Any help is greatly appreciated.
I also have to find a way around the undead senses to see me even when hidden.
elaborate, please? Most undead don't have any ability to see hidden foes.
I found the feat Darkstalker in Lords of Madness that lets me hide from creatures with extraordinary senses so that will probably take care of that problem for me.
I can't think of any undead with scent off the top of my head, but that doesn't mean there isn't one. And, of course, you also want to be able to bypass other creatures with the ability. There's an alchemical item called, appropriately enough, scentbreaker. You can find details on the item in the old 3.0 book Tome and Blood as well as in the 3.0 version of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. I'm also thinking there might be a spell or two that blocks scent, but I'm not remembering any names or sources.
For tremorsense, the best (and maybe most obvious) way is to just avoid touching the ground. Various methods of gaining flight will accomplish this.
The only core creature in 3.5 with lifesense is a dread wraith. While I won't rule out other creatures from other sources having the ability, I really wouldn't worry too much about trying to account for it; it's such a rare ability that you'd almost certainly be wasting your resources trying to cover for that contingency.
The ability is called Divine Strike, and you get it at level 2.
You also get to continue sneak attack progression, but you only get a boost every third level as opposed to every other level.
Well, if all you want to do is scout you can just make a different char with hide/move silently...maybe a ranger with favored enemy in different types of undead.
A ranger with favored enemy is a nice alternative. But just to be clear, when a ranger picks "undead" as his favored enemy, he doesn't need to specify anything further. Unlike, for example, humanoids or outsiders which require picking subtypes along with the type.
Skullclan Hunter prestige class from 3.5 Miniatures Handbook.
Just no...this PrC is pretty horrid in execution. You're better off with that 'Penetrating Strike' variant Zherog mentioned in Dungeonscape (give up trap sense to be able to deal half sneak attack dice to creatures immune to precision damage). Later on pick up either a ghost strike weapon or a greater truedeath augment crystal (both from Magic Item Compendium) and you will be the major damage dealer of the group once more.
For extra fun, do some TWF action with a disrupting club in your off-hand.
It may never work, but it'll be sweet when it does.Just no...this PrC is pretty horrid in execution. You're better off with that 'Penetrating Strike' variant Zherog mentioned in Dungeonscape (give up trap sense to be able to deal half sneak attack dice to creatures immune to precision damage). Later on pick up either a ghost strike weapon or a greater truedeath augment crystal (both from Magic Item Compendium) and you will be the major damage dealer of the group once more.
For extra fun, do some TWF action with a disrupting club in your off-hand.
I never said it was any good
We have a rogue in our 3.5 game that wants to do this as a RANGED character besides. I think you said it best when you said, "Just no..."
We have a rogue in our 3.5 game that wants to do this as a RANGED character besides.
I think a Ranger at that poin would be the way to go, then, especially if you focus on Undead as your primary favored enemy and take Improved Favored Enemy.
But, yeah, that Skullclan Hunter PrC pretty much appalled me when I first read it, and it still doesn't make that much sense to me now.
Alternately, clerics have the grave strike spell from Complete Adventurer, so if you were a cleric/rogue you could use that. Libris mortis does have some magic weapons that apply precision damage on undead.
Now, it (Penetrating...) is by flank only, so, you'll be looking at melee which is where undead usually shine given their glut of creepy and often, terribly effective ways of hurting you...often w/ a healthy nod to a Fort or Will Save as fallout, neither of which is a rogue's strong suit, so, yeah, watch your ass. If you must engage in this manner, try and stay w/ in a Move Action of the Cleric under the "just in case clause" for recovery and/or resussitation.
Now, there are feats that allow SA vs. monsters that are normally immune, but feats are few and far between for a rogue, so buyer beware. I would stress, in no uncertain terms, Weapon Finesse, then levy if Darkstalker is right for you. It has great promise and will afford you more freedom given the DM's implied predilection to undead.
