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Seeking Advice

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
lunais
Apr 19, 2009 2:39:43 I'm playing a Human Cleric, and for my at-wills I chose Lance of Faith, Sacred Flame, and Priest's Shield. My stats are STR 10, CON 10, DEX 10, INT 16, WIS 18, CHA 12. Since I have 10 STR and Priest's shield isn't affected by melee training, it really isn't doing anything for me, so I asked the DM if I could trade the bonus at-will racial bonus for something else. He said he didn't know what would be a fair trade.

So, my question is, what would be reasonable to trade an at-will power for?
#2
atmaweapon
Apr 19, 2009 3:52:39 ...

Why is your int 16 while your con and str are 10?

I mean, if you have something you're going for, that's fine, and I'm not even talking about being "rediculous super-optimal" or anything like that, but I mean, really, 16 int on a cleric? That's just poor stat placement.

And the answer to your question is basically fundamentally "nothing". Either the exta at-will is AWESOME for your character, or it isn't. It's therefore either worth so much that you'd never give it up, or it's worth less then an extra trained skill.
#3
tiornys
Apr 19, 2009 3:56:28
I'm playing a Human Cleric, and for my at-wills I chose Lance of Faith, Sacred Flame, and Priest's Shield. My stats are STR 10, CON 10, DEX 10, INT 16, WIS 18, CHA 12. Since I have 10 STR and Priest's shield isn't affected by melee training, it really isn't doing anything for me, so I asked the DM if I could trade the bonus at-will racial bonus for something else. He said he didn't know what would be a fair trade.

So, my question is, what would be reasonable to trade an at-will power for?

Divine Power will almost certainly have more options for Wis-based at-will powers for Clerics, so once that hits you won't have a problem. In the meantime, I'd suggest seeing if your DM will let you adapt one of the Bard or Shaman ranged at-will powers.

Also, I don't see a particular problem with 16 Int. It helps AC in light armor, Reflex defense, and Int-based skills (like Religion) and rituals.

t~
#4
sarge_billco
Apr 19, 2009 10:34:58 Yes, the Cleric in my group has expressed frustration that because Religion is an "Intelligence" based skill, the Wizards know more about it then he does. There were three checks yesterday that he missed that one of the wizards made instead. So he's getting grief (what kind of religion did you study back at the temple...why do I have to tell you this stuff). He's a dwarf...they are elves. It's getting tense. I imagine soon he will stop healing them
#5
freylorn
Apr 19, 2009 10:39:48 I'd argue why the cleric is rolling in the first place, actually. The religion skill, as I see it, is more for a scholastic study of faiths. It's what you'd use to identify some ancient ritual from some hidden cult, or some particularly unknown undead. If it's something the cleric is sure to have learned at his church anyways, why roll? That's like having the ranger roll a perception check to see if she can hear what her friend 5 feet away is saying to her.
#6
Marandahir
Apr 19, 2009 10:46:33 What was that? I think I failed a Perception Check.

Knowledge Skills aren't tied down to class type. Just because a class offers the skill as a learned skill doesn't mean it's optimal to take it, nor does it mean the skill should magically be based on the abilities the class focuses on.
#7
lunais
Apr 19, 2009 18:11:34 I put the 16 in INT for knowledge skills, reflex defense, AC, but mainly because of the character. When's the last time you got lifted off the ground by a 15 year old girl?

I am planning to multiclass bard at 4th level, and divine power also seems interesting. The fighter in our group is already using martial power, so I'll probably wait for that to come out.
#8
s-marrow
Apr 19, 2009 18:52:20 ...getting at your actual question...

For me, the third at-will for humans is pretty much the race's defining power. It's kind of hard to balance that, but since you are a cleric, how about being able to use two different channel divinity powers per encounter?

I think this would be a fair trade, and make taking a Channel Divinity feat more worthwhile. I've always felt that most of the deity Channel Divinity powers aren't really worth spending a feat on as they are
#9
w00f
Apr 20, 2009 1:27:16 I think that the best way to handle this dilemma would actually be to create and balance a new at-will ranged cleric power. Of course, you'll need to try really hard to make sure that you don't break the ability. The easiest way to do that is to make it similar to another ability.

For example: how about a Lance of Faith variant that gives an ally +2 to one defense score instead of to an attack roll? If people think that's too powerful, then perhaps it can only give +2 to a single NAD (that's certainly not overpowered).
#10
kouk
Apr 20, 2009 6:28:00 For that character, as a DM I would likely just let you choose an at-will from another class as if you were a Half-Elf, or give you an extra feat at least, until Divine Power comes out.

