Question on the DMG Mini module - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Question on the DMG Mini module

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Jan 11, 2009 10:12:47 Ok my group is trying to adapt to 4.o and our GM ran the mini module from the DMG last nite.

The first three rooms are fairly straight forward, but the fourth room decimated us. One character died, the remaining ones were down to their last surge, before the Wyrmpriest died. I am only surprised that noone was run over by the rolling boulder. (Further note: both slingers and the drake fled when the priest died. The slingers were bloodied, the drake hadn't been hit.)

The party concisted of the following:
Dragonborn CHR paladin: me, also the one who died. I ran out of surges and missed all three death saves in a row.
Tiefling CHR warlord
Human greatsword fighter
Human cleric
Human "thug" rogue, he works graveyard shifts and had to leave prior to the fourth room. Not sure what he would have done anyway, his only thought is self preservation regardless what class he plays.
We also have a mage, but his wife was sick and he didn't come to the game. So we lost out on the potencial of ranged spells.

We had problems with the Kobold glue slingers for all four rooms. Two characters were stuck in the door opening for 5-6 rounds before they made the save. The other two made it to the dragonshields and were almost never missed, between them and the small drake they were burning thru the clerics pitiful healing faster than I have ever seen.

So the question I am asking is this mini module supposed to be that deadly? I know my GM has a streak where he really wont miss from time to time but this felt like somthing else. We couldn't get into range and he couldnt miss.
#2
Escef
Jan 11, 2009 17:46:04 Sounds to me like a combination of bad rolls and players not willing to retreat.
#3
nowiwantmydmg
Jan 12, 2009 11:53:21
Ok my group is trying to adapt to 4.o and our GM ran the mini module from the DMG last nite.

The first two rooms are fairly straight forward, but the third room decimated us. One character died, the remaining ones were down to their last surge, before the Wyrmpriest died. I am only surprised that noone was run over by the rolling boulder.

The party concisted of the following:
Dragonborn CHR paladin: me, also the one who died. I ran out of surges and missed all three death saves in a row.
Tiefling CHR warlord
Human greatsword fighter
Human cleric
Human "thug" rogue, he works graveyard shifts and had to leave prior to the third room. Not sure what he would have done anyway, his only thought is self preservation regardless what class he plays.
We also have a mage, but his wife was sick and he didn't come to the game. So we lost out on the potencial of ranged spells.

We had problems with the Kobold glue slingers for all three rooms. Two caharcters were stuck in the door opening for 5-6 rounds before they made the save. The other two made it to the dragonshields and were almost never missed, between them and the small drake they were burning thru the clerics pitiful healing faster than I have ever seen.

So the question I am asking is this mini module supposed to be that deadly? I know my GM has a streak where he really wont miss from time to time but this felt like somthing else. We couldn't get into range and he couldnt miss.

Clerics can grant saving throws.... as do several warlord powers. Both of them can also heal in addition to the Paladin's lay on hands and the party's second winds, you should have had lots of healing. Healing others is also a minor action so combat actions are still possible on the same turn.

Teamwork is an essential part of combat now, no one can successfully "go it alone" anymore. Defenders need to remember their marks at all times.
#4
daeros_dup
Jan 12, 2009 12:11:03
So the question I am asking is this mini module supposed to be that deadly? I know my GM has a streak where he really wont miss from time to time but this felt like somthing else. We couldn't get into range and he couldnt miss.

It's probably not SUPPOSED to be that deadly, but so far WotC has had a terrible time making 4e encounters that actually work well. In Keep on the Shadowfell at one point a group of level 1 PCs are forced to fight a level 6 encounter - and that's assuming they don't pull two seperate encounters at the same time, which is very possible the way the area is set up. In the FR campaign book, theres a level 1 adventure with a pit trap that does 2d10 damage as it drops the PCs into a room with a level 4 encounter in it and knocks them prone. In other words - the mage could potentially be unconsious and dying before the level 4 combat even starts. And any party member that DIDN'T fall into the trap takes a while to get to the stairs to join the party members who did - all of whom will die in the meantime versus an encounter 3 levels above their own.

