Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 brassbaboon Feb 28, 2010 20:37:46	I'm embarrassed to admit that my 11th level ranger has stealth as a trained skill, but has rarely used it other than to do some skulking around in town and to pickpocket a key from a bad guy. Now, he doesn't have the best stealth modifier in the world, it's only a +13, but I would like to start using it in combat if possible, but I'm not exactly sure how some of it works. As I understand the rules (and I think I have the latest changes) to make a stealth check I need total concealment or superior cover. As I read "superior cover" it means a "low wall" would not qualify. But if the wall is high enough to literally crouch down behind, would that count as superior cover if my character crouched down? The rule says that you make the stealth check at the end of a move, and if you are successful, you are "invisible" to an enemy whose passive perception is less than your stealth roll. The rules also say that if you are "invisible" to an enemy, then an action taken while invisible is taken with combat advantage until the end of the action. So if that's true, and I have made a successful stealth check, does that mean that BOTH attacks of a twin strike attack are done with combat advantage? Also, if I make a successful stealth check behind a corner from two squares away, and my weapon has reach 2, does that mean I can make an attack from that position with combat advantage? And... if I make a stealth check at the end of a move and it is successful, if I have not yet taken a standard action, can I attack with combat advantage the same turn I made a successful stealth check? I'm trying to figure out how best to utilize stealth as a combat skill. I don't have any special stealth powers or items, so I'm mostly looking for things that can be done by any character with stealth, or ways that any character can use stealth to hide during combat. My ranger is dual melee/ranged, so advice for either approach would be appreciated. Any suggestions?
#2 tiornys Mar 01, 2010 1:33:17	I'm embarrassed to admit that my 11th level ranger has stealth as a trained skill, but has rarely used it other than to do some skulking around in town and to pickpocket a key from a bad guy. Now, he doesn't have the best stealth modifier in the world, it's only a +13, but I would like to start using it in combat if possible, but I'm not exactly sure how some of it works. As I understand the rules (and I think I have the latest changes) to make a stealth check I need total concealment or superior cover. As I read "superior cover" it means a "low wall" would not qualify. But if the wall is high enough to literally crouch down behind, would that count as superior cover if my character crouched down? This isn't explicitly covered by the rules, so it's going to be a DM call.  Some DM's I've played with would allow it, others would not.  If I were DMing for you, I'd allow it if you dropped prone. The rule says that you make the stealth check at the end of a move, and if you are successful, you are "invisible" to an enemy whose passive perception is less than your stealth roll. The rules also say that if you are "invisible" to an enemy, then an action taken while invisible is taken with combat advantage until the end of the action. So if that's true, and I have made a successful stealth check, does that mean that BOTH attacks of a twin strike attack are done with combat advantage? Yes. Also, if I make a successful stealth check behind a corner from two squares away, and my weapon has reach 2, does that mean I can make an attack from that position with combat advantage? If you somehow have line of effect to your target, yes.  Keep in mind that if your target has cover or concealment from you, then the advantage you're getting from CA is effectively being cancelled. And... if I make a stealth check at the end of a move and it is successful, if I have not yet taken a standard action, can I attack with combat advantage the same turn I made a successful stealth check? You can, although see below. I'm trying to figure out how best to utilize stealth as a combat skill. I don't have any special stealth powers or items, so I'm mostly looking for things that can be done by any character with stealth, or ways that any character can use stealth to hide during combat. My ranger is dual melee/ranged, so advice for either approach would be appreciated. Any suggestions? Stealth is somewhat difficult to use in combat because it can be tricky to obtain superior cover or total concealment.  In most environments, superior cover will be significantly easier to obtain than total concealment, as the most common sources of the latter are darkness, which many monsters can see in or otherwise bypass, and which tends to be a greater hindrance than help to most adventuring parties, or heavily obscured terrain, which isn't common in my experience.  All you need for superior cover is at least one square of blocking terrain and some savvy with lines and angles.  Walls, statues, columns, large tree trunks, and large rocks are all common forms of blocking terrain.  In a dungeon, you can often duck down a side corridor or back out of a doorway to obtain superior cover, but open areas and outdoor encounters provide more challenge. To get superior cover from a single square of blocking terrain, you need to put the obstacle directly between you and the person you're trying to stealth against (or at least as close as you can get).  If they're on a direct line with the obstacle, you can be adjacent to it, but otherwise you'll need to be at least 2-3 squares away.  You're looking for a square of which your target can see at most one corner past the obstacle (see DMG, p. 43 for exact details).  Note that when you do this, you will usually be visible to most of the enemy; that's fine as long as it's inconvenient/impossible for your target to move to a square where you lack cover/concealment.  Your presence can be reported to your target, but they'll need to succeed on an active perception check to break your stealth.  If you get serious about using stealth, it's worth it to take some time out of game drawing lines on a battle map to see how to position yourself around a single square of blocking terrain for superior cover against target squares. The need for distance to achieve stealth makes it most useful for ranged attacks.  However, the fact that you can use standard cover/concealment to maintain stealth once you have it does make it possible to use it for melee, although you'll generally need to make multiple stealth checks to do so, often at a -5 penalty. Another problem with using stealth in combat is the fact that achieving stealth usually involves putting yourself somewhere where you can't conveniently target the enemies you're hiding from.  To get around that, you either need a way to move and attack as part of the same action (charging is a possibility, as are numerous powers), or you'll need to use multiple move actions: the first to activate stealth (say, ducking 2 squares down a side corridor), then another to reposition yourself in mere cover/concealment where you can clearly target your victim while maintaining the stealth (move back to the corner of the corridor--you have cover but can make clear attacks). Taking all of this into consideration, the best way for you to use stealth is likely as a way to get CA during every other turn in a combat where you prefer to fight from range and avoid enemy attention.  On one turn, you'll attack, and then move into superior cover and stealth.  On your next turn, assuming you didn't lose stealth, you'll move into a targeting position, and then attack with CA.  You can do other things with stealth, but this is the most straightforward application, and it's one which will complement most any attack power. t~
#3 fugacityfixyoursite Mar 01, 2010 13:10:20	If you have some means of doing so, keep in mind that rooftops make great cover positions. If they can't see your "heels", you have cover. Tricky working out the angles for total cover though...
