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Rogues, Daggers, Questions, And You!

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Jomero
Jun 26, 2008 15:53:36 My friends and I are starting a 4th edition campaign soon. I don't have any of the books yet, so I'm still a bit in the dark about all the rules (other than me GMing a Star Wars Saga Edition campaign, which I understand is "somewhat" similar). I called dibs on the Rogue.

Now, for almost 2 decades, the rogue/thief class never once intrigued me in the slightest. I don't know why exactly. But I preferred to play either ranged support or a meatshield. For reasons unbeknownst to me lately, I've really wanted to try a rogue.

I already know that I want my rogue to dual wield daggers. I like the idea of daggers, and feel they're more rogue-like than swords (personal preference). However, not knowing rogues in 4th edition and not ever having created a dagger-wielding character, I began to wonder. "Am I shooting myself in the foot by limiting myself to daggers?"

I really, really don't want to be an Entreri clone (even if he is a favorite character of mine). So if I can avoid any larger weapons, it would be ideal. Now, are there any advantages of using nothing but daggers? In my mind, a dagger should attack faster than a greatsword so I think "Maybe I get an extra attack?" But I am not so sure about that.

Any of you rules die-hards can tell me if a pure-dagger rogue will just be plain pathetic in the damage department or not? Or if there is a certain build or feat that can offset the gimpiness?

Any help would be appreciated!

-Jomero
#2
warcolonel
Jun 26, 2008 16:13:50 In 4th edition, the rogue has a limited amount of weapons to use. The sling, crossbows, light thrown weapons, and light blades (of which the dagger is one) are their forte. Specifically, the rogue gets a bonus to attacks when weilding daggers. So a dagger rogue is perfect, the class itself is designed to use that weapon better than most. Weilding two daggers at once is pretty good as well, since many of the rogue's attacks allow to use a ranged weapon as well as a melee, and throwing one dagger means you down't have to spend a minor action drawing a spare. As for dual attacks, taking the rogue and multiclassing into ranger is your best option since really only the ranger has many of those kinds of powers. Posing this question on the Striker boards will definately net you a bunch of responces, from tips to builds.
#3
Jomero
Jun 26, 2008 16:44:06
In 4th edition, the rogue has a limited amount of weapons to use. The sling, crossbows, light thrown weapons, and light blades (of which the dagger is one) are their forte. Specifically, the rogue gets a bonus to attacks when weilding daggers. So a dagger rogue is perfect, the class itself is designed to use that weapon better than most. Weilding two daggers at once is pretty good as well, since many of the rogue's attacks allow to use a ranged weapon as well as a melee, and throwing one dagger means you down't have to spend a minor action drawing a spare. As for dual attacks, taking the rogue and multiclassing into ranger is your best option since really only the ranger has many of those kinds of powers. Posing this question on the Striker boards will definately net you a bunch of responces, from tips to builds.

Thank you! I will post it over there. I wasn't sure where the best place to post this was, since this was kind of a general rule question about daggers as well.
#4
drmorganes
Jun 26, 2008 18:29:22 I didn't see a thread on this over on the Striker board, so I'll answer here.

I've a Level 1 elven rogue (Artful Dodger) with the Backstabber feat. She gets +8 to her dagger attacks (+4 Dex +3 Dagger Proficiency +1 Rogue Weapon Talent). With Sly Flourish, she does 1d4+7 damage (1[W]+Dex+Cha); with combat advantage, she adds 2d8 to that. Average damage works out to 17 (max of 27), with the strike landing better than half the time.

If you don't mind losing the Rogue Weapon Talent bonus to hit, a short sword boosts average damage by 1 (as does using a shuriken). Burning a feat on rapier proficiency would brings your base melee damage up to d8.
#5
wordserpent
Jun 30, 2008 14:44:21 No mater how many weapons your character uses, you may still only attack with one in a round, unless you have a character ability that allows you to make attacks with both weapons.

I created a rogue that fought with a rapier and dagger, but this character took the two weapon fighting feat as well as the two weapon defense feat. If you were to take those two feats and fight with two daggers, your rogue would get +1 to hit, +1 to damage with the two weapon feat and +1 to AC and Ref due to the two weapon defense.

Good gaming.
#6
captkurt
Jun 30, 2008 14:56:35 Mainly the idea of 2 weapons is that you can use either one for your attack...or as you already have seen, throw one and still have another in your hand without using a minor action.

Only Rangers have any ability that actually makes use of both weapons in an attack.
#7
pmurray%40bigpond.com
Jun 30, 2008 21:45:15
I didn't see a thread on this over on the Striker board, so I'll answer here.

I've a Level 1 elven rogue (Artful Dodger) with the Backstabber feat. She gets +8 to her dagger attacks (+4 Dex +3 Dagger Proficiency +1 Rogue Weapon Talent). With Sly Flourish, she does 1d4+7 damage (1[W]+Dex+Cha); with combat advantage, she adds 2d8 to that.

Woah! Why 2d8? The d8 I understand (backstabber feat), but how do you manage two die of sneak attack damage at level 1?

I gave backstabber a miss - it's an average of one extra point of damage - whoopee . I chose Halfling Agility (a potential lifesaver). Maybe quickdraw at level 3 and swap in Blinding Barrage as my 1st level daily power.
#8
maekrix_waere
Jul 01, 2008 14:03:12
Woah! Why 2d8? The d8 I understand (backstabber feat), but how do you manage two die of sneak attack damage at level 1?