I don't understand why WotC has this problem with encounter design, or why they don't believe in playtesting, but suffice to say what happened to you was probably not entirely your groups fault.
#5
Shiftkitty
Jan 12, 2009 14:56:53 Was this "Skull-Skull"? That was the room that gave my party the most trouble. They (my guys) made a lot of classic mistakes in that whole module, but it was a player-training session for us, so we expected it. There were parts of that whole dungeon that really gave us a run for our money even before meeting the dragon. In fact, they had actually suffered a TPK, but I decided to show mercy and had them simply unconcious. (I wanted to keep playing and see how a few other things worked.) They woke up in the dragon room and had to fight their way out, trying to find their gear in the dark. The kobolds had a bet, you see...

For the record, my players (this group) had never suffered a TPK before.

"That was just a STARTER DUNGEON?!? Coooooollllll!!!!"

These guys are psychos, I tell ya.
#6
mccowen
Jan 12, 2009 15:36:00 In general, it sounds like the group made a couple of 4e-rookie mistakes.

1) Your DM should have adjusted the difficulty downward to account for the fact that there were 3 PCs for the final room, not 5. From your description, he didn't, which means you were unlikely to succeed just from a numbers standpoint.

This is actually a huge problem, and accounts for almost all of the difficulty you had. For three PCs, the encounter as written is actually 6th or 7th level. Imagine instead how it would have gone if there was one dragonshield, one slinger, and no drake, and you'll have a better idea of how 4e is designed to work.

2) You stated the warlord thought he couldn't heal. That makes a big difference, and likely would have kept your PC alive even if the DM had left the difficulty where it was supposed to be.

3) The party was seriously lacking in ranged options. Even if the cleric was ranged--and I suspect not, from your description--he would have been effectively lined up alone against two slingers and a wyrmpriest, which is not a good situation.

4) No PC moved to engage the slingers. Monsters that are strong at ranged are often weak in melee, which makes sense--archers are rarely superb swordsmen. If your party is getting torn up by ranged attackers, one good tactic is to get close to them. In this situation, the kobolds would have had to either a) hop off the platform, exposing themselves to the rock trap; b) take opportunity attacks every time they used their slings; or c) use their weaker dagger attacks on the PC who's hassling them, which gives the two stuck PCs time to free themselves.

You might suggest that the DM read carefully through Chapter 4 of the DMG before you play through the adventure again. You feel overwhelmed mostly because you were overwhelmed, and if the DM takes that lesson to heart then hopefully your next session will be more satisfying.
#7
Stuntman
Jan 12, 2009 15:49:08 I did not like how the encounters were set up in the Kobold Hall adventure. When I ran my party through the adventure, I had a kobold encounter prior to entering the dungeon and then played the first two rooms. My impression of them was that the glue shots and the traps made the encounters boring and frustrating for anyone who did not use ranged weapons. When melee types are stuck at the back, it was just frustrating even for me who was the DM. I just felt that there were too many immobilising effects thrown against the PC's.

The whole adventure seemed more like an obstacle course than anything else. I would say that it would be better suited to more experienced players who know what options to use when dealing with immobolising effects such as bull rush or aid another or using the heal skill. For beginners who are new to 4E (like my group), they are not going to realise these option are available and are reduced to chucking daggers with crappy Dex if they fail their saves in consecutive turns.

I totally customised the third and fourth encounters. I added more open space and replaced the glue shots with the flaming shots. This had the effect of allowing the whole party (melee and ranged combattants) to get involved in the encounter more. Using the flaming shots showed the player how ongoing effects (in this case damage) and saving throws work. When you are on fire, you can still do stuff. It also more obvious to players that they can help an ally put out the fire than to help an ally get unstuck. When you are immobilised, you are not necessarily in danger of dying, so allies have less urgency to help you make your save. However if you are on fire, allies may want to help you put it out. The result was that all of the players were able to contribute to the combat encounters in a significant way and the group as a whole (including me) had way more fun.

