Here was his response to my rational:
"No limit per day: is that there only to signify that you can take one after every battle? Also look in the text under renew power. It specifically says, " so they are available for your next encounter." It was never a matter of not using healing powers during a short rest, it is simply a matter of whether taking ten to fifteen minutes of rest is really enough rationale to basically get double healing for each of your healing surges you spend. If the answer is yes then it makes a class feature and about four feats , three of which are paragon feats, obsolete. These are all in the PH2 if you want to look for them.
None of your arguements convince me. Sorry. The tactic feels like an exploitation of the rules system and just doesnt make sense from a realistic stand point either. The way I look at it is five minutes , if you ris a short restested 10minutes, thats still 1 short rest. Unless you expend energy in some way (battle, skill challenge) in between the rests, then it is simple one short rest.
If you are worried that much about your Healing surges than there are 2 solutions I can see. 1. Take the feat "durable". Or 2 dont have such a low Con score next time you make a character.
I dont mind you expresseing your views but I remain unconvinced"
He wishes for me to hunt through the PHB for some feats, though honestly, with no list or reference to said feats I am not incredibly motivated to hunt through and guess which ones he's talking about.
Please, help would be very appreciated!
P.S. Please, do not give any "help" that is the following: "It's the DM's game, he can do what he wants." or, "Quit the game." These are neither helpful or useful, and I am fully aware of them. Thank you!
Assuming you are a cleric and used 2 x Healing Words in the last combat encounter.
You start a short rest (rest #1): Regain uses of Healing Word
Another short rest (rest #2): Use 2 x Healing Word
Another short rest (rest #3): Regain uses of Healing Word for next encounter . . . anyone not healed by Healing Word will just have to use their surges without any bonus.
The party will have rested for 15 minutes to achieve this. Not always possible, and not always in the group's best interest (that's 15 minutes that the bad guys have to re-arrange their forces, plus maybe find you!)
One example of a feat that requires this kind of approach: Restful Healing.
This is by the RAW.
If the DM feels it is cheesy than he should be arranging to interrupt the rests with events if that makes more sense to the story. If it does not make sense in that way, then surely PCs whould be be able to take longer rests, and should gain *something* from doing so?
Otherwise what the DM simply ends up forcing you to do is take Extrended Rests more often . . . does he find that annoying too? Perhaps he just wants the PCs to be lower down on resources more often? There are fairer in-game ways to achieve that than blocking use of more short rests. More challenging encounters, time constraints for adventures etc etc
IMO: You are right, your DM wrong.
Assuming you are a cleric and used 2 x Healing Words in the last combat encounter.
You start a short rest (rest #1): Regain uses of Healing Word
Another short rest (rest #2): Use 2 x Healing Word
Another short rest (rest #3): Regain uses of Healing Word for next encounter . . . anyone not healed by Healing Word will just have to use their surges without any bonus.
The party will have rested for 15 minutes to achieve this. Not always possible, and not always in the group's best interest (that's 15 minutes that the bad guys have to re-arrange their forces, plus maybe find you!)
One example of a feat that requires this kind of approach: Restful Healing.
This is by the RAW.
If the DM feels it is cheesy than he should be arranging to interrupt the rests with events if that makes more sense to the story. If it does not make sense in that way, then surely PCs whould be be able to take longer rests, and should gain *something* from doing so?
Otherwise what the DM simply ends up forcing you to do is take Extrended Rests more often . . . does he find that annoying too? Perhaps he just wants the PCs to be lower down on resources more often? There are fairer in-game ways to achieve that than blocking use of more short rests. More challenging encounters, time constraints for adventures etc etc
Well.... The current campaign we're running is split into 5 parts, I believe, and we're on part 2. All the encounters are geared towards a party of 8 people, since we had that many originally. We lost a lot of players, and we're about to go into the last fight (I think) of the part, with a lot less than that. We will have... 2 rangers, a warlord, an NPC cleric, and a Chaladin.
He hasn't and won't change the encounters, since he wrote them up a long time ago.
