So I decided to try out a cleric for my next character and for my diety I choose The Raven Queen. Everyone was kind of happy that we would have a cleric in the group and such. My co-worker is one of the people that plays and he asked what diety I choose and I told him as this wasn't something that was going to be hidden when I introduced my character to the group. So we got to talking more about our characters (ooc of course) and one of the things that my cleric hates more then anything is the Cult of Orcus, and somehow my co-worker had made a deal with someone very powerful in the Cult of Orcus to steal souls for Orcus. Eventually this would lead to his epic destiny which is immortality by stealing enough souls.
I'm kind of stumped on how our characters would ever get along if my character found out what his character is doing. On top of that his character will know who my character serves the first time he sees my holy symbol. Regardless though, should I create a different cleric or chose another diety? If I play as is, would there be any other outcome possibly besides us fighting to the death? I'm looking to keep things as is, but I'm not sure why my character would want to stick around my buddies character if I found out. Any suggestions that I could hold onto
?Ok, so last week me and a group of friends started a new 4e campaign. I learned how fast someone can die if the DM rolls really well against them and my first character (a rogue) died, we also didn't have anyone who could heal and since everyone was lvl 1 getting my rogue raised somewhere wasn't really an option.
So I decided to try out a cleric for my next character and for my diety I choose The Raven Queen. Everyone was kind of happy that we would have a cleric in the group and such. My co-worker is one of the people that plays and he asked what diety I choose and I told him as this wasn't something that was going to be hidden when I introduced my character to the group. So we got to talking more about our characters (ooc of course) and one of the things that my cleric hates more then anything is the Cult of Orcus, and somehow my co-worker had made a deal with someone very powerful in the Cult of Orcus to steal souls for Orcus. Eventually this would lead to his epic destiny which is immortality by stealing enough souls.
I'm kind of stumped on how our characters would ever get along if my character found out what his character is doing. On top of that his character will know who my character serves the first time he sees my holy symbol. Regardless though, should I create a different cleric or chose another diety? If I play as is, would there be any other outcome possibly besides us fighting to the death? I'm looking to keep things as is, but I'm not sure why my character would want to stick around my buddies character if I found out. Any suggestions that I could hold onto
It seems to me that your co-worker is the one with the difficulty, as he's created what's clearly an evil-aligned character for what, I assume, is supposed to be a good-aligned party. I don't think any good or unaligned deity would be okay with that sort of behavior--I can't imagine even the more introspective ones looking away. So unless you're expressly playing an evil aligned campaign, play what you want, and let him worry about being found out by the "good guys."
Sorry, should of mentioned, this isn't really a "good" campaign. It's unaligned or evil pretty much.
In that case, new deity.
That's my general advice for playing D&D, but to answer your specific question, I'd say your best bet would be to change your cleric personality to be less...morally inclined. If the rest of your party is pretty evil then just worship an evil god. Otherwise I think your friend's character is going to run into problems regardless of your character's religion.
Hope that helps
Cheers,
Kyle
In a more amusing campaign, perhaps these two are fairly bad faithfuls, or unfaithfuls. As to why their gods haven't noticed, well... but then the gods' energies could be syphoned without their approval or notice in other worlds, or the gods have secret plans for them. This makes visiting their home temples interesting (or lethal).
If you are interested in giving the current mix a shot, I would congratulate you on it. It's not the easiest route, but seriously there's folks who are religiously opposed all around the world, but only in the most severe of cases does it errupt in violence. I could imagine it would cause some pretty heated bar room conversation as the two of you clash faiths over ale. I could see a lot of lies and feints and manuvering between the two of you, sort of like the fox and the hound, you both know someday it's going to come down to some kind of awful clash--but until then neither of you is willing to throw your life away on it. Maybe it ends up being your less religious friends who end up holding you together. Maybe you're secretly working to convert or subvert each other.
I guess the point is, if you're interested in going that way with it, there's a lot of juicy roleplaying opportunities with something like that aside from putting the pointy end of a scythe in the other guy's head.
Looks like you have one of two roads you can go down right now. First, and probably the easiest, is to find another god who you like but isn't going to cause PK issues. A few of the cooler evil gods in my opinion are Torag, Zehir, or Vecna--they are evil, but not like stupid stabbing people at random evil. Ioun is a good unaligned god, interested in spreading knowledge regardless of consequences. No stabbity issues there.
If you are interested in giving the current mix a shot, I would congratulate you on it. It's not the easiest route, but seriously there's folks who are religiously opposed all around the world, but only in the most severe of cases does it errupt in violence. I could imagine it would cause some pretty heated bar room conversation as the two of you clash faiths over ale. I could see a lot of lies and feints and manuvering between the two of you, sort of like the fox and the hound, you both know someday it's going to come down to some kind of awful clash--but until then neither of you is willing to throw your life away on it. Maybe it ends up being your less religious friends who end up holding you together. Maybe you're secretly working to convert or subvert each other.
