http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=46304
I've won initiative
My First round: I use Shadow Blink to teleport directly behind him, and full attack.
he uses Shifting Defense to move 5' away, I do not pursue, as I can't use Mirrored Movement (can't use a Swift and Immediate in your turn)
His First Round:
Moves back initiates Tornado Throw, moves back 5', then moves in 10' (total of 15' moved). Uses his drow scorpion chain to attempt to trip/throw me...which will most likely be successful (stupid touch attacks!).
What are my options here....? He's going to keep using Shifting Defense, I guarantee it.
Then he's probably going to be using other Throws as well (Comet, etc).
I'm getting po'd just thinking about this....to be honest.
Second, stop missing :P If you don't miss, he can't shift away.
Third, if all else fails, game the system. Grapple him. Even if he uses Lightning Throw to chuck you 60' away, there's nothing in the description that says he actually gets out of the grapple; he should be right there in the square with you (60' away from the start position). These kinds of shenanigans depend heavily on the DM.
Fourth... lose. It's a tourney. Somebody's gotta win and somebody's gotta lose. It's not all bad news. Take into consideration what you've learned about the weaknesses in your build, and patch it up for the next time around.
He cannot use shifting defense when flat footed, since he cannot move while he's flat footed. Shifting defense does not allow you to move while flat footed.
Also, stance of alacrity will help you counter his shifting defense. The stance allows you to use 2 counters in a round. Use shadow blink as a swift action, attack, he uses shifting defense to move 5 feet, you use mirrored pursuit or stalking shadow to move next to him.
Also, you can take a 5 foot step between attacks when using a full round action to attack him, so shifting defense should not be a problem as long as you don't miss him with your attacks too much.
Lastly, you need a decent attack roll so you don't miss the guy too often, obviously. A high attack roll will make his shifting defense useless, unless he has a stupidly high AC for some reason. If this is the case, you can take two levels of psychic warrior and get deep impact. It allows you to expend your psionic focus to make your next attack a touch attack. Read up on it in the EPH, it should help you hit him easily.
You could also post this question on the character optimization board. They'll have some good ideas there.
I am not familiar with the abilities mentioned, but it seems that the problem is that he is stepping out of your range then throwing you away from him. Have you thought about using a reach weapon so as to make attacks of oppotunity when he uses his throwing abilities?
You could also post this question on the character optimization board. They'll have some good ideas there.
It's a bunch of Tome of Battle: Books of "Rules? We don't need rules" cheese.
Cartigan's had long enough, though, that he's well past the margin of error for knee-jerk reactions. He's just one of those people that hates to see warriors that don't suck, and whines about brokenness and cheese any time a functional warrior option appears and is used. :P
Anyone know where shifting defense is? I can only find shifter defense and it doesn't do anything like what is posted?
Cartigan's had long enough, though, that he's well past the margin of error for knee-jerk reactions. He's just one of those people that hates to see warriors that don't suck, and whines about brokenness and cheese any time a functional warrior option appears and is used. :P
Bull. The book just ignores rules just for the sake of doing it. For instance, the maneuver that bypasses the entire jump skill tree - "oh you want to jump? roll a die and jump that far. Nah, you don't need a jump check."
Bull. The book just ignores rules just for the sake of doing it. For instance, the maneuver that bypasses the entire jump skill tree - "oh you want to jump? roll a die and jump that far. Nah, you don't need a jump check."
Umm... that's how jump works. You roll a die, and your roll is how far you jump.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/jump.htm
PS, it's impossible for Tome of Battle to break the rules, the book is rules, and rules aren't capable of breaking themselves.
You can accurately say that you don't like the rules, but there isn't any rulebreaking in the book, on account that it's a book of rules.
(Wonders when Cartigan finds out about a class called the Wizard, which at level 7 can go anywhere in the world in a standard action.)
Umm... that's how jump works. You roll a die, and your roll is how far you jump.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/jump.htm
Not quite. It's a move action that requires a 20ft running start.
With Sudden Leap, you just roll and jump as a swift action.
You're ignoring the fact that wizards, clerics, and druids can do things outside the realm of reality quite easily.
And you are ignoring the fact that those are spells. ToB just ignores rules it feels inconvenient.
And you are ignoring the fact that those are spells. ToB just ignores rules it feels inconvenient.
So basically, if it's called a "spell", it's alright if it isn't logical. But if it's a lesser effect and called a "maneuver", it's somehow wrong?