My feeling about Kobold Hall was that the designers tried to show too much for a level 1 adventure. I would have made things a little simpler and not put as many traps and physical obstacles. For beginning players, I think that seeing what kobolds (and other monsters) can do to hurt you rather than hinder you would be more appropriate. I would have started off with using just the flaming shots to demonstrate lasting conditions that have save ends effects. I would have allowed more mobility for the first few encounters so players learn how important movement and positioning are. If players cannot move, they cannot learn how effective they can be when getting into good position. I would have showcased the monsters more and terrain less. Once players get a better feel of 4E combat then I would throw hindering effects against them in a limited fashion to show how hindering someone for one round can have a significant effect on the entire encounter.

I would say that more experienced players would have more fun with the Kobold Hall adventure than beginners. Players who are more into tactical combat games like Warhammer from Games Workshop would also enjoy this adventure more than players who do not care for such games (like most of my players). Such players would find the adventure more interesting than my group.
#8
half_dragon_infernal
Jan 12, 2009 21:56:26 The dragon is alone. I think the dragon is probably the easiest part, because its only a level 3. The hardest encounter really is the boulder one, and 3 people means you guys are screwed due to way over-EL. With the immobilization, you guys just got unlucky cause you need a 10 or higher to save. Statisically, you should be good after 1 or 2 rounds. Also, Teleports are not hampered by immobilization.
#9
mccowen
Jan 13, 2009 10:20:19
Who is capable of teleport at lvl 1.We had no elves in the party. As for the dragon even a lvl 3 dragon has hundereds of HP's acording to the MM. For a lvl 1 party I don't think so.

"Hundreds" of hp go pretty fast when defenders deal 5-10 and strikers deal 10-20. The dragon is not actually the worst thing about that adventure, by a long shot.
#10
half_dragon_infernal
Jan 13, 2009 11:48:55 And its alone, so you really don't have anything else to attack. Elves don't teleport, Eladrin do. Also, Feylocks get some teleports.
#11
nowiwantmydmg
Jan 13, 2009 13:20:33 If this edition has a failing it's that everyone must know the rules for combat and the extent of their powers to be successful in combat encounters.

IF.
#12
Stuntman
Jan 13, 2009 14:14:38
If this edition has a failing it's that everyone must know the rules for combat and the extent of their powers to be successful in combat encounters.

This I totally agree with. It may take a couple of sessions for players to get used to the rules and their abilities. I think you will notice an improvement regarding how they perform as they play more together.
#13
Shiftkitty
Jan 13, 2009 14:32:42
1) No it was the room with the giant boulder rolling arround. The room with the teather ball wasn't anywhere near as tough. At least for my group.
2) Dragon??? in a first lvl mni module? What are the designers smoking!

Yep, a dragon. I thought the same thing, but after looking over the stats and mechanics of the critter, I guessed they'd be able to handle it. They're pretty creative as players go.

The Boulder room was rough, but IIRC, the kobolds could snipe from the top of the wall, which meant the PCs could clamber up there as well (provided they made the right rolls). Only the warlock made it at first, and the others took their lumps until the warlock had secured the wall. Then they all got up with a "what the hell do we do now?" meeting.

In hindsight, Skull-Skull might not have been so bad if the warlord hadn't decided to make right for the kobolds and flung the door to the staircases wide open. You see, the drakes were still there.
#14
Alter_Boy
Jan 13, 2009 16:27:29
This I totally agree with. It may take a couple of sessions for players to get used to the rules and their abilities. I think you will notice an improvement regarding how they perform as they play more together.

And that, Daeros, is why there are very difficult encounters in the DMG and KotS: to force the players to know their powers, and to adapt to tough situations. There's no better time than 1st level to figure out that 5 Warlords are a terrible party, and that, yes Virginia, you can hogtie the Big Bad Evil Guy like a rodeo bronco and chuck him into the portal instead of attacking him.

