Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Alamanda Mar 22, 2009 16:45:50	My character has +1 Repulsion Armor that seems useless. When I activate it my DM ignores the power. Here is the example: Round one: I activate the power Round two: Monster moves into an adjacent square, the armor pushes him back, but since the monster didn't use its full movement to get to my character the DM ruled that the monster just continues movement into the adjacent square. Doesn't this make the armor useless? Is this right because the armor says it's an immediate reaction?
#2 arlen Mar 22, 2009 16:53:07	Once the DM says "the monster attacks such-and-such" and is about to roll, he indirectly stated the monster ended his move action and is going to use his standard action. Since the repulsion armor is an immediate reaction after a monster's movement, you can activate the power right now and push the monster away. Being one square away, the monster can't charge you and can't attack you unless he has reach.
#3 gregt_314 Mar 22, 2009 18:33:27	Repulsion Armor Power (Daily): Minor Action. Whenever an enemy moves into an adjacent square, you can push that enemy 1 square as an immediate reaction. This power lasts until the end of the encounter. --- Is there a limit of only one reaction per round or anything? Because if not, doesn't it go: Round 1: (Minor Action) Activate power. Round 2: Monster has speed 5, moves 4 spaces and ends adjacent. Immediate reaction - push monster one square. Monster continues move, uses last movement point, ends adjacent. Immediate reaction - push monster one square. Doesn't matter how many times the monster moves adjacent, it keeps getting pushed. I have to say, though, that while your DM's interpretation made the armor pretty crap, the interpretation I have above makes it ridiculously good. Not particularly surprising to find yet another item from the Adventurer's Vault horribly broken - you have to wonder if they tested anything at all from that book. Any other thoughts?
#4 salla Mar 22, 2009 20:01:29	Repulsion Armor Power (Daily): Minor Action. Whenever an enemy moves into an adjacent square, you can push that enemy 1 square as an immediate reaction. This power lasts until the end of the encounter. --- Is there a limit of only one reaction per round or anything? Because if not, doesn't it go: Round 1: (Minor Action) Activate power. Round 2: Monster has speed 5, moves 4 spaces and ends adjacent. Immediate reaction - push monster one square. Monster continues move, uses last movement point, ends adjacent. Immediate reaction - push monster one square. Doesn't matter how many times the monster moves adjacent, it keeps getting pushed. I have to say, though, that while your DM's interpretation made the armor pretty crap, the interpretation I have above makes it ridiculously good. Not particularly surprising to find yet another item from the Adventurer's Vault horribly broken - you have to wonder if they tested anything at all from that book. Any other thoughts? You only get one immediate action per round, so you can only push one foe once. However, Arlen is correct when he says that, when the monster stops and prepares to attack, his move action is over. So, what should be happening is: 1. Monster uses move action to approach Repulsion Armor Bearer (RAB), ends adjacent. 2. RAB uses his immediate reaction to repulse the monster, pushing it back one square. 3. Unless the monster has reach or a ranged attack, he is out of range of RAB and cannot attack him. 4. Another monster approaches RAB. With his immediate action for the round already spent, he cannot repulse the second monster and gets attacked.
#5 gregt_314 Mar 22, 2009 20:06:29	However, Arlen is correct when he says that, when the monster stops and prepares to attack, his move action is over. Okay, but the armour is triggered by an enemy moving adjacent, not ending its move adjacent. Is there possibly a rule requiring that an action be fully resolved before an interrupt occurs? Otherwise the move 4, get repulsed, move 1 would be okay, because if the player doesn't react when it first moves adjacent the opportunity to interrupt is forfeited.
#6 DevoDog Mar 22, 2009 20:24:12	My character has +1 Repulsion Armor that seems useless. When I activate it my DM ignores the power. Your DM is being an idiot. Sure, the opponent could waste their Standard Action to move again (or in the case of Kobolds, use their At-Will shift to get to you). I think that if the Armor worked like your DM is "ruling" it would create a zone of difficult terrain around you instead of letting you push 1. If the DM gave you that armor in a treasure parcel, he (she) is being extremely unfair.
