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Ruining my game.

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
warhammer77x
Jul 19, 2012 22:31:55 The group I play in. The person playing the cleric is ruining my enjoying the game. He's friends with the dm, and the dm/party knows there is a problem. To start with. He is a total meta gamer. He plays like a fighter with the abilty to heal. I can handle that. The problem is that he only picks spells that are big damage like flamestrike, and such. Other more potent (non lethal) spells aren't even given a chance because they won't kill. We are lv 13, and with a cleric in the group. we kind of need him to be outside the box on some spells. Because the creatures/challenges we are up against can outright kill us. Which comes to my next issue. He only buffs himself. Only because he wants the highest AC of the party. Why get hit if you don't have to? That's fine, but remember there are other members of this party saving your butt too. So after all of that, we have to argue with him to turn undead. I've tried suggesting spells. tried telling him that a well placed "hold person" will get you the same XP as a searing light. No change. I know it's not my character to play. I know its simple meta gaming that drives his decisions, but it's ruining my game. Maybe it's just me, but I'm old school when it comes to roles in the party. If you have a suggestion, i'd love to hear it. If you think it's just me, I'll hear that too.
#2
salla
Jul 19, 2012 23:25:36 I'm assuming 3e?

As far as the buffing goes, I'd say he's doing that right. The cleric is the second most powerful class in the game. buffing himself and wading in to kick butt is playing the cleric correctly. He's already a tier 1 class; no amount of buffing is going to get anybody else up to that level.

As far as the spells go, yeah, he should probably be relying on save-or-dies, but saying he uses blasty spells is hardly 'metagaming'. Metagaming is using out-of-character knowledge for in-character purposes, typically to gain an advantage. There's not much of an advantage to using blasty spells. If anything, he's probably nerfing himself by being a blaster; 9 times out of 10, using a spell slot to do nothing but deal damage is a waste of a spell.

So, really, he's not doing anything wrong; he's just not doing it the way you would, and there's nothing wrong with that. So, yeah ... near as I can tell, it is just you.
#3
warhammer77x
Jul 20, 2012 4:02:29 As much as I hate to hear that. It's nice to hear another perspective on the matter.
#4
TheeEnthusiast
Jul 20, 2012 9:06:51 To add to the list of things you may not want to hear; I don't see how it relates to metagaming either. I saw no mention of roleplaying so I'm going to assume perhaps you guys aren't as heavy into it? Perhaps his cleric strives for power, or is more of a warrior at heart, hence the offensiveness? Im just saying not all characters tend to act like cut outs of their classes, nor should it be expected, it's more fun that way.

Now that is out of the way, here are some ways to go about it;

It's clear your biggest worry is not having someone filling their role as a leader character. You could see if the DM would nudge the cleric more in that direction, but you already stated that they are good friends.

Usually a Dm is quite aware if these situations even if they don't bring it up. You could try to appeal to the DM as a group, or individually and say, (And don't even treat it as the problem you're treating it here) Just say "hey, so since joe's cleric is a master blaster, is there any chance one of us could buy some support spells?" or bring it up in game. It may clash with class archetypes, but if everyone is okay with it, you can see if you or one of the other players could buy a spell scroll or something, with a basic healing or support abilitiy. (I plan on adding a feature like this in a campaign im working on because, of the possibility of no healer being in the group)

And if the Dm doesn't go for that, the next best thing I can offer is having to bite the bullet, and reroll a character to take over those responsibilities. And if you don't like that, or for what ever reaosn the DM won't let you do that either, you either have to live with the battle mad cleric, or find a new group. I'm sorry there may not have been an answer you were hoping for, But yeah, there's not really anything wrong with what he's doing.

Edit: Somethign I forgot to mention/ask; When you guys started this, did you discuss your characters at all, or did you just assume he would be your leader/support role because he chose cleric? Most groups (atleast the one sive been in) tend to say the type of character they're trying to build before had, so there is no confusion as to what roles may be missing.
#5
warhammer77x
Jul 20, 2012 9:46:36 I was wrong to say metagaming. I thought it was when you treat the game as a game of numbers. Neo seeing the matrix kind of thing. it's just hard to swallow knowing that all of the first lv spell slots are shield of faith, and I have to watch our wizard get beat down. Because 7 spells sit there unused. I can only take so many attacks of opportunity leaving my fights to help.
#6
DaBeerds
Jul 20, 2012 11:42:23 While it is not "metagaming" it is the player being selfish. He is supposed to be part of a team, but he is not contributing to that team.

