Question regarding skills and professions. - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Question regarding skills and professions.

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
physicslb
May 21, 2009 15:18:04 I'm pretty new to this whole thing, and my group and I are very happy with 4e. That said, I was wondering about professions and how it would work.

See, i'm kind of a do-it-yourselfer, in that I get a lot of satisfaction from using items that I have created. I have the PHB, and DMG and as far as I've found, they don't really allow players to craft items. If i'm wrong, great! Point me to the right pages!
Instead what i've come up with is a home-brewed type of crafting system, based mostly on existing skills. For enchanting weapons, armor, and other items, I use Arcana checks, and various rituals i've come up with. Brewing potions/poisons via Nature checks and Dungeoneering checks...but that's pretty much it. I have players interested in blacksmithing and armorsmithing but i can't really pin what skills those fall under.

Anyways, what i'm asking is if anyone has any suggestions for a new crafting system, or maybe revisions/additions to my existing one.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance (and for your patience with my rambling post).
#2
bone_naga
May 21, 2009 15:29:41 Thats all handled by background now. If your character wants to be able to work as a blacksmith, he should have that included as a background. Generally, theres no need for any sort of check (generally if you have the knowledge--by which I mean background--the time, and the equipment, you can just allow the character to craft it). If a check is needed for some reason, make an ability check (probably INT in this case), and depending on his background, either give him a small bonus, or treat it like a trained skill.

This is covered in the PHB or DMG but I don't remember exactly where. I do know that the DMG gives you guidelines for what to set the DC at.

I do believe there are some craft/profession skill systems out there, but as I don't use them I can't really point you in the right direction. Try using the search function and see if you come up with anything.
#3
physicslb
May 21, 2009 15:43:40 The background thing you mention, is that in PHB2? If it is, i guess i need to buy another book...and study the ones i have a little better.

Thank you!
#4
daidojitaidoru
May 21, 2009 15:46:43 First Professions: There is no profession in existence that can't be better covered by a background and a skill set. Why? Because a profession is mostly about knowing the rules for using your skills in a professional setting. Profession: Sailor is about using Athletics(Climbing), Acrobatics(Working the Rigging), Endurance(Rowing, not dying of scurvy) and Nature(weather, tides and navigation) on a boat. Now admittedly there's some localized knowledge those skills don't cover, but if you can climb a mainmast you can climb a tree, and if you can navigate by the stars at sea you should be able to do so on land as well. So it's usually better to use the base skills of a profession for checks, and merely require the background to make sure they know the specifics so they can do it right in that situation.

Now crafting. What do you want your crafting to do? Make common items? Then it's better as a background. 1st level D&D characters are the equivalent of Olympic athletes in physical skills, which means they start as master craftsmen in Craft skills. There's really nowhere to go from there as far as mundane items are concerned. There's no reason to make a skill that you auto succeed at from level 1 on. Backgrounds work better.

If you want to design a system for creating things of actual value (magic items mainly) it would be best to design it like the alchemy feat from AV. If you want to use rolling you can set up a minimum DC to create table using pg 42 and the level of the item.
#5
physicslb
May 21, 2009 15:53:23 Yes actually i was thinking of magical items.
My thought pattern was starting at Masterwork at level 1 (as you stated), and progressing to better quality items through rare materials collected from dungeons or quests. The idead behind rolling and skills was more to deter every character from accomplishing the same tasks, keeping a teamwork theme in both dungeon exploits, and gearing characters (one character makes the weapon/item, another enchants it etc etc).

It seems to me though that the background system would work pretty well, but i was unfamiliar with it because i don't have all the latest resources.

As i said, i think i need to buy another book or two.
#6
Rant_Casey
May 21, 2009 16:00:35 There is no advantage to making items, as the costs are equal to those purchased. However, it gives access to items of your choice, rather than those limited by shop selection, so you can choose to make Bloodclaw, Reckless, and Radiant weapons exclusively, for example. That's the one real function of the current item creation system: to make the items you want, not the items the GM wants you to have.
#7
Proin
May 21, 2009 16:03:47
First Professions: There is no profession in existence that can't be better covered by a background and a skill set. Why? Because a profession is mostly about knowing the rules for using your skills in a professional setting. Profession: Sailor is about using Athletics(Climbing), Acrobatics(Working the Rigging), Endurance(Rowing, not dying of scurvy) and Nature(weather, tides and navigation) on a boat. Now admittedly there's some localized knowledge those skills don't cover, but if you can climb a mainmast you can climb a tree, and if you can navigate by the stars at sea you should be able to do so on land as well. So it's usually better to use the base skills of a profession for checks, and merely require the background to make sure they know the specifics so they can do it right in that situation.

