Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Thistle_Rosewood Aug 27, 2011 12:42:31	Greetings all will post it here and hope for the Best, as I dont know where this fits in. I write on Rpol and am playing in a modified 3.5 game. Was talking with the DM and stated my opinion on things and he suggested we write here to see what you all think. This isnt really a " Whats a DM to do, or Whats a Player to do " sort of question, its more of a queary on what people think, so am placing it here According to the rules ( somewhere ) Using a Bone Longsword imposes a - 2 penalty as its " Not " Metal and you are unaccustiomed to using it. Now, to clarify,  the reason we have bone / wooden weapons is because the DM placed us in a " Primal" setting where metal doesnt exist. We are modified " Cat " folk, and do have Bite as an attack. The point I made to him was. If we were Raised with only Bone, stone and Wooden weapons, then it is all we are used to. By 15 or 16 years of age, would be not be as accustomed to the weaon as one would working with a metal sword. Would it not be " Proficient " for us. Would using a Metal one not impose the - 2 if we have never used or seen it before ? ( outside knowledge of the game grants us knowledge that we will be leaving the setting and adventuring where Metal Might become available ) Some feed back would be great ! Thistle ( Aka Swenja - Leotan Cleric )
#2 salla Aug 27, 2011 12:51:05	Your DM is probably using, or modifying, rules from the Dark Sun setting.  The -2 isn't because of nonproficiency/lack of familiarity, it's because bone is a truly, utterly, horribly crappy material to try to make a weapon out of.  It's fragile, and I can't even figure out how in the world you could have a 'sword' made out of bone when it's so difficult to sharpen.
#3 oxybe Aug 27, 2011 13:00:37	previous edition forums would probably be your best bet.  i did a google search for "weapons made of bone D&D 3.5" and it quickly led me to a page from a 3rd ed supplement, Arms & Equipment Guide, that stated that stone age weapons made of bone/wood/stone have a -2 penalty to attack & damage. there might be something in the DMG about it also but i coudn't find it on the free SRD. then again, i don't think the SRD has the "futuristic" weapons, like guns, in there also.  now the entry seemed to state that it wasn't an issue of familiarity, but one of craftsmanship. now, in all honesty, it's up to the GM to decide if he wants to add such a rule. personally i could care less about the material made or the visual of the weapon as long as the mechanics aren't different. the 4th ed Dark Sun book, for example, pretty much assumes weapons are not made of metal due to the scarcity and instead uses material like volcanic obsidian for sharpness (like how the mayans created the Makahuitl, a weapon that resembles a cricket bat with razors on the sides) or in the case for blunt weapons are simply big, heavy blunt weapons.
#4 Thistle_Rosewood Aug 27, 2011 13:03:29	I am not certian to be honest why the - 2, just know we have it  Here is what I have - Currently, there are three players races available: Leotans, Jaggans, and Tigans. Any class is available as long as it can fit in a "primitive" campaign, and if they have magic use, that it fits the type of magic for the correct race. Leotans use "Cleric" Divine magic, Jaggans use "Druidic" Divine magic, and Tigans use arcane. Psionics are not available. Only stone and bone weapons are available at this time, and they are -2 attack and damage.  Any 3.5 or d20 source books can be used for your classes, prestige classes, or feats. Here is our IM conversation this morning Dm - well, they all hit last round, so cant complain Me - Though she might Steal the flattened Panthons blade next round if Tobogo doesnt Dm - His greataxe? you can use that? Me - lol -Why Not Dm - lol , didnt think clerics had proficiency in martial weapons Me - Ah, who needs to be proficient Dm - whats the non prof penalty again? -4? Me - I am not profecent with my BONE longsword either as I am taking a - 2 DM - oh its -2? so another -2 because its bone.... and +1 for the mwk so -3 Me - well, you gave us the - 2 in Character creationthough I think if you were raised and trained with them, they really shouldnt be at Minus's at all DM - you should write Wizards of the Coast then and tell them that let me know how that goes Me - I will and Ask others what they think to DM - Nasty language - got called into work, gotta go And so, While Wizards has its rules, I am just curious as to what others think on that. Not that I care, as I am a cleric with a poor Str, so am pretty much a healer only.
