The problem is, my dear brother is playing a mad Artificer. Emphasis on the mad.
Unfortunately for us, instead of coming off as cute and endearing and funny, mostly he just comes off as obnoxious. His alignment, technically, is CG- although the DM has given him 'two strikes' as it were towards making him change it to CN. He's temperamental and downright annoying. When he isn't stabbing strangers with glowbug bloodspikes and the *most* inopportune times, he's going out of his way to dilly-dally and waste time when something important is going on, offering potatoes to people, or going on and on about his latest 'boondoggle'.
Granted, he's saved our butts and has managed to come through in some pretty serious pinches - which is the only reason I think his character is still around - but most of the time, he's just downright irritating. He takes opposing opinions for no other reason than to foster arguments among the characters, even if the discussion is quite serious, and he asks inane questions just to waste time. Seriously, the list goes on and on. All in the name of 'his character'.
I can't complain about that. When he's in-character, he's really in-character... and the character has the potential to be amazing comedic relief, and one of the deepest, multi-layered characters in the game! But instead, he's more of an antagonist than an ally.
But he's been spoken to, In Character and Out, and he's still a huge pain!
What makes it worse, is he's made himself practically indispensable to not only the party, but the world-at-large. So keeping him around is actually LESS inconvenient than getting rid of him! ARGH!!!!
It makes me not even want to play some days.
But I don't say that to anyone else, because I don't want to ruin HIS fun, either. We're all in it to play and have fun, right? Meh. I want him to be able to play his character, his way. But it's like... we have enough enemies, okay? You're supposed to be helping us, not hindering us.So what happens when one person has to sacrifice their fun for the sake of someone else's?
So what happens when one person has to sacrifice their fun for the sake of someone else's?
When that person's under the age of 14 and is your brother, you suck it up; them's the pains of having family.
In every other case, you have a chat about what the goals of the game are,. Does he want to play a game where he's at the centre of the universe, his actions are largely without consequence, and he can enjoy a free-roaming sandbox of destruction and irresponsibility (in which case you can probably find copies of the more recent Grand Theft Autos going pretty cheap, I highly recommend them)?
Or does he want to play a game with other players, where you have fun collectively attempting to overcome the challenges and scenarios set by the DM? In which case, great, can you go and recreate your artificer as someone capable of working in a team without stabbing his teammates? Cos that'd be great.
And since it is another case, the DM pretty well told him that... maybe not quite the way you did, Greg, but was still pretty straightforward with 'working together is good, breaking my game is bad'. Now instead of consistently crossing the line, he sticks his toe out over it often enough to be annoying, but still manages to make himself useful enough to somehow maintain ties with the rest of the party.
Ugh, and our other friend recently added the 'we're half-brothers!' plot twist into the mix. Now there's TWO of them making shenanigans. I think it's a lost cause, and I'm just going to have to tough it out for the duration.
The other party members should just ignore him. When his character speaks up/acts out in a non-fun way, have your characters ignore him. When he interacts with the DM/NPCs, and causes problems, have your characters ignore him (as best you can). If you have to deal with whatever trouble he stirs up, so be it. Just don't talk to his character.
Soon he might get tired of roleplaying with only the DM, and change his tune.
One: Ditch his character in game. I don't care how helpful he is, blah blah blah, you can't stand a person that much you don't hang with him anymore. You do without or find a replacement. (Or two if you really have to make up for the loss in ability)
Two: Ditch in real life. Either he goes or you go. There are always other games (though maybe not with people you know) and it truly gets the point across about just how much he is ruining the game for you and possible others.
A game is where everyone has fun. If this is not true about your game, then you aren't playing a game, you are doing a chore. To let it continue is to let others rule your life for no other reason than you let them. Is that the kind of person you want to be? Role-playing is not an excuse to turn a game into a chore.
Hopefully by beginning either of these options it will bring about a third option where your 'brother' finally gets what the results of his actions are and shapes up.
Ignore him.
