A DC 22 web is pretty hardcore, and I'd hate to have to deal with the DC 25 Arc of Lightning.
My question is, should a DM give his NPC wizard (BBEG or not) a +10 mod to spell DCs (when characters are at ~13th level)? If so, how often? Under what circumstances?
I mean, really, SHOULD the DM be able to craft every npc? Not nessacarily min/max, but at least roll their stats? I once put a level 2 party up against a group of goblins who I actually rolled stats, picked their feats and skills, and gave one or two of them a PC class level. Needless to say, they slapped them around pretty good, but the PCs still won in the end, it was just a lot more challanging, which I think everyone enjoyed in the end. One of my Players would chime in with "Level 2 here DM...Level 2." with a laugh, so maybe I might have been a bit to hard on them I suppose. But I mean really, it's not like the PCs are the only super characters in the campaign, apart from a BBEG, or minion or two. Would it take a bit longer to prep games? Maybe, but at least the players would have a memberable session me thinks.
COOOOBBBBBRRRRAAAAAAA
Often NPCs aren't considered worth their CR at higher levels which means they probably need more optimization to make them work better as challenges. I generally oppose extremely narrow builds ("Lets see how high I can make that DC.") but certainly the NPCs should be as worried about having decent performance as the PCs.
At 13th level a DC 22 or DC 25 is not entirely inappropriate but they may be a little high. At that level you get 7th level spells (base DC 17) with the sample NPC wizard adding a +5 stat modifier for a modified INT 20 for DC 22 on the highest level spells. A feat/ability or two could get you a couple more points for that DC 25 but these are the highest level spells while for a 2nd level WEB spell DC 20 if pushing it a little. At this level those DCs may be a little higher than they should be but not too much.
At 13th level the PCs should save about half the time with their "good" saves against the worst DCs thrown at them. At 13th level the good save should be +8 but then you can also add ability modifiers and various magical protections which could easily boost that to a +13 modifier and that +13 should let you save against the normal DC 23 spell more than half the time. A poor saving throw may not fair so well at only a +4 base but all the other modifiers could be the same meaning its chances are only some 20% less.
In answer to the question those DCs may be a little too high for standard 13th level PCs but if the PCs are better than normal, stats or equipment, then they look about right. The DCs are probably the highest one should expect and most should be lower than that.
How often? As often as he feels he needs to. Under what circumstances? Any circumstances.
Just so long as everyone is having fun. And everyone WILL have fun.
if ur a wiz with decent dex(14) you get a total of +6 to ref w/o anything magically helping you...
just be glad it wasn't a save v. death..
also:
"A saving throw against your spell has a DC of 10 + the level of the spell + your bonus for the relevant ability (Intelligence for a wizard, Charisma for a sorcerer or bard, or Wisdom for a cleric, druid, paladin, or ranger). A spell’s level can vary depending on your class. Always use the spell level applicable to your class."
from the SRD, so you guys are lvl 13, say the enemy was lvl 10, with a decent int(say 16 for a +3) with web being lvl 2 spell thats a total of DC15... getting +6 to it aint that hard.
also, the STR DC from web is 20 so don't complain...
but yes, I agree with DMs min/maxing. If the PCs are twinked to kill anything and everything, then you have to expect that you will meet at LEAST A FEW NPCs that aren't complete idiots(like a wizard with power attack)...
and finally, most wizards are genius'. 18 int is genius. Therefore they might have the capability to out think normal people...
The 13th Level characters are powerful but not exactly min/maxed themselves. For example, our spell DCs can't match +10.
also, the STR DC from web is 20 so don't complain...
umm, I wasn't complaining. I'm asking if this is normal. I'm worried about the 10+9/10+5/6 for a 5th/6th level save or die effect, not the effect of a high DC web.
and think of it this way, if the worst thing that he did was cast web at you, then count yourself lucky...
I used to create a pwn-er-ific NPC to put the fear of god into my PCs w/o actually killing them... A group of powerful PCs that walk over everything start to get a bit arrogant, throw something like this at them, and they start to worry that they are not all killing and all powerful.
as I said, just be glad it wasn't a save v. death
Once more, where is this +10 coming from? DC for an avg lvl 13 caster(unspecc'd) would be 15 fully specced 22 wouldn't be that difficult.
The DM claimed a 26 INT plus a spell focus, plus a last thing he would not say.
as I said, just be glad it wasn't a save v. death
as I said before, that's what I'm worried about.
An INT 26 for most 13th level casters is a little high. The DMG NPC's may be far from optimized but they don't have wizards getting a modified score that high until 20th level. At 13th level they give the Wizard a modified INT of 20 and most races that will increase that more than +4 will probably have some CR adjustments to go with them as well.
Well, that may have been the problem. Perhaps the NPC was closer to 20th level, and the DM was trying to spook me.
And the DC 22 Web from a hidden mage did spook us, we plane shifted out.
The main question a DM should ask himself when making an NPC is, am I optimizing this character, or am I optimizing it to kill a PC? The former is fine, the latter, however, is simply not playing fair.
-Count Dravda
umm.... 22dc at lvl 13 isn't that bad...
if ur a wiz with decent dex(14) you get a total of +6 to ref w/o anything magically helping you...
That's beside the point.
from the SRD, so you guys are lvl 13, say the enemy was lvl 10, with a decent int(say 16 for a +3) with web being lvl 2 spell thats a total of DC15... getting +6 to it aint that hard.
It's very hard, in fact. You'll need to focus considerable resources during NPC creation to achieve it. Don't forget that it's an NPC. If you use elite array and NPC wealth, you don't have many options. SF + GSF is +2, a starting INT of 15 plus three level increases nets another +4, Web is +2, so you are only at DC 18 (19 if you pick the appropriate elven species) before equipment. Getting the last +4 (+3) via equipment is hard.
And 15 + 6 is only 21, not 22.
and finally, most wizards are genius'. 18 int is genius. Therefore they might have the capability to out think normal people...
Also not relevant to the issue being discussed.
Major antagonist NPCs should be specced as PCs, including gear. For a 13th level PC, 26 in their primary ability is not unreasonable; by that time they've had three level increases and could have a +6 enhancement item, which with a starting 18 gives 27.
The OP is also presuming that the spell was in fact 2nd level. This may not be true; the caster may have Heightened it.
Also - who said the NPC was 13th level? Not the DM, as far as I can tell.
very hard, in fact. You'll need to focus considerable resources during NPC creation to achieve it. Don't forget that it's an NPC. If you use elite array and NPC wealth, you don't have many options. SF + GSF is +2, a starting INT of 15 plus three level increases nets another +4, Web is +2, so you are only at DC 18 (19 if you pick the appropriate elven species) before equipment. Getting the last +4 (+3) via equipment is hard. And 15 + 6 is only 21, not 22.
Yes, there is equipment, but there are other ways.
- The wiz could use an INT-boosting potion or spell for +4 INT/+2 DC.
- The wiz could cast his web spell using metamagic powers to raise the level, and hence the DC.
I suspect there are other tricky ways to raise the spell DC... aside from just "deciding" that this wiz has a 24 INT (or whatever).
Cheers, --- Wheldrake
The OP is also presuming that the spell was in fact 2nd level. This may not be true; the caster may have Heightened it.