And he has recently begun rolling for disruptions during an extended rest, and we usually do end up fighting something since he rolls for every hour. Usually, he ends up story-rolling us into multiple encounters that we cannot really avoid without severely hurting ourselves in the long-run, like loss of a lot of XP.
I'm trying to argue my point and am having a hard time convincing him.
Well.... The current campaign we're running is split into 5 parts, I believe, and we're on part 2. All the encounters are geared towards a party of 8 people, since we had that many originally. We lost a lot of players, and we're about to go into the last fight (I think) of the part, with a lot less than that. We will have... 2 rangers, a warlord, an NPC cleric, and a Chaladin.
He hasn't and won't change the encounters, since he wrote them up a long time ago.
And he has recently begun rolling for disruptions during an extended rest, and we usually do end up fighting something since he rolls for every hour. Usually, he ends up story-rolling us into multiple encounters that we cannot really avoid without severely hurting ourselves in the long-run, like loss of a lot of XP.
I'm trying to argue my point and am having a hard time convincing him.
I can't believe I'm saying this, but if he's not toning down encounters from an 8-man party to a 5-man party, a TPK may be the best thing to happen to this campaign.
Well, we had more last battle, we had a halfling fighter and a Tiefling rogue, but they won't be attending next session. Our party tends to fluctuate.
Oh, I thought you'd meant that players were leaving permanently for whatever reason, rather than game-to-game fluctuations. My bad.
Still, it's not hard at *all* to modify encounters in 4e.
Our fighter is disappearing for the next 2 sessions as well. : /
Do you guys not play the missing people's characters for them? This is what my group does so encounters won't have to be changed, if someone left for good we just sort of throw their character out but otherwise we have someone play two characters to make it easy on the DM and easyish on the party.
Just a suggestion if he's unwilling to water down the encounters.
Well.... The current campaign we're running is split into 5 parts, I believe, and we're on part 2. All the encounters are geared towards a party of 8 people, since we had that many originally. We lost a lot of players, and we're about to go into the last fight (I think) of the part, with a lot less than that. We will have... 2 rangers, a warlord, an NPC cleric, and a Chaladin.
He hasn't and won't change the encounters, since he wrote them up a long time ago.
And he has recently begun rolling for disruptions during an extended rest, and we usually do end up fighting something since he rolls for every hour. Usually, he ends up story-rolling us into multiple encounters that we cannot really avoid without severely hurting ourselves in the long-run, like loss of a lot of XP.
I'm trying to argue my point and am having a hard time convincing him.
These seem like dfferent issues.
If the party scrapes by and wins, then he's put in a good level of challenge (or you've been lucky). That might be by accident, it may even be despite some uncommon interpretation of the rules. He may even of under-statted the encounters for 8, and be finding its working ok with the group as is.
So it may end up being ok.
Either way, I wouldn't spend too much time arguing or discussing these rulings with the DM. Once you've made your point clearly once, you've got to let him or her get on with their job.
Some signs that it is going wrong are:
- TPK in a supposedly easy encounter. Oops, too late, but it's only a game! Chalk it up to experience and roll up new characters
- DM starts to tweak results on behalf of the players to keep everyone alive against the tougher challenge level.
Second one is worth discussing again with your DM if you think it is actually happening. There's little point having pre-written "balanced" encounters and rules interpretation to prevent "rules abuse" if this has to be bolstered with DM fiat as well. The DM may be wasting their own time balancing and counter-balancing when they could just use the RAW and chill a little.
We used to have a same-XP rule, but the DM changed it and now if you aren't present you fall behind in XP and now our Fighter isn't gonna hit Paragon with the rest of the party, unless he's generous.
Which sucks, since he gave free XP to everyone, but our halfling was so far behind he didn't level.
EDIT: Right, sorry, off topic.
But really, I think that the ability to take multiple short rests would really help us since we have so few healers anyway, compared to the damage we take.
How do I convince him that multiple short rests are not abusing or exploiting the system?
If you'll excuse the double post, I'm going to attempt to get my topic back on track.
How do I convince him that multiple short rests are not abusing or exploiting the system?