Pffft, I don't know what sailors you know, but MY job entails Arcana (knowing how to fix advanced electronic equipment), Diplomacy (knowing when and how to break out the golden-kneepads), and Stealth (successfully skating off). :embarrass

Seriously, though: You don't really need to buy another book (not that the PHB2 isn't a good book to have). Just have your players give you a background story. Any reasonable skills should just be assumed. Like the noble drow priestess probably knows how to ride a horse, which spoon to eat with at a fancy party and how to tie bondage straps.
#8
calronmoonflower
May 21, 2009 16:20:27 Try downloading the following article: Characters of War
It's free so you don't need to be a D&DI subscriber to download it.
#9
physicslb
May 21, 2009 16:22:05 i'm not sure why, but i like your style.
#10
bone_naga
May 21, 2009 16:28:01
The background thing you mention, is that in PHB2? If it is, i guess i need to buy another book...and study the ones i have a little better.

Thank you!

Well there are other background rules that were introduced later, but I'm talking about the ones in the PHB. You don't choose from a set list of backgrounds or anything. Instead, you write up your character's background, what he did before adventuring, etc. As long as the DM agrees that the background is reasonable, the player can apply the appropriate bonus to checks that happen to fall under that background skill (so long as it isn't covered by an existing skill). This lets the players customize their characters without having to lose out on Stealth or Perception because there might be some oddly specific scenario where Blacksmithing will save the world.
#11
calanar
May 21, 2009 16:40:28
Well there are other background rules that were introduced later, but I'm talking about the ones in the PHB. You don't choose from a set list of backgrounds or anything. Instead, you write up your character's background, what he did before adventuring, etc. As long as the DM agrees that the background is reasonable, the player can apply the appropriate bonus to checks that happen to fall under that background skill (so long as it isn't covered by an existing skill). This lets the players customize their characters without having to lose out on Stealth or Perception because there might be some oddly specific scenario where Blacksmithing will save the world.

The bonus is +2 currently. For everyone who writes down the skill, blacksmithing or whichever
#12
physicslb
May 21, 2009 18:59:29
Well there are other background rules that were introduced later, but I'm talking about the ones in the PHB. You don't choose from a set list of backgrounds or anything. Instead, you write up your character's background, what he did before adventuring, etc. As long as the DM agrees that the background is reasonable, the player can apply the appropriate bonus to checks that happen to fall under that background skill (so long as it isn't covered by an existing skill). This lets the players customize their characters without having to lose out on Stealth or Perception because there might be some oddly specific scenario where Blacksmithing will save the world.

Heh, that actually sounds like a decent plot device (crafting some artifact that will destroy the villain or some such thing).

On topic: I see now. i thought you were referring to a game mechanic i was unfamiliar with. I think this should definitely help solve my problem.