In 4e, Sneak Attack starts as 2d6. It becomes 2d8 with the backstabber feat. The table of Sneak Attack Progression is on page 117 under rogue class features.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Jomero Jun 26, 2008 15:53:36	My friends and I are starting a 4th edition campaign soon. I don't have any of the books yet, so I'm still a bit in the dark about all the rules (other than me GMing a Star Wars Saga Edition campaign, which I understand is "somewhat" similar). I called dibs on the Rogue. Now, for almost 2 decades, the rogue/thief class never once intrigued me in the slightest. I don't know why exactly. But I preferred to play either ranged support or a meatshield. For reasons unbeknownst to me lately, I've really wanted to try a rogue. I already know that I want my rogue to dual wield daggers. I like the idea of daggers, and feel they're more rogue-like than swords (personal preference). However, not knowing rogues in 4th edition and not ever having created a dagger-wielding character, I began to wonder. "Am I shooting myself in the foot by limiting myself to daggers?" I really, really don't want to be an Entreri clone (even if he is a favorite character of mine). So if I can avoid any larger weapons, it would be ideal. Now, are there any advantages of using nothing but daggers? In my mind, a dagger should attack faster than a greatsword so I think "Maybe I get an extra attack?" But I am not so sure about that. Any of you rules die-hards can tell me if a pure-dagger rogue will just be plain pathetic in the damage department or not? Or if there is a certain build or feat that can offset the gimpiness? Any help would be appreciated! -Jomero
#2 warcolonel Jun 26, 2008 16:13:50	In 4th edition, the rogue has a limited amount of weapons to use. The sling, crossbows, light thrown weapons, and light blades (of which the dagger is one) are their forte. Specifically, the rogue gets a bonus to attacks when weilding daggers. So a dagger rogue is perfect, the class itself is designed to use that weapon better than most. Weilding two daggers at once is pretty good as well, since many of the rogue's attacks allow to use a ranged weapon as well as a melee, and throwing one dagger means you down't have to spend a minor action drawing a spare. As for dual attacks, taking the rogue and multiclassing into ranger is your best option since really only the ranger has many of those kinds of powers. Posing this question on the Striker boards will definately net you a bunch of responces, from tips to builds.
#3 Jomero Jun 26, 2008 16:44:06	In 4th edition, the rogue has a limited amount of weapons to use. The sling, crossbows, light thrown weapons, and light blades (of which the dagger is one) are their forte. Specifically, the rogue gets a bonus to attacks when weilding daggers. So a dagger rogue is perfect, the class itself is designed to use that weapon better than most. Weilding two daggers at once is pretty good as well, since many of the rogue's attacks allow to use a ranged weapon as well as a melee, and throwing one dagger means you down't have to spend a minor action drawing a spare. As for dual attacks, taking the rogue and multiclassing into ranger is your best option since really only the ranger has many of those kinds of powers. Posing this question on the Striker boards will definately net you a bunch of responces, from tips to builds. Thank you! I will post it over there. I wasn't sure where the best place to post this was, since this was kind of a general rule question about daggers as well.
#4 drmorganes Jun 26, 2008 18:29:22	I didn't see a thread on this over on the Striker board, so I'll answer here. I've a Level 1 elven rogue (Artful Dodger) with the Backstabber feat. She gets +8 to her dagger attacks (+4 Dex +3 Dagger Proficiency +1 Rogue Weapon Talent). With Sly Flourish, she does 1d4+7 damage (1[W]+Dex+Cha); with combat advantage, she adds 2d8 to that. Average damage works out to 17 (max of 27), with the strike landing better than half the time. If you don't mind losing the Rogue Weapon Talent bonus to hit, a short sword boosts average damage by 1 (as does using a shuriken). Burning a feat on rapier proficiency would brings your base melee damage up to d8.
#5 wordserpent Jun 30, 2008 14:44:21	No mater how many weapons your character uses, you may still only attack with one in a round, unless you have a character ability that allows you to make attacks with both weapons. I created a rogue that fought with a rapier and dagger, but this character took the two weapon fighting feat as well as the two weapon defense feat. If you were to take those two feats and fight with two daggers, your rogue would get +1 to hit, +1 to damage with the two weapon feat and +1 to AC and Ref due to the two weapon defense. Good gaming.
#6 captkurt Jun 30, 2008 14:56:35	Mainly the idea of 2 weapons is that you can use either one for your attack...or as you already have seen, throw one and still have another in your hand without using a minor action. Only Rangers have any ability that actually makes use of both weapons in an attack.
#7 pmurray%40bigpond.com Jun 30, 2008 21:45:15	I didn't see a thread on this over on the Striker board, so I'll answer here. I've a Level 1 elven rogue (Artful Dodger) with the Backstabber feat. She gets +8 to her dagger attacks (+4 Dex +3 Dagger Proficiency +1 Rogue Weapon Talent). With Sly Flourish, she does 1d4+7 damage (1[W]+Dex+Cha); with combat advantage, she adds 2d8 to that. Woah! Why 2d8? The d8 I understand (backstabber feat), but how do you manage two die of sneak attack damage at level 1? I gave backstabber a miss - it's an average of one extra point of damage - whoopee . I chose Halfling Agility (a potential lifesaver). Maybe quickdraw at level 3 and swap in Blinding Barrage as my 1st level daily power.
#8 maekrix_waere Jul 01, 2008 14:03:12	Woah! Why 2d8? The d8 I understand (backstabber feat), but how do you manage two die of sneak attack damage at level 1? In 4e, Sneak Attack starts as 2d6. It becomes 2d8 with the backstabber feat. The table of Sneak Attack Progression is on page 117 under rogue class features.