Oh, and Tome of Battle ignores no rules. It writes new rules. There's a difference.
Also: "those are spells" makes something okay when it does infinitely more than the warrior ability you're complaining about? What about that doesn't scream out to you that you just hate warriors that don't suck? I mean, thanks for demonstrating my point beyond a shadow of doubt and all, but seriously, what's going on inside your skull that you don't see how ridiculous that is?
Also: "those are spells" makes something okay when it does infinitely more than the warrior ability you're complaining about?
Yes. Spells have their own rules.
What about that doesn't scream out to you that you just hate warriors that don't suck?
I don't know, let's ask some one who isn't a knee-jerk ToB sycophant.
Yes. Spells have their own rules.
So do maneuvers. Your logic is incomplete.
I don't know, let's ask some one who isn't a knee-jerk ToB sycophant.
argumentum ad hominem
But I'm still a beatstick, at the end of the day...
His argument has been shown to be faulty and unless he provides some new insight soon, his whole argument will fall like a house of cards. Call him names and we'll have to deal with him for the next couple of weeks, at least.
Eh screw it, I'll take out the previous post. It's not serving any good.
The jump thing assumes 20' head start. If you don't get that you double the DC. That is a big feat to reduce the DC by half and lets you do it faster?
That's why I'm not even going to the books for references. I'm attacking his definitions.
Your "attack" is faulty. "Tome of Battle writes new rules." No, it doesn't. It is breaking existing rules because Jump is it's own thing that ToB does not update the skill to say "you no longer need a running start or use up your movement, or move action, when doing it."
Oops.
There are no supplements to D&D. Just the core three, and dozens of books of broken rules.
Or, we can discard the notion that anything new is breaking the rules, and move on. Either way, parroting the argument that has been shown to be illogical isn't gaining you points. An honorable man would back out of the argument at this point, having been proven that his opinions are ludicrous.
By Cartigan's definitions, any feat or spell including core feats and spells that enable a character to do something they couldn't do otherwise, breaks the rules. Oh, and skills, let's not forget skills. Characters provoke AoOs when they leave threatened space, Tumble must break the rules.
Here you go.
Moving through a Square
Friend: You can move through a square occupied by a friendly character, unless you are charging. When you move through a square occupied by a friendly character, that character doesn’t provide you with cover.
Opponent: You can’t move through a square occupied by an opponent, unless the opponent is helpless. You can move through a square occupied by a helpless opponent without penalty. (Some creatures, particularly very large ones, may present an obstacle even when helpless. In such cases, each square you move through counts as 2 squares.)
Ending Your Movement: You can’t end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless.
Overrun: During your movement you can attempt to move through a square occupied by an opponent.
Tumbling: A trained character can attempt to tumble through a square occupied by an opponent (see the Tumble skill).
Very Small Creature: A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square. The creature provokes attacks of opportunity when doing so.
Square Occupied by Creature Three Sizes Larger or Smaller: Any creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories larger than it is.
A big creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories smaller than it is.
That is in the rules. Is there a spell that let's you do the same things tome of battle does?
I just object to the phrasing. If whatsisface doesn't like the mechanics of Tome of Battle, that's fine, I have neither the ability nor the desire to debate that. (In fact, I would like very much to know what this maneuver that Joe Cool keeps referring to is called, I'm starting to believe that Slappy here doesn't even know what he's protesting.)
Personally, I don't think that realism has any weight at all when it conflicts with the fun potential of the game. Characters being able to do ridiculously powerful things is amusing, and it's fun, magic-users should be reined in a bit but not too much, the over-the-topness can be entertaining. However, weapon-users and skill-users should be given equally powerful and useful options, even though it's not realistic for them to get away with such powerful things, because for many people it's not fun to be drastically less useful and capable than their companions.
Some people just find skillful type character concepts or warrior type character concepts more fun than magic-user types. They shouldn't be forced into either playing a concept they'd prefer not to, or ranging in contribution from mediocre to terrible in a high-impact game. That may be realistic, but it's just not fun.
Here you go.
That is in the rules. Is there a spell that let's you do the same things tome of battle does?
No, but spells in general are more powerful than ToB maneuvers. There aren't many that do exactly the same things as maneuvers, but there's no maneuver that rivals the ability of Color Spray at first level, glitterdust at second, Deep Slumber at third, and so forth.
Furthermore, any time anyone prints a new spell, feat, base class, PrC, new use for skill, magic item, or new mechanic, it "breaks the rules", according to Cartigan's logic.