This was the first thought I had. It's probably the "easiest" (and least "min/max") way to increase a spell's DC.
10th level wizard (or sorcerer) casting web as a 5th level spell, with an 18 Int and Spell Focus + Greater Spell Focus gives a DC of 21. Make the caster an elven subrace with a +2 Int mod, and you get your 22 really easy.
*
As for the question itself: A DM should, generally speaking, optimize about at the same level as the PCs. Some NPCs should be slightly less optimized than the PCs; and some - especially important BBEGs - probably should be optimized a bit better than the PCs.
Which is why I am spec'ing out a couple of challenges myself...I hate swiftblades...
As for the question itself: A DM should, generally speaking, optimize about at the same level as the PCs. Some NPCs should be slightly less optimized than the PCs; and some - especially important BBEGs - probably should be optimized a bit better than the PCs.
What Zherog says! Unfortunately, unless you're a fulltime DM, it's not possible to optimize your NPC's as well as the PC's (assuming your players are well versed and reasonably optimized - no need for broken to outdo a DM that's churning out NPC's with little time to spare)
A DC 22 isn't high at 13th level in an absolute sense. The fact that it happens to be a low-level spell isn't really important.
A beguiler with shadow conjuration could use his surprise casting, for instance, to raise the DC if you're looking for technicalities.
DC 22 at level 13 is average at best. Considering that 30+ at level 20 is more likely... Being 8 points lower at 7 levels lower indicates it's actually low.
Hell, Heighten alone could do it and more.
In essence, this was a 2nd/3rd level spell with a DC 22. DC 22 itself, you're right, is not overtly threatening at 13th. Its the DC 25/26 5th/6th level spells that were to come afterwards that caused fright. Which is (part of) the reason why my PCs plane shifted out.
I appreciate the responses. I DM myself, and I try not to min/max against PCs who do not min/max their characters.
In the D&D world, rulership is all about power. If someone is the ruler of the bugbears, then they should be stronger than all the other bugbears in single combat. If someone is leading kobolds, they should be able to take all the kobolds all at once. If it's a human nation, the ruler better be on the front lines and not make a fool of himself in front of his men.
So basically, think how important this NPC is. The more important he is, the more min-maxed he should be. That is my rule of thumb.
Also: Just because it doesn't say so, doesn't mean he should abandon them all together.
Min-Maxing is perfectly within his power.
Alright, so I was playing the other day and my DM threw a DC 22 Reflex save at me. After my two 13th level characters failed, we discovered we were trapped . . . in a web.
A DC 22 web is pretty hardcore, and I'd hate to have to deal with the DC 25 Arc of Lightning.
My question is, should a DM give his NPC wizard (BBEG or not) a +10 mod to spell DCs (when characters are at ~13th level)? If so, how often? Under what circumstances?
Well, that may happen quite a lot, indeed. DC 22 isn't that difficult at 13th level and web isn't that deadly as a spell (basically it just hampers your movement and it's easy to shake off by burning it away). The average 13th lvl Rogue can beat it pretty easily (base Ref save +8 and at 13th level he can buff his Dex at least at a +5 or even +6 modifier without that much effort: with a total +14 to Reflex you need just an 8 to avoid the web's effects).
For the DC 25 lightning (actually it would be 23, casted by the same caster, because web is lvl 2, lightning bolt is lvl 3): it may occur quite often at 13th lvl. The rogue and the monk are more than capable to avoid the damage completely, the casters will probably have the greatest trouble, but they should be able to activate some pretty tough energy protection. Fighters and barbarians can take more than 10d6 damage before needing to worry and it's likely that they have still a fellow cleric with a healing spell ready for them.
So I wouldn't worry too much about DC 22 at 13th lvl.
I'd worry much more if, at that level, my DM made me face a CR 20 red dracolich, which bones splitered every time you hit it for 10d6 damage. Oh.. wait... he did it. And I worried.
the DM uses some restraint
and the DM optimizes for the sake of optimising(yes I know I can't spell) and not simply to be able to kill the PCs.
Do you know the race of the caster?
No. We never saw the caster. We were in a building when the web hit us. Just as we were escaping the web, a cloudkill came rolling in, so we didn't stop to inquire.
For the DC 25 lightning (actually it would be 23, casted by the same caster, because web is lvl 2, lightning bolt is lvl 3): it may occur quite often at 13th lvl.
No, I had it right, Arc of Lightning. I wanted to pick a spell of 5th level of the same school, and Arc of Lightning is conjuration.
Remember: Nowhere in the rules does it say the DM has to play by them.
Go back and read the original question. The operative verb is should, not can.
Alright, thanks for the replies. I've gotten a better sense of the consensus on min/maxing of NPCs, the whens, and how much.
Let's say we have a pretty good caster (INT 17) as base. He gets three attribute points for being level 13 and puts them all into INT.
He then proceeds to cast Fox's Cunning on himself before battle (alternatively a headband of intellect might work) raising his INT by another 4 points.
In his feat selection he is also careful and takes a spell focus as well as a greater spell focus and on first level spellcasting prodigy (If I remember correctly it did raise the DCs, too), so:
10+2(web)+5(Int)+2(Fox's Cunning)+1(SpellFocus)+1(Gr. SF)+1(Spellcast. Prod.) = 22
And that is not even including further specialization, prestige classes, metamagic and the likes...
And before you complain about the Fox's Cunning... the situation was an ambush, was it not? There should be ample time to get one single buff up before battle...
No. We never saw the caster. We were in a building when the web hit us. Just as we were escaping the web, a cloudkill came rolling in, so we didn't stop to inquire.
Well, the reason I ask is because it opens up races such as drow (just as an example) that gain a +2 or better to their Int. That makes getting the DC up to that point even easier for the DM.
Well 10+ Heighten Spell would let him memorize Web as a 5th level spell, Spell Focus: Conjuration +1, int 18 +4, Foxes Cunning +2 Int bonus, total of DC 22.
The Sample in DM's guide for a 10th level wizard is int 19 (+4 bonus) the 2 feats above would be perfectly reasonable for a Wizard to have taken. The DM is not at all min/maxing this Wizard by the sounds of it, but just playing the wizard intellegently.
if he was min/maxing the Wizard would have an int of 22 (+6) An item with a +6 Int (+3) Spell Focus (+1) Greater Spell Focus (+1), Heighten Spell (memmed as 5th level) +5 for a total DC of 26.
So yes I think he was just playing smart according to the character and not min/maxing
so:
10+2(web)+5(Int)+2(Fox's Cunning)+1(SpellFocus)+1(Gr. SF)+1(Spellcast. Prod.) = 22
Ew, no, we don't run Spellcasting prodigy the broken way. It's been scaled back so it only provides bonus spells. It cannot up the DC (else why wouldn't every caster get it?)
Ew, no, we don't run Spellcasting prodigy the broken way. It's been scaled back so it only provides bonus spells. It cannot up the DC (else why wouldn't every caster get it?)
Lack of available feats? Some caster setups can be pretty feat-intensive, and don't need high DCs enough to pick up SP at expense of something else more important.
Lack of available feats? Some caster setups can be pretty feat-intensive, and don't need high DCs enough to pick up SP at expense of something else more important.
In theory. In practice every spell-casting character in our games grabbed it.