Tough love, I know, but better on the first night and done, then every night afterwards.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Jan 11, 2009 10:12:47	Ok my group is trying to adapt to 4.o and our GM ran the mini module from the DMG last nite. The first three rooms are fairly straight forward, but the fourth room decimated us. One character died, the remaining ones were down to their last surge, before the Wyrmpriest died. I am only surprised that noone was run over by the rolling boulder. (Further note: both slingers and the drake fled when the priest died. The slingers were bloodied, the drake hadn't been hit.) The party concisted of the following: Dragonborn CHR paladin: me, also the one who died. I ran out of surges and missed all three death saves in a row. Tiefling CHR warlord Human greatsword fighter Human cleric Human "thug" rogue, he works graveyard shifts and had to leave prior to the fourth room. Not sure what he would have done anyway, his only thought is self preservation regardless what class he plays. We also have a mage, but his wife was sick and he didn't come to the game. So we lost out on the potencial of ranged spells. We had problems with the Kobold glue slingers for all four rooms. Two characters were stuck in the door opening for 5-6 rounds before they made the save. The other two made it to the dragonshields and were almost never missed, between them and the small drake they were burning thru the clerics pitiful healing faster than I have ever seen. So the question I am asking is this mini module supposed to be that deadly? I know my GM has a streak where he really wont miss from time to time but this felt like somthing else. We couldn't get into range and he couldnt miss.
#2 Escef Jan 11, 2009 17:46:04	Sounds to me like a combination of bad rolls and players not willing to retreat.
#3 nowiwantmydmg Jan 12, 2009 11:53:21	Ok my group is trying to adapt to 4.o and our GM ran the mini module from the DMG last nite. The first two rooms are fairly straight forward, but the third room decimated us. One character died, the remaining ones were down to their last surge, before the Wyrmpriest died. I am only surprised that noone was run over by the rolling boulder. The party concisted of the following: Dragonborn CHR paladin: me, also the one who died. I ran out of surges and missed all three death saves in a row. Tiefling CHR warlord Human greatsword fighter Human cleric Human "thug" rogue, he works graveyard shifts and had to leave prior to the third room. Not sure what he would have done anyway, his only thought is self preservation regardless what class he plays. We also have a mage, but his wife was sick and he didn't come to the game. So we lost out on the potencial of ranged spells. We had problems with the Kobold glue slingers for all three rooms. Two caharcters were stuck in the door opening for 5-6 rounds before they made the save. The other two made it to the dragonshields and were almost never missed, between them and the small drake they were burning thru the clerics pitiful healing faster than I have ever seen. So the question I am asking is this mini module supposed to be that deadly? I know my GM has a streak where he really wont miss from time to time but this felt like somthing else. We couldn't get into range and he couldnt miss. Clerics can grant saving throws.... as do several warlord powers. Both of them can also heal in addition to the Paladin's lay on hands and the party's second winds, you should have had lots of healing. Healing others is also a minor action so combat actions are still possible on the same turn. Teamwork is an essential part of combat now, no one can successfully "go it alone" anymore. Defenders need to remember their marks at all times.
#4 daeros_dup Jan 12, 2009 12:11:03	So the question I am asking is this mini module supposed to be that deadly? I know my GM has a streak where he really wont miss from time to time but this felt like somthing else. We couldn't get into range and he couldnt miss. It's probably not SUPPOSED to be that deadly, but so far WotC has had a terrible time making 4e encounters that actually work well. In Keep on the Shadowfell at one point a group of level 1 PCs are forced to fight a level 6 encounter - and that's assuming they don't pull two seperate encounters at the same time, which is very possible the way the area is set up. In the FR campaign book, theres a level 1 adventure with a pit trap that does 2d10 damage as it drops the PCs into a room with a level 4 encounter in it and knocks them prone. In other words - the mage could potentially be unconsious and dying before the level 4 combat even starts. And any party member that DIDN'T fall into the trap takes a while to get to the stairs to join the party members who did - all of whom will die in the meantime versus an encounter 3 levels above their own. I don't understand why WotC has this problem with encounter design, or why they don't believe in playtesting, but suffice to say what happened to you was probably not entirely your groups fault.