Unfortunately, the first thing that has to happen for someone's mind to be changed is that they have to listen. That doesn't seem likely to happen.
If you'll excuse the double post, I'm going to attempt to get my topic back on track.
How do I convince him that multiple short rests are not abusing or exploiting the system?
How? I don't know, really, but you are right about how the X Word powers work. It's already been confirmed by the writers that doing such is a "feature" not a "bug" and is there to make Leaders that much more desirable to play.
The things your DM is referencing are Song of Rest, Restful Healing, Quick Recovery, and I think Lyric of Rejuvenation.
The "long short rest" tactic doesn't actually obsolete these, and actually works in tandem with some of them.
Restful Healing gives you max healing from surges used through a healing power, and the feat specifically mentions the use of Healing Word between encounters. Long short rests don't make this feat useless simply for the fact that it increases the efficiency of surges spent during a long short rest.
Also Song of Rest stacks with these other uses of surges, so a Bard can buff a level 2 Cleric (who has Restful Healing and Pacifist Healer for their feats) to heal for Surge + Wis (Cleric) + Cha (Bard) + Cha (Cleric) + 12 (max of 2d6).
If anything these feats make Long Short Rests obsolete, not the other way around, since the point of a Long Short Rest is to bring the party to full with maximum efficiency, not to waste time. With stacked bonuses like that (at level 2 you're looking at probably surge+23 from that combo, on party members who probably only have 30 HP, meaning one Healing Word is a full heal for an almost-dead character) you probably only need 2 Healing Words for the two worst-off party members, and the others get the Bard's 2 surge+8 Majestic Words (half HP for non-defenders at level 2).
Ultimately your DM is missing the point that Leader between-encounter healing is supposed to be insanely good. The Artificer even gives the party two free surges every day! There's a reason why they published a feat (Restful Healing) that takes something good and turns it into "doing a wheelie down the back of a commercial airliner at cruising altitude" awesome. Okay, that's hyperbole, but the point is that feats like Restful Healing wouldn't exist if they didn't expect you to be using X Word during a Long Short Rest.
Do you happen to know where I can find a reference on where the writers actually said that? I think that would be enough to convince him, plus your awesome numbers.
Wow, thanks! This is some really good info!
Do you happen to know where I can find a reference on where the writers actually said that? I think that would be enough to convince him, plus your awesome numbers.
It was on the forums a year ago. I only remember it because it was in a general discussion thread I was participating in where the question came up about Healing Word being used between encounters.
I'll try and find it, but the search is a mess to say the least.
Do you remember what writer it was? I'll look to!
When I have DMed I find the players overusing their surges and daily powers then wanting to take extra extended rests to be more of a problem. Anything that would make the use of those resources more efficient and keep things rolling would be cool in my game.
None of your arguements convince me. Sorry. The tactic feels like an exploitation of the rules system and just doesnt make sense from a realistic stand point either. The way I look at it is five minutes , if you ris a short restested 10minutes, thats still 1 short rest. Unless you expend energy in some way (battle, skill challenge) in between the rests, then it is simple one short rest.
He'll likely just accuse you of gaming the system more, but you could try creating your own 'encounters' between major battles and such. For example after you win a major battle, take a 5 minute rest, then tell your DM that you're engaging in a PC vs. PC in-character practice fight. Have everyone use Total Defense, roll a few dice and then ask the cleric to heal everyone again. With a bit of luck, everyone will get more hp from using their surges than they lose to accidental hits. It's a bit cheap, but maybe it'll demonstrate to your DM how enforcing his [unintentional] house rule motivates players to do silly things.
If you'll excuse the double post, I'm going to attempt to get my topic back on track.
How do I convince him that multiple short rests are not abusing or exploiting the system?
I'm a DM, and I have taken a position kind of between yours and your DM. Perhaps you can share my perspective and opinion with him, and let him know that this idea has worked in my campaign.
First, I always let our cleric (and any other leaders, if we had them) to use all of their encounter healing in each combat encounter, even if the fight is actually over. Thus, if our cleric had, for some reason, not needed to use a Healing Word, he could still do so at the end of the encounter and still have it considered as part of the encounter. For the cleric, we treat this, roleplaying wise, as part of his "battle prayers".