We decided the feat is still awesome to pump bonus spells/max level cast. And in practice, the feat is still taken.
Edit: Oh, I see. You're leaping in because I said the magic word.
My PCs got involved in a major combat in the middle of the city and, being 13th level, easily defeated both the guards and the captain of the guards that came to help. One of their number had just failed an assassination attempt on said captain of the guards, and the rest teleported in to help out.
This was at the end of a long game and well beyond the point at which things had been prepared, but not wishing to end the game when my players were having fun, and furthermore not being afraid of city play in the slightest, I carried forward. The players stated their intention to remain in the city and mess things up for awhile, so I reached into my bag of tricks and pulled out an old PC idea of mine that never saw play.
The Focused Conjurer they encountered was a Sun Elf, 6th Wizard / 3rd Master Specialist, with maximum starting Intelligence, Greater Spell Focus, and a Headband+4. The only rule bent in his creation was the percentage of his starting wealth spent on the Headband.
I did NOT pull DC 22 out of a hat, the character was fully defined and ready for battle. A fully charged and optimized 9th level conjurer like that, more or less alone at the time, could be expected to slow down and hamper a 12th level party somewhat, especially since they didn't know where he was, but a TPK was out of the question.
The battle was not even meant to be tough, but it wasn't supposed to be easy. I do not like the idea of supposedly super-Intelligent wizards throwing their lives away with stupid tactics. Here we had a lawful good guardian of the city willing to lay down his life, but not waste it. With the clever use of TWO of his spells he managed to drive off an entire party of 12th level characters intending to pillage his hometown.
Now, to Contact Other Plane.... but that's another story.
No, I had it right, Arc of Lightning. I wanted to pick a spell of 5th level of the same school, and Arc of Lightning is conjuration.
K, my bad (still, DC 25 is an average threat for the average rogue 13th).
Stll, DC 22 doesn't seem that dangerous, even if used to enhance another threat (like the cloudkill you mentioned - which is an average threat for the average fighter: at 13th lvl it causes 1d4 Con damage, Fort halves; DC 22 web and DC 25 cloudkill means that: the rogue and other high Ref characters can avoid it with ease [8 on d20 average] and then move away before the cloudkill comes; fighters and other high Fort characters may fail the Ref save and be blocked, but they get to save against the cloudkill with some ease [10 on d20 average], plus they can easily get rid of the web [torch, flaming weapons, alchemist's fire]; spellcaster may be slightly disadvantaged, because they don't have any good ST of those involved, but they can easily cast spells to avoid the threat: gust of wind, phase door, teleport, burining hands [on the web], and a wall of force could stop the cloudkill, dispel magic would remove the web and so on).
I'd call it kinda fiendish, but, still, once in a while the DM must be fiendish: being heroic PCs involve not having always an easy life and death is one of the risks of the job of going nosing around in every cave/tomb/fortress and messing with dragons and wizards.
Cheer up, the DM wasn't unfair: he gave you a good thrill.
Let's take a 13th lvl wizard.
Your web DC 22 can be achieved via: +6 Int22, +1 spell focus (conjuration), +1 improved spell focus (conjuration), +2 spell level. Result: 10 (base)+6+1+1+2=22.
Int22 at 13th lvl isn't that big deal: three ability increases and a headband of intellect +4 give you a +7. Even starting at Int15 that is achievable.
Maxing out the character would have been: Wiz13, grey elf (+2 Int), starting Int18, +3 ability increases to Int, headband of intellect +6, +5 tome of clear thought, +1 spell focus (conjuration), +1 improved spell focus (conjuration), web enhanced to 7th lvl (+5 DC).
That would make: total Int34 (+12), +2 from feats, +2 from spell level, +5 from enhance spell. total DC: 10+12+2+2+5=31.
This sticking to core books only (PHB, DMG, MM).
Usually you can detect when the DM is overmaxing in an easy way: check what number the best suited character would have to obtain on 1d20 to avoid the threat (that is: a bard/monk/ranger/rogue for a Ref save, a barbarian/cleric/druid/monk/paladin/ranger for a Fort save and a bard/cleric/druid/monk/sorcerer/wizard for a Will save): if it is below 10, it's an easy challenge for that character and probably a normal challenge for the rest of the party. If it's around 10, it's a normal challenge for everyone. If it's between 13 and 15, it's starting to be challenging for the character and probably fiendish for everyone else (this should happen, but just once in a while, otherwise characters are going to die like hell). Over 15 it's something that should happen just once over an entire adventure: it should be a moment of great peril (or otherwise it may be used when the DM needs something to happen: usually this does not involve threat of death for the PCs). If the best suited character needs a base roll of 17-20, then the DM is maxing out unfarily (if he does this often) or he needs something to happen for sure and it shouldn't be a threat for the players (maybe they are sucked into another dimension, from where they will have to escape).
Anyway, that's not the case for DC22 at 13th level (which was rather fiendish just because it enhanced a deadly threat, otherwise it would have been a negligible threat).
Adult Green Dragon, CR 13 Breath Weapon: 12d6 (25), Frightful Presence: (23)
Young Adult Red Dragon, CR 13 Breath Weapon: 10d10 (24), Frightful Presence 21
It seems to me, 22 is okay if not a little low...
Maxing out the character would have been: Wiz13, grey elf (+2 Int), starting Int18, +3 ability increases to Int, headband of intellect +6, +5 tome of clear thought, +1 spell focus (conjuration), +1 improved spell focus (conjuration), web enhanced to 7th lvl (+5 DC).
That would make: total Int34 (+12), +2 from feats, +2 from spell level, +5 from enhance spell. total DC: 10+12+2+2+5=31.
This sticking to core books only (PHB, DMG, MM).
Sure, but giving what was essentially a randomly encountered NPC access to a +5 Tome of Clear Thought, not to mention heightening Web to 7th level (something I've never seen a player do) is sort of ridiculous. Even handing him a +6 Headband stretches things somewhat. Groans, sir, are the result when PCs start finding those +6 items all over the place, and it only results in inflation coupled with annoyance.
The encounter took place in the middle floor of three level rowhouse, after the PCs crashed through the building and engaged targets coming upstairs while on the second floor. Receiving reports that the mooks were being slaughtered and the captain of the guard was down, the wizard placed a Black Tentacles on the ground floor and Webbed the second floor, topping with the Cloudkill positioned to sink down from the attic.
He then waited outside the building with Sculpted Glitterdusts, Stinking Clouds, Bands of Steel, Sculpted Greases, etc, and four Musteval Guardinals from Call Faithful Servants to pelt disabled opponents with magic missiles. Plus a few archers, sending arrow fire into the house.
Now, I knew that the PCs were a little low on spells, having just hunted down a Frost Worm and killed it, but I knew they still had their best spells available in reserve. His choice was simply whether to use those spells to defeat this wizard, fighting on his home turf with reinforcements every round and respectable save DCs, or retreat.
The whole episode has taught me that Conjuration wizards are possibly the best suited to taking on whole parties. Their area-effect spells to impede mobility can keep whole groups on the back foot, using their actions to get free or get their partners out of trouble and preventing coordinated offensive action. At the same time, their spells do not rely on the precise application of overwhelming force, like some kind of Arcane Thesis: Scorching Ray or Enervation foolishness. While a necromancer has problems with clerics and illusionists fear divinations, the conjurer has an easier life. Even against high save characters, summoned creatures can hold them back a bit.