Otherwise, tell your crew to go through any divine supplements, Spell Cmpdnm, whatever, w/ a fine toothed comb cuz' there's always some situational spell that will work "just right"...provided the recon (that's you as a rogue) funnels that specific intel back to the casters.
Get a magic weapon (melee preferably) ASAP given incorporeal undead or any critter w/ DR...and trust me, it's gonna' happen, just a matter of time.
]Dungeonscape (give up trap sense to be able to deal half sneak attack dice to creatures immune to precision damage).
This gets my vote for best solution. Trapsense is a really mediocre ability IMHO. Half sneak attack dice against undead is a really sweet trade-off.
Also, depending upon how your stats work out, you may want to look at a few of the Skill Tricks found in Complete Scoundrel. While the majority you can't get until 5th level, they help with lots of things outside of undead to get you more Sneak Attack damage.
Another possibility is the Craven feat from... I think its Champions of Ruin. You get a -2 vs. fear effects but get an extra damage per level you have for Sneak Attacks. It doesn't sound like a whole lot, but if you get into the higher levels, a guaranteed 10+ damage isn't a bad thing, especially if that helps overcome DR for whatever you might encounter at the higher levels.
Other than that, your looking at magic weapons like ghost touch and true death to deal with the undead. Nothing says a dead undead like a 'fail you die' effect vs. undead.
You may need to double check this though.
Craven (yes, Champs of Ruin) is for heavy hitting, and yes, -2 Will vs. Fear which can be dangerous given their Will sucks and this guy is gunning for alot of undead so (Su) fear is going to be a bit more prevalent. Still, as a long term investment, it's sound, low book keeping, and handy. Lot of ppl swear by it, I'd say for raw dmg, it's a safe bet.
But, Will, a rogue's Will is sketchy at best, and a -2 as well?
I found, the simplest solution to this, that is also quite attractive to other rogue aspects & deficiencies (depending on outlook), is to be undead yourself, ie)necropolitan (Libris Mortis), though start as human before you apply the template to capitalize on the bonus feat and ranks.
So, -2 Will Saves vs. Fear (Craven) are manageable when you're immune anyway, to most, if not all, mental attacks, Intimidate (Demoralize), and oh, yes, most Fort & Con (all poisons, diseases, etc) based ones too...conveniently, the 2 of 3 Save components rogues are "weak" in.
So, you knock out 2 of the liabilities real quick. Comforting. Let's you focus on other venues and when you're not stressed out, you perform better too.
There are rare instances in which they may apply (Disintegrate for one), but being particularly stealthy as a rogue makes you hard to find, much less target in combat. They are very savvy antagonists basically.
Darkvision, always good for a rogue. This helps sneak attack more and keeps you hidden when dealing w/ other Darkvision users (like undead).
Rogue's d6 HD changing to d12, even w/out a Con adjustment, that's still damn good. Bear in mind though, Destruction (not death) occurs at 0 HP, not -10 HP. But, for what it's worth, you're averaging a bit more HP in the long run (you'll ultimately beat that 10 hp "gap" over time), just not initially. Your polarity in healing changes of course, so, Inflict ___ Wounds is the word of the day, not Cure ___ Wounds. Tell your cleric ahead of time. Etc. etc.
Appearance can be handled w/ judicious Diguise (thankfully, a class skill), Use Magic Device if you want to go that way too, that's cool, etc. Not many ppl get Spot as a class skill anyway, so maxing out Disguise ranks (maybe a decent Cha too), w/ a Hat of Disguise (cheap, universal rogue goody), and a Disguise Kit, you should be sitting pretty. Might afford you a happy accident (this happened to me), enemy cleric targeted me w/ an Inflict Critical (cuz' he thought a "human rogue" [my disguise he failed to note] would likely fail the Save given poor Save), and I voluntarilly failed it all right...so he could heal the Hell out of me before I handed him his own head. Classic.
This will also help you avoid Turn/Rebuke, something to consider, but once again, Cleric's don't get Spot as a class skill. They normally don't use Turn attempts on humans. Still, get on good terms w/ your party cleric.