There are no supplements to D&D. Just the core three, and dozens of books of broken rules.
Or, we can discard the notion that anything new is breaking the rules, and move on. Either way, parroting the argument that has been shown to be illogical isn't gaining you points. An honorable man would back out of the argument at this point, having been proven that his opinions are ludicrous.
In most cases if that happen in the other books they also put what the normal rule in and how it has changed. Core still overides though.
*tries this again, hopefully without the blood-pressure spike this time*
Good point, but I feel that when fighters, rogues and such start doing drastically unrealistic things it makes them feel too much like they are simply melee spellcasters. The realism is what seperates the nonmagical from the magical characters. That is why I feel that the solution is a debuff for magical characters.
No, but spells in general are more powerful than ToB maneuvers. There aren't many that do exactly the same things as maneuvers, but there's no maneuver that rivals the ability of Color Spray at first level, glitterdust at second, Deep Slumber at third, and so forth.
Now I'm not a guy who uses that book so I'm no expert. And not trying to make anybody mad. I just want to stat that first hand.
What about Evasive reflexes? A human with that and combat reflexes could take upto four more 5' step actions each round.
I don't care what anyone says about, "It made melee into casting! Grr!"
What it did was make melee into FUN.
I can't ever see myself playing a non-ToB melee character now. It's just too much fun.
And its not even the power jump. My 6th level warblade / 1st level Bloodclaw Master, (in the campaign session that ended minutes ago) set off Combat Rhythm and had 4 attacks at +21/+21/+21/+18 to damage. 1 of those hit.
And before that I tumbled up to the creature (huge with 15ft reach) initiated Soaring Raptor Strike (standard action), flew into the air over its head (even used an AP to make my jump check) and attacked it from above.
The knight full attacking did more than 50 damage to it with two attacks. My Soaring Raptor Strike did a little over 20 BEFORE DR. But it was the simple fact that I could do something so cool that made it worthwhile.
God is it nice not to HAVE to say, "I full attack," anymore.
EDIT: I realized after posting that I'm contributing to the derailing of this thread, but I've wanted to say something on this subject for a while, and inspiration struck me, so here it is. Sorry for the derail.
I have nothing but love for ToB.
I don't care what anyone says about, "It made melee into casting! Grr!"
What it did was make melee into FUN.
I can't ever see myself playing a non-ToB melee character now. It's just too much fun.
And its not even the power jump. My 6th level warblade / 1st level Bloodclaw Master, (in the campaign session that ended minutes ago) set off Combat Rhythm and had 4 attacks at +21/+21/+21/+18 to damage. 1 of those hit.
And before that I tumbled up to the creature (huge with 15ft reach) initiated Soaring Raptor Strike (standard action), flew into the air over its head (even used an AP to make my jump check) and attacked it from above.
The knight full attacking did more than 50 damage to it with two attacks. My Soaring Raptor Strike did a little over 20 BEFORE DR. But it was the simple fact that I could do something so cool that made it worthwhile.
God is it nice not to HAVE to say, "I full attack," anymore.
So all of you on here are saying that there is no way for a non casters to keep up with a caster in combat with out TOB?
Non casters died march 24, 2008So all of you on here are saying that there is no way for a non casters to keep up with a caster in combat with out TOB?
Exactly. Because ToB isn't just a victim of powercreep - it's a complete override of every single melee character before it. It's the 800lb gorilla in the room and it appears in every bloody thread about melee classes. If I was DM, I would ban it because it isn't the same game.
So all of you on here are saying that there is no way for a non casters to keep up with a caster in combat with out TOB?
Pretty much. There's always exceptions to this rule (rogues and barbarians for example).
But did you READ what I said? It wasn't the power jump that makes it so much fun (though that is a large part of it). It's the OPTIONS that makes it so much fun.
Casters get so many options its not even funny. And they're all viable and worthwhile options. Before ToB the fighter said, "Hmm, I could trip or full attack..." and that was it (or disarm, or grapple, or whatever singular focus the fighter character could eek out in combat).
Now I'm not a guy who uses that book so I'm no expert. And not trying to make anybody mad. I just want to stat that first hand.
What about Evasive reflexes? A human with that and combat reflexes could take upto four more 5' step actions each round.
Well, there's nothing that springs to mind, but in all actuality, that's not a huge deal in my opinion. It relies on the opponent missing attacks, and in my game, that doesn't happen often.
Pretty much. There's always exceptions to this rule (rogues and barbarians for example).