The result is a more exciting and tactically difficult battle with less risk of accidental TPK.
Cheer up, the DM wasn't unfair: he gave you a good thrill.
I never stated that I thought the DM was being unfair.
Part of what I was trying to figure out is: should I be worried. That's a whole different issue than fairness, although you're not the first on this thread to assume that I was 'complaining' about 'fairness.'
The other thing I was trying to figure out is: should I as a DM be emulating my DM?
Edit: As I have stated ad nauseum on this thread, the scruples were not with the DC 22. The issue was the +10 spell modifier, absent level. A DC 22 Web means a DC 25 Arc of Lightning.
Edit: As I have stated ad nauseum on this thread, the scruples were not with the DC 22. The issue was the +10 spell modifier, absent level. A DC 22 Web means a DC 25 Arc of Lightning.
Which is still at a level appropriate to the Dragon examples I gave... ;)
Which is still at a level appropriate to the Dragon examples I gave... ;)
Dragons are notorious for having a lower CR than they should have if played correctly. Dragons aren't a good model for comparison.
Over-maxing out NPCs is something differnt:
Let's take a 13th lvl wizard.
Your web DC 22 can be achieved via: +6 Int22, +1 spell focus (conjuration), +1 improved spell focus (conjuration), +2 spell level. Result: 10 (base)+6+1+1+2=22.
Int22 at 13th lvl isn't that big deal: three ability increases and a headband of intellect +4 give you a +7. Even starting at Int15 that is achievable.
You sir fail at math.
6+1+1+2=10. 10+10= what? 20.
How did you get 22?
Maxing out the character would have been: Wiz13, grey elf (+2 Int), starting Int18, +3 ability increases to Int, headband of intellect +6, +5 tome of clear thought, +1 spell focus (conjuration), +1 improved spell focus (conjuration), web enhanced to 7th lvl (+5 DC).
That would make: total Int34 (+12), +2 from feats, +2 from spell level, +5 from enhance spell. total DC: 10+12+2+2+5=31.
This sticking to core books only (PHB, DMG, MM).
Please don't say that is "sticking to core books" when it drives a horse and cart through one of the major recommendations of the core books.
How does a 13th level character get access to a single item that is worth more than the wealth-by-level guidelines for a character of that level? In addition to regular gear. The total of the two items you mention are greater than the wbl guidelines for a 14th level character.
That is not "maxing out" the wizard. It's well beyond that.
I never stated that I thought the DM was being unfair.
Part of what I was trying to figure out is: should I be worried. That's a whole different issue than fairness, although you're not the first on this thread to assume that I was 'complaining' about 'fairness.'
The other thing I was trying to figure out is: should I as a DM be emulating my DM?
Edit: As I have stated ad nauseum on this thread, the scruples were not with the DC 22. The issue was the +10 spell modifier, absent level. A DC 22 Web means a DC 25 Arc of Lightning.
don't worry, then. It's fine. Yes, you should try to emulate him, because those are fair DCs for the level (and their source doesn't matter).
Sure, but giving what was essentially a randomly encountered NPC access to a +5 Tome of Clear Thought, not to mention heightening Web to 7th level (something I've never seen a player do) is sort of ridiculous. Even handing him a +6 Headband stretches things somewhat. Groans, sir, are the result when PCs start finding those +6 items all over the place, and it only results in inflation coupled with annoyance.
The encounter took place in the middle floor of three level rowhouse, after the PCs crashed through the building and engaged targets coming upstairs while on the second floor. Receiving reports that the mooks were being slaughtered and the captain of the guard was down, the wizard placed a Black Tentacles on the ground floor and Webbed the second floor, topping with the Cloudkill positioned to sink down from the attic.
He then waited outside the building with Sculpted Glitterdusts, Stinking Clouds, Bands of Steel, Sculpted Greases, etc, and four Musteval Guardinals from Call Faithful Servants to pelt disabled opponents with magic missiles. Plus a few archers, sending arrow fire into the house.
Now, I knew that the PCs were a little low on spells, having just hunted down a Frost Worm and killed it, but I knew they still had their best spells available in reserve. His choice was simply whether to use those spells to defeat this wizard, fighting on his home turf with reinforcements every round and respectable save DCs, or retreat.
The whole episode has taught me that Conjuration wizards are possibly the best suited to taking on whole parties. Their area-effect spells to impede mobility can keep whole groups on the back foot, using their actions to get free or get their partners out of trouble and preventing coordinated offensive action. At the same time, their spells do not rely on the precise application of overwhelming force, like some kind of Arcane Thesis: Scorching Ray or Enervation foolishness. While a necromancer has problems with clerics and illusionists fear divinations, the conjurer has an easier life. Even against high save characters, summoned creatures can hold them back a bit.
The result is a more exciting and tactically difficult battle with less risk of accidental TPK.
On the whole a well planned encounter.
By the way, my goal in showing the over-maxed NPC wasn't to give out a usable NPC, rather the opposite: I was showing how a DM could crack the game with core only material. I think (and I have done so from the start of this discussion) that DC 22 was the average for the level and, answering to your player, he should have been worried only in case of DC 31 web spell, because the only way to obtain it a 13th level, it's with a cracked NPC.
I have spent time in explaining what numbers the players should worry of and the maxed out NPC I showed was merely supportive of what I was saying: I'd never use such a villain in a game of mine.
Again, I think that was really a good encounter.
Dragons are notorious for having a lower CR than they should have if played correctly. Dragons aren't a good model for comparison.
On the contrary. Dragons, along with Outsiders are about the only things in the MM1 worth their CR. Other exceptions are rare, or requires specific adjustments to be usable. Everything else gets bogged down too much by Alertness and Toughness spam, or in the case of humanoid NPCs cannot have enough gear to be competitive without overloading the PCs upon victory.
MM3 stuff works well as written.
As a DM, my general rule of thumb is whatever materials the PC's have access to, so do the bad guys. If I'm dumb enough to allow a frenzied berserker PC, the option is open for me to create bad guy frenzied berserkers. If I allow all the feats from Supllement X in the game for players to use, expect the bad guys to take advantage of that fact too.
What I've learned in my experience is if the "challenge" in the game has decreased as more and more supplements have come out opening up ways for PCs to become more and more powerful or specialized. If I don't keep up with the power creep, thet CR 2 ogre doens't "challenge" the PCs like a CR 2 monster. So some min-maxing is required.
And the best part of being a DM...If I do too good of a job min/maxing the bad guys, I can always raise the CR of the bad guy by +1 or +2 under the whole the general "bad guy has some ability that makes it substantially more difficult."
Ogres are CR 3.
I award you the Nit-Picker of the Day award. Carry it with pride!
I award you the Nit-Picker of the Day award. Carry it with pride!
Woot! Does it come with free cookies?
Only on days of the week that don't begin with the letter 'F'. Sorry.
Venerdì does not begin with an F. Hand it over. :D
Whereas I will take, with a straight face, Barbarian (City Brawler), Whirling Rage variant (1 level), Chaos Monk (2 levels), Fighter 2 (Snow Tiger Berserker & Power Lunge) on a Half Ogre with Sandals of the Tiger's Leap. I'd use something like that for a PC, if someone would let me. But for an NPC? Wouldn't there be something wrong with that?