Then, during a short rest, if he so chooses, he can use all of his encounter healing powers again. These are treated, roleplaying wise, as being slightly slower, more measured prayers.
However, if the cleric does so, he will need an additional period of rest and reflection (another short rest) to be able to use his encounter healing prayers again in a combat encounter. Sometimes the party is pressed for time, and we do not feel that we can take two consecutive short rests. Sometimes the party gets interrupted after one short rest, and cannot immediately take another one. This means that the cleric does not ALWAYS choose to use his encounter healing powers during his short rest, as it is more important to him to have them available for the next actual combat.
So far, all of this is basically RAW. Here's the one part that I change slightly, and where you might be able to mollify your DM, who feels that healing powers between encounters are too generous.
I only wanted to allow ONE cycle of "healing during a short rest/taking another short rest to recover those powers" to occur. The cleric cannot use his Healing Words after the encounter, rest another five minutes, then use them again, then rest another five minutes, etc.". I did not want to do this to really restrict the availability of healing, but because I wanted to reduce the book-keeping/time-keeping aspect of short rests and maximized healing.
I did not want the party doing the rolling and the math of "Let's see, that Healing Word restored me to [x] HP. Let's wait another five minutes. OK, now that one restored me to [y] HP. OK, I'm not down enough HP to need the boost from another Healing Word, so I'll just use a surge. Oh, you will need the boost from Healing Word? OK, let's go ahead and wait another five minutes, and I'll take one too. I was going to have to use a surge anyway, so that way I'll be at max and not 3 away from max."
Also, to my mind as a DM, each character can 'rest up' as much as they are able during a single short rest. That means that you can spend as many healing surges as you want during that five minutes. If the character wanted to be in full fighting trim, then they would use their stamina and endurance right away. The character wouldn't decide to only rest up partially right away, so that in a few minutes, they could rest up more.
"I want to rest and recover, but not really fully rest. Resting too much wears away my stamina. Let's just rest a little bit, and then, after we are done resting, why don't you pray to your god, and then we'll rest a little more. Resting all at once is bad for your health."
As you can see, like your DM, I don't really like the mechanics of "rinse and repeat" short rests. However, I did really worry that I was taking away part of the ability of the party to recover HP.
What I decided to do was focus my attention on the setting in the game. If the party had decided to rest up in a secure location, where they COULD have reasonably taken an extended rest, then what harm was there in letting them get good healing by taking multiple short rests? They spend 25 minutes resting, rather than 6 hours, but they also didn't get their daily powers back. I basically decided, through random encounters and patrols and the like, to encourage the party to plan for their rests and recovery, and to pay attention to their surroundings.
If the party was dumb and tried to take too many rests in an exposed location, or tried to rest immediately after and near a major battle which would have made a lot of noise, then they weren't going to be ABLE to get multiple short rests. Heck, on occasion, they couldn't even get ONE short rest (there were other monsters in the NEXT room). On the other hand, if the party made sensible use of stealth, or camoflage, or misdirection, or any other good, smart ideas, then they could probably count on being able to get more than one short rest at a time.
That way, if the actual game setting was set up to give them a sense of pressure, then their multiple rest tactic would not work. If, on the other hand, the game was set up where they could reasonably take an hour or two (or six) to rest, why not allow them the rules benefits for doing so? It wasn't a setting where I was trying to put them under time/resource pressure in the first place!
My solution, in effect, was that sometimes the party got what they wanted (and what you wanted): multiple short rests. Sometimes they didn't. However, it wasn't because of changing the rules or anything. It was because I would prepare my adventures specifically for the "feel" of the game I wanted to run that week. Sometimes, I would even be able to "reward" the party for cleverness or persistence. If they pressed on, for example, they might find a secure room where they could take as many rests as they wanted. If they figured out the illusionary wall, they could find a room where they could rest safely, etc.
Please, help would be very appreciated!
It's possible by RAW, so basically you are right.