#5 oxybe Aug 27, 2011 13:53:15	yeah, attacking with a masterwork bone weapon you're  it would be at -5 attk & -2 damage (-4 non prof, -2 for being made of substandard materials, +1 for being of decent craftsmanship). by yeah, by the rules he's right.  again though, i prefer a more cinematic campaign so a Great sword is a Great sword, whether it's made of steel, dragontooth or wood+obsidian chunks
#6 Thistle_Rosewood Aug 27, 2011 16:42:34	Oh yes, I know he's right in the rules and we both agree to that, as I do with the others posting here on the rules. Both of us have been playing for close to 12 + years What I want to know is If you had characters that  were Raised with only Bone, stone and Wooden weapons, then it is all they were used to. By 15 or 16 years of age, would you not be as accustomed to the weaon as one would working with a metal sword, learning its in's and outs and the flaws with it. Would it not be, in a sence "  Proficient " for them in as they know only that weapon ( discounting Weapon types as I am assuming you are staying within Class Features, Ie - A cleric cant use the Greatsword. I am just talking Stone / Bone / Wood type) Would using a Metal one not impose the - 2 if we have never used or seen it before ? If you have adapted to the weight of a stone sword, a metal one is going to seem light and you very likely could over swing. Out of Gaming -  I do Hooping ( Hula Hoop ) and have weighted hoops. The Lighter hoops spin faster and you need to adapt quicker. If I have worked with my heavy one for a few days and move to the lighter one, I tend to miss the trick moves for the first 20 minutes as its a different feel to it. Would swords not be simielier Keeping the Rules out of it, if you were running a " Primal " game, where Metal was not in Existance, what would you do as a DM. The DM just wants to know what other Dm's would do in this situation. That is what I am trying to get in my answers. Thanks to all who have answered already ! T
#7 Neutronium_Dragon Aug 27, 2011 17:12:39	AEG's -2 is reasonable in a 3.X setting where you'd normally be using metal weapons and have to resort to 'inferior' ones for some reason. If the setting has no normal metal weapons - Dark Sun, too primitive, etc - then it's no longer reasonable: all it does is apply a blanket -2 penalty to attacks for weapon users, which is neither thematic or helpful. Settings designed around this sort of scenario generally ignore the material type differences, or use some other mechanic to represent the idea (4E Dark Sun has the best one so far, although it also assumes that several other systems, such as Inherent Bonuses, are in use.)
#8 salla Aug 27, 2011 17:33:51	Keeping the Rules out of it, if you were running a " Primal " game, where Metal was not in Existance, what would you do as a DM. If I were inclined to run such a game, I would let each player fluff his or her weapons, armor, and other gear, as well as class, however he or she likes without mechanical alteration.
#9 DontEatRawHagis Aug 27, 2011 19:40:05	Oh yes, I know he's right in the rules and we both agree to that, as I do with the others posting here on the rules. Both of us have been playing for close to 12 + years What I want to know is If you had characters that  were Raised with only Bone, stone and Wooden weapons, then it is all they were used to. By 15 or 16 years of age, would you not be as accustomed to the weaon as one would working with a metal sword, learning its in's and outs and the flaws with it. No, I would pull a Dark Sun and make metal weapons more powerful than bone. Bone weapons would not have a penalty but I would add in breakage rules. Roll a 1, roll again and lower than 10 breaks weapon. Would it not be, in a sence "  Proficient " for them in as they know only that weapon ( discounting Weapon types as I am assuming you are staying within Class Features, Ie - A cleric cant use the Greatsword. I am just talking Stone / Bone / Wood type) As far as I know there are no proficiency  for  weapon materials Would using a Metal one not impose the - 2 if we have never used or seen it before ? If you have adapted to the weight of a stone sword, a metal one is going to seem light and you very likely could over swing. I would probably if that was the case, but then I would have no reason to put Metal weapons in the game. Why would you switch out weapon types? Maybe I would make Bone swords +2 to attack: -2 dmg, and stone +2 dmg: -2 attack. Metal weapons impose no detriment or advantage. Makes sense if you think about it a bone sword is lighter so it gives you faster speed, stone gives you slower speed but higher damage(stronger material) Out of Gaming -  I do Hooping ( Hula Hoop ) and have weighted hoops. The Lighter hoops spin faster and you need to adapt quicker. If I have worked with my heavy one for a few days and move to the lighter one, I tend to miss the trick moves for the first 20 minutes as its a different feel to it. Would swords not be simielier Similiar but its easier to go from heavier to lighter, imo. Though i only used wood and plastic swords my friend used for practice. Stone weapons should be heavier than metal. Keeping the Rules out of it, if you were running a " Primal " game, where Metal was not in Existance, what would you do as a DM. The DM just wants to know what other Dm's would do in this situation. That is what I am trying to get in my answers. Thanks to all who have answered already ! T I said what I would do, hope that helps your DM.