"The lanky, tall humanoid throws back his cloak to reveal a powerfully muscled form.... screaming loudly, spittle flies from his mouth as he charges, flailing uncontrollably. His arms almost double in size as he shrieks foul curses at you in Giant... OK, activates whirling rage and flailing strike for 2, pounces.... what's your AC? That's 5 attacks at +24 on your 7th level bard.... 3d8+30 damage each.... around 200 damage? He grabs your head and slams it into the ground, cracking your skul as his repeated blows cave in your chest cavity."
"Darn, guess you should take Otherworldly and Alter Self: Minor Xorn form next time." Fortunately I know not to do things like this. Some feats and features should come with a warning not to use them with potentially hostile NPCs.
He forbids the Sudden feats, and has expressed repeated disdain for Divine Metamagic. He simply detests Vow of Poverty, and since he's playing an evil character, I'm tempted to use it against him.
I suppose the one luxury he allows himself is Divine Spell Power + Unholy Word.
He has, however, stated his desire to revenge himself upon this wizard, and requested that he be brought into the game in detailed form so the two can engage. The question is whether he will find Master Specialist to be overpowered or not... Focused Conjurer he has not strongly objected to yet.
The player in this case is rather more strict than I am in terms of optimizing, though. He won't take things he considers too powerful or cheesy; he has forbidden more things from the game than I ever bothered with.
If that's the case for all of the players in your group, I would tone down how much min/maxing I would permit myself as a DM. If he's the only player toning down/restricting access to stuff because he thinks they're "cheesy", tough noogies. Just because the player thinks he's playing "fair" doesn't mean the bad guys will be abiding by such rules.
Whereas I will take, with a straight face, Barbarian (City Brawler), Whirling Rage variant (1 level), Chaos Monk (2 levels), Fighter 2 (Snow Tiger Berserker & Power Lunge) on a Half Ogre with Sandals of the Tiger's Leap. I'd use something like that for a PC, if someone would let me. But for an NPC? Wouldn't there be something wrong with that?
As much as I min/max the bad guys, I do place RP restrictions on what I allow. Snow Tiger Berserker feat for example is a restricted feat to a specific lodge in FR. If I'm not playing in FR, there's no way a barbarian would have that feat.
Then again, with Lion Totem Barbarians around from Complete Champion, who needs a feat anymore for pounce. :P Every melee bad guy/monster in my world with class levels apparently took a 1 level dip into LT Barbarian because the PCs who focuses on melee did as well. Simply put, pounce any bad guy the players face is presumed to have pounce now (not 100% accurate but better to be safe then sorry.).
On the flip side, if the players uniformly agree LT barbarian is "cheesy" or should not be allowed, I won't use such tactics against them. Agreement between Players and DM = better gaming relationship.
If that's the case for all of the players in your group, I would tone down how much min/maxing I would permit myself as a DM. If he's the only player toning down/restricting access to stuff because he thinks they're "cheesy", tough noogies. Just because the player thinks he's playing "fair" doesn't mean the bad guys will be abiding by such rules.
Do you honestly think that the only issue with cheese is fairness? No, the primary problem with cheese is that it lowers the credibility of the game. A broken character shatters the suspension of disbelief.
In the case of Stats, I expected a character with 26 INT to be very high-level, indeed. Otherwise the game suffers statistics inflation. Lormador doesn't give NPCs more point-buy stats than the PCs get, and I couldn't for the life of me figure out how the character could have 26 INT without it being 16th level, so I was pretty spooked.
Agreement between Players and DM = better gaming relationship.
This is true, and players should give the benefit of the doubt to their DM and vice versa.
--------------
As a DM, my primary responsibility is to create a living, viable, fantasy setting. PCs should be the most elite characters in the game, which means that given good tactics and sensible decisions, they should become quite powerful.
Now, Lormador's campaign is both equal parts combat-driven and role-play driven. This circumstance was pretty exceptional in an otherwise evenly balanced world, and it was our first encounter with Good forces (the party is a half-orc party serving orcs, but usually what we've been facing is at least as evil as we are). I was wondering if I needed to adapt my tactics, and if this encounter was a hint that Team Good was more powerful and organized than what we've been used to facing.
The player in this case is rather more strict than I am in terms of optimizing, though. He won't take things he considers too powerful or cheesy; he has forbidden more things from the game than I ever bothered with.
Whereas I will take, with a straight face, Barbarian (City Brawler), Whirling Rage variant (1 level), Chaos Monk (2 levels), Fighter 2 (Snow Tiger Berserker & Power Lunge) on a Half Ogre with Sandals of the Tiger's Leap. I'd use something like that for a PC, if someone would let me. But for an NPC? Wouldn't there be something wrong with that?
However, I personally hold back from optimization for the second reason that I do not have the required books. Its one thing to flip through the book and create your character. Its another to rely on the DM to suggest all the great things that WotC has provided. I've never heard of City Brawler, Whirling Rage or Chaos Monk before. I don't know what a Mastered Specialist is. The only imbalanced PrC I've ever used was Red Wizard of Thay, and that had more to do with playing a Red Wizard than anything else.
Its pretty daunting to face an encounter and hear of all the great stuff that the NPCs you defeated had, and not know what half of the stuff means! Is it balanced / imbalanced? I have no idea what half of it is! I have seen enough broken stuff from WotC that it no longer means anything for me to be told 'its an official published work.' And in cases where I see stuff done that I find inexplicable, I tend to guess what's at play. And when it seems really powerful and mysterious, I will err on the side of retreat. Because, its always easier to leave and return with more resources than it is fight something powerful and unknown.
Do you honestly think that the only issue with cheese is fairness? No, the primary problem with cheese is that it lowers the credibility of the game. A broken character shatters the suspension of disbelief.
In the case of Stats, I expected a character with 26 INT to be very high-level, indeed. Otherwise the game suffers statistics inflation. Lormador doesn't give NPCs more point-buy stats than the PCs get, and I couldn't for the life of me figure out how the character could have 26 INT without it being 16th level, so I was pretty spooked.
This is true, and players should give the benefit of the doubt to their DM and vice versa.
--------------
As a DM, my primary responsibility is to create a living, viable, fantasy setting. PCs should be the most elite characters in the game, which means that given good tactics and sensible decisions, they should become quite powerful.
Now, Lormador's campaign is both equal parts combat-driven and role-play driven. This circumstance was pretty exceptional in an otherwise evenly balanced world, and it was our first encounter with Good forces (the party is a half-orc party serving orcs, but usually what we've been facing is at least as evil as we are). I was wondering if I needed to adapt my tactics, and if this encounter was a hint that Team Good was more powerful and organized than what we've been used to facing.
However, I personally hold back from optimization for the second reason that I do not have the required books. Its one thing to flip through the book and create your character. Its another to rely on the DM to suggest all the great things that WotC has provided. I've never heard of City Brawler, Whirling Rage or Chaos Monk before. I don't know what a Mastered Specialist is. The only imbalanced PrC I've ever used was Red Wizard of Thay, and that had more to do with playing a Red Wizard than anything else.