As a player, I think it the roleplaying value smells a bit of cheese. Imagine the whole party ready to go, but the cleric needs an additional short rest to get his healing words back. At that point, immersion in the game is thrown out by the players to get the highest bang for their buck. Keep in mind that this is my personal opinion. There is no need to fight it, as this is a purely emotional response and I recognise it as such. But if this is where your DM is coming from, you may need to fight his emotional response ;)
As a DM, I'd let the players decide. After all, the game is supposed to be fun.
P.S. Please, do not give any "help" that is the following: "It's the DM's game, he can do what he wants." or, "Quit the game." These are neither helpful or useful, and I am fully aware of them. Thank you!
Keep in mind that he is not obliged by cosmic laws to change his opinions on the mere fact that he is proven to be wrong*. In that case, although you labelled both options as neither helpful or useful, you'll still have to pick one of those. The amount of drama involved may be less if you are prepared ;)
As a player, I think it the roleplaying value smells a bit of cheese. Imagine the whole party ready to go, but the cleric needs an additional short rest to get his healing words back. At that point, immersion in the game is thrown out by the players to get the highest bang for their buck. Keep in mind that this is my personal opinion. There is no need to fight it, as this is a purely emotional response and I recognise it as such. But if this is where your DM is coming from, you may need to fight his emotional response ;)
No problem with your angle.
As a DM wanting to avoid cheese, I just view the rest optimisation as an abstract game item that rewards longer rests with a reduced hit on resources - I don't imagine or encourage the meta-gaming translates into characters thinking about "using powers" or counting hit points.
In character, a rest of 15 minutes is "You rest for 15 minutes". Then I let the players OOC do their book-keeping based on powers, hit points etc. Or not, if I've decided an interruption is more appropriate :D
No problem with your angle.
As a DM wanting to avoid cheese, I just view the rest optimisation as an abstract game item that rewards longer rests with a reduced hit on resources - I don't imagine or encourage the meta-gaming translates into characters thinking about "using powers" or counting hit points.
In character, a rest of 15 minutes is "You rest for 15 minutes". Then I let the players OOC do their book-keeping based on powers, hit points etc. Or not, if I've decided an interruption is more appropriate :D
That is my solution as well. Generally, that time is spent with several people asking the cleric what the bonus on their surge value is. And any decent group of heroes runs off after a mere 5 minutes if the fate of the known world is at stake. ;)
Anyhow, I think it doesn't really matter. A good DM challenges his players. If they end up with an additional 15 hitpoints each, the remainder of the encounters for the day will simply be a bit harder. Any DM determining balance 'by the book' would probably do well to allow his players the additional hitpoints (as per said book).
However, my friend, I don't think you are going to come away from this post with anything more than a sense of satisfaction from being right. I, unfortunately, doubt you will change your DMs mind. He does seem to be a bit stubborn.
Rather, the intent seems to be to allow multiple short rests and to minimize the number of extra short rests between combats. The result of the Restful Healing feat would be that fewer extra short rests would be needed since all of the extra d6's to healing surges would be the full 6 points. By contrast, without the feat, you might only do an extra 1 HP gain (+ any other bonuses obviously).
As a DM, I would certainly allow multiple short rests. However, as others have said, that doesn't necessarily mean that the party's enemies stand by and do nothing during those rests. That minion who managed to run away? Guess what, if you the party rests for 15 minutes, there's a good chance he gets to the rest of his band and they are prepared for the PCs. Resting in a hostile dungeon? There's a decent chance that a monster or 5 wanders by. etc., etc. Essentially, multiple short rests will reduce the number of extended rests needed, which I think, is one of the major goals of 4th Ed.
I mean, seriously, what do those things *add* to the game? Ohnoes, your healer's powers last longer and you get more uses out of your surges! Net effect: You get more Encounters before an extended rest, and can face tougher Encounters. Whee. And *one per hour* rolls during the Extended Rest? It's not like you're trying to Extended Rest after every encounter, and he's *going out of his way* (chaining Encounters, denying healing during Rests) to make you need Extended Rests more often than the rules would normally suggest.
None of his changes are improving the game. They specifically, in fact, sound like they're making it less fun, at least for you.