#10 Thistle_Rosewood Aug 27, 2011 20:49:28	Thanks The reason is The group is raised in a " Pocket " where things remained Primal and Primitive. They are undergoing a " trial " where they become Adults and are free to adventure. Outside the " Pocket " the world continues as normal, with Metal weapons, technology, etc So the group adventures, and suddenly finds themselves outside the norm, where everything is different. The Cat folk have not seen metal nor " know " what it is. It just seems odd that they were raised with Bone / Stone Weapons, hit the outside world, having never seen a metal sword, pick it up and be able to wield it better. I know, Game Symantrics and the rules that are within, but Logically ( And never said Rules were logical ) it doesnt make sence. hence the posing the question here for others to put their input in. Thanks again ALL
#11 crowscape Aug 27, 2011 21:05:38	Would it not be, in a sence "  Proficient " for them in as they know only that weapon ( discounting Weapon types as I am assuming you are staying within Class Features, Ie - A cleric cant use the Greatsword. I am just talking Stone / Bone / Wood type) Yes, that would make sense. Would using a Metal one not impose the - 2 if we have never used or seen it before ? If you have adapted to the weight of a stone sword, a metal one is going to seem light and you very likely could over swing. No, it would not impose the -2 penalty, as a) stone doesn't differ much in weight from metal (unless instead of steel you're making the thing out of titanium or alluminum, which would be a bad idea as the lack of mass cuts down on your damage potential; think about why tank rounds are made out of tungsten or depleted uranium instead of something far lighter) and b) people who are learning to wield any sword always start out on wood or bamboo versions, so they don't cut themselves or kill their opponents by accident, and they will continue to use those less-than-lethal versions for the bulk of their training and c) it would be an annoying game mechanic that nerfs non-spellcasters in 3.5, which need no nerfing.
#12 irenicus_jon Aug 29, 2011 4:23:12	This is more the DM's problem than your own. Yes he's imposing a flat -2 attack roll penalty to non-spellcasters and you feel it hurts you, but it should be hurting him more. Now he has to balance this out somehow. If he doesn't balance it out and you end up getting into trouble because of your decreased combat capacity it's his fault not yours. If you get repeatedly beaten/captured in combat it's not going to be fun for you or the party (or even the DM for that matter), and this will have a breaking point. At some point he'll have to fix things or he'll not have a party to play with anymore. That being said the DM might simply want to give you the feel of the difference between bone and metal and may have plans to upgrade your weapon properly in the near future. There might be other angles he's trying to work through as well. I think you should simply soldier through this and see what happens. Think of the -2 as not a penalty but a recalculation of your attack bonus.
#13 pluisjen Aug 29, 2011 6:54:39	I think it'd help if you didn't see it as a -2 non-proficiency penalty but rather see it as a -2 inferiority penalty. Kinda like reverse masterwork. Thing is, it doesn't matter how much training you have with a bone club, or how long you've been practicing with it, or how many ins and outs of it you know, it's going to remain a **** weapon. Because it's made of bone, and bone is a **** material for building weapons. There's a reason we make weapons out of metal, it's because it's simply all around better. Calling it a non-proficiency is just the wrong name in this case. It has nothing to do with the wielder, the issue is with the weapon.
