Reconciling Rests... - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Reconciling Rests...

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
nadalis
Apr 17, 2009 0:15:32 So, how does your group reconcile rests?

Right now our groups is in the midst of KOTS. We think we have a timeline, but we really don't know for sure. OUr group has a dragonborne battlerager and a dwarven barbarian. Both are good roleplayers, I guess. And both have taken it upon themselves to be bloodhungry battle seeking, bash in door and ask questions later. Our highest "in game" int is a 12 (it might be debatable that our gaming intelligence is even lower), and we have proven to be resiliant despite our lack of tactics so far. If we spend too long in discussion or making decisions, one or both of them start wandering off "to find something to kill, because talk is for the weak." That kind of gets on my nerves. I think it is possible to "roleplay that out" without being destructive to the group goals. That is either here, nor there, and it is not a problem I have been successful curbing. I think it is a character trait, that the player is willing to turn into a player trait as well, but I digress.

With these two characters at the pointy end of battle everytime, our party is alwoys kind of playing catch-up/clean up. Every once in while we will stop so the charaters can catch their breath. But when some of us players attempt to catch our breath and assess the situation, 1/2 the party heads on the attack again. We cannot stop for information, or take prisinors etc. So, we have now adventured in one day long enough that our cup is rather empty. As players we recognize that we have no dailies left and we are very low on healing surges. As we ended last session we were still undecided on the next course of action. The other players were trying to convince me that since we were low in surges and had no dailies left that it would be suicide to continue as we know there is a tough battle ahead, we just don't know when. SO, the other players are well aware of the fact that our party is very low on resources, but how does that translate into "in game" tactics/decision making (roleplay basically).

Earlier in the "in game" day/adventure the blood-thirsty warriors cared nothing of surges or powers or rests or tactics, in fact they kept reminding me of the impending timeline. I am having a really, really hard time stomaching the idea that all of a sudden these blood-thirsty warriors would all of a sudden go rest and "hang out" for 10 hours all of the sudden, becasue they are tired, even though the threat and impending doom is still echoing in their heads. My fear is that we will let meta-game thinking and information effect in-game roleplaying and in-game decisions.

I am not saying that my character does think he need to sleep. I just don't see how the circumstances change that bad in 4 minutes. How can we go from:
"GO Go Go, kill kill kill, we must keep going," "think of the town" "We must stop the impending doom" etc

to

"Damn, I'm tired" "Anyone else up for a rest?" "Did you see that sick move I just laid down on those goblins? Man, it wiped me out." "I know there is still impending doom and all, but I am too tired to save the world right now, maybe tomorrow." "We didn't feel it was necessary to find information before. Information is for sissies. We know very little of what we need to becasue we are much better at kicking in doors than asking questions. But, man right about now I wish we knew what was going on. Oh well, I am really tired. I hope the wolrd doesn't end while I am taking a rest."

in a matter of minutes?

Give me some advice.
Throw me a bone, tell me I am not alone in this battle or provide light unto the path.

How do your reconcile rests in game (that are necessary for meta-game reasons) that are contrary to in-game character goals?

Is it possible for you to keep meta-game thinking out of your games in 4E as your players/characters decide when to rest?
#2
sjmcc13
Apr 17, 2009 0:45:38 I am to tired to read properly atm, so I am going to assume you mean Extended rests. I can not say for certain, as I have not had this problem, actually I had the opposite, players trying to take extended rests every other encounter.

Honestly, if the group has not dalies left, and only a couple surges, you are supose to be pushing your physical limits, the characters are supose (imho) to be able to recognize this, and realize that they risk their survival if the rush in. not being suecidal is supose to take care of knowing when to call it a day, as many areas can not be fully explored in one day anyway, and to run full tilt into a new encounter when exhausted is more likely to end badly then to wait the 6-8 hours.

Refusing to take a rest should only exist when there is some story reason to do so, the DM needs to impart the needed sense of time, THe examples you give is ones that should only really happen at the end of the adventure/campaign, with something forcing you to finish.