Thanks again!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 physicslb May 21, 2009 15:18:04	I'm pretty new to this whole thing, and my group and I are very happy with 4e. That said, I was wondering about professions and how it would work. See, i'm kind of a do-it-yourselfer, in that I get a lot of satisfaction from using items that I have created. I have the PHB, and DMG and as far as I've found, they don't really allow players to craft items. If i'm wrong, great! Point me to the right pages! Instead what i've come up with is a home-brewed type of crafting system, based mostly on existing skills. For enchanting weapons, armor, and other items, I use Arcana checks, and various rituals i've come up with. Brewing potions/poisons via Nature checks and Dungeoneering checks...but that's pretty much it. I have players interested in blacksmithing and armorsmithing but i can't really pin what skills those fall under. Anyways, what i'm asking is if anyone has any suggestions for a new crafting system, or maybe revisions/additions to my existing one. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance (and for your patience with my rambling post).
#2 bone_naga May 21, 2009 15:29:41	Thats all handled by background now. If your character wants to be able to work as a blacksmith, he should have that included as a background. Generally, theres no need for any sort of check (generally if you have the knowledge--by which I mean background--the time, and the equipment, you can just allow the character to craft it). If a check is needed for some reason, make an ability check (probably INT in this case), and depending on his background, either give him a small bonus, or treat it like a trained skill. This is covered in the PHB or DMG but I don't remember exactly where. I do know that the DMG gives you guidelines for what to set the DC at. I do believe there are some craft/profession skill systems out there, but as I don't use them I can't really point you in the right direction. Try using the search function and see if you come up with anything.
#3 physicslb May 21, 2009 15:43:40	The background thing you mention, is that in PHB2? If it is, i guess i need to buy another book...and study the ones i have a little better. Thank you!
#4 daidojitaidoru May 21, 2009 15:46:43	First Professions: There is no profession in existence that can't be better covered by a background and a skill set. Why? Because a profession is mostly about knowing the rules for using your skills in a professional setting. Profession: Sailor is about using Athletics(Climbing), Acrobatics(Working the Rigging), Endurance(Rowing, not dying of scurvy) and Nature(weather, tides and navigation) on a boat. Now admittedly there's some localized knowledge those skills don't cover, but if you can climb a mainmast you can climb a tree, and if you can navigate by the stars at sea you should be able to do so on land as well. So it's usually better to use the base skills of a profession for checks, and merely require the background to make sure they know the specifics so they can do it right in that situation. Now crafting. What do you want your crafting to do? Make common items? Then it's better as a background. 1st level D&D characters are the equivalent of Olympic athletes in physical skills, which means they start as master craftsmen in Craft skills. There's really nowhere to go from there as far as mundane items are concerned. There's no reason to make a skill that you auto succeed at from level 1 on. Backgrounds work better. If you want to design a system for creating things of actual value (magic items mainly) it would be best to design it like the alchemy feat from AV. If you want to use rolling you can set up a minimum DC to create table using pg 42 and the level of the item.
#5 physicslb May 21, 2009 15:53:23	Yes actually i was thinking of magical items. My thought pattern was starting at Masterwork at level 1 (as you stated), and progressing to better quality items through rare materials collected from dungeons or quests. The idead behind rolling and skills was more to deter every character from accomplishing the same tasks, keeping a teamwork theme in both dungeon exploits, and gearing characters (one character makes the weapon/item, another enchants it etc etc). It seems to me though that the background system would work pretty well, but i was unfamiliar with it because i don't have all the latest resources. As i said, i think i need to buy another book or two.
#6 Rant_Casey May 21, 2009 16:00:35	There is no advantage to making items, as the costs are equal to those purchased. However, it gives access to items of your choice, rather than those limited by shop selection, so you can choose to make Bloodclaw, Reckless, and Radiant weapons exclusively, for example. That's the one real function of the current item creation system: to make the items you want, not the items the GM wants you to have.
#7 Proin May 21, 2009 16:03:47	First Professions: There is no profession in existence that can't be better covered by a background and a skill set. Why? Because a profession is mostly about knowing the rules for using your skills in a professional setting. Profession: Sailor is about using Athletics(Climbing), Acrobatics(Working the Rigging), Endurance(Rowing, not dying of scurvy) and Nature(weather, tides and navigation) on a boat. Now admittedly there's some localized knowledge those skills don't cover, but if you can climb a mainmast you can climb a tree, and if you can navigate by the stars at sea you should be able to do so on land as well. So it's usually better to use the base skills of a profession for checks, and merely require the background to make sure they know the specifics so they can do it right in that situation. Pffft, I don't know what sailors you know, but MY job entails Arcana (knowing how to fix advanced electronic equipment), Diplomacy (knowing when and how to break out the golden-kneepads), and Stealth (successfully skating off). :embarrass Seriously, though: You don't really need to buy another book (not that the PHB2 isn't a good book to have). Just have your players give you a background story. Any reasonable skills should just be assumed. Like the noble drow priestess probably knows how to ride a horse, which spoon to eat with at a fancy party and how to tie bondage straps.
#8 calronmoonflower May 21, 2009 16:20:27	Try downloading the following article: Characters of War It's free so you don't need to be a D&DI subscriber to download it.
#9 physicslb May 21, 2009 16:22:05	i'm not sure why, but i like your style.
#10 bone_naga May 21, 2009 16:28:01	The background thing you mention, is that in PHB2? If it is, i guess i need to buy another book...and study the ones i have a little better. Thank you! Well there are other background rules that were introduced later, but I'm talking about the ones in the PHB. You don't choose from a set list of backgrounds or anything. Instead, you write up your character's background, what he did before adventuring, etc. As long as the DM agrees that the background is reasonable, the player can apply the appropriate bonus to checks that happen to fall under that background skill (so long as it isn't covered by an existing skill). This lets the players customize their characters without having to lose out on Stealth or Perception because there might be some oddly specific scenario where Blacksmithing will save the world.
#11 calanar May 21, 2009 16:40:28	Well there are other background rules that were introduced later, but I'm talking about the ones in the PHB. You don't choose from a set list of backgrounds or anything. Instead, you write up your character's background, what he did before adventuring, etc. As long as the DM agrees that the background is reasonable, the player can apply the appropriate bonus to checks that happen to fall under that background skill (so long as it isn't covered by an existing skill). This lets the players customize their characters without having to lose out on Stealth or Perception because there might be some oddly specific scenario where Blacksmithing will save the world. The bonus is +2 currently. For everyone who writes down the skill, blacksmithing or whichever
#12 physicslb May 21, 2009 18:59:29	Well there are other background rules that were introduced later, but I'm talking about the ones in the PHB. You don't choose from a set list of backgrounds or anything. Instead, you write up your character's background, what he did before adventuring, etc. As long as the DM agrees that the background is reasonable, the player can apply the appropriate bonus to checks that happen to fall under that background skill (so long as it isn't covered by an existing skill). This lets the players customize their characters without having to lose out on Stealth or Perception because there might be some oddly specific scenario where Blacksmithing will save the world. Heh, that actually sounds like a decent plot device (crafting some artifact that will destroy the villain or some such thing). On topic: I see now. i thought you were referring to a game mechanic i was unfamiliar with. I think this should definitely help solve my problem. Thanks again!