#14 yronimosw Aug 29, 2011 7:04:25	For what it's worth, the rules he's probably going by the 3.5 Edition DMG, page 144, in "Chapter 5:  Campaigns - Building a Different World". The entirity of the "Stone Age" section is:  "Attacks with weapons made of bone or stone have a -2 penalty on attack and damage rolls (with a minimum damage of 1).  Stone-age cultures don't make bone or stone chainmail - they use leather, padded, wood, or bone armor.  Historically, only a few exceptions to this rule exist, and those forms of armor are all made of bronze.  Bone has hardness 6 and 10 hitpoints per inch of thickness.  Stone has hardness 8 and 15 hit points per inch of thickness."  - page 144, in "Chapter 5:  Campaigns - Building a Different World" I assume that, since this is in the "Building a Different World" chapter, the penalties apply to characters born and raised in that world, and reflect the inherently inferior qualities of stone-age materials for use in making weapons compared to metal, rather than the training of the character.  It makes sense from what I've seen on the TV show/documentary Deadliest Warrior, where there is a clear difference in effectiveness between stone-age weapons and metal weapons from more modern cultures, even when stone-aged weapons are used in the hands of warriors who have mastered those weapons. I can certainly understand how this penalty can hamper classes that depend on weapons for proper game balance, though.  As a result, I would be inclined, for the sake of even 3.5's wonky balance, to rule that Magical stone-age weapons do not suffer from these penalties, being equivalent to metal weapons of the same type due to the excellent materials, cunning workmanship, and magical charms and spells used by their creators.  I think that's a fair compromise, since PCs should be able to switch to magic weapons before the penalties for "muggle" weapons really start to hurt them noticeably (assuming the DM isn't being stingy with magic weapons on top of the other penalties.) I might also consider ruling all common stone-age weapons are "simple weapons", writing Martial Weapons feat out of the campaign, and granting PC classes that ordinarily get the Martial Weapons feat an extra Fighter bonus feat at character creation instead.   (Flint knives, spears, clubs, stone axes, bows and arrows, blow guns, slings, and javelins would be simple weapons in my version of this campaign...  I would categorize other stone-age weapons to be either Simple or Exotic on a case-by-case basis, depending on how well I think they fit into the default cultures in my game world.)  This should make it a bit easier for warrior-types to become focused experts, with appropriate bonuses, with most (if not all) of the stone-age weapons likely to be encountered by their tribes.
#15 Thistle_Rosewood Aug 29, 2011 9:32:50	Thanks to all who answered Its a big help. WE are just 1st level, so have not aquired a magica weapon yet, and the DM is thinking about it. Either way, we all knew what we were getting into by choosing the " Primal " Side of the game verses the " Advanced " Side.  We were just curious as to what other DMs would do in that situation. Just means I need a Nat 18 on the Die to hit the creatures we are facing ( Sigh....Good thing I have spells being the healer. Oh wait, I have used them all already. ) T
#16 pluisjen Aug 29, 2011 10:09:25	Even with a -2 penalty you really shouldn't be needing an 18 to hit... that means monsters have like a 20 AC or something. That's a lot for a first level enemy.
#17 Thistle_Rosewood Aug 29, 2011 10:15:26	They have a 16 AC. 1st Level Cleric is a Base of 0 My Clerics str is 10 so bonus of 0 My Attack with Bone longsword - 2 Thus a - 2 to hit, meaning I need an 18 to hit the Panthans. She is a Healer ! with the Augment healing Feat, not a fighter. But now she is out of spells ( Grins ) and has to join the fray
#18 pluisjen Aug 29, 2011 10:18:42	Ah ok, that explains. You might be better off granting an attack bonus to other characters in that case, if you can't hit anything. There should still be an Aid Other action of some sort. Or make Ranged Attacks? Unless your Dex is just as low, anyway.