The other party members should just ignore him. When his character speaks up/acts out in a non-fun way, have your characters ignore him. When he interacts with the DM/NPCs, and causes problems, have your characters ignore him (as best you can). If you have to deal with whatever trouble he stirs up, so be it. Just don't talk to his character.
Soon he might get tired of roleplaying with only the DM, and change his tune.
This.
Such a player wants the attention. Don't give it to him. Don't argue back. Don't react. Do nothing in response to whatever he does. Be like the Amish and shun him. Either he'll change his ways or quit. It's a win/win.
This.
Such a player wants the attention. Don't give it to him. Don't argue back. Don't react. Do nothing in response to whatever he does. Be like the Amish and shun him. Either he'll change his ways or quit. It's a win/win.
This.
What makes it worse, is he's made himself practically indispensable to not only the party, but the world-at-large. So keeping him around is actually LESS inconvenient than getting rid of him! ARGH!!!!
I'm just curious, but how'd this happen?
Oh, I should've clarified: he's 21 years old. I guess there's not that much difference between 14 and 21. At least when it comes to egocentric brats like him. :P
And since it is another case, the DM pretty well told him that... maybe not quite the way you did, Greg, but was still pretty straightforward with 'working together is good, breaking my game is bad'. Now instead of consistently crossing the line, he sticks his toe out over it often enough to be annoying, but still manages to make himself useful enough to somehow maintain ties with the rest of the party.
Ugh, and our other friend recently added the 'we're half-brothers!' plot twist into the mix. Now there's TWO of them making shenanigans. I think it's a lost cause, and I'm just going to have to tough it out for the duration.
While you're toughing it out, I recommend someone establishing some boundaries, to help prevent any future wackiness from cropping up.
Also, if these guys are adults, do not just ignore them and hope they fix themselves. You've described the first player as your best friend - if that's the case, he should be receptive to hearing you out and meeting you halfway. And I'm guessing that if he changes his tune, the other player will follow.
I'm just curious, but how'd this happen?
We're coming up on level 13 now, this game has been running for quite some time. Major things are happening in the world. We're playing in Eberron, and we're making the Last War look like tip-toeing through the tulips. He's an Artificer who knows how to run/upkeep/etc a Creation Forge. He has all of Cannith's secrets in his nutty noggin.
Oh yeah. What Treaty of Thronehold?
The bad guys are pumping out demon-possessed, modified warforged, and the only way we're going to have a prayer of saving the world is by having warforged of our own. So that's what we're doing. Hopefully, all in the name of a future, unified Galifar.
This player is one of two people (the other being an NPC) who know where our Forgehome is, and really, with everything he knows and everything he's capable of, it'd be crippling to our cause to lose him.
Also, he's prone to random acts of brilliance and heroism. He knew who one of our hidden enemies was before anyone else did... and in the last session (I didn't attend, I had a sick kitty to take care of) he apparently was going to trade his soul to save 100,000+ people.
He has these moments of awesome that he thinks gives him the right to, say, ask dumb questions and stall and withhold an item HE has that WE need to save someone important's life.
He'll cough up what we want just agonizing seconds before it's too late- and thinks it's cute. And don't even get me STARTED on the bloodspikes. If I get glowbugged ONE more time...
Ignore him.
The other party members should just ignore him. When his character speaks up/acts out in a non-fun way, have your characters ignore him. When he interacts with the DM/NPCs, and causes problems, have your characters ignore him (as best you can). If you have to deal with whatever trouble he stirs up, so be it. Just don't talk to his character.
Soon he might get tired of roleplaying with only the DM, and change his tune.
We did this a lot early on, actually. Especially when any kind of serious discussion was coming up. Then he got whiny and indignant afterwards about how 'no one listens to my character'. I explained that no one took him seriously because he went out of his way to come off as crazy. He seemed to straighten up for a little while, but it didn't last.
It's hard to ignore him under a lot of circumstances.
It's when we need him the most that he tends to beat around the bush.