And I wouldn't underestimate athletes on a girl's high school team. Just search for some of those records.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 lunais Apr 19, 2009 2:39:43	I'm playing a Human Cleric, and for my at-wills I chose Lance of Faith, Sacred Flame, and Priest's Shield. My stats are STR 10, CON 10, DEX 10, INT 16, WIS 18, CHA 12. Since I have 10 STR and Priest's shield isn't affected by melee training, it really isn't doing anything for me, so I asked the DM if I could trade the bonus at-will racial bonus for something else. He said he didn't know what would be a fair trade. So, my question is, what would be reasonable to trade an at-will power for?
#2 atmaweapon Apr 19, 2009 3:52:39	... Why is your int 16 while your con and str are 10? I mean, if you have something you're going for, that's fine, and I'm not even talking about being "rediculous super-optimal" or anything like that, but I mean, really, 16 int on a cleric? That's just poor stat placement. And the answer to your question is basically fundamentally "nothing". Either the exta at-will is AWESOME for your character, or it isn't. It's therefore either worth so much that you'd never give it up, or it's worth less then an extra trained skill.
#3 tiornys Apr 19, 2009 3:56:28	I'm playing a Human Cleric, and for my at-wills I chose Lance of Faith, Sacred Flame, and Priest's Shield. My stats are STR 10, CON 10, DEX 10, INT 16, WIS 18, CHA 12. Since I have 10 STR and Priest's shield isn't affected by melee training, it really isn't doing anything for me, so I asked the DM if I could trade the bonus at-will racial bonus for something else. He said he didn't know what would be a fair trade. So, my question is, what would be reasonable to trade an at-will power for? Divine Power will almost certainly have more options for Wis-based at-will powers for Clerics, so once that hits you won't have a problem. In the meantime, I'd suggest seeing if your DM will let you adapt one of the Bard or Shaman ranged at-will powers. Also, I don't see a particular problem with 16 Int. It helps AC in light armor, Reflex defense, and Int-based skills (like Religion) and rituals. t~
#4 sarge_billco Apr 19, 2009 10:34:58	Yes, the Cleric in my group has expressed frustration that because Religion is an "Intelligence" based skill, the Wizards know more about it then he does. There were three checks yesterday that he missed that one of the wizards made instead. So he's getting grief (what kind of religion did you study back at the temple...why do I have to tell you this stuff). He's a dwarf...they are elves. It's getting tense. I imagine soon he will stop healing them
#5 freylorn Apr 19, 2009 10:39:48	I'd argue why the cleric is rolling in the first place, actually. The religion skill, as I see it, is more for a scholastic study of faiths. It's what you'd use to identify some ancient ritual from some hidden cult, or some particularly unknown undead. If it's something the cleric is sure to have learned at his church anyways, why roll? That's like having the ranger roll a perception check to see if she can hear what her friend 5 feet away is saying to her.
#6 Marandahir Apr 19, 2009 10:46:33	What was that? I think I failed a Perception Check. Knowledge Skills aren't tied down to class type. Just because a class offers the skill as a learned skill doesn't mean it's optimal to take it, nor does it mean the skill should magically be based on the abilities the class focuses on.
#7 lunais Apr 19, 2009 18:11:34	I put the 16 in INT for knowledge skills, reflex defense, AC, but mainly because of the character. When's the last time you got lifted off the ground by a 15 year old girl? I am planning to multiclass bard at 4th level, and divine power also seems interesting. The fighter in our group is already using martial power, so I'll probably wait for that to come out.
#8 s-marrow Apr 19, 2009 18:52:20	...getting at your actual question... For me, the third at-will for humans is pretty much the race's defining power. It's kind of hard to balance that, but since you are a cleric, how about being able to use two different channel divinity powers per encounter? I think this would be a fair trade, and make taking a Channel Divinity feat more worthwhile. I've always felt that most of the deity Channel Divinity powers aren't really worth spending a feat on as they are
#9 w00f Apr 20, 2009 1:27:16	I think that the best way to handle this dilemma would actually be to create and balance a new at-will ranged cleric power. Of course, you'll need to try really hard to make sure that you don't break the ability. The easiest way to do that is to make it similar to another ability. For example: how about a Lance of Faith variant that gives an ally +2 to one defense score instead of to an attack roll? If people think that's too powerful, then perhaps it can only give +2 to a single NAD (that's certainly not overpowered).
#10 kouk Apr 20, 2009 6:28:00	For that character, as a DM I would likely just let you choose an at-will from another class as if you were a Half-Elf, or give you an extra feat at least, until Divine Power comes out. And I wouldn't underestimate athletes on a girl's high school team. Just search for some of those records.