I'd argue against barbarians being viable in higher levels, there's not a lot they can do that a fighter can't do, but better, with the exception of living in the wilderness.
Exactly. Because ToB isn't just a victim of powercreep - it's a complete override of every single melee character before it. It's the 800lb gorilla in the room and it appears in every bloody thread about melee classes. If I was DM, I would ban it because it isn't the same game.
Now, if you had said that in the first place, I wouldn't have argued with you, because that's not a bad reason to dislike the book.
Cleric: Class that introduced a mechanic gained from leveling that allows them to "break the rules". Shield of Faith, Word of Recall, Freedom of Movement, Spell Immunity, etc.
Psion/etc: Classes that introduced a mechanic gained from leveling that allows them to "break the rules". Vigor, etc.
Crusader/Swordsage/etc: Classes that introduced a mechanic gained from leveling that allows them to "break the rules". War Master's Charge, Order Forged from Chaos, etc.
Why is a spell more ok than a power or maneuver?
Now, I'll actually post something that gets this thread Back on Topic, and helps the OP:
First off, as DM I wouldn't allow him to take a 5-foot step back, and then initiate Tornado Throw, since the maneuver requires moving, and you can't move and 5 foot step in the same round, but not every DM would be of that same mindset, I can guarantee. Some would even argue "But it's a 9th level maneuver!", but I still wouldn't allow it. Plenty of other ways, especially with maneuvers, to get around that (Sudden Leap, anyone?)
Short of using a reach weapon to hit him even when he moves back, keep one thing in mind: Utilizing the Shifting Defense's five-foot step is an Immediate action. He can only do it once per round, and cannot do it again until after his turn is over. Pounce in, full-attack. He shifts away from your first attack, take your five-foot step, finish out your full attack. Simple.
Granted, you lose out on your highest bonus attack, but there's plenty of ways to boost your attack bonuses so it doesn't matter as much.
.In the book it says they can only activate it if you miss him with an attack. (and it is a swift action in the book) If the OP doesn't miss he can't use the ability. You could try to sundering his weapon. It also says that it goes off his AoO list that means one per round unless he has combat reflexes. Which that is a good chance that he has it. You could use splash weapons on him. And Blast globes work real well.
There are tons of options with out using that book. Power is the number one reason for using it if people would be honest.
I found shifting defense, Thanks guys
In the book it says they can only activate it if you miss him with an attack. (and it is a swift action in the book) If the OP doesn't miss he can't use the ability. You try to sunder his weapon. It also says that it goes off his AoO list that means one per round unless he has combat reflexes. Which that is a good chance that he has it. You could use splash weapons on him. And Blast globes work real well.
There are tons of options with out using that book. Power is the number one reason for using it if people would be honest.
I don't think you are reading the mechanics of it correctly.
Firstly , its a stance, which means the immediate action is only to active it. Once on its ability can be used any time the conditions are met.
Secondly, those conditions, as laid out in the second part of the description
Your opponent has to make an attack, and you have to have attacks of opportunity left. The whole "failed attack" stuff is in the fluff description.
Obviously , in its written state it does make you basically invulnerable to opponents without reach weapons so long as you have space to move. Even the counter "Mirrored Pursuit" which looks to be the opposite has several restrictions that make it useless against people using shifting defense, its a counter so it can only be used once per round as an immediate action, and as you cant interrupt a full attack action to perform another action, you cant use it to follow someone you are full attacking anyway.
Your best offense is probably invisibility so he doesnt know where its safe to move to, the +5ft reach power from desert flame, or some of the "move and make attacks against everyone you move past". Using Tornado throw yourself would mean the more he moved the more damage you would do once you finally got your hands on him.
Sorry. You still can't use the ability FF as it says on page 45. The OP said he acted first. How did the dude start the shifting defense before he got his turn?What was the point in putting the 2nd part of that pargraph in there for? It only confuses people.
You can maintain stances indefinitely, so I guess he started combat in that stance. As a martial adept you will pretty much walk around in a stance all the time apart from when you are sleeping. For instance, as a crusader with a reach weapon you would likely walk around with "Iron Guards Glare" on all the time, so that if someone surprised your party and tried to attack people near you they would get penalties if they did so within your reach.
And if you were travelling across rough country you could use the "Step of the wind" stance to ignore difficult terrain, probably travelling as fast or faster than a horse, all day.