I'm running a 3.5 campaign where the player of the cleric molded him in a similar light as the player you are talking about - more offensive in nature. BUT as he was the only healer for a time, he would bite the bullet and cast a heal spell, but only when absolutely necessary. This fit very well into his character concept but also provides the service of healing. He plays his character the way he wants, but also works with the team around him.

You also said that the player's style is ruining your fun. It is ruining anyone else's? If everyone but the offending player is not having fun then the next course of action is to bring this up to the DM. The DM might be close friends with this player but if the rest of you threaten to leave the game, the DM might have a talk with his friend...a DM is nothing without players.
#7
Cohen95
Jul 20, 2012 14:50:04
...but remember there are other members of this party saving your butt too.

There's your problem. He wants to be a one-man monster slaying machine? Let him.

When he starts begging you guys to help him, ask him flatly, out-of-character, "Are you going to start helping us too? And actually playing with the group?"

Ultimately what he's doing is playing his character the way he wants, and that's up to him. You can not like how he plays his character all day long, but it's not fair to say "your character makes me have less fun" unless he's really, truly being a jerk (and it doesn't sound like he's being a real, true jerk, just a selfish character).

Try addressing the issue out of game, and if it doesn't work, try my suggestion above. Ultimately, though, you should be trying to enjoy yourself, irrespective of how other players play their characters.
#8
salla
Jul 20, 2012 15:28:38
While it is not "metagaming" it is the player being selfish. He is supposed to be part of a team, but he is not contributing to that team.

This is as much an issue with 3e's broken spellcasters as anything else. The cleric is such a powerful class that it doesn't really *need* to be played tactically; so long as you aren't outright stupid about it, you can wreck house with it.

Unless the DM starts stacking the deck, he's unlikely to really need much of anybody else's help.

Plus, really ... blowing s**t up before it can deal even more damage is better than healing, and I would definitely not call that 'not contributing to the team'. He may not be contributing in the way clerics traditionally do so, but y'now, screw tradition.
#9
Fireclave
Jul 20, 2012 15:48:48
Edit: Somethign I forgot to mention/ask; When you guys started this, did you discuss your characters at all, or did you just assume he would be your leader/support role because he chose cleric? Most groups (atleast the one sive been in) tend to say the type of character they're trying to build before had, so there is no confusion as to what roles may be missing.

This.

It sounds like you simply assumed that since this player was playing a cleric, that he would also be invested in party healing and buffing, and then made your own character considerations based on that assumption. And while a valid and reasonable assumption, that doesn't seem to be the role this player intended to play. Assuming you're playing 3e, the 3e cleric is one of the top three most versatile and powerful classes in the game. Cleris can completely ignore healing and buffing in favor of playing "like a fighter with the abilty to heal" and still be Doing It RightTM. It's hands down one of the best ways to play a melee or melee/caster character. If this player had played any other gish, such as a Duskblade, Battle Sorcerer, or Psychic Warrior, I'm willing to bet that your objections to his play style would not be so strong.

Now, if your group did do a Session 0 to talk about character concepts and roles, and this player agreed to do healing and buffing support, then shame on him for not living up to his obligations. Shun the oath-breaker!

However, if your group has not had a Session 0, now might be a good time to take a step back to do so in order to get everyone on the same page as far as character concepts go and figure out a solution to your party's support needs.

And a note on healing in 3e. Even for a dedicated support character, it really is best done only when necessary. Aside from the Heal spell, most healing spells simply don't scale as fast as the damage you can take. You typically get more "healing" out of ending an encounter quickly to prevent damage in the first place, as opposed wasting actions and spell slots to do zero-sum damage control.
#10
iheartsharn
Jul 20, 2012 16:53:49
As much as I hate to hear that. It's nice to hear another perspective on the matter.