Its pretty daunting to face an encounter and hear of all the great stuff that the NPCs you defeated had, and not know what half of the stuff means! Is it balanced / imbalanced? I have no idea what half of it is! I have seen enough broken stuff from WotC that it no longer means anything for me to be told 'its an official published work.' And in cases where I see stuff done that I find inexplicable, I tend to guess what's at play. And when it seems really powerful and mysterious, I will err on the side of retreat. Because, its always easier to leave and return with more resources than it is fight something powerful and unknown.
But he didn't "optyimize", it has been made clear that DC 22 is reachable and is the average (slightly below, indeed). So, I beg your pardon, but I'm confused: what's this all about?
I assumed that when you raised a level 2 web spell a few levels with metamagic feats, that this would raise the spell's save DC accordingly. However, according to the RAW:
Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell
In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell. Saving throw modifications are not changed unless stated otherwise in the feat description.
So while a DC22 2nd level spell from a 9th level caster isn't impossible (especially since it turned out the caster had a +2INT bonus from race, and a +4INT headband), it's not quite as easy to achieve as I thought.
Cheers, --- Wheldrake
Am I crazy, or have some of us been quoting the use of metamagic spells to raise the spell level improperly?
I assumed that when you raised a level 2 web spell a few levels with metamagic feats, that this would raise the spell's save DC accordingly. However, according to the RAW:Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell
In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell. Saving throw modifications are not changed unless stated otherwise in the feat description.
So while a DC22 2nd level spell from a 9th level caster isn't impossible (especially since it turned out the caster had a +2INT bonus from race, and a +4INT headband), it's not quite as easy to achieve as I thought.
Cheers, --- Wheldrake
I don't believe we have been doing so. There is one major exception to the rule you quote there; Heighten Spell.
Heighten Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit
A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.
I've been assuming the metamagic feat in question was Heighten Spell.
Do you honestly think that the only issue with cheese is fairness? No, the primary problem with cheese is that it lowers the credibility of the game. A broken character shatters the suspension of disbelief.
I never claimed that the only issue with cheese is fairness. What I did claim is if you as a player choose not to take certain feats, spells or other material that has been "okay'd" by the DM for use in the campaign does not automatically mean you will never face an enemy that will use those feats, spells, or whatever against the group. Of course there may be limits to this on a credibility level but I don't see it "broken" or "cheesy" for a bad guy spellcaster to be toting around Sudden Metamagic feats and using it against the players (presuming that you could have also chosen to use those feats of course).
In the case of Stats, I expected a character with 26 INT to be very high-level, indeed. Otherwise the game suffers statistics inflation. Lormador doesn't give NPCs more point-buy stats than the PCs get, and I couldn't for the life of me figure out how the character could have 26 INT without it being 16th level, so I was pretty spooked.
I know your DM said an Int of 26 but considering you never "saw" who the caster was how do you know that Int of 26 wasn't reached due to a monstrous race or some other race that gives an Int bonus? Do you have the NPC sheet right in front of you to confirm that an int of 26 is impossible? Maybe your DM mistakenly said Int of 26. I think your DM already tipped his/her hand stating how the NPC was able to pull off a DC 22 web spell and it looks legit on paper so what's the gripe?
As a DM, my primary responsibility is to create a living, viable, fantasy setting. PCs should be the most elite characters in the game, which means that given good tactics and sensible decisions, they should become quite powerful.
I agree up to a certain extent... The PCs should be the top 10% of the world population for their race and level. There will be more powerful and bigger bad asses in the world then them. I'm not going to suspend disbelief by allowing these "elite" level 8 PCs to go take down the local tyrant of Nation X who has been in power for the past 30 years just because they got the "PC" flag next to their names. :P
Now, Lormador's campaign is both equal parts combat-driven and role-play driven. This circumstance was pretty exceptional in an otherwise evenly balanced world, and it was our first encounter with Good forces (the party is a half-orc party serving orcs, but usually what we've been facing is at least as evil as we are). I was wondering if I needed to adapt my tactics, and if this encounter was a hint that Team Good was more powerful and organized than what we've been used to facing.
Generally, it is always good advice to presume your enemies are better prepared or organized then you unless you get information to the contrary. This is where information gathering is a useful tool.
However, I personally hold back from optimization for the second reason that I do not have the required books. Its one thing to flip through the book and create your character. Its another to rely on the DM to suggest all the great things that WotC has provided. I've never heard of City Brawler, Whirling Rage or Chaos Monk before. I don't know what a Mastered Specialist is. The only imbalanced PrC I've ever used was Red Wizard of Thay, and that had more to do with playing a Red Wizard than anything else.
Well, if the DM is recommending certain things in books you don't own, what's the problem here? I would say its a fair DM that does this (since presumably, the DM intends to use said book for the bad guys in some degree). Barring the DM completely misreading or misinterpreting the rules of that feat, spell or prestige class when he recommends it to you, is there really a problem here?
Its pretty daunting to face an encounter and hear of all the great stuff that the NPCs you defeated had, and not know what half of the stuff means! Is it balanced / imbalanced? I have no idea what half of it is! I have seen enough broken stuff from WotC that it no longer means anything for me to be told 'its an official published work.' And in cases where I see stuff done that I find inexplicable, I tend to guess what's at play. And when it seems really powerful and mysterious, I will err on the side of retreat. Because, its always easier to leave and return with more resources than it is fight something powerful and unknown.
That's part of the mystery of the game though I NEVER tell my PCs how the bad guys were able to do A, B and C... That's pure and simple metagaming. If they later investigate how that bodyguard for Bad Guy Y was able to slice the monk PC to ribbons with a pair of scimitars, I might give them a clue then that the bodyguard was a dervish of clan Y.
My point is, as a player, you don't need to know jack about the bad guys you just defeated. It might be nice to know in the event rules were broken in the process but from the DM's side of the screen... if the DM made a mistake, he has options available to him to fix those mistakes. As I mentioned earlier, if I min-maxed a CR 10 bad guy to the point that the CR 10 bad guy nearly caused a TPK to a group of 4 level 11 PCs (and said TPK was not just due to "bad luck"), I have the option to simply raise the CR to 12 when awarding xp. In the end, the PCs have no idea what the CR is on the bad guy anyways so what the hell do they care unless they defeated the bad guy and I give them 0 xp for their efforts.
Part of the reason I communicate about this is to keep things aboveboard: we don't like to use feats and tactics that the other finds distasteful.
I never claimed that the only issue with cheese is fairness. What I did claim is if you as a player choose not to take certain feats, spells or other material that has been "okay'd" by the DM for use in the campaign does not automatically mean you will never face an enemy that will use those feats, spells, or whatever against the group. Of course there may be limits to this on a credibility level but I don't see it "broken" or "cheesy" for a bad guy spellcaster to be toting around Sudden Metamagic feats and using it against the players (presuming that you could have also chosen to use those feats of course).
I seriously disagree with some of these statements. Using Sudden Metamagic to "power up" an NPC maybe isn't so bad in isolation but giving it to an otherwise optimized NPC certainly does become close to "broken" as least. Unless I had a very specific need for something (prereqs or such) why would I EVER use "normal" MM feats for things when the one encounter the NPC has with the players makes much better use of these once per day things. A 5th level mage who can toss a Maxized Fireball at a party is certainly more dangerous than its CR would indicate; what should take out a quarter of a 5th level parties resources now has a very good chance at taking out over half their hp even without casting any other spells.
