that lets you pick and choose, its very easy to break (flaws comes to mind).

If you really must use it, at least remove the instaneous effect applied to stat boosters. That at least makes it somewhat dispellable.

If you have guys using epic leadership to donate spell slots, you're pretty much stuck with ridicolusly low DCs to create new spells.

Alternatively if you have not houseruled simulacrum and/or ice assassin and some bright fella comes along, you don't even need leadership to do it

Overall, the system requires too much DM time to scrutinise the spell to make it worth while.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Beowulf_gr May 14, 2008 14:17:44	Hello there. I have a question about the development of epic spells. Is it possible to reduce the final spellcraft DC as much as u want? Can u bring it down to 0 for example? Wouldn't that mean that basically you research the spell instantenously which doesnt make any sense to me... My second question is about soul harvesting. Our party just got back from an adventure in the second layer of the nine hells where inevitably we saw that they harvested souls and heard that this makes them stronger somehow. So we wanna do it too. :p Are there any game mechanics for something like that anywhere? Thanks a lot
#2 draconsnighthawk May 14, 2008 23:55:28	1: Just do the Fortify trick. Lower SR by the most, (Remember, Fortify gives +27 SR, but each -1 to SR, lowers the Spellcraft by -2. So you could easy have a -52 check, for a seed the costs base 25. So 25-52=-27. Yay! Add high damage, and large radius. You could destroy the entire cosmos of the universe. 2: Ehhh,... I belive one of the Fiendish Codexs have rules on that. I think it has to deal with how many HD the soul has.
#3 logicninja May 15, 2008 2:22:15	Yes, you can bring it down to 0. Yes, that makes it instant. But you know what? Epic Spellcasting is the worst thing ever written for the game. Yes, worse than Manipulate Form, because people know better than to use Manipulate Form. Epic Spellcasting isn't even broken, it's just not workable. You basically have to have the DM decide what is and isn't an OK spell, at which point why do you have a system for it in the first place? Just let the DM tell you what you can do. Epic play is broken anyway, but Epic Spellcasting just shatters everything to pieces. Don't use it. If you're playing epic, ask the DM to ban it.
#4 green_yawgmoth May 15, 2008 14:43:27	Epic Spellcasting isn't even broken, it's just not workable. You basically have to have the DM decide what is and isn't an OK spell, at which point why do you have a system for it in the first place? Just let the DM tell you what you can do. Lemme grab my suit and Al Pacino for a sec. grab Okay, ready to play devil's advocate. Epic Spellcasting is nice as a system because it gives the players an idea of what to do with their epic spells, and how to balance (larf) them out if the effect is too powerful. It's a lot like magic item production, in the way that a DM plays a big part in it and needs to be on his toes to stop things like the fortify trick.
#5 logicninja May 15, 2008 15:13:33	Lemme grab my suit and Al Pacino for a sec. grab Okay, ready to play devil's advocate. Epic Spellcasting is nice as a system because it gives the players an idea of what to do with their epic spells, and how to balance (larf) them out if the effect is too powerful. It's a lot like magic item production, in the way that a DM plays a big part in it and needs to be on his toes to stop things like the fortify trick. It's not even stupid stuff like the Fortify trick. It's note even things like Epic Leadership and spell-slot sacrifices. One of the first things a wizard will think to do with the system... after making a ward against Disjunction... is to boost his INT. Which will also boost his Spellcraft. Which will let him make/cast better epic spells... which will boost his INT further. God forbid he goes directly to making spells that boost Spellcraft. Epic Spellcasting isn't nice as a system in any way. It doesn't work. It is more reliant on the DM than if the PC were just to homebrew "epic spells" from scratch.
#6 tequila_sunrise May 15, 2008 16:35:52	LogicNinja has the right of it. Epic spell seeds are usually either completely useless or insanely powerful. As a result, creating balanced epic spells requires the DM to ad-hoc every step of the process. So why even bother introducing a whole new system for the DM to learn when there's already a perfectly good one already in place (spell levels)? In most games, it's better to simply use metamagic to improve epic casters. I myself have started a Spell Book of spells that are not only better balanced at pre-epic but make it balanced to continue spell level progression into epic levels. TS