It's when we need to talk seriously with this NPC and use every ounce of our diplomacy to secure their friendship that he goes out of his way to act insane.
Then I wind up having to apologize for him, make excuses, and try to salvage the conversation. Our party is uh, well, we're kind of a weird bunch, just to look at us... and he makes it a million times harder to get respect and trust.
Then when we're in a pickle, and don't know *what* we're gonna do, he steps up and saves the day. It's enough to make me want to pull my hair out.
Like I said earlier, he has the potential to be really good comic relief, and to be a multi-layered, well-developed character. He just seems to be doing it in all the wrong ways. I dunno. Maybe I'll sit him down in front of this thread, and see if that helps him understand...
Like I said earlier, he has the potential to be really good comic relief, and to be a multi-layered, well-developed character. He just seems to be doing it in all the wrong ways. I dunno. Maybe I'll sit him down in front of this thread, and see if that helps him understand...
This.
If this doesn't work, stop inviting him.
If you have already talked with your brother and he refuses to listen. Then simply inform him he won't be allowed to game with the group anymore. It's harsh, but it may be the only way of getting the message across. Also, create an NPC that does what his character does and that way the party won't be caught short when you need an artificer.
"Dude, you are being a total prick this game. Everyone hates your character, and you are making DND unfun. If don't cut it out, we are going to stop inviting you. Seriously, you are 21 years old."
If this doesn't work, stop inviting him.
That... may be a tad harsh. Especially with someone that you will be dealing with for the rest of your life. I'd take a more respectful position: have the DM fake crit after crit against him until his character dies, chalk it up to the luck of the dice, and show him a strew of heroic epics in movie form, thus causing him to want to make a "Cool Good Guy" character, and enjoy your new, sane ally. Just kidding, of course.
My suggestion? Just bring up that the character is bugging you, ask if he'd be alright with the character in question being turned into an NPC and slowly phased out of the plot, and hopefully he'll roll up a more tolerable character. This seems like a situation where too much bluntness is just that; too much.
Based on what you've said so far, it sounds like you and the DM versus Artificer and half-brother. I've not seen anything about how many other players you've got or how they feel. At first you said that all the others felt the same way, but with one other player pulling the half-bro card and starting to play the same way, it would seem that your initial assessment was wrong. Your moral high-ground seems to stem from the fact that the DM agrees with your side... which is basically about order and control, so one would expect that from the DM.
You also have to consider that your play-style may be impacting to his enjoyment of the game. Ask yourself who appears to be having more fun - you or him? Sounds like him. Sounds like you're so focused on working through the storyline (and the DM so focused on unveiling his storyline) that you seem to forgotten to actually PLAY the game. He's playing - are you? You get your enjoyment from the process of the game - the learning, the mystery, the figuring it out, the test of it all. He gets his enjoyment through the process of the events - character development, entertaining himself to the fullest with each encounter. Who is right?
Just saying, consider it from the other side of the coin. Sounds like most of the time he's not only fine, but also brings something pretty significant to the table as a player, not just as a character. You've said as much yourself.
When he's being a distraction, indicate that to him and ask him to stop (politely). Yes, it may require multiple reminders, multiple presentations. But his antics are a part of the process that helps your group advance through the stages of the game also. You never know when something ridiculous that he does will give you the opportunity to learn something knew about your enemy (like the discovery of the hidden enemy). Try to remember that and learn to appreciate it.
You talk about the glowbug bloodspikes, get him back. He does it, do something back. Figure out how to play his game and it might have him lighten up on the antics. It's like a tough guy - push him back and you might earn some respect, otherwise he'll just keep picking on you because you'll never do anything to make him stop, as a character. Talking didn't work, take action. You wouldn't let someone keep poking you in real life, you'd poke them back, so do it.
When his antics directly threaten the safety of the group - specifically that something he does damages you - you should act, and respond accordingly. You don't want to risk hanging him out in combat, kick his ass after combat so that you can be sure you can revive him, just make sure that it's a surprise, because that is what will be the lasting force and effect. Or if someone else falls in combat due to his antics, be sure he is held accountable. How exactly is up to your gameworld and DM.