First, I'd like to give the OP credit for coming correct and accepting conclusions he didn't necessarily want to hear. That shows some real maturity and class.

Have you talked to the Cleric outside of the game? Maybe he can be persuaded to throw a little help your way if he knew that would make your game more fun. Also, what is your class? Can think of ways you can shine in helping your party outside of combat? You could possibly talk to your DM and fellow players about working more non-combat encounters, so the cleric can shine in combat and perhaps other people can shine out of it. Or, the DM could sometimes structure the combat to put the cleric on his back foot and encourage him to give more support to his "supporting cast". Of course, have buy-in from the cleric on this, I don't mean trying to do him wrong, just give him incentive to succeed with different sorts of tactics.
#11
salla
Jul 20, 2012 17:13:28 There was an episode of Justice League, I believe it was, where someone comments on how Superman simply barrels into fights and starts punching stuff without much of a plan. Batman comments that '[Superman] is so powerful, most of the time he doesn't need to fight tactically'.

The cleric is like that.

It's as much an issue with 3e's overpowered spellcasters as the player's choice of style; even a cleric played with mediocre skill is going to wreck house. Clerics, along with druids and wizards, can usually decide an encounter on their own. It's entirely possible he doesn't concern himself with teamwork because he simply doesn't need to ... because he's a cleric.
#12
Fireclave
Jul 20, 2012 22:25:55
There was an episode of Justice League, I believe it was, where someone comments on how Superman simply barrels into fights and starts punching stuff without much of a plan. Batman comments that '[Superman] is so powerful, most of the time he doesn't need to fight tactically'.

The cleric is like that.

Clerics live in a world of cardboard.
#13
randomvirus
Jul 22, 2012 21:26:27
There was an episode of Justice League, I believe it was, where someone comments on how Superman simply barrels into fights and starts punching stuff without much of a plan. Batman comments that '[Superman] is so powerful, most of the time he doesn't need to fight tactically'.

The cleric is like that.

Clerics live in a world of cardboard.

My brother told me about a Superman comic where Metropolis was evacuated completely so that Supes no longer had to hold back when he fought some bad guy. The force of his punches levelled entire city blocks (that clip might be based on that...)

Anyways, back to the rails:

Assuming that it's the cleric's responsibility to buff the party is wrong on anybody's part. Just because someone is a cleric doesn't stop that person from being a self-loving super-inflated-egotistical zealot, convinced that the best chance for his party's survival is him.

Also this is something my 4e players always praise about 4e, is that the classes have a way of developing synergy between each other, like a warlord for example that grants attacks to party members, a Bard's majestic word that allows an ally to slide to a different position (iirc) and defenders that mark enemies encouraging them to ignore companions and punishing them if they don't.

We (and this is just our opinion) feel that one of the big problems with 3e and Pathfinder is that the game tends to lean towards "Making my character bigger and badder than everyone else's."
#14
salla
Jul 22, 2012 21:59:27
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />Assuming that it's the cleric's responsibility to buff the party is wrong on anybody's part. Just because someone is a cleric doesn't stop that person from being a self-loving super-inflated-egotistical zealot, convinced that the best chance for his party's survival is him.

And he's probably right.

Of course, your characterization of him is questionable at best. We have no indication whatosever that the player's ego is the source of his play style, unless 'playing the character the way he enjoys doing so' is now somehow a faux pas ... and if it is, I'm glad I'll never go anywhere near your table.
#15
CURBSTOMP
Jul 29, 2012 14:28:36 Umm... why don't YOU take a level of cleric, bard, or paladin? and carry around a bunch of Cure Light Wounds Wands to heal up between encounters? No risk of failure that way b/c Cure Light Wounds would be 'on your spell list'.

And a Belt of Healing to heal up during encounters

And maybe a feat like Improved Toughness and throw on some armor that gives you DR for additional durability.

If you do all of these things your vulnerability to HP damage will drop considerably.

Best thing: these are all inexpensive solutions for a level 13 character.