#7 green_yawgmoth May 15, 2008 17:44:12	I'd continue arguing but I know that everyone on these forums has nothing but contempt for skill-based systems, and thus wouldn't listen even if I ressurected Abraham Lincoln to write a post describing how it can be very useful as a basic tool for making spells in general, rather than "I use maximize and empower. ooooooh."
#8 tequila_sunrise May 15, 2008 20:07:39	I'd continue arguing but I know that everyone on these forums has nothing but contempt for skill-based systems, and thus wouldn't listen even if I ressurected Abraham Lincoln to write a post describing how it can be very useful as a basic tool for making spells in general, rather than "I use maximize and empower. ooooooh." In theory, the epic spell system is a great idea. Having a set of definite rules for creating just about any spell you can think of is a whole lot more useful than leaving DMs to compare their homebrew spells to the vast array of published spells. One of my biggest complaints about D&D is the complete lack of cohesion and consistency when it comes to spells. The problem is that the designers of the ELH seriously fracked up. In D&D, skills are just too easy to unbalance via feats, items and spells themselves. Especially at epic levels, the sheer range of skill modifiers possible from player to player and group to group makes the skill mechanic an incredibly poor basis for such an important system like spell casting. Theoretically, epic spell casting can be house ruled to actually work the way it was supposed to. That might suit other gamers just fine, but I like to stick to one consistent system throughout the levels. TS
#9 darczero May 24, 2008 10:04:22	Theoretically, epic spell casting can be house ruled to actually work the way it was supposed to. That might suit other gamers just fine, but I like to stick to one consistent system throughout the levels. TS Exactly. Epic Spells as written are barely worth it, but a few simple adjustments, and a DM who at least reads through the players' proposed spells, make the system viable again. First, make Epic Spells not static. The single biggest drawback to epic spells is that they are fixed once researched, and can only be improved upon by completely redoing the entire process, including money, xp, and time. Use your own best judgment as a DM to come up with a system that allows the players to have access to epic spells that scale with them at a reasonable pace. Time requirements for spell research basically means that one or two players in the group are going to require large amounts of downtime to gain such abilities. An average epic spell DC for a 25th level caster should be around 40 or so, meaning 8 full days of research. Not much, unless the fate of the world is on the line, as it usually is at epic levels. Any sane DM is probably not going to allow any player to throw on useless seeds just to reduce the cost by applying meaningless modifiers, like the SR adjustments thing. And, in the case of "I research an Epic spell to increase my Intelligence" remember the rules about stacking bonuses, and durations, and the rules about spell research; the maximum Inherent bonus to any single ability score is still 5 at epic levels, the only bonus to an ability score that can be made permanent is an Inherent bonus, and to get the 8 day (192 hour) duration necessary for that 40 DC epic spell research time, they can manage a +6 enhancement bonus to their Intelligence score because of the required duration increases. Non-epic magic items provide such bonuses.
#10 squibthepirate May 25, 2008 1:33:12	As far as the Soul Harvesting Question, The only thing I can find is in the BoVD pg.33. This explains a little bit about it and points you to chapter 6 for using souls as spell components.
#11 manic_man May 25, 2008 5:01:57	If you're using epic spellcasting as written, don't bother about balance. The idea is great but with any system that lets you pick and choose, its very easy to break (flaws comes to mind). If you really must use it, at least remove the instaneous effect applied to stat boosters. That at least makes it somewhat dispellable. If you have guys using epic leadership to donate spell slots, you're pretty much stuck with ridicolusly low DCs to create new spells. Alternatively if you have not houseruled simulacrum and/or ice assassin and some bright fella comes along, you don't even need leadership to do it Overall, the system requires too much DM time to scrutinise the spell to make it worth while.