Just try to remember that we all enjoy different things about the game. Just because what he enjoys is different, doesn't mean it's wrong, even if it's distracting at times. And at least one other player in the group enjoys the same play-style he does.
Honestly it sounds like it's more a matter of opposing personalities than anything else.
Based on what you've said so far, it sounds like you and the DM versus Artificer and half-brother. I've not seen anything about how many other players you've got or how they feel. At first you said that all the others felt the same way, but with one other player pulling the half-bro card and starting to play the same way, it would seem that your initial assessment was wrong. Your moral high-ground seems to stem from the fact that the DM agrees with your side... which is basically about order and control, so one would expect that from the DM.
Actually, I didn't really specify one way or the other how the other players felt about the way he plays his character. The DM has warned him about his alignment, and told him not to keep trying to break his game, but that's it... and the alignment issues were not related to his inconveniencing behavior, but legitimate evil acts he committed.
Honestly, if the DM cared that much, my brother's character would be dead by now. He's just that way. He is also working on getting his BA in English so he can write for a living, and told everyone ahead of time that the game we'd be playing was a serious one. Not that there haven't been hilarious moments, because, well, it's D&D... but regardless- serious business.
I do think you are absolutely right, however. It is a huge difference in play-style. The problem is, he's the only one who really enjoys it. The half-brother just goes along with him to foster feelings of acceptance that his character never had before. IRL, the half-brother's player is kind of like an excitable puppy who is just happy to be playing D&D.
Not including myself, my brother, and his new butt-buddy- there are 3 other players. One of which is my brother's girlfriend, and she's gone so far as to physically cover his mouth IRL when he was about to say something IC that would have been inane/obnoxious/irrelevant. Now, I don't agree with that personally... Let the boy play his character. But that pretty clearly shows her opinion of him.
One of the other players is hardly in it for the game at all, and mostly just keeps to himself, which is an entirely different rant... HE'S the one I'd be happy to tell to quit playing, but that's neither here nor there.
The third player finds my brother's character amusing IRL, but his character finds him irritating and often, more of a hindrance than a help.
And I definitely wouldn't say that "most of the time" he's fine. Less than half the time. I really can't explain how irritating he is... and as far as 'getting him back' for his pranks- yep, tried that, too. Many levels ago. Unfortunately, he'll take it higher and farther than anyone else will. He's that kind of person. It's his IRL personality influencing his character with that one.
The rest of us gleefully accepted the fact that this is a pretty serious game, which as I said, was laid out very clearly in the beginning... whereas my brother will gleefully ignore it and stomp all over it if given half a chance. He has told me before that his entire goal is to 'break the game'. He doesn't want to play it, he wants to break it.
But at the same time... I dunno, everyone seems to be really quick to jump on the 'Tell him to straighten up or quit playing' bandwagon.
I just wanted to vent, and maybe get someone to sympathize. (Thanks for commiserating, Kimby)
I mentioned he'd been spoken to, and not a lot of good came from it.
I even said at the end of my original post, I don't want to tell him how to play his character. I want him to have fun, and play his way. It's just frustrating when his fun gets in the way of the party's fun.
.... I need to find some way to make the game excruciatingly painful for him. Some way to.. inconvenience and annoy him.... hmmm....
.. yeah, that just might work...
The DM either needs to penalize him, or remove him from the game for a short while. Unless he has a reason to do better, he's not going to.