NPC Evocation mages really have no business running around with a Rod of Empower: Lesser and Sudden Maximize. Even as a player, when I tried this, I felt dirty.
I was playing a Red Wizard though, so it was ok.
What I did claim is if you as a player choose not to take certain feats, spells or other material that has been "okay'd" by the DM for use in the campaign does not automatically mean you will never face an enemy that will use those feats, spells, or whatever against the group.
Of course if I take a feat its fair game for the DM. That's not at issue here.
I don't see it "broken" or "cheesy" for a bad guy spellcaster to be toting around Sudden Metamagic feats and using it against the players (presuming that you could have also chosen to use those feats of course).
Uh, right, and didn't you notice this statement by my DM?
[My player] forbids the Sudden feats
I think your DM already tipped his/her hand stating how the NPC was able to pull off a DC 22 web spell and it looks legit on paper so what's the gripe?
What's YOUR gripe? I don't have a gripe.
The PCs should be the top 10% of the world population for their race and level.
No, that's not right, IMO. It should be top 1%. Top 10% is a minimum of elite array.
Generally, it is always good advice to presume your enemies are better prepared or organized then you unless you get information to the contrary. This is where information gathering is a useful tool.
That's ironic, b/c the only reason the encounter took place was because I was information gathering. It was an emergency teleport-and-aid to a companion who was in trouble. Well, if the DM is recommending certain things in books you don't own, what's the problem here? I would say its a fair DM that does this (since presumably, the DM intends to use said book for the bad guys in some degree). Barring the DM completely misreading or misinterpreting the rules of that feat, spell or prestige class when he recommends it to you, is there really a problem here?
The problem is that there is a $500-$1,000 gap between the books I own and what he owns. Recently, I've been using online stuff to keep up. I'm very comfortable with the feat lists and spell lists I have access to. But, you can't be complacent when enemies are drawing on this stuff.
That's part of the mystery of the game though I NEVER tell my PCs how the bad guys were able to do A, B and C... That's pure and simple metagaming. If they later investigate how that bodyguard for Bad Guy Y was able to slice the monk PC to ribbons with a pair of scimitars, I might give them a clue then that the bodyguard was a dervish of clan Y.
My point is, as a player, you don't need to know jack about the bad guys you just defeated. It might be nice to know in the event rules were broken in the process but from the DM's side of the screen... if the DM made a mistake, he has options available to him to fix those mistakes. As I mentioned earlier, if I min-maxed a CR 10 bad guy to the point that the CR 10 bad guy nearly caused a TPK to a group of 4 level 11 PCs (and said TPK was not just due to "bad luck"), I have the option to simply raise the CR to 12 when awarding xp. In the end, the PCs have no idea what the CR is on the bad guy anyways so what the hell do they care unless they defeated the bad guy and I give them 0 xp for their efforts.
Yeah, yeah. I'm a bad, metagaming PC.
Listen, in your long post, you didn't even address my central point at all. There is no gripe. There's concern that I'm not optimizing my characters enough to handle the PCs.
If you read the original post, you'll notice that I knew NOTHING of the character I faced, except the DC of the spell the entire party failed against.
Am I crazy, or have some of us been quoting the use of metamagic spells to raise the spell level improperly?
I assumed that when you raised a level 2 web spell a few levels with metamagic feats, that this would raise the spell's save DC accordingly. However, according to the RAW:
So while a DC22 2nd level spell from a 9th level caster isn't impossible (especially since it turned out the caster had a +2INT bonus from race, and a +4INT headband), it's not quite as easy to achieve as I thought.
Cheers, --- Wheldrake
Well, normally a metamagic feat does not increase actualy increase the spell's level or DC, "unless otherwise stated in the feat description"
the Heighten Metamagic feat howerver is specifically for increasing the spells level and subsequent saving throw DC of that spell.
Whereas when using other meta magic feats on a spell like Web, (Enlarge to increase it's range, Extend to increase duration, Widen to double the area of effect, etc) it would still be a level 2 Spell in all aspects. Heighten's only purpose though is to increase it's Spell level. It also says that it does this in it's description.
Heighten is an excelent feat that in my expereince is undervalued by most PCs.
Heighten is an excelent feat that in my expereince is undervalued by most PCs.
What are some spells you enjoy heightening?
What are some spells you enjoy heightening?
Charm Person is a start. Sure there are more "advanced" versions like Charm Monster but just being able to Heighten Charm Person to increase the DC often gets around the need for an entirely new spell.
I'm not go to go through the spell list but there are a number of relatively unique spells that can benefit from increasing the save DC via Heighten Spell.
What are some spells you enjoy heightening?
Mostly lower level spells that are useful to have, but fall behind sharply in power as you level, since your enemies have higher DCs.
Charm Person for instance, as mentioned above, if you wish to Charm a higher level NPC, or a tough target then raising the DC of this level 1 spell by 5 or 6 is a huge help. Hold Person is another that can be bolstered this way.
Really any lower level spell that can be improved some with a bolstered DC can be used effectively this way. Command UnDead, Detect Thoughts, Magic Circle Against good/evil, Protection from Good/Evil, Dominate Person or Monster, Disintegrate, Dispel Evil, Modify Memory, Discern Lies, Illusion spells.
Basically there are alot of spells, particularly situational spells (such as when you need to use a particular spell for a particular task and wish to succeed, like Charming a particular person to get information, or interogating someone with Discern lies) When you need a specific spell to work to accomplish your plan then raising it's save DC is very useful.
Sudden feats are extra dangerous against PCs because the villains who have them often tend to not have had any other encounters that day in which they would have used their feat. And if they did, it's a dead feat because it won't have any effect on actual play.
NPC Evocation mages really have no business running around with a Rod of Empower: Lesser and Sudden Maximize. Even as a player, when I tried this, I felt dirty.
I was playing a Red Wizard though, so it was ok.
Usually NPCs have lesser use for Sudden Feats, save for the higher level spell slot it saves. This is because NPCs have always the chance of being prepared: after all they know what they will face unless the DM doesn't want them to. Otherwise an NPC will always have the spells prepared exactly as he will need them. And the occasional cheating can come in handy (but I usually use this just to enhance the fun: if a fight is boring due to poor rolls from the part of NPCs or for ineffective tactics, a danger like a metamgic-affected spell can shake the static).
I think Sudden-feats are for player only: for NPCs it isn't useful most of the time and the few times they will have need of them, it is a feat that can be faked easily (provided that you don't let the players sneak at your NPCs stats :D ).
Usually NPCs have lesser use for Sudden Feats, save for the higher level spell slot it saves. .snip.
I think Sudden-feats are for player only: for NPCs it isn't useful most of the time and the few times they will have need of them, it is a feat that can be faked easily (provided that you don't let the players sneak at your NPCs stats :D ).
NPCs have no reason NOT to use Sudden feats if allowed. It is the regular MM feats they don't have much use for. With NPC spellcasters the only spell slots that really matter (except for survivability/buffing) are their highest level spells; here the SuddenMM feats allow them to exceed their normal power. I mentioned the 5th level Wizard using Sudden Maxize on its Fireball as an example why they are so good for NPCs; that one feat suddenly gives that character the capacity to do something that normally wouldn't be available for another SIX levels.