#4 brassbaboon Mar 01, 2010 22:33:22	Thanks tiornys, this is very helpful. Basically what I am looking for is a way to gain combat advantage for an attack, and a way to avoid getting nailed with ranged attacks or getting sucked into a "come and get it" from an enemy. Since my character is a melee/ranged attacker I'm looking for ways to utilize stealth for both types of attack. Some more questions, and if I just didn't "get it" from your response, I apologize. If I am behind a corner with a ranged attack, does the target still gain cover from my attack? If I successfully hide and then move, does every square I move through have to have cover or concealment for me to stay hidden? I understand that if I move more than two squares, I take a -5 on concealment. Am I right in understanding that every time I take a move action while hidden, I have to make a new stealth check to stay hidden, but if I'm already hidden I can make those stealth checks while only having cover or concealment (as opposed to superior cover or total concealment)? Is there some kind of general guideline for what a monster or NPC's passive perception check would be per level? In otherwords, what should I expect to have to roll on a stealth check to hide at level 11? I've only got a +13 so I'm hoping the answer isn't "32". Do I know if I hid successfully, or do I have to guess? If I have an attack that includes movement, can I make a stealth check at the end of the attack, or can I only make stealth checks at the end of an actual move action? I think I read that you can't use allies for cover, but what about mounts? Could I make a stealth check if hiding behind my barbarian's elephant? If I successfully hide, and neither I nor an enemy I am hidden from move (or do anything else that breaks stealth), do I remain hidden on subsequent moves automatically or do I have to make stealth checks every turn whether I move or not? And, last but not least, if I am hidden and use a minor action to set an enemy as my "hunter's quarry" does that reveal my location to the target?
#5 tiornys Mar 02, 2010 2:24:38	Thanks tiornys, this is very helpful. Basically what I am looking for is a way to gain combat advantage for an attack, and a way to avoid getting nailed with ranged attacks or getting sucked into a "come and get it" from an enemy. Since my character is a melee/ranged attacker I'm looking for ways to utilize stealth for both types of attack. Some more questions, and if I just didn't "get it" from your response, I apologize. If I am behind a corner with a ranged attack, does the target still gain cover from my attack? Depends on how exactly you're getting cover from the corner.  If you're positioned right at the corner, it's possible for you to have cover from your target while your target does not have cover from you--this is, of course, what you want. Take a look at the diagram on p. 280 of the PHB.  The goblin at the corner has the kind of positioning you want--he has cover from the attacker, but if he were to make a ranged attack back, the "attacker" would lack cover since the goblin can choose either of his two closer corners to draw lines from.  Conversely, in the diagram on p. 274 of the PHB, the attacker has cover from the bugbear and the bugbear has cover from the attacker. If I successfully hide and then move, does every square I move through have to have cover or concealment for me to stay hidden? Yes, unless you have a special power like Shadow Stride to get around the restriction. I understand that if I move more than two squares, I take a -5 on concealment. Am I right in understanding that every time I take a move action while hidden, I have to make a new stealth check to stay hidden, but if I'm already hidden I can make those stealth checks while only having cover or concealment (as opposed to superior cover or total concealment)? That's a -5 on your stealth check, and you only need to make a new stealth check (with that penalty) if you move more than 2 squares. Is there some kind of general guideline for what a monster or NPC's passive perception check would be per level? In otherwords, what should I expect to have to roll on a stealth check to hide at level 11? I've only got a +13 so I'm hoping the answer isn't "32". Perception scores vary a lot, but they're calculated in much the same manner for monsters as for players:  Wis mod + 1/2 level + possible training (+10 to figure passive).  Figure that monsters will have a Wis between 8 and 22 or so, 1/2 level will be 5-6, and you're looking at a low end of 14 (i.e. auto-success) and a high end of 27 or so. A quick glance at level 11-12 creatures suggests that this is a reasonable guideline. Do I know if I hid successfully, or do I have to guess? DM dependent.  I think it's correct given 4E's transparency philosophy to let the players know, but I've known DM's who thought otherwise. If I have an attack that includes movement, can I make a stealth check at the end of the attack, or can I only make stealth checks at the end of an actual move action? Only at the end of a move action, unless you have something special overriding that.  In any case, making an attack breaks stealth, and there's another general rule that you can't make a stealth check off of an action that breaks stealth. I think I read that you can't use allies for cover, but what about mounts? Could I make a stealth check if hiding behind my barbarian's elephant? Not 100% here, but I think mounts count as allies. If I successfully hide, and neither I nor an enemy I am hidden from move (or do anything else that breaks stealth), do I remain hidden on subsequent moves automatically or do I have to make stealth checks every turn whether I move or not? As answered above, you only need to make a stealth check if you move more than 2 squares with an action. And, last but not least, if I am hidden and use a minor action to set an enemy as my "hunter's quarry" does that reveal my location to the target? DM call as to whether setting something as your quarry counts as "keeping out of sight, keeping silent, and keeping still".  Personally, I would allow you to maintain stealth while setting a quarry, but I can see arguments the other way. t~
#6 brassbaboon Mar 02, 2010 20:48:00	Thanks again tiornys, I do appreciate your tolerance with my lack of research. Sounds to me like I've been overlooking some interesting tactical options for my stealthy ranger....