You can maintain stances indefinitely, so I guess he started combat in that stance. As a martial adept you will pretty much walk around in a stance all the time apart from when you are sleeping. For instance, as a crusader with a reach weapon you would likely walk around with "Iron Guards Glare" on all the time, so that if someone surprised your party and tried to attack people near you they would get penalties if they did so within your reach.
And if you were travelling across rough country you could use the "Step of the wind" stance to ignore difficult terrain, probably travelling as fast or faster than a horse, all day.
One I say that is BS (the book not you). Any good DM is going to limit that. Otherwise you could ride your horse in the stance or the like. This book looks more and more like some a bunch of players got together. Found every rules that they didn't want the DM to use on them and wrote a book countering them all. Sure wish I could cast a spell and keep it active until I dropped or decided it wasn't helpful any more. It seems more balanced to have the stance only last during combat unless the stance was one that would be of use in non combat. Like the terrain one you said above.
Reminds me of a marshal's auras...
Auras are just gimped Bard songs.
One I say that is BS (the book not you). Any good DM is going to limit that. Otherwise you could ride your horse in the stance or the like. This book looks more and more like some a bunch of players got together. Found every rules that they didn't want the DM to use on them and wrote a book countering them all. Sure wish I could cast a spell and keep it active until I dropped or decided it wasn't helpful any more. It seems more balanced to have the stance only last during combat unless the stance was one that would be of use in non combat. Like the terrain one you said above.
I don't see how this is cheese or how it "counters the rules". If that is true then every class feature "counters the rules" making it fine.
Think of stances as passive class abilities(ones that are on at all times). Sure the classes have several to choose from but they cant have them all on at the same time. Not to mention they have a limited amount of said stances. The stance to make yourself go quicker shouldnt work on a mount and im quite positive it dosent since the stance is for you not those around you. Its alot like a monks increased speed or a barbarians fast movement. Are those broken?
The one thing people misunderstand is that DnD is not supposed to be realistic. It never was. People think it is supposed to be medieval Europe with spells which is wrong. DnD is a world of magic , creatures from the imagination , and a world where heroes acheive feats greater than any normal person could imagine doing.
Melee people arent supposed to be kept down by the laws of physics i this game just as magic dosent follow any sort of reality. These characters are supposed to be paragons of normal men. They accomplish what normal people only fathom. So yes , it isnt crazy that a fighter dosent have to run 20 feet to take no penalties on a jump and instead just jump (which still requires a roll to even hit) because the physical training he has indured has enabled him to go beyond normal mortal limits just as a wizard studying a spellbook his whole life takes him beyond normal mental limits.
Thats what this game is whether you like it or not. Not being realistic is not a good argument in DnD. Because DnD isnt supposed to be realistic! If you dont like it please play another game as most of us dont want to see people spreading false implications of the game.
Auras are just gimped Bard songs.
Auras are certainly better than Inspire Competence and Inspire Courage. The other bard songs are hit or miss in a situation, depending on what your DM does in the campaign.
"..."
"What? He's a negative effect on me, since his influence reaches across all planes. I just ended him."
"*shakes head*"
Auras are certainly better than Inspire Competence and Inspire Courage. The other bard songs are hit or miss in a situation, depending on what your DM does in the campaign.
That's not what I mean. I mean they are gimped Bard songs in that they don't have access to Bard feats or prestige classes because they "emit an aura" instead of "sing."
From my interpretation (and I would like to believe that I do possess a decent mastery of the english language), the stance simply gives you the ability to spend an AoO to take a 5-ft step whenever someone attacks you. He does not have to miss or anything. It occurs automatically whenever he declares an attack on you. The term immediate probably refers more in the layman sense (similar to how immediate is used in the wording for the cleave feat, to mean instantaneous timing, rather than it costing an immediate action, and thus limiting you to 1 use/round).
This means that unless he has 10+ ft reach, his attacks will always miss so long as you have AoOs remaining, since you move away whenever he tries to attack you. It is not an AoO (it merely uses them to fuel it), and does not seem to cost any actions (it is simply part of the enemy attacking you, so you can activate it at anytime, even when flat-footed.
The confusion seems to stem from the fluff contradicting the benefits of the stance somewhat, but in this case, mechanics should trump flavour.
You do have a few options. One is to use a spiked chain, so you can still attack him successfully even if he moves away.
If you have at least as many AoOs as your opponent, you can consider using thicket of blades to drain them (you attack him, he moves away, which triggers another AoO due to thicket. You attack with the AoO, he must opt to burn another AoO to move away in response or suck up the attack, and so on and so forth until one side runs out of AoOs). Not sure how effectively it may be though, since you are reduced to mundane strikes.