#7 wulfboy Mar 22, 2009 20:56:01	When the monster stops and prepares to attack, its too late to use the armour power. The power reacts to the enemy entering the square adjacent to you. If that enemy has movement left, it can continue to move and your immediate reaction has done nothing more than cost the target creature 1 square of movement to enter your space. Does this make the armour useless? No. The repulsion armour's usefulness is about positioning and timing. The wizard in my regular game has a set of this armour and has used it at the table for such diverse actions as: * knocking creatures prone (or off things) by positioning himself in such a way that one of the squares he can push a creature into is dangerous terrain (remember you don't need to push a creature into the square it just left - any square that is further away from you that the square it is currently in counts) * interfering with skirmish-style attacks with a movement component - sometimes he can save one of his buddies being attacked, sometimes he can completel flummox the monster's special move. * really aggravating creatures he has slowed * exploiting difficult terrain, especially difficult terrain that causes damage, by ensuring that the monster has to move through such terrain to get back to attack him. * sometimes he gets to prevent the monster's entire action if he is at the right range (given a creature 1 square away cannot charge, if he times it right he can stay far enough away that he negates a creatures attack) * setting up his buddies, especially the defender, for opportunity attacks - if he pushes a monster adjacent to the defender, the monster has a choice to continue moving (taking an opportunity attack) or to attack the defender -result for the squishy wizard. These tactics need thought and they need a little work, but they more than pay off. Repulsion Armour is not a substitute for tactics and co-operation.
#8 gregt_314 Mar 22, 2009 21:04:44	I think Wulfboy's interpretation is right; it brings the power's usefulness into line with other daily item abilities - a bonus which is significant, but not game-changing, and which requires the player to use it carefully to maximise its effectiveness.
#9 dogbackward Mar 23, 2009 2:29:49	You can also buy items that increase your Pushing distance if you want to make it more useful.
#10 gregt_314 Mar 23, 2009 2:32:01	You can also buy items that increase your Pushing distance if you want to make it more useful. Oh sweet Jeebers, really? Are we about to see a long train of Repulsion Nova fighters that fling anyone that moves into base to base with them off the battlefield? I'm beginning to feel like I'm going to have to declare the Adventurer's Vault my arch-nemesis.
#11 falstyr Mar 23, 2009 3:03:03	Repulsion Armor Power (Daily): Minor Action. Whenever an enemy moves into an adjacent square, you can push that enemy 1 square as an immediate reaction. This power lasts until the end of the encounter. It is a daily, so you only get to use it once a day as an immediate reaction. You can't use it every round or every encounter. It requires an extended rest to use again. After reading wulfboys reply...repulsing into hazardous environments. Does the repulsion define the direction in which the foe gets pushed back? Will you just repulse it 1 square back in the direction it came from or can you decide in which direction to repulse the oncoming attacker?
#12 brashnir Mar 23, 2009 3:41:59	It is a daily, so you only get to use it once a day as an immediate reaction. You can't use it every round or every encounter. It requires an extended rest to use again. After reading wulfboys reply...repulsing into hazardous environments. Does the repulsion define the direction in which the foe gets pushed back? Will you just repulse it 1 square back in the direction it came from or can you decide in which direction to repulse the oncoming attacker? With all push powers, you can choose to push an enemy into any square, as long as it is further from you than the square they're currently occupying.
#13 gregt_314 Mar 23, 2009 4:01:51	It is a daily, so you only get to use it once a day as an immediate reaction. You can't use it every round or every encounter. It requires an extended rest to use again. Read it again. Turning on the power is the daily, which takes a minor action. Once it's on, it "lasts until the end of the encounter". Which is to say, at any time until the end of the encounter when an enemy moves into an adjacent square, if you're otherwise entitled to an immediate reaction you can use one to push it.
#14 kaliban7 Mar 23, 2009 5:15:07	The repulsion power is an immediate reaction to an enenmy entering an adjacent square. Alas, it means he may still have moves left when you push him. So, yes, you DM is right, he can still use moves to "push through" the armor repulsive effect. When I looked in the PHB it was because I was sure that immediate reactions to movements ended the movement, but I was wrong. It makes the armor less desirable, but yet very interesting if you can use terrain features or allies/perimeters to you advantage.
#15 DevoDog Mar 23, 2009 8:24:35	Read it again. Turning on the power is the daily, which takes a minor action. Once it's on, it "lasts until the end of the encounter". Which is to say, at any time until the end of the encounter when an enemy moves into an adjacent square, if you're otherwise entitled to an immediate reaction you can use one to push it. I missed that part when I made my initial reply. I think the problem is with the item itself. It's cool in concept but would be almost impossible for it to actually be useful. A DM would know whether or not the opponent can actually use their movement to get next to the target. I'll probably avoid using Replusion Armor in my game or change it to: Property: While wearing this armor, you have Aura: 1 - All enemies treat the squares around you (and your square) as hindering terrain for the purposes of movement. You may deactivate (activate) this property as a Minor Action.