Immunity to all the Fort stuff is great, better still vs. Energy Drain, Ability Drain/Dmg (he did say he was engaging undead), no fatigue and/or exhaustion (you can sprint, etc. 24/7), no sleep (constant, competant party guard during camp), no breathing (amphibious is actionable now, especially w/ Darkvision), and I hear immortality has its perks (collect antiques = $), etc.
And bla bla bla. Undeath basically shores up alot of the shortcomings of rogues and bolsters the Hell out of them for a totally decent price. Well worth the XP in a nutshell and a terrible weapon against other undead too as you are more or less immune to all their nasty FX
This will also help you avoid Turn/Rebuke, something to consider, but once again, Cleric's don't get Spot as a class skill. They normally don't use Turn attempts on humans. Still, get on good terms w/ your party cleric.
You do realize that Turn Undead works blindly on undead within 60 feet (or 30 feet, if the cleric is using the "Destroy Undead" variant)? It unfailingly targets the nearest undead first, as long as there's line of effect...
The various alternatives have already been listed above
You do realize that Turn Undead works blindly on undead within 60 feet (or 30 feet, if the cleric is using the "Destroy Undead" variant)? It unfailingly targets the nearest undead first, as long as there's line of effect...
I am well aware of the implications.
And that is a big "if" at times too. Relative to the DM often though.
Line of Sight/Effect is a tricky situation, but easilly overcome, particularly, you know, when you have Tumble as a class skill, higher Movement, rogue friendly bric-a-brac and so on. And if you're targeted as undead cuz' you didn't plan ahead and looked undead (didn't Disguise your "unique skin condition" ;) ), then you deserve it. They shouldn't even know you're there given liberal amounts of Hide & Move Silently and most enemy clerics being deficient in Spot/Listen. It'll still take 3 rnds of concentration via Detc. Undead to zero your exact position...assuming you don't move and let it happen.
Normal Turning still requires the HD quotient too, assuming they can even zero you, and I think Necropolitans get some Turn Resistance. That true? I can't recall, but it wasn't often an issue for me & mine.
And weaker undead will go first before you, so, there's more forgiveness there. There are items to help shore that up as well in addition to a million strategies that will help you circumnavigate an enemy divine type.
The Destroy Variant, I am not well versed in, so I'm not qualified to comment on that one, but if you're table adopts that rule, then you adjust accordingly. DM should give you a head's up first after character gen to be fair.
Line of Sight/Effect is a tricky situation, but easilly overcome, particularly, you know, when you have Tumble as a class skill, higher Movement, rogue friendly bric-a-brac and so on. And if you're targeted as undead cuz' you didn't plan ahead and looked undead (didn't Disguise your "unique skin condition" ;) ), then you deserve it.
The cleric doesn't even have to know you're undead to affect you with his turning, as it's just a blind barrage of positive energy. And as he'll probably have a cleric level equal to your ECL, turning a PC undead isn't that difficult...
The Destroy Variant, I am not well versed in...
It's a sweet variant (better balanced than the default ability), found in both Complete Divine and Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. Instead of making undead flee or pop like bubble wrap, you instead deal 1d6/Cleric level to all undead within 30 feet (Will half).
Normal Turning still requires the HD quotient too, assuming they can even zero you, and I think Necropolitans get some Turn Resistance. That true? I can't recall, but it wasn't often an issue for me & mine.
And weaker undead will go first before you, so, there's more forgiveness there. There are items to help shore that up as well in addition to a million strategies that will help you circumnavigate an enemy divine type.
Weaker undead don't go first.
Range: You turn the closest turnable undead first, and you can’t turn undead that are more than 60 feet away or that have total cover relative to you. You don’t need line of sight to a target, but you do need line of effect.
Closest to the cleric goes first.
Weaker undead don't go first.
Closest to the cleric goes first.
I was speaking necromantically (power/HD), not geographically. I apologize for not being clearer; truly, a bad choice of wording on my part.