I don't see how this is cheese or how it "counters the rules". If that is true then every class feature "counters the rules" making it fine.
Think of stances as passive class abilities(ones that are on at all times). Sure the classes have several to choose from but they cant have them all on at the same time. Not to mention they have a limited amount of said stances. The stance to make yourself go quicker shouldnt work on a mount and im quite positive it dosent since the stance is for you not those around you. Its alot like a monks increased speed or a barbarians fast movement. Are those broken?
The one thing people misunderstand is that DnD is not supposed to be realistic. It never was. People think it is supposed to be medieval Europe with spells which is wrong. DnD is a world of magic , creatures from the imagination , and a world where heroes acheive feats greater than any normal person could imagine doing.
Melee people arent supposed to be kept down by the laws of physics i this game just as magic dosent follow any sort of reality. These characters are supposed to be paragons of normal men. They accomplish what normal people only fathom. So yes , it isnt crazy that a fighter dosent have to run 20 feet to take no penalties on a jump and instead just jump (which still requires a roll to even hit) because the physical training he has indured has enabled him to go beyond normal mortal limits just as a wizard studying a spellbook his whole life takes him beyond normal mental limits.
Thats what this game is whether you like it or not. Not being realistic is not a good argument in DnD. Because DnD isnt supposed to be realistic! If you dont like it please play another game as most of us dont want to see people spreading false implications of the game.
Except There is no rule that says you are limited to what speed is given to you by race. Other wise that speed wouldn't be allowed to be reduce by armor. What class feature not in that book would be countering rules? An example that involved a rule would be nice.
I am not sure I am following the argument about shifting defense correctly thus far. My understanding of the stance seems to run contrary to what has been posted.
From my interpretation (and I would like to believe that I do possess a decent mastery of the english language), the stance simply gives you the ability to spend an AoO to take a 5-ft step whenever someone attacks you. He does not have to miss or anything. It occurs automatically whenever he declares an attack on you. The term immediate probably refers more in the layman sense (similar to how immediate is used in the wording for the cleave feat, to mean instantaneous timing, rather than it costing an immediate action, and thus limiting you to 1 use/round).
This means that unless he has 10+ ft reach, his attacks will always miss so long as you have AoOs remaining, since you move away whenever he tries to attack you. It is not an AoO (it merely uses them to fuel it), and does not seem to cost any actions (it is simply part of the enemy attacking you, so you can activate it at anytime, even when flat-footed.
The confusion seems to stem from the fluff contradicting the benefits of the stance somewhat, but in this case, mechanics should trump flavour.
You do have a few options. One is to use a spiked chain, so you can still attack him successfully even if he moves away.
If you have at least as many AoOs as your opponent, you can consider using thicket of blades to drain them (you attack him, he moves away, which triggers another AoO due to thicket. You attack with the AoO, he must opt to burn another AoO to move away in response or suck up the attack, and so on and so forth until one side runs out of AoOs). Not sure how effectively it may be though, since you are reduced to mundane strikes.
Thanks, I will look again some times I miss the little thing.
That only makes the move sound worse. What if a DM was using that move against his/her players? How many players would be on here yelling and screeming bloody murder?
He only needs a ranged weapon. That would use up all the AoO. Blast globs would still work too. No attack roll and it is an area attack.
What if a DM was using that move against his/her players? How many players would be on here yelling and screeming bloody murder?
I won't really see it as a big deal. It is 4-v-1 matchup, and I doubt the BBEG will have a high enough dex to fuel shifting defense vs a combined assault from all 4-5 party members.
He could try grapple?
Anything that makes him immobile would be the way to go.
Depending on his stats (and this will be highly unlikely to succeed), you might want to try entangling him. Tanglefoot bags are targeted via Ranged Touch (which shouldn't be hard to hit, honestly). He'll probably make the save, so he won't be pinned to the floor, but he won't be able to take 5 foot steps, as his speed is halved. Granted, the next round he'll just move out of it, and then open up on you like before, but at least it gets you a round's worth of attacks on him.
Tanglefoot bag him, Blink over to him (because he'll move when you attack him with that bag, but since it's targeted against him and not the square it won't matter), open up on him. Use an item to grant an extra standard action for that bag. Belt of Battle or the like, that way you still get all your normal actions in the round.