#16 wulfboy Mar 23, 2009 9:12:48	I think the problem is with the item itself. It's cool in concept but would be almost impossible for it to actually be useful. Really, not useless. If you want a suit of armour that makes it impossible for a monster to move next to you, this is not the armour for you. If you want a suit of armour that allows you a number of interesting tactical options during an encounter, then this is a good suit of armour that does what it says on the tin. A DM would know whether or not the opponent can actually use their movement to get next to the target. True. And as a DM I like it when my players get to do cool things, so I don't let this stop me moving a creature up. After all, the Wizard needs to decide whether to use the armour power or not. Your DM mileage may vary, making the item less or more useful, of course, but this is true of all magic items and powers.
#17 falstyr Mar 23, 2009 16:46:17	Hmmm... Well I can see how a character in my group can use it in the KoTS torture chamber encounter near the Iron Maiden :P
#18 Silvercrys Mar 23, 2009 17:49:55	Unfortunately, it appears Wulfboy is in fact correct. The rules for Immediate Reactions (Player's Handbook page 268 I believe) state quite explicitly that "If a creature triggers your immediate reaction while moving, you take your action before the creature finishes moving but after it has moved at least 1 square."
#19 chriscrouch Mar 24, 2009 2:21:17	I think the problem is with the item itself. It's cool in concept but would be almost impossible for it to actually be useful Try using the armor when you've got allies around you. Push the enemy adjacent to an ally, so that if it moves back toward you your ally gets an opportunity attack. Chris
#20 frostythepyro Mar 24, 2009 4:10:50	stand on a ledge, knock them into pits, knock them into allies, there are feets,features,PP,stances and the such that do damage/aditional effects whenever you push someone. heck if you push them next to a fighter, so they have to move away from the fighter to get to you, a fighters oportunity attack DOES stop movement. TLDR it does lots of things, usefull things, it does not make you unable to aproach (unless of course te enemy didnt have enouph mp left after being pushed)
#21 haggis13 Mar 24, 2009 8:36:44	The repulsion power is an immediate reaction to an enenmy entering an adjacent square. Alas, it means he may still have moves left when you push him. So, yes, you DM is right, he can still use moves to "push through" the armor repulsive effect. When I looked in the PHB it was because I was sure that immediate reactions to movements ended the movement, but I was wrong. It makes the armor less desirable, but yet very interesting if you can use terrain features or allies/perimeters to you advantage. This is absolutely correct. Consider the other two options (or: how I think you may have been reading the item): 1) Your character is entirely unapproachable. This would be vastly overpowered, especially since your character would be entirely unapproachable for the remainder of the encounter. 2) You can only repel an enemy once per day. This would make the item insanely underpowered. While it IS indeed true that you cannot activate the power more than once a day, the "Minor Action" bit should give you the clue that it is to be activated on your own turn. However, monsters cannot move on your own turn, so how are you supposed to ever activate a power as an immediate reaction when you cannot use immediate reactions on your own turn? The answer is: you activate the power on your own turn, thereby gaining the ability to use an immediate reaction (i.e. once per ROUND) to push an enemy one square if it moves into a square adjacent to you.
#22 m4kitsu Mar 26, 2009 3:08:09	2) You can only repel an enemy once per day. This would make the item insanely underpowered. While it IS indeed true that you cannot activate the power more than once a day, the "Minor Action" bit should give you the clue that it is to be activated on your own turn. However, monsters cannot move on your own turn, so how are you supposed to ever activate a power as an immediate reaction when you cannot use immediate reactions on your own turn? The answer is: you activate the power on your own turn, thereby gaining the ability to use an immediate reaction (i.e. once per ROUND) to push an enemy one square if it moves into a square adjacent to you. You're half right. You use a minor action on your turn to activate the armor, then by using your immediate reaction up to once per round for the duration of the encounter, you can push away an enemy that has moved adjacent. Once the encounter is over, the armor's power shuts off until you take an extended rest. As WotC has consistently shown, their lack of quality control isn't with their playtesting, but with their editing. The power makes sense, if you read it the way they meant you to.
#23 soel_griffin Mar 26, 2009 5:00:57	I wanted this armor for my warlock, thinking it possibly invalidated charge attacks against me, but it doesn't unless they moved their full movement to get to you. However, I will still make this armor, and back it up with some Gloves of Antipathy...Now we're cooking!