If you want an expensive add-ons consider Heavy Fortification on your armor or a shield/buckler or getting a spellcaster to Craft Contingent Spell something like Heal on you.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 warhammer77x Jul 19, 2012 22:31:55	The group I play in. The person playing the cleric is ruining my enjoying the game. He's friends with the dm, and the dm/party knows there is a problem. To start with. He is a total meta gamer. He plays like a fighter with the abilty to heal. I can handle that. The problem is that he only picks spells that are big damage like flamestrike, and such. Other more potent (non lethal) spells aren't even given a chance because they won't kill. We are lv 13, and with a cleric in the group. we kind of need him to be outside the box on some spells. Because the creatures/challenges we are up against can outright kill us. Which comes to my next issue. He only buffs himself. Only because he wants the highest AC of the party. Why get hit if you don't have to? That's fine, but remember there are other members of this party saving your butt too. So after all of that, we have to argue with him to turn undead. I've tried suggesting spells. tried telling him that a well placed "hold person" will get you the same XP as a searing light. No change. I know it's not my character to play. I know its simple meta gaming that drives his decisions, but it's ruining my game. Maybe it's just me, but I'm old school when it comes to roles in the party. If you have a suggestion, i'd love to hear it. If you think it's just me, I'll hear that too.
#2 salla Jul 19, 2012 23:25:36	I'm assuming 3e? As far as the buffing goes, I'd say he's doing that right. The cleric is the second most powerful class in the game. buffing himself and wading in to kick butt is playing the cleric correctly. He's already a tier 1 class; no amount of buffing is going to get anybody else up to that level. As far as the spells go, yeah, he should probably be relying on save-or-dies, but saying he uses blasty spells is hardly 'metagaming'. Metagaming is using out-of-character knowledge for in-character purposes, typically to gain an advantage. There's not much of an advantage to using blasty spells. If anything, he's probably nerfing himself by being a blaster; 9 times out of 10, using a spell slot to do nothing but deal damage is a waste of a spell. So, really, he's not doing anything wrong; he's just not doing it the way you would, and there's nothing wrong with that. So, yeah ... near as I can tell, it is just you.
#3 warhammer77x Jul 20, 2012 4:02:29	As much as I hate to hear that. It's nice to hear another perspective on the matter.
#4 TheeEnthusiast Jul 20, 2012 9:06:51	To add to the list of things you may not want to hear; I don't see how it relates to metagaming either. I saw no mention of roleplaying so I'm going to assume perhaps you guys aren't as heavy into it? Perhaps his cleric strives for power, or is more of a warrior at heart, hence the offensiveness? Im just saying not all characters tend to act like cut outs of their classes, nor should it be expected, it's more fun that way. Now that is out of the way, here are some ways to go about it; It's clear your biggest worry is not having someone filling their role as a leader character. You could see if the DM would nudge the cleric more in that direction, but you already stated that they are good friends. Usually a Dm is quite aware if these situations even if they don't bring it up. You could try to appeal to the DM as a group, or individually and say, (And don't even treat it as the problem you're treating it here) Just say "hey, so since joe's cleric is a master blaster, is there any chance one of us could buy some support spells?" or bring it up in game. It may clash with class archetypes, but if everyone is okay with it, you can see if you or one of the other players could buy a spell scroll or something, with a basic healing or support abilitiy. (I plan on adding a feature like this in a campaign im working on because, of the possibility of no healer being in the group) And if the Dm doesn't go for that, the next best thing I can offer is having to bite the bullet, and reroll a character to take over those responsibilities. And if you don't like that, or for what ever reaosn the DM won't let you do that either, you either have to live with the battle mad cleric, or find a new group. I'm sorry there may not have been an answer you were hoping for, But yeah, there's not really anything wrong with what he's doing. Edit: Somethign I forgot to mention/ask; When you guys started this, did you discuss your characters at all, or did you just assume he would be your leader/support role because he chose cleric? Most groups (atleast the one sive been in) tend to say the type of character they're trying to build before had, so there is no confusion as to what roles may be missing.