There's a couple things out there that do similar things. You've just got to make the terrain rough, since then he can't make 5 foot steps due to speed being halved. If you can redo your feats, Earth Devotion (Complete Champion) should allow you to do that, iirc, as well.
Well he has weapon focus trident. Why not just use that? He could even get flesh grinding on it for good measure.
What about Net and Trident tactical feat then?
First note: It really, really irritates me how every maneuver and stance in this book has an extra paragraph beforehand that describes what the thing does, unneccessarily, and often in a confusing manner that is either redundant or to some degree contraindicatory to what the damn thing *actually does*.
This is a standing complaint of mine about ToB, but this particularly highlights it, since it says in the first paragraph 'each failed attack' and in the second 'each time an opponent attacks you'. D'aargh.
Alright, so here's what I'm seeing.
Each time you attack him, he gets a 5' step.
Second Note: It does not say he steps before you attack. If I were DMing, I'd assume the step happens after/during the attack, so you're still getting that attack- he's just not in range for subsequent ones unless you then five foot step.
This consumes one of his attacks of opportunity, does not provoke AoO, and so on.
You also get a 5' step, so you're going to pull off at least two attacks on him each round that you can get next to him without using your 5' step or a move action. So. Here's what you do.
First off, before you do anything else, walk up to him and *don't* attack. If he stays in melee combat, great! Between your insta-move abilities and your 5' step, you'll start getting two attacks per round- maybe three- off on him. That's not so bad. Meanwhile, he can provoke AoOs from you, which you should be taking every chance you get.
Second off, if he doesn't stay in melee combat when you do that, just keep up what you've been doing, only stay on the side of him with the most ground. He'll either back himself into a corner, in which case you get even more attacks off against him as he squeezes by, or he'll have to try moving past you- again, allowing you to get off even more attacks against him. At worst, he's cut you down to two attacks (one if you run out of distance-hops) against him per round until you force him to move through your threatened area, and that's not all that bad, considering unless you're using two-weapon or flurry, those first two are the only ones with a good chance of hitting to begin with.
Third off, if he cuts it down to one attack from you per round, punish him for it. Make every attack a strike or a heavy-duty power attack or something to that effect. If you run out of Martial strikes, make a standard-action trip attempt. If you can get him down, just stand over him- he'll provoke an AoO from you for getting up, too.
Finally, ranged weapons don't care about a 5' difference worth crap, so if you have one, you can just stand there and shoot him over and over with your bow. Let him take all the 5' steps he wants then, you only have to move if he steps behind cover.
There's no reason to complicate this mid-battle by talking about items and maneuvers you don't have- there's a way to cope with what you've already got, surely, and you can leave changing things until after the battle when you have more free time to worry about it.
Really Final Note: I Mean It This Time: I can't help but notice that this guy has absolutely no standard-maneuver-massive-damage-single-attack capability. There's got to be a way to take advantage of this.
SuperFinal Note: I Didn't Mean It, I Was Lying: He also is dual-wielding for relatively tiny damage. Stone Dragon maneuvers are your friend- at this level, surely you have access to that good old Adamantine Bones strike (DR 20/Adamantine- his top damage is a whopping 17- 34 on a critical)
Failing this, if you have any way to get DR that's not /magic or /slashing, abuse it all to hell. Also, his Reflex save is his low one, so AoE spells are indeed your friend, especially since they aren't attacks. By the by, what the hell are *you* using in this fight?
Additional Edit and Note Gods Damn I'm Tired of This: Wait, that's *you* with the war fans. Well, hell, you've *got* your solution. Screw melee, you're wearing Gloves of Throwing. Storm him with those fans! THEN back him into a corner.
Okay, so I went and had a look here at this thread and saw all this argument about Shifting Defense- and I happen to have my copy of ToB on hand so I had a look at it.
First note: It really, really irritates me how every maneuver and stance in this book has an extra paragraph beforehand that describes what the thing does, unneccessarily, and often in a confusing manner that is either redundant or to some degree contraindicatory to what the damn thing *actually does*.
This is a standing complaint of mine about ToB, but this particularly highlights it, since it says in the first paragraph 'each failed attack' and in the second 'each time an opponent attacks you'. D'aargh.
Alright, so here's what I'm seeing.
Each time you attack him, he gets a 5' step.
Second Note: It does not say he steps before you attack. If I were DMing, I'd assume the step happens after/during the attack, so you're still getting that attack- he's just not in range for subsequent ones unless you then five foot step.