[INDENT]Players are obliged to be fair and reasonable to other players, as well as for their characters to act likewise towards other PC's. There is no excuse for either you OR your character to be an ass. NONE. Okay, the only exception being if ALL the players are mature enough for their characters to be openly antagonistic of each other, and that the DM has made it clear from the start that such behavior is to be allowed, as well as how it will be kept in line. This is NOT an unreasonable restriction upon roleplaying but is, in fact, the very basic supposition of the game - an often radically diverse party of adventurers who nonetheless DO work together for money, glory, and other mutually agreeable ends. This means that right from the start as a player you are largely obliged to find reasons for your character to LIKE the other PC's, not antagonize them. It means that no player or character gets to dictate to the others the circumstances of their participation in the game or the party without MUTUAL consent, nor may an exclusive collection of two or more players/characters exert such control over one or more others. The DM is obliged to maintain this atmosphere of civility and cooperation, or - if it has been agreed by all beforehand to allow crossing that line - he is obliged to keep in and out-of-character attitudes and behavior from becoming disruptive. {"I'm just roleplaying my character" is not a valid excuse for being an ass and NOT all character concepts are equally appropriate for player characters.}[/INDENT]
The Manifestois a document I give to every player and either read it to them or have them read it back to me before they are allowed to play in my games. If they have a problem with any of its tenets they better be talking about it. By the time their second game session starts they no long have ignorance as an excuse for not going along with everything therein.
Then if he fails to stop, again, have the DM tell him he's out of the next session and have his charcter be played by the Dm as an NPC if he's that entwined in the world plot. If not, make him sit out period and do not give him his XP, loot, or any rewards for that session. If the behavior continues, ban him for good.
Otherwise, take a 2 or 3 week break from the campaign or start another and let him know he's not invited to play this one due to the past behavior issues.
That's my 2 cents, I know it's a difficult situation to be in. I had to raise my wife's younger brother.. oof.
Gotta do what you gotta do.
fairdady
That... may be a tad harsh. Especially with someone that you will be dealing with for the rest of your life. I'd take a more respectful position: have the DM fake crit after crit against him until his character dies, chalk it up to the luck of the dice, and show him a strew of heroic epics in movie form, thus causing him to want to make a "Cool Good Guy" character, and enjoy your new, sane ally. Just kidding, of course.
Personally, I would rather my friends or family point out that I was out of line, than have them cheat/lie/pretend nothing is wrong. What happens when the player notices the faked crits, or rolls a second obnoxious character?
Put it up front, be honest, and straight forward. Don't be mean about it, but be firm.
Personally, I would rather my friends or family point out that I was out of line, than have them cheat/lie/pretend nothing is wrong. What happens when the player notices the faked crits, or rolls a second obnoxious character?
Put it up front, be honest, and straight forward. Don't be mean about it, but be firm.
The "fake crits" thing was a joke, but I'm not disagreeing with your plan, just it's delivery. Telling someone they're out of line is fine, bluntly telling them that they are being obnoxious is much harder for someone to take calmly. Now, that's not to say they are to be gently reminded and then you return to cowering in the corner. By all means, be firm. Tell him "This isn't as enjoyable for me as it could be. Your character is impeding my enjoyment of the game. I'd appreciate it if you would re-tool your character, or make a new, less disruptive one."
I just think that, when it comes to confrontation, it's much better to be diplomatic yet firm, rather than aggressive.
Maybe the DM can foist a familiar onto him that fits his personality - potentially very useful but also very annoying. "Sorry master, I needed to take a dump and there was no paper available so I ripped a page out of your ritual spellbook".
Quoted for being on the right track. No, seriously.
I once GM'd a game with a younger player who didn't take anything seriously, spent the whole session goofing around, being obnoxious and distracting the other players, to the point that they wanted him gone. I told them I'd 'take care of it, no problem.'
They freaked out a little when I introduced a new NPC, even younger and more obnoxious than our resident 'Problem Child', but then it came to light that Problem Child was being made the guardian of the young, obnoxious NPC. "He's your responsibility, now you keep him out of trouble."
Hilarity ensued, as the rest of the party watched Problem Child get a taste of his own medicine. He really had his hands full dealing with the NPC's shenanigans, and none of the other PC's would lift a finger to help him! Suddenly, it wasn't a joke to him any more, and he started taking the game seriously after that. It only took about half a session to 'educate' him, and then we got back to the original storyline.