I guess the point is, if you're interested in going that way with it, there's a lot of juicy roleplaying opportunities with something like that aside from putting the pointy end of a scythe in the other guy's head.
Well, after thinking over it there is just too much roleplaying "Juiciness" to give up, so I'm going to stick with it. Have our second night tonight, so we'll see what happens.
Well, after thinking over it there is just too much roleplaying "Juiciness" to give up, so I'm going to stick with it. Have our second night tonight, so we'll see what happens.
Conan: What gods do you pray to?
Subotai: I pray to the four winds... and you?
Conan: To Crom... but I seldom pray to him, he doesn't listen.
Subotai: [chuckles] What good is he then? Ah, it's just as I've always said.
Conan: He is strong! If I die, I have to go before him, and he will ask me, "What is the riddle of steel?" If I don't know it, he will cast me out of Valhalla and laugh at me. That's Crom, strong on his mountain!
Subotai: Ah, my god is greater.
Conan: [chuckles] Crom laughs at your four winds. He laughs from his mountain.
Subotai: My god is stronger. He is the everlasting sky! Your god lives underneath him.
[Conan shoots Subotai a skeptical look. Subotai laughs]
And as I recall... nobody died. Granted, neither of these two were clerics. But the point is that you can easily roleplay your two characters having diametrically opposed background goals without ever coming to blows over it.
Conan: What gods do you pray to?
Subotai: I pray to the four winds... and you?
Conan: To Crom... but I seldom pray to him, he doesn't listen.
Subotai: [chuckles] What good is he then? Ah, it's just as I've always said.
Conan: He is strong! If I die, I have to go before him, and he will ask me, "What is the riddle of steel?" If I don't know it, he will cast me out of Valhalla and laugh at me. That's Crom, strong on his mountain!
Subotai: Ah, my god is greater.
Conan: [chuckles] Crom laughs at your four winds. He laughs from his mountain.
Subotai: My god is stronger. He is the everlasting sky! Your god lives underneath him.
[Conan shoots Subotai a skeptical look. Subotai laughs]
And as I recall... nobody died. Granted, neither of these two were clerics. But the point is that you can easily roleplay your two characters having diametrically opposed background goals without ever coming to blows over it.
Generally speaking but the Raven Queen expects her followers to
"Watch out for the cults of Orcus and stamp them out whenever they arise. The Demon Prince of the Undead seeks to claim the Raven Queen's throne." PHB 22
Really, however, the best option is for one or the other of you to pick something that doesn't make a fellow PC an arch enemy just by showing up. Certainly OTHER PLAYERS didn't really sign up for the game just to be ringside at the showdown between two other PC's. While PC infighting can be great fun it may not be what everyone really wants out of the game.
If you're looking for a more comfortable, sustainable solution, change gods now while you have the opportunity to create a character that's compatible with the whole party.
And as I recall... nobody died. Granted, neither of these two were clerics. But the point is that you can easily roleplay your two characters having diametrically opposed background goals without ever coming to blows over it.
Good show, Iserith.
I agree, I think too much is made of playing your characters as archtypes, read stereotypes. You don't have to define your character that way, especially in a campaign where the gods are distant.
I find myself surrounded everyday by diverse people with vastly different world views than my own, and I don't feel compelled to kill them. If you guys are both comfortable with playing and giving it a try without being too dogmatic and your DM is okay with it then I say, do it. :D
So we got to talking more about our characters (ooc of course) and one of the things that my cleric hates more then anything is the Cult of Orcus, and somehow my co-worker had made a deal with someone very powerful in the Cult of Orcus to steal souls for Orcus. Eventually this would lead to his epic destiny which is immortality by stealing enough souls.
I know this was brought up before but your co-worker's character is evil. Is this an evil campaign? There are many warnings against playing an evil character. Your cleric of the Raven Queen would be the most opposed to his character stealing souls for Orcus but pretty much any good or unaligned character would be opposed to his actions as well. The good news is that if it does come to blows you could probably recruit the rest of the party to
whup his demon worshipping ass.
I find myself surrounded everyday by diverse people with vastly different world views than my own, and I don't feel compelled to kill them.
That would be relevant to the discussion if God gave you standing orders to kill them, or if you were in the habit of settling disputes with lethal force.
That would be relevant to the discussion if God gave you standing orders to kill them, or if you were in the habit of settling disputes with lethal force.
It is certainly relevant.
The Gods in 4E are described as distant, as is their influence, and ones power does not flow directly from them. I have yet to see one come down and directly instruct one player in a party to kill another one.