#5 warhammer77x Jul 20, 2012 9:46:36	I was wrong to say metagaming. I thought it was when you treat the game as a game of numbers. Neo seeing the matrix kind of thing. it's just hard to swallow knowing that all of the first lv spell slots are shield of faith, and I have to watch our wizard get beat down. Because 7 spells sit there unused. I can only take so many attacks of opportunity leaving my fights to help.
#6 DaBeerds Jul 20, 2012 11:42:23	While it is not "metagaming" it is the player being selfish. He is supposed to be part of a team, but he is not contributing to that team. I'm running a 3.5 campaign where the player of the cleric molded him in a similar light as the player you are talking about - more offensive in nature. BUT as he was the only healer for a time, he would bite the bullet and cast a heal spell, but only when absolutely necessary. This fit very well into his character concept but also provides the service of healing. He plays his character the way he wants, but also works with the team around him. You also said that the player's style is ruining your fun. It is ruining anyone else's? If everyone but the offending player is not having fun then the next course of action is to bring this up to the DM. The DM might be close friends with this player but if the rest of you threaten to leave the game, the DM might have a talk with his friend...a DM is nothing without players.
#7 Cohen95 Jul 20, 2012 14:50:04	...but remember there are other members of this party saving your butt too. There's your problem. He wants to be a one-man monster slaying machine? Let him. When he starts begging you guys to help him, ask him flatly, out-of-character, "Are you going to start helping us too? And actually playing with the group?" Ultimately what he's doing is playing his character the way he wants, and that's up to him. You can not like how he plays his character all day long, but it's not fair to say "your character makes me have less fun" unless he's really, truly being a jerk (and it doesn't sound like he's being a real, true jerk, just a selfish character). Try addressing the issue out of game, and if it doesn't work, try my suggestion above. Ultimately, though, you should be trying to enjoy yourself, irrespective of how other players play their characters.
#8 salla Jul 20, 2012 15:28:38	While it is not "metagaming" it is the player being selfish. He is supposed to be part of a team, but he is not contributing to that team. This is as much an issue with 3e's broken spellcasters as anything else. The cleric is such a powerful class that it doesn't really need to be played tactically; so long as you aren't outright stupid about it, you can wreck house with it. Unless the DM starts stacking the deck, he's unlikely to really need much of anybody else's help. Plus, really ... blowing s**t up before it can deal even more damage is better than healing, and I would definitely not call that 'not contributing to the team'. He may not be contributing in the way clerics traditionally do so, but y'now, screw tradition.
#9 Fireclave Jul 20, 2012 15:48:48	Edit: Somethign I forgot to mention/ask; When you guys started this, did you discuss your characters at all, or did you just assume he would be your leader/support role because he chose cleric? Most groups (atleast the one sive been in) tend to say the type of character they're trying to build before had, so there is no confusion as to what roles may be missing. This. It sounds like you simply assumed that since this player was playing a cleric, that he would also be invested in party healing and buffing, and then made your own character considerations based on that assumption. And while a valid and reasonable assumption, that doesn't seem to be the role this player intended to play. Assuming you're playing 3e, the 3e cleric is one of the top three most versatile and powerful classes in the game. Cleris can completely ignore healing and buffing in favor of playing "like a fighter with the abilty to heal" and still be Doing It RightTM. It's hands down one of the best ways to play a melee or melee/caster character. If this player had played any other gish, such as a Duskblade, Battle Sorcerer, or Psychic Warrior, I'm willing to bet that your objections to his play style would not be so strong. Now, if your group did do a Session 0 to talk about character concepts and roles, and this player agreed to do healing and buffing support, then shame on him for not living up to his obligations. Shun the oath-breaker! However, if your group has not had a Session 0, now might be a good time to take a step back to do so in order to get everyone on the same page as far as character concepts go and figure out a solution to your party's support needs. And a note on healing in 3e. Even for a dedicated support character, it really is best done only when necessary. Aside from the Heal spell, most healing spells simply don't scale as fast as the damage you can take. You typically get more "healing" out of ending an encounter quickly to prevent damage in the first place, as opposed wasting actions and spell slots to do zero-sum damage control.