Most situations have rest points built into the story reasons for a rest anyways, example (from a game I ran):
players find scroll in a language they can not read, travel to "neighbouring" village to consult a expert in the language (trip time 2 days, rests built in with encounters on trip)
Arrive at village, "sage" (an ancient dragon) is not avaliable till moring, another rest.
sage says will translate if PCs do a taks for him, and remove a hatchling of another breed that is causing him anoyance.
...

THe story should not have anything in it to force time, unless it is explicitly exposed as part of the plot.
#3
decivre
Apr 17, 2009 0:46:17 People can't march on forever. In real life, people who push themselves beyond what they can take fall over in collapse, their bodies completely resisting the personal desire to stay awake in order to sate the body's need for rest. In the game, people run out of dailies and hit points.
#4
alane
Apr 17, 2009 4:12:03
How can we go from:
"GO Go Go, kill kill kill, we must keep going," "think of the town" "We must stop the impending doom" etc

to

"Damn, I'm tired" "Anyone else up for a rest?"

You roleplay the injuries and exhaustion.

While hit points and healing surges are abstract, they do represent increasing levels of physical punishment. By the time your characters are out of surges and losing their last hit points, they are staggering around covered in blood like Bruce Willis at the end of Die Hard.

There is nothing unheroic about collapsing from exhaustion or taking time to recover from injuries. Many adventure stories contain "hero is badly injured" scenes, often used as a chance for the audience to catch their breath before the next action scene begins. My favorite is probably the "flipping mirror" scene from the first Indiana Jones movie but there are many others.

Is it possible for you to keep meta-game thinking out of your games in 4E as your players/characters decide when to rest?

Probably not and it might not be desirable to do so.

To some extent, long rests probably should be determined by meta-game considerations. When you send the party into battle with no surges and no dailies, you are living on the ragged edge and courting the dreaded TPK -- a total party wipeout. A lack of surges gives the party a glass jaw; just a couple good punches will take any character completely out of the fight, and the healer won't be able to get them back into action. If the tide of battle turns against the party under those circumstances, they won't be able to bounce back. They'll die.

D&D 4e is built with an assumption of reasonable rests during adventures. In most cases, the party should be getting a short rest between each encounter and a long rest when they start hitting zero on their surges. The party members can handle the timing via roleplay ("I be so thrashed I kin hardly lif' me axe! Let's make camp.") or the DM can handle it via adventure design ("The elves of Green Forest hold a great feast in your honor. In the morning, after you have rested from your journey, they will guide you to the cursed Valley of Inevitable Decapitation") but somebody needs to be handling it.

If you just keep going without surges, eventually someone will die -- and he might have a lot of company. :coolcthul

- Alane -

("Oh, man, I've got a hangover from all that elven wine! Hey, what did that elf dude say this valley was called?")
-
#5
matthewstryker
Apr 17, 2009 8:48:55
How do your reconcile rests in game (that are necessary for meta-game reasons) that are contrary to in-game character goals? Is it possible for you to keep meta-game thinking out of your games in 4E as your players/characters decide when to rest?

Endurance checks. If you keep running on low battery, then you've got to make endurance checks or lose healing surges. This simulates pushing your characters to the limits of their endurance, and that extended rest starts to look good. There was something on this in the DMG, but I don't have time to find it.
#6
CCS
Apr 17, 2009 9:12:33
How do your reconcile rests in game (that are necessary for meta-game reasons) that are contrary to in-game character goals?