I don't know if this technique would work for the OP's situation, but it might be worth a try.
PtM
See, y'know how DMs aren't supposed to TPK for fun? And how they're not supposed to make you do stuff just because? Those are unwritten rules for DMs. Probably actually written some places, but not officially.
Well, there are rules for players too. One such rule is that players are supposed to make characters that are capable of meshing, and easy to play as an adventurer travelling in dungeons. The rogue that slits everyone's throat is a bad PC. The player may say that it's his character, but the fact is that he shouldn't be playing that character. In this case, your adopted brother shouldn't be playing this character; it clearly is not suitable, if you and your party (and your DM, possibly) are all bothered and hindered by it.
Now, these aren't hard-and-fast rules (more like guidelines, I suppose), so the exception is when the party is okay with whatever setbacks, such as getting throat-slit.
Maybe the DM can foist a familiar onto him that fits his personality - potentially very useful but also very annoying. "Sorry master, I needed to take a dump and there was no paper available so I ripped a page out of your ritual spellbook".
They freaked out a little when I introduced a new NPC, even younger and more obnoxious than our resident 'Problem Child', but then it came to light that Problem Child was being made the guardian of the young, obnoxious NPC. "He's your responsibility, now you keep him out of trouble."
Hilarity ensued, as the rest of the party watched Problem Child get a taste of his own medicine. He really had his hands full dealing with the NPC's shenanigans, and none of the other PC's would lift a finger to help him! Suddenly, it wasn't a joke to him any more, and he started taking the game seriously after that. It only took about half a session to 'educate' him, and then we got back to the original storyline.
I passed these along to my DM, and he gave me a smile and an appreciative look. Maybe he'll try that... and maybe, just maybe, it'll work.
It might make everything worse... if that's the case, I'll be sure to come back and blame you for it. ;)
Thanks to everyone who's given me advice. It is appreciated.
I passed these along to my DM, and he gave me a smile and an appreciative look. Maybe he'll try that... and maybe, just maybe, it'll work.
It might make everything worse... if that's the case, I'll be sure to come back and blame you for it. ;)
No problem. All my advice comes with a million-dollar guarantee.
Show
Gimme a million dollars; I'll give you whatever advice you like!
The rest of us gleefully accepted the fact that this is a pretty serious game, which as I said, was laid out very clearly in the beginning... whereas my brother will gleefully ignore it and stomp all over it if given half a chance. He has told me before that his entire goal is to 'break the game'. He doesn't want to play it, he wants to break it.
Yeah, that's the kind of thing that is 'kick-worthy' to me. His intent is to be a distraction, which is a detriment to the enjoyment of the other players, and that's a no-no. Having the whole thing defined as a serious game upfront is also a major factor, and one which it seems he doesn't want to be a part of. Those are 2 factors which scream to me that he shouldn't be in your game.
Best of luck with the other ideas though.
Then ignore his actions. If he stops to offer people potatoes then have your characters keep moving on. Have your characters keep moving on.
And if that does not work give him the old heave-ho. Toss his butt to the curb. While he is family that is no excuse for an adult ruining your enjoyment of your game.
One final time sit him down and remind him that while he has a "right" to play the character that he wants he also has an obligation to ensure that his actions (be they that of himself or his character) do not detract from the enjoyment of others at the game table.
Then ignore his actions. If he stops to offer people potatoes then have your characters keep moving on. Have your characters keep moving on.
And if that does not work give him the old heave-ho. Toss his butt to the curb. While he is family that is no excuse for an adult ruining your enjoyment of your game.
On the other hand, you could have some fun with him before he leaves.
Another approach, re: the 'potato' thing. Next session I'd have the next random NPC to whom he offers potatos turn out to be an epic level warlock who responds by shouting, "I loathe potatoes!" and then unload Nature's Wrath on his sorry butt.
And so on for any other silliness he perpetrates.
See if he still thinks it's funny when every one of his lame stunts costs him a healing surge.
PtM