#24 Xaielao2 Mar 26, 2009 13:22:17	My character has +1 Repulsion Armor that seems useless. When I activate it my DM ignores the power. Here is the example: Round one: I activate the power Round two: Monster moves into an adjacent square, the armor pushes him back, but since the monster didn't use its full movement to get to my character the DM ruled that the monster just continues movement into the adjacent square. Doesn't this make the armor useless? Is this right because the armor says it's an immediate reaction? The rule for this is a little odd and doesn't follow normal rules for Immediate Actions. With 4e wording is king. This power is an Immediate Reaction, which normally means you don't act until after the target ends what it's doing, after it attacks, etc. If it said Immediate Interrupt it would mean you could use it the moment the requirements were met. However, the key difference here is movement. The rules for Immediate Reaction state specifically; "An Immediate Reaction lets you act in response to a trigger. The triggering action, event, or condition occures and is completely resolved before you take your reaction, except that you can interrupt a creature's movement. If a creature triggers your immediate reaction while moving (by coming into range, for example), you can take your action before the creature finishes moving but after it has moved at least 1 square." So normally your DM would be correct. But since it is a move action that triggers the Immediate Reaction, it acts as an interrupt in this case, so your DM is wrong. Point him to PHB p268 (Reaction sidebar) to clear it up. I notice some have argued that the DM could use remaining movement spaces to come back up to you, but I disagree. The armor requires a minor action to activate but lasts the entire encounter, so it doesn't require any more actions to repulse and isn't limited by turns. The power reads; "Power (Daily): Minor Action. Whenever an enemy moves into an adjacent square, you can push that enemy 1 square as an immediate reaction. This power lasts until the end of the encounter." Wording is very important, so it would state 'once per turn' if it were only usable once per turn. It says no such thing and there is no limit on immediate reactions (unless I've missed some errata at some point, but I don't think I have.) So that means for the rest of the encounter ANY enemy that moves adjacent to you is pushed back one square. So your DM could use remaining movement spaces to approach you again but that enemy would simply be pushed back over and over until the end of the encounter. Tactically minded players could use this armor to great affect since the power does not state which square you push the target into, so you could push him into any square 1 square away (and adjacent to the enemy I'd assume.) Working in tandem with a fighter would be very effective.
#25 dogbackward Mar 26, 2009 14:13:29	It's used as an Immediate Reaction, and you only get one Immediate action pwe turn. The armor doesn't have to explain that, since the PHb section on Immediate actions already does.
#26 Xaielao2 Mar 26, 2009 15:38:51	Your right, I forgot about that lol. With that being the case the armor needs to be changed. Perhaps the repulse should end the enemies movement similarly to warrior OAs. This could be easily house ruled.
#27 dogbackward Mar 26, 2009 16:16:27	With that being the case the armor needs to be changed. No, it really doesn't. Pushing 1 square might be a little weak, but completely preventing a melee or Close Burst 1 attack once per round for an entire encounter is way too much. You need a little tactical sense to use this armor to full effect; learn some, or don't bother trying to use it.
#28 wulfboy Mar 26, 2009 18:29:34	I'm being entertained by the idea that because this item needs some thought to use, it is apparently "broken" and needs to be "fixed" in some way.
#29 dogbackward Mar 26, 2009 20:33:19	Admittedly, there shouldn't be much in D&D that requires good tactical senses to use properly. Some people just don't have that knack, and the game shouldn't be less enjoyable for them because of that. And I agree that the armor is less powerful than it could be, since without good conditions and a good sense of tactics, you won't get much use out of it. But there isn't really anything you can do that'll make it more powerful, without making it too powerful. If it were only a one-shot instead of being for the rest of the encounter, I could see it stopping the movement as well as Pushing the target. But for the entire encounter, that's too much. As it stands, people will just have to understand that it takes tactics to use to full effect. If you can't do that at this point, there're plenty of other armors out there you can use instead.
#30 mellored Mar 27, 2009 8:44:04	The wizard in my regular game has a set of this armour and has used it at the table for such diverse actions as: * knocking creatures prone (or off things) by positioning himself in such a way that one of the squares he can push a creature into is dangerous terrain (remember you don't need to push a creature into the square it just left - any square that is further away from you that the square it is currently in counts) * interfering with skirmish-style attacks with a movement component - sometimes he can save one of his buddies being attacked, sometimes he can completel flummox the monster's special move. * really aggravating creatures he has slowed * exploiting difficult terrain, especially difficult terrain that causes damage, by ensuring that the monster has to move through such terrain to get back to attack him. * sometimes he gets to prevent the monster's entire action if he is at the right range (given a creature 1 square away cannot charge, if he times it right he can stay far enough away that he negates a creatures attack) * setting up his buddies, especially the defender, for opportunity attacks - if he pushes a monster adjacent to the defender, the monster has a choice to continue moving (taking an opportunity attack) or to attack the defender -result for the squishy wizard. Don't forget pushing creatures back into a stinking cloud, or any other of the other zones a wizard gets.