In the 4e game I currently play in we don't make much of an attempt at it all.
Instead the DM simply tells us when our dalies recharge and if/how many surges we regain.
Additionally our HPs, surges, & powers begin fully charged at the start of each session.
Were we to play that we actually took extended rests the story would A) simply not make any sense, B) never progress.
#7
solik
Apr 17, 2009 9:28:20 Simple -- we removed them from the game. See my sig for a basic version of the rule changes (we've refined it since -- one of these days I'll post the refined rules).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 nadalis Apr 17, 2009 0:15:32	So, how does your group reconcile rests? Right now our groups is in the midst of KOTS. We think we have a timeline, but we really don't know for sure. OUr group has a dragonborne battlerager and a dwarven barbarian. Both are good roleplayers, I guess. And both have taken it upon themselves to be bloodhungry battle seeking, bash in door and ask questions later. Our highest "in game" int is a 12 (it might be debatable that our gaming intelligence is even lower), and we have proven to be resiliant despite our lack of tactics so far. If we spend too long in discussion or making decisions, one or both of them start wandering off "to find something to kill, because talk is for the weak." That kind of gets on my nerves. I think it is possible to "roleplay that out" without being destructive to the group goals. That is either here, nor there, and it is not a problem I have been successful curbing. I think it is a character trait, that the player is willing to turn into a player trait as well, but I digress. With these two characters at the pointy end of battle everytime, our party is alwoys kind of playing catch-up/clean up. Every once in while we will stop so the charaters can catch their breath. But when some of us players attempt to catch our breath and assess the situation, 1/2 the party heads on the attack again. We cannot stop for information, or take prisinors etc. So, we have now adventured in one day long enough that our cup is rather empty. As players we recognize that we have no dailies left and we are very low on healing surges. As we ended last session we were still undecided on the next course of action. The other players were trying to convince me that since we were low in surges and had no dailies left that it would be suicide to continue as we know there is a tough battle ahead, we just don't know when. SO, the other players are well aware of the fact that our party is very low on resources, but how does that translate into "in game" tactics/decision making (roleplay basically). Earlier in the "in game" day/adventure the blood-thirsty warriors cared nothing of surges or powers or rests or tactics, in fact they kept reminding me of the impending timeline. I am having a really, really hard time stomaching the idea that all of a sudden these blood-thirsty warriors would all of a sudden go rest and "hang out" for 10 hours all of the sudden, becasue they are tired, even though the threat and impending doom is still echoing in their heads. My fear is that we will let meta-game thinking and information effect in-game roleplaying and in-game decisions. I am not saying that my character does think he need to sleep. I just don't see how the circumstances change that bad in 4 minutes. How can we go from: "GO Go Go, kill kill kill, we must keep going," "think of the town" "We must stop the impending doom" etc to "Damn, I'm tired" "Anyone else up for a rest?" "Did you see that sick move I just laid down on those goblins? Man, it wiped me out." "I know there is still impending doom and all, but I am too tired to save the world right now, maybe tomorrow." "We didn't feel it was necessary to find information before. Information is for sissies. We know very little of what we need to becasue we are much better at kicking in doors than asking questions. But, man right about now I wish we knew what was going on. Oh well, I am really tired. I hope the wolrd doesn't end while I am taking a rest." in a matter of minutes? Give me some advice. Throw me a bone, tell me I am not alone in this battle or provide light unto the path. How do your reconcile rests in game (that are necessary for meta-game reasons) that are contrary to in-game character goals? Is it possible for you to keep meta-game thinking out of your games in 4E as your players/characters decide when to rest?