Weaker undead going (dying/destroyed) 1st...to those w/in 60 or 30 ft respectively, depending on default/variant.
ie) We roll, see max HD affected, then the 2d6 + bla bla bla to see who, Turn or Destroy the weaker ones per HD, and work up the food chain. I didn't think the closest one (relative to the cleric) is the first to be turned so much as, "60 ft: these guys 25 ft out are affected per their HD w/in your scope of power by the roll, but the ones 5 ft out (higher HD let's say, beyond roll) arne't." Am I totally off here?
Moving on,
I'm considering giving that 30 ft variant a whirl as I keep getting whined @ from my g/f (cleric PC) that has said what we all keep finding; Rebuke, in terms of hunting down undead, is superior often (not always) to traditional Turn...and she can't Rebuke, though there is some wiggle room in that some neutral Clr (Jergali anyway) might have some merit in that sphere of influence.
Not to keep derailing (sorry btw), everyone should take a long hard look at the Sepulchre Thief (Cityscape) if you want to see a near perfect culmination of undeath and rogue.
Sneak-attack undead, oozes and constructs.
Top it up with TWF and craven, and enjoy ripping things apart.
Deathstrike Bracers, Magic Item Compendium (p93), 5000gp
Sneak-attack undead, oozes and constructs.
Top it up with TWF and craven, and enjoy ripping things apart.
I thought this sounded to good to be true for the price.
And it was.
You have to have a critical threat and it's usable only 3 times a day. Best to save for the occasional ooze or construct than the abundant undead your likely to face.
ie)Holy water, yes? The problem is you're only going to get a sneak attack w/ Penetrating Strike usually (melee, by flank only) so you need to equip an aspergillum (FRCS 3.0ed). Think of a mace w/ a watery resevoir in it. Guess what you fill it with...
And don't say acid.
Quick story: A friend thought once, "Ah, I'm so clever, this monster doesn't have DR to acid." and went to town. Forgot acid eats metal...like the weapon's. I couldn't believe his folly, and yes, he died. The irony being the Move Action it took to replace the scrap weapon could've been the Full Rnd Action (Full Attack) he needed to beat the monster as it was shy like 3 HP.
Other undead advice:
-Tanglefoot bags. You'll be good at ranged anyway, capitalize on that. It's usually their horrific melee attacks that are the problem. Or Spring Attack more safely this way. Especially consider this if the undead doesn't have a slashing attack and is bereft of a cutting weapon nearby. Don't use on high Str ones.
-The True Death Crystals are totally decent. Good advice there. Nj.
-Ghost Oil vs. incorporeals. +1 weapons are still 50/50
-Have a tank/monk/etc grapple it (if it's feasible [it used it's AoO, flat-footed, etc]), then sneak attack the Hell out of it.
-Keep 1 slashing (short sword), 1 piercing (dagger/rapier), 1 bludgeoning (light mace) for DR. All qualify for Weapon Finesse...which I strongly recommend.
I couldn't believe his folly, and yes, he died.
Hilarious. I like Tanglefoot bags, and ranged weapons, and holy water..by the barrel.
Hilarious. I like Tanglefoot bags, and ranged weapons, and holy water..by the barrel.
He was plenty
and I tried to restrain my laughter (have to be impartial and diplomatic as a DM, bla bla bla), but, well, you know...
The above 3 staples you've listed are better than gold usually for me & mine.
Tanglefoot Rogue Strategies:
We are particularly pleased when sending our rogue to higher altitudes (Fly, namely to be super sniper, very mobile) to engage avians, Tanglefoot'ing them, and watching gravity catch up fast where we often mop up on the deck.
-Tanglefoot + Evard's Black Tentacles, Stinking Cloud, Cloudkill, whatever. Magi Delay/Ready, Rogue opens up, bam. It's all good.
-Assassin used it to "sticky" a door shut where the lock was, uh, "compromised" prior upon the same Asn's entry. Quick, harrowing escape.
You got any advice or handy tricks for the later 2 (ranged weapons, holy water)?
If you need trapsense back, at level 5 or 9 take three to four levels of ninja, spellthief, scout, etc.