#5 Shiftkitty Jan 12, 2009 14:56:53	Was this "Skull-Skull"? That was the room that gave my party the most trouble. They (my guys) made a lot of classic mistakes in that whole module, but it was a player-training session for us, so we expected it. There were parts of that whole dungeon that really gave us a run for our money even before meeting the dragon. In fact, they had actually suffered a TPK, but I decided to show mercy and had them simply unconcious. (I wanted to keep playing and see how a few other things worked.) They woke up in the dragon room and had to fight their way out, trying to find their gear in the dark. The kobolds had a bet, you see... For the record, my players (this group) had never suffered a TPK before. "That was just a STARTER DUNGEON?!? Coooooollllll!!!!" These guys are psychos, I tell ya.
#6 mccowen Jan 12, 2009 15:36:00	In general, it sounds like the group made a couple of 4e-rookie mistakes. 1) Your DM should have adjusted the difficulty downward to account for the fact that there were 3 PCs for the final room, not 5. From your description, he didn't, which means you were unlikely to succeed just from a numbers standpoint. This is actually a huge problem, and accounts for almost all of the difficulty you had. For three PCs, the encounter as written is actually 6th or 7th level. Imagine instead how it would have gone if there was one dragonshield, one slinger, and no drake, and you'll have a better idea of how 4e is designed to work. 2) You stated the warlord thought he couldn't heal. That makes a big difference, and likely would have kept your PC alive even if the DM had left the difficulty where it was supposed to be. 3) The party was seriously lacking in ranged options. Even if the cleric was ranged--and I suspect not, from your description--he would have been effectively lined up alone against two slingers and a wyrmpriest, which is not a good situation. 4) No PC moved to engage the slingers. Monsters that are strong at ranged are often weak in melee, which makes sense--archers are rarely superb swordsmen. If your party is getting torn up by ranged attackers, one good tactic is to get close to them. In this situation, the kobolds would have had to either a) hop off the platform, exposing themselves to the rock trap; b) take opportunity attacks every time they used their slings; or c) use their weaker dagger attacks on the PC who's hassling them, which gives the two stuck PCs time to free themselves. You might suggest that the DM read carefully through Chapter 4 of the DMG before you play through the adventure again. You feel overwhelmed mostly because you were overwhelmed, and if the DM takes that lesson to heart then hopefully your next session will be more satisfying.
#7 Stuntman Jan 12, 2009 15:49:08	I did not like how the encounters were set up in the Kobold Hall adventure. When I ran my party through the adventure, I had a kobold encounter prior to entering the dungeon and then played the first two rooms. My impression of them was that the glue shots and the traps made the encounters boring and frustrating for anyone who did not use ranged weapons. When melee types are stuck at the back, it was just frustrating even for me who was the DM. I just felt that there were too many immobilising effects thrown against the PC's. The whole adventure seemed more like an obstacle course than anything else. I would say that it would be better suited to more experienced players who know what options to use when dealing with immobolising effects such as bull rush or aid another or using the heal skill. For beginners who are new to 4E (like my group), they are not going to realise these option are available and are reduced to chucking daggers with crappy Dex if they fail their saves in consecutive turns. I totally customised the third and fourth encounters. I added more open space and replaced the glue shots with the flaming shots. This had the effect of allowing the whole party (melee and ranged combattants) to get involved in the encounter more. Using the flaming shots showed the player how ongoing effects (in this case damage) and saving throws work. When you are on fire, you can still do stuff. It also more obvious to players that they can help an ally put out the fire than to help an ally get unstuck. When you are immobilised, you are not necessarily in danger of dying, so allies have less urgency to help you make your save. However if you are on fire, allies may want to help you put it out. The