#2 sjmcc13 Apr 17, 2009 0:45:38	I am to tired to read properly atm, so I am going to assume you mean Extended rests. I can not say for certain, as I have not had this problem, actually I had the opposite, players trying to take extended rests every other encounter. Honestly, if the group has not dalies left, and only a couple surges, you are supose to be pushing your physical limits, the characters are supose (imho) to be able to recognize this, and realize that they risk their survival if the rush in. not being suecidal is supose to take care of knowing when to call it a day, as many areas can not be fully explored in one day anyway, and to run full tilt into a new encounter when exhausted is more likely to end badly then to wait the 6-8 hours. Refusing to take a rest should only exist when there is some story reason to do so, the DM needs to impart the needed sense of time, THe examples you give is ones that should only really happen at the end of the adventure/campaign, with something forcing you to finish. Most situations have rest points built into the story reasons for a rest anyways, example (from a game I ran): players find scroll in a language they can not read, travel to "neighbouring" village to consult a expert in the language (trip time 2 days, rests built in with encounters on trip) Arrive at village, "sage" (an ancient dragon) is not avaliable till moring, another rest. sage says will translate if PCs do a taks for him, and remove a hatchling of another breed that is causing him anoyance. ... THe story should not have anything in it to force time, unless it is explicitly exposed as part of the plot.
#3 decivre Apr 17, 2009 0:46:17	People can't march on forever. In real life, people who push themselves beyond what they can take fall over in collapse, their bodies completely resisting the personal desire to stay awake in order to sate the body's need for rest. In the game, people run out of dailies and hit points.
#4 alane Apr 17, 2009 4:12:03	How can we go from: "GO Go Go, kill kill kill, we must keep going," "think of the town" "We must stop the impending doom" etc to "Damn, I'm tired" "Anyone else up for a rest?" You roleplay the injuries and exhaustion. While hit points and healing surges are abstract, they do represent increasing levels of physical punishment. By the time your characters are out of surges and losing their last hit points, they are staggering around covered in blood like Bruce Willis at the end of Die Hard. There is nothing unheroic about collapsing from exhaustion or taking time to recover from injuries. Many adventure stories contain "hero is badly injured" scenes, often used as a chance for the audience to catch their breath before the next action scene begins. My favorite is probably the "flipping mirror" scene from the first Indiana Jones movie but there are many others. Is it possible for you to keep meta-game thinking out of your games in 4E as your players/characters decide when to rest? Probably not and it might not be desirable to do so. To some extent, long rests probably should be determined by meta-game considerations. When you send the party into battle with no surges and no dailies, you are living on the ragged edge and courting the dreaded TPK -- a total party wipeout. A lack of surges gives the party a glass jaw; just a couple good punches will take any character completely out of the fight, and the healer won't be able to get them back into action. If the tide of battle turns against the party under those circumstances, they won't be able to bounce back. They'll die. D&D 4e is built with an assumption of reasonable rests during adventures. In most cases, the party should be getting a short rest between each encounter and a long rest when they start hitting zero on their surges. The party members can handle the timing via roleplay ("I be so thrashed I kin hardly lif' me axe! Let's make camp.") or the DM can handle it via adventure design ("The elves of Green Forest hold a great feast in your honor. In the morning, after you have rested from your journey, they will guide you to the cursed Valley of Inevitable Decapitation") but somebody needs to be handling it. If you just keep going without surges, eventually someone will die -- and he might have a lot of company. :coolcthul - Alane - ("Oh, man, I've got a hangover from all that elven wine! Hey, what did that elf dude say this valley was called?") -
#5 matthewstryker Apr 17, 2009 8:48:55	How do your reconcile rests in game (that are necessary for meta-game reasons) that are contrary to in-game character goals? Is it possible for you to keep meta-game thinking out of your games in 4E as your players/characters decide when to rest? Endurance checks. If you keep running on low battery, then you've got to make endurance checks or lose healing surges. This simulates pushing your characters to the limits of their endurance, and that extended rest starts to look good. There was something on this in the DMG, but I don't have time to find it.
#6 CCS Apr 17, 2009 9:12:33	How do your reconcile rests in game (that are necessary for meta-game reasons) that are contrary to in-game character goals? In the 4e game I currently play in we don't make much of an attempt at it all. Instead the DM simply tells us when our dalies recharge and if/how many surges we regain. Additionally our HPs, surges, & powers begin fully charged at the start of each session. Were we to play that we actually took extended rests the story would A) simply not make any sense, B) never progress.
#7 solik Apr 17, 2009 9:28:20	Simple -- we removed them from the game. See my sig for a basic version of the rule changes (we've refined it since -- one of these days I'll post the refined rules).