#10 iheartsharn Jul 20, 2012 16:53:49	As much as I hate to hear that. It's nice to hear another perspective on the matter. First, I'd like to give the OP credit for coming correct and accepting conclusions he didn't necessarily want to hear. That shows some real maturity and class. Have you talked to the Cleric outside of the game? Maybe he can be persuaded to throw a little help your way if he knew that would make your game more fun. Also, what is your class? Can think of ways you can shine in helping your party outside of combat? You could possibly talk to your DM and fellow players about working more non-combat encounters, so the cleric can shine in combat and perhaps other people can shine out of it. Or, the DM could sometimes structure the combat to put the cleric on his back foot and encourage him to give more support to his "supporting cast". Of course, have buy-in from the cleric on this, I don't mean trying to do him wrong, just give him incentive to succeed with different sorts of tactics.
#11 salla Jul 20, 2012 17:13:28	There was an episode of Justice League, I believe it was, where someone comments on how Superman simply barrels into fights and starts punching stuff without much of a plan. Batman comments that '[Superman] is so powerful, most of the time he doesn't need to fight tactically'. The cleric is like that. It's as much an issue with 3e's overpowered spellcasters as the player's choice of style; even a cleric played with mediocre skill is going to wreck house. Clerics, along with druids and wizards, can usually decide an encounter on their own. It's entirely possible he doesn't concern himself with teamwork because he simply doesn't need to ... because he's a cleric.
#12 Fireclave Jul 20, 2012 22:25:55	There was an episode of Justice League, I believe it was, where someone comments on how Superman simply barrels into fights and starts punching stuff without much of a plan. Batman comments that '[Superman] is so powerful, most of the time he doesn't need to fight tactically'. The cleric is like that. Clerics live in a world of cardboard.
#13 randomvirus Jul 22, 2012 21:26:27	There was an episode of Justice League, I believe it was, where someone comments on how Superman simply barrels into fights and starts punching stuff without much of a plan. Batman comments that '[Superman] is so powerful, most of the time he doesn't need to fight tactically'. The cleric is like that. Clerics live in a world of cardboard. My brother told me about a Superman comic where Metropolis was evacuated completely so that Supes no longer had to hold back when he fought some bad guy. The force of his punches levelled entire city blocks (that clip might be based on that...) Anyways, back to the rails: Assuming that it's the cleric's responsibility to buff the party is wrong on anybody's part. Just because someone is a cleric doesn't stop that person from being a self-loving super-inflated-egotistical zealot, convinced that the best chance for his party's survival is him. Also this is something my 4e players always praise about 4e, is that the classes have a way of developing synergy between each other, like a warlord for example that grants attacks to party members, a Bard's majestic word that allows an ally to slide to a different position (iirc) and defenders that mark enemies encouraging them to ignore companions and punishing them if they don't. We (and this is just our opinion) feel that one of the big problems with 3e and Pathfinder is that the game tends to lean towards "Making my character bigger and badder than everyone else's."
#14 salla Jul 22, 2012 21:59:27	..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />Assuming that it's the cleric's responsibility to buff the party is wrong on anybody's part. Just because someone is a cleric doesn't stop that person from being a self-loving super-inflated-egotistical zealot, convinced that the best chance for his party's survival is him. And he's probably right. Of course, your characterization of him is questionable at best. We have no indication whatosever that the player's ego is the source of his play style, unless 'playing the character the way he enjoys doing so' is now somehow a faux pas ... and if it is, I'm glad I'll never go anywhere near your table.
#15 CURBSTOMP Jul 29, 2012 14:28:36	Umm... why don't YOU take a level of cleric, bard, or paladin? and carry around a bunch of Cure Light Wounds Wands to heal up between encounters? No risk of failure that way b/c Cure Light Wounds would be 'on your spell list'. And a Belt of Healing to heal up during encounters And maybe a feat like Improved Toughness and throw on some armor that gives you DR for additional durability. If you do all of these things your vulnerability to HP damage will drop considerably. Best thing: these are all inexpensive solutions for a level 13 character. If you want an expensive add-ons consider Heavy Fortification on your armor or a shield/buckler or getting a spellcaster to Craft Contingent Spell something like Heal on you.