I also know people from very diverse social, cultural and religious backgrounds. Somewhere in the various dogmas I am sure there is someone who would say it is their divine, social or cultural duty, of any one of those people to kill me for simply being who I am. It hasn't happened yet.
I am sorry to hear that in other groups it is habit to settle inner party disputes with lethal force.
Although that has happened once or twice in games I have played in, it is not habit.
It is certainly relevant.
The Gods in 4E are described as distant, as is their influence, and ones power does not flow directly from them. I have yet to see one come down and directly instruct one player in a party to kill another one.
I also know people from very diverse social, cultural and religious backgrounds. Somewhere in the various dogmas I am sure there is someone who would say it is their divine, social or cultural duty, of any one of those people to kill me for simply being who I am. It hasn't happened yet.
I am sorry to hear that in other groups it is habit to settle inner party disputes with lethal force.
Although that has happened once or twice in games I have played in, it is not habit.
The point you really seem to be missing is that God's in D&D are real. There is not an extremist wing of the clergy of the Raven Queen that has somehow misinterpreted her words and thus see it as their holy duty to wipe out the cult of Orcus. The Raven Queen is real and commands her followers to wipe out the cult of Orcus. Furthermore PHB 20 "Except for the chaotic evil gods (Gruumsh and Lolth), all deities are enemies of the demons, which would rather the destroy the world than govern it."
Minja: Generally you are right and players from different backgrounds should roleplay and find a way to get along. Specifically you are wrong demon worshippers are not tolerated, not because of cultural differences and dogmas that can be overcome but because demons are real and seek to destroy the world.
The point you really seem to be missing is that God's in D&D are real.
Minja: Generally you are right and players from different backgrounds should roleplay and find a way to get along. Specifically you are wrong demon worshippers are not tolerated, not because of cultural differences and dogmas that can be overcome but because demons are real and seek to destroy the world.
One person's real is another person's dogma. ;)
It is a matter of perspective that is free to be interpreted by the players and their DM, it doesn't have to be played out to the archtype, to the stereotype, or taken as canon; unless of course these players and their DM wish to take it that way.
Again, gods are distant, the player could choose to interpret his faith's dogma, and decide that his own personal humanity is more important and may decide to make the character a long term project to try to convert and save. There are many solutions to the problem that do not involve the players fighting each other to the death.
The OP specifically asked for other potential outcomes or ways the situation could be viewed to avoid a fight to the death. I am not wrong. It is an opinion on the way the situation could be viewed and handled, specifically addressing the OPs question. I am simply offering another perspective, as have others, and none of these opinions on how to handle the issue are wrong.
It is certainly relevant.
I am sorry to hear that in other groups it is habit to settle inner party disputes with lethal force.
You're missing my point, and projecting. Don't do that.
My parties don't solve party disputes with lethal force; adventurers in general spend their careers killing people and things over disagreements. Combat is central to the game system. It's assumed that in the vast majority of games, the players and their enemies will do battle to settle disagreements over matters of faith, governance, property, philosophy, even breeding rights. In the game world, violence is occasionally acceptable as a method of conflict resolution when the involved parties are diametrically opposed and cannot (or will not) negotiate.
Suspension of disbelief is extremely hard to maintain when the only reason two characters don't rip each other apart is a metagame concern (they're both player characters, worth zero experience points). You're putting too much off on a DM to expect him to throw villains at a priestess of the Raven Queen and a person who steals souls in the service of Orcus that are more distasteful to those two characters than each other. You're automatically forcing the level of threat in every adventure to be greater and more immediate than the player characters defeating their mortal enemies. That's too much to expect from a DM.
Characters that irreconcilable are acceptable for one-off stories, but such an alliance can't last without becoming the punchline of a bad joke. We're not talking about an elf and a dwarf in a campaign in which relations between the races are strained here; we're talking about mortal enemies. One of the life goals of the church of one character is to see the other destroyed, and the other character is secretly, fervently devoted to opposing everything his teammate stands for. It's untenable in a campaign that lasts more than one story arc.
The two characters - undead-proponent and undead-slayer - can work together well, and even like each other as people, even if the end of the day there is a basic issue that will separate them.
You're missing my point, and projecting. Don't do that.
Your words, not mine, if I misunderstood, I apologize. ;)
But as I go back and look, your sentence still reads the same way to mee. I do not think creativity is too much to ask of a DM or of players, that want to try to make the situation work. I think that the options are only as limited as the creativity of the parties involved. If the players and the DM find the situation untenable then sure figure out somewhere else to go with the characters and the situation, but the OP here was asking for advice, and I gave my thoughts.
If you disagree, that is fine with me, but I am still entitled to my opinion. Which, I gave, and I continue to stand by.