result was that all of the players were able to contribute to the combat encounters in a significant way and the group as a whole (including me) had way more fun. My feeling about Kobold Hall was that the designers tried to show too much for a level 1 adventure. I would have made things a little simpler and not put as many traps and physical obstacles. For beginning players, I think that seeing what kobolds (and other monsters) can do to hurt you rather than hinder you would be more appropriate. I would have started off with using just the flaming shots to demonstrate lasting conditions that have save ends effects. I would have allowed more mobility for the first few encounters so players learn how important movement and positioning are. If players cannot move, they cannot learn how effective they can be when getting into good position. I would have showcased the monsters more and terrain less. Once players get a better feel of 4E combat then I would throw hindering effects against them in a limited fashion to show how hindering someone for one round can have a significant effect on the entire encounter. I would say that more experienced players would have more fun with the Kobold Hall adventure than beginners. Players who are more into tactical combat games like Warhammer from Games Workshop would also enjoy this adventure more than players who do not care for such games (like most of my players). Such players would find the adventure more interesting than my group.
#8 half_dragon_infernal Jan 12, 2009 21:56:26	The dragon is alone. I think the dragon is probably the easiest part, because its only a level 3. The hardest encounter really is the boulder one, and 3 people means you guys are screwed due to way over-EL. With the immobilization, you guys just got unlucky cause you need a 10 or higher to save. Statisically, you should be good after 1 or 2 rounds. Also, Teleports are not hampered by immobilization.
#9 mccowen Jan 13, 2009 10:20:19	Who is capable of teleport at lvl 1.We had no elves in the party. As for the dragon even a lvl 3 dragon has hundereds of HP's acording to the MM. For a lvl 1 party I don't think so. "Hundreds" of hp go pretty fast when defenders deal 5-10 and strikers deal 10-20. The dragon is not actually the worst thing about that adventure, by a long shot.
#10 half_dragon_infernal Jan 13, 2009 11:48:55	And its alone, so you really don't have anything else to attack. Elves don't teleport, Eladrin do. Also, Feylocks get some teleports.
#11 nowiwantmydmg Jan 13, 2009 13:20:33	If this edition has a failing it's that everyone must know the rules for combat and the extent of their powers to be successful in combat encounters. IF.
#12 Stuntman Jan 13, 2009 14:14:38	If this edition has a failing it's that everyone must know the rules for combat and the extent of their powers to be successful in combat encounters. This I totally agree with. It may take a couple of sessions for players to get used to the rules and their abilities. I think you will notice an improvement regarding how they perform as they play more together.
#13 Shiftkitty Jan 13, 2009 14:32:42	1) No it was the room with the giant boulder rolling arround. The room with the teather ball wasn't anywhere near as tough. At least for my group. 2) Dragon??? in a first lvl mni module? What are the designers smoking! Yep, a dragon. I thought the same thing, but after looking over the stats and mechanics of the critter, I guessed they'd be able to handle it. They're pretty creative as players go. The Boulder room was rough, but IIRC, the kobolds could snipe from the top of the wall, which meant the PCs could clamber up there as well (provided they made the right rolls). Only the warlock made it at first, and the others took their lumps until the warlock had secured the wall. Then they all got up with a "what the hell do we do now?" meeting. In hindsight, Skull-Skull might not have been so bad if the warlord hadn't decided to make right for the kobolds and flung the door to the staircases wide open. You see, the drakes were still there.
#14 Alter_Boy Jan 13, 2009 16:27:29	This I totally agree with. It may take a couple of sessions for players to get used to the rules and their abilities. I think you will notice an improvement regarding how they perform as they play more together. And that, Daeros, is why there are very difficult encounters in the DMG and KotS: to force the players to know their powers, and to adapt to tough situations. There's no better time than 1st level to figure out that 5 Warlords are a terrible party, and that, yes Virginia, you can hogtie the Big Bad Evil Guy like a rodeo bronco and chuck him into the portal instead of attacking him. Tough love, I know, but better on the first night and done, then every night afterwards.