#19 Thistle_Rosewood Aug 29, 2011 10:31:14	Oh, She cast Bless in the First round, Granting all her allies a + 1 to hit. Then she Healed Tebogo in the 2nd round then she healed Tebogo again in the 3rd round to keep him alive, as the Panthan was walloping him. ( using up all her 1st level spells, including Healing domain ) and only has 4 cure minors now essentially She doesnt have a bow on her, just the bone longsword, but her Dex is better then her Str. Its 15. Will have to steal the Panthans bow. Now Tebogo has charged away from her ( Darn Barbarians and their 40 move speed ) ( Grins ) And so, she follows them in, as best as she can
#20 oxybe Aug 29, 2011 11:20:52	Keeping the Rules out of it, if you were running a " Primal " game, where Metal was not in Existance, what would you do as a DM. If I were inclined to run such a game, I would let each player fluff his or her weapons, armor, and other gear, as well as class, however he or she likes without mechanical alteration. this. i see no reason to punish the players.
#21 yronimosw Aug 29, 2011 17:30:05	I'm not sure what you are up against, but if I were DMing the game, I would have eased into the changes using some lower-level encounters to see how things play out, to make sure that balance didn't tip too far against PCs who depend on certain types of weapons and armor to work. I would also have gone for a few early encounters with some re-skinned Goblins or Kobolds, being sure to apply the -2 penalty to their weapons, too, and award a little extra XP for winning encounters against animals and other monsters that don't use manufactured weapons. I think this is also a good time to award XP for finding non-combat solutions to problems as well, such as for use of skills in tracking down or trapping food or finding other precious resources (shelter, fresh water, etc.), and for role-playing through rites of passage, rivalries against other tribe members that can be resolved through non-lethal combat or through intimidation or diplomacy, and that sort of thing. That way, if I were to insist on the penalties for stone-age weapons, the 'punishment' goes both ways for the first level or two for armed monsters, and PCs level a little more quickly for unarmed monsters, and thus things even out in the end.
#22 CorrinAvatan Aug 30, 2011 19:13:31	If you guys are playing in a "pocket" where metal doesn't exist, but it exists outside of the pocket, I would say that there is nothing wrong with what the DM is doing. I will also note that, if your dex is better than your str, why did you choose a bone sword instead of a wooden bow?  Wouldn't that have made more sense as starting equipment?
#23 Thistle_Rosewood Aug 31, 2011 9:24:12	There are wooden bows available to the group, but she is a Cleric, and thus Not proficient with a bow, and so would take more minus's then she does with the long sword, which is her Gods favoured weapon. I think it would balance out to -2 to hit, with either the bow or the blade, so I opted for blade. Its fine with me, as I had planned on her pretty much being a stay behind healer, and was taking healer feats etc, but we were just curious as to other peoples opinions as to what they would do. T
#24 salla Aug 31, 2011 14:19:08	There are wooden bows available to the group, but she is a Cleric, and thus Not proficient with a bow, and so would take more minus's then she does with the long sword, which is her Gods favoured weapon. I think it would balance out to -2 to hit, with either the bow or the blade, so I opted for blade. Its fine with me, as I had planned on her pretty much being a stay behind healer, and was taking healer feats etc, but we were just curious as to other peoples opinions as to what they would do. T A quick level of Fighter takes care of that problem, and gets you a bonus feat to boot.
#25 Thistle_Rosewood Aug 31, 2011 17:55:20	Smiles True, but we are only 1st level, and thus, I am only Just a cleric. ! T
#26 Fireclave Sep 01, 2011 4:41:53	There are a few weapon options available that avoid the inferior weapon penalties altogether. Clubs, quarterstaffs and greatclubs are normally made from wood anyway, so they are already primative and, best of all, without the -2 penalty. Clubs also have a range increment, so enchant it Returning to make a boomerang to work off your dex. Improved Unarmed Strike is another option, and the damage can be upgraded later with Superior Unarmed Strike. Unless you have the war domain, you receive no special benefit from using your god's favored weapon, so you're better off forgoing that -6 penalty to attacks and saving your bone longsword for religious functions.