This consumes one of his attacks of opportunity, does not provoke AoO, and so on.
You also get a 5' step, so you're going to pull off at least two attacks on him each round that you can get next to him without using your 5' step or a move action. So. Here's what you do.
First off, before you do anything else, walk up to him and *don't* attack. If he stays in melee combat, great! Between your insta-move abilities and your 5' step, you'll start getting two attacks per round- maybe three- off on him. That's not so bad. Meanwhile, he can provoke AoOs from you, which you should be taking every chance you get.
Second off, if he doesn't stay in melee combat when you do that, just keep up what you've been doing, only stay on the side of him with the most ground. He'll either back himself into a corner, in which case you get even more attacks off against him as he squeezes by, or he'll have to try moving past you- again, allowing you to get off even more attacks against him. At worst, he's cut you down to two attacks (one if you run out of distance-hops) against him per round until you force him to move through your threatened area, and that's not all that bad, considering unless you're using two-weapon or flurry, those first two are the only ones with a good chance of hitting to begin with.
Third off, if he cuts it down to one attack from you per round, punish him for it. Make every attack a strike or a heavy-duty power attack or something to that effect. If you run out of Martial strikes, make a standard-action trip attempt. If you can get him down, just stand over him- he'll provoke an AoO from you for getting up, too.
Finally, ranged weapons don't care about a 5' difference worth crap, so if you have one, you can just stand there and shoot him over and over with your bow. Let him take all the 5' steps he wants then, you only have to move if he steps behind cover.
There's no reason to complicate this mid-battle by talking about items and maneuvers you don't have- there's a way to cope with what you've already got, surely, and you can leave changing things until after the battle when you have more free time to worry about it.
Really Final Note: I Mean It This Time: I can't help but notice that this guy has absolutely no standard-maneuver-massive-damage-single-attack capability. There's got to be a way to take advantage of this.
SuperFinal Note: I Didn't Mean It, I Was Lying: He also is dual-wielding for relatively tiny damage. Stone Dragon maneuvers are your friend- at this level, surely you have access to that good old Adamantine Bones strike (DR 20/Adamantine- his top damage is a whopping 17- 34 on a critical)
Failing this, if you have any way to get DR that's not /magic or /slashing, abuse it all to hell. Also, his Reflex save is his low one, so AoE spells are indeed your friend, especially since they aren't attacks. By the by, what the hell are *you* using in this fight?
Additional Edit and Note Gods Damn I'm Tired of This: Wait, that's *you* with the war fans. Well, hell, you've *got* your solution. Screw melee, you're wearing Gloves of Throwing. Storm him with those fans! THEN back him into a corner.
AMEN!
Or ranged-pin his feet to the floor. :PExcept There is no rule that says you are limited to what speed is given to you by race. Other wise that speed wouldn't be allowed to be reduce by armor. What class feature not in that book would be countering rules? An example that involved a rule would be nice.
What I was inferring was that there are no rules in the TOB that break other rules , and if these rules "Break the rules" when they obviously dont , then all the other class abilities "Break the rules" too.
The most popular "break the rules" example given are the jumping abilities from the Tiger Claw school. Let me list off why none of these "break the rules".
1. It is never stated in RAW Jump skill rules that you CANNOT make a jump standing still. In fact you can , at a 2x DC penalty. It also never states that you cannot override this with a special ability.
2. There are no Tiger Claw abilities that allow you to exceed your total speed or allow you to move farther than the jump check enables. For an example Death from Above requires a DC 20 jump check and you may only land adjacent to the opponent but no more than 20 feet away from where you started the maneuver. Swooping Dragon Strike states that " The result of this jump check must be sufficient to allow you to move through an opponent's space and over her." How do those break the rules?
3. Some of these moves allow you to jump without running without taking the 2x DC just as Tumble allows you to not take AoO when you should and Evasion allows you to not take damage when you should.
If ToB maneuvers and stances break the rules then so do things like tumble , evasion etc. If you have a specific ToB ability that does break the rules in mind. How would it counter the rules and please show the example.
To stay on topic (sorry guys) Dosen't it say in the first paragraph "Each failed attack gives you the split-second you need to move without drawing attacks"? I would infer this means you must miss the target first , then he gets to move. Sounds like just bad wording to me , but thats how I would play it.
He would also need combat reflexes to get more than one 5ft step away and considering that during an attack you also are entitled to a 5ft step you can just get right back up to him. If he does have combat reflexes you could also try using it against him (if the character linked is your character).