#31 sar Mar 27, 2009 12:30:55	"An Immediate Reaction lets you act in response to a trigger. The triggering action, event, or condition occures and is completely resolved before you take your reaction, except that you can interrupt a creature's movement. If a creature triggers your immediate reaction while moving (by coming into range, for example), you can take your action before the creature finishes moving but after it has moved at least 1 square." So normally your DM would be correct. But since it is a move action that triggers the Immediate Reaction, it acts as an interrupt in this case, so your DM is wrong. Point him to PHB p268 (Reaction sidebar) to clear it up. Since "wording is king" I would point out that the text says "except that you can interrupt a creature's movement. If a creature triggers your immediate reaction while moving" [emphasis yours]. Again "you can interrupt" not "must interrupt." I would rule that the player can intiate their immediate reaction as a reaction instead of an interrupt if they want to. Permissive wording, not mandatory. Sar
#32 strayth Mar 27, 2009 12:57:08	Is there a limit of only one reaction per round or anything? Because if not, doesn't it go: Yes, well, sort of. You can only take one immediate reaction per round. Technically, other types of reactions are governed by other rules (such as Opportunity attacks, which allow only one per combatant's turn). It's on the Player's Handbook page 268. "Once Per Round: You can take only one immediate action per round, either an immediate interrupt or an immediate reaction. If you haven't taken an immediate action since the end of your last turn, you can take one when a trigger allows you to. You can't take an immediate action on your own turn." Your DM is not wrong to make his NPC step forward again after you push him back. Repulsion armor is only nice for charging and slowed enemies, I think. I could be wrong, haven't tested it in an actual game. Edit: and as for the value of the armor, it's not useless. I wouldn't make it my first choice, but if it were more powerful, it would start to nudge in on the value of being a defender. Also the criteria for what "should" be in D&D definitely is not "does this depend on a player having a tactical knack?" because frankly tacticians should be rewarded for their prowess. If you aren't tactical, that's not a flaw of game design.
#33 dogbackward Mar 27, 2009 15:32:36	I wasn't saying you shouldn't be rewarded for being tactical. I'm saying you should never be punished for not being tactical. It's possible to make something that doesn't require tactics to use, but that still allows for greater power and flexibility when used tactically. As in, most of the entire 4e system. Except a few things, Repulsion Armor being one of them. But like I said, I agree that adding to it would be too much, so we'll just have to deal with it as-is. And remember not to take it unless you're sure you can make the best use of it.
#34 carahue Jul 02, 2009 13:23:51	Repulsion armor is only nice for charging and slowed enemies, I think. I could be wrong, haven't tested it in an actual game. I don't think pushing back the enemy breaks his charge. He can still continue charging if he has movement left.
#35 rav514 Jul 03, 2009 17:06:33	Here is the text for repulsion armor: Repulsion Armor Level 2+ Inlaid with esoteric runes, this armor can repel even though most persistent foes. Lvl 2 +1 520 gp Lvl 17 +4 65,000 gp Lvl 7 +2 2,600 gp Lvl 22 +5 325,000 gp Lvl 12 +3 13,000 gp Lvl 27 +6 1,625,000 gp Armor: Cloth, Leather Enhancement: AC Power (Daily): Minor Action. Whenever an enemy moves into an adjacent square, you can push that enemy 1 square as an immediate reaction. This power lasts until the end of the encounter Note the bold part, immediate reaction. Here is the text on immediate reactions. Reaction: An immediate reaction lets you act in response to a trigger. The triggering action, event, or condition occurs and is completely resolved before you take your reaction, except that you can interrupt a creature’s movement. If a creature triggers your immediate reaction while moving (by coming into range, for example), you take your action before the creature finishes moving but after it has moved at least 1 square So unfortunately yes, a creature would get to finish a move or charge or any other movement making this item almost pointless.
#36 pluisjen Jul 04, 2009 2:47:51	If you pushed a charging creature back and then to the left, wouldn't he move past you? Charging has to be done in a straight line, and you're no longer in his straight line if you do that, right?
#37 rav514 Jul 04, 2009 14:14:03	As i remember charging, it says you have to move to the closest square that you can attack the enemy, not a straight line. 3.5 saida straight line. 4.0 doesnt, i believe. So if you interupt a charge and push him, he can continue his charge as long as he " moved at least 2 square durring the charge, both parts would count and moved back into the closest square".