You are right that the Sudden feats should be player only but for the opposite reason you mention. Far from finding Sudden MM useless those feats give NPCs power far beyond their level without the usual "encounters per day" mechanic that PCs must deal with to balance them.
Listen, in your long post, you didn't even address my central point at all. There is no gripe. There's concern that I'm not optimizing my characters enough to handle the PCs.
If you read the original post, you'll notice that I knew NOTHING of the character I faced, except the DC of the spell the entire party failed against.
*sigh* The fact that you think PCs should = top 1% of the world population goes a long way why I thought you were griping abuot the NPC spellcaster's DC 22 Web spell (which I believed was a gripe).
As for your question as phrased... Ask your fellow players and/or DM for assistance. If your fellow players are insulting, annoyed, or have the opinion you're not doing enough for the group or pulling your weight for the group, you might need to optimize your PC some more (or just need to tweak your spell selection). If you think you're useless against the bad guys you fight for whatever reason, you may need to optimize more (or tweak your spell selection).
Ask for assistance from others on how to optimize your PC. The DM apparently has resources greater than what you have. That should give you a nice fountain of knowledge to pick from. Maybe you can find a few good feats or spells that may help you out in the long run. Who knows.
Based on your 1 encounter example against an unknown enemy, its impossible to judge whether you need to optimize your PC "more".
Optimized characters and/or monsters do tend to be rare in the campaign, which is probably part of what caused the alarm. A lot of NPCs under level 6 are straight core, and slews of monsters have been encountered straight out of the book.
I save tweaked characters with class levels, templated monsters, etc for those really special games that are meant to be a tactical challenge. Remember that party of dark elves assassins? We lost a PC that day. Your first encounter with the mind flayer? Lost the wizard to his betrayal.
In contrast, the DC 22 Web was only a brief encounter, with little story element behind it. It was simply the first level of 'red phone' response when a threat like a 13th level evil party openly wreaks havoc in a city, Sundabar in this case. He was a 9th level conjurer with a few guards. Not exactly an ancient gold wyrm or a solar.
Amusingly, I have not received the slightest hint of an objection of unfairness following our next game, in which I presented repeated DC 33 Will saves to avoid being charmed by the aforementioned mind flayer nemesis.
I will not reveal the means for that one, but it's mostly straight XPH.
Summary: NPCs don't need them because they blatantly cheat? Gotcha. :P
Er... yeah, but just for fun's sake.
Maybe it's better if I give the full account: I used such a cheat just twice in my years as a DM. That was in both cases supposed to be a major encounter, but I had planned it poorly, so I saw the player were getting bored. At the time I had no CArc to refer to (the first time it happened I was still running 3.0), so I had the wizard cast a Quickened spell (haste the first time, invisibility the second) in order to escape into another area where I knew there were more minions and thus trying to gave the players another chance of getting a good fight. The first time it went as badly, because the party's wizard had it's initiative count just after the villain and all he had to do was saying "Fireball at the fleeing bastard" and the villain, already wounded, was ashes within the next 4 seconds.
The second time, no one was prepared to invisibility and the villain managed to escape within the magic laboratory where he had summoned a couple of bearded devils (and he had time to cast Summon Monster III thanks to a scroll hidden there, used to call 3 Lemures in his aid). This second fight thrilled the PCs (6th lvl) a lot and they took extra pleasure in beating the foul Wizard that had managed to briefly escape their grasp.
None of these two wizards had the Sudden Quicken and I strictly didn't use the cheat to damage the players, just to give the chance of a better fight.
Otherwise, on normally planned encounters I don't use Sudden feats because I can set the course of the fight: I know, for example, that when the party enters the room, the evil wizard has already cast mage armor/shield/imp. invisibility/levitate (or fly) on himslef, he has enlarged/hastened his three ogre bodyguards and he is now floating 15 feet above the ground, with a readied action (fireball or other damaging spell) that triggers as soon as he gets a good shot at the party. For the rest of the encounter he shouldn't need any Sudden feat (he has plenty of opportunity of both casting more spells, both to buff the ogres ot to damage the PCs, or even the time to escape unnoticed if his minions fail).
That I meant when I said "cheating": I never use cheating to favor or hamper the PCs. If they die, they die. If they score a critical I don't claim the villain is suddenly immune to criticals. And never (never) would I use a Suddenly Quickened fireball or meteor swarm without the NPC having the feat. My cheats are strictly used very rarely and just to enhance the fun, never to directly damage the PCs or to "win" a fight. I'm not the kind of "vs Players" DM.
(and to be perfectly clear: the situation that started this thread didn't involve any fudging)
Besides, I don't like when my miscalculations ruin the fun of the game.
And I don't fudge rolls: I roll them in the open (except for when it is important that the result is unknown to the player - and even then I don't fudge them). Once I used to fudge a roll or two from time to time (rarely), but then a player became aware of that and talked to me, saying that it was better if I didn't fudge the rolls, because it spoiled the fun. So I stopped.
Strange enough, but my players don't like the easy win: they like it the hard way. If they get a fight too easy to win, they get bored and become distracted.
Besides, I don't like when my miscalculations ruin the fun of the game.
And I don't fudge rolls: I roll them in the open (except for when it is important that the result is unknown to the player - and even then I don't fudge them). Once I used to fudge a roll or two from time to time (rarely), but then a player became aware of that and talked to me, saying that it was better if I didn't fudge the rolls, because it spoiled the fun. So I stopped.
This. What's funny about this is some people that have never seen my games think I coddle my players. As if something that was very nearly a TPK in the very first combat can be considered coddling.
Note that had they made even the slightest effort to inquire as to the dangers of where they were going with... just about anyone they'd have been informed - repeatedly as to the nature of the threat.
Oh and the coddling came up because apparently you have to be spoiled to see no use for a redundant and counterproductive tactic (sundering).
This. What's funny about this is some people that have never seen my games think I coddle my players. As if something that was very nearly a TPK in the very first combat can be considered coddling.
Note that had they made even the slightest effort to inquire as to the dangers of where they were going with... just about anyone they'd have been informed - repeatedly as to the nature of the threat.
Oh and the coddling came up because apparently you have to be spoiled to see no use for a redundant and counterproductive tactic (sundering).
I'm not sure about the meaning of "coddling", but I can assure you I wasn't assuming anything about your games. I'm sorry if I gave the wrong impression and I didn't mean to offend you in any way.
Alright, so I was playing the other day and my DM threw a DC 22 Reflex save at me. After my two 13th level characters failed, we discovered we were trapped . . . in a web.
A DC 22 web is pretty hardcore, and I'd hate to have to deal with the DC 25 Arc of Lightning.
My question is, should a DM give his NPC wizard (BBEG or not) a +10 mod to spell DCs (when characters are at ~13th level)? If so, how often? Under what circumstances?
one of my first DM's did it all the time. augmented monsters and such, correct builds of our enemies put in place to fight us. made me a better player imo.
I'm not sure about the meaning of "coddling", but I can assure you I wasn't assuming anything about your games. I'm sorry if I gave the wrong impression and I didn't mean to offend you in any way.
Nah. I was agreeing with your post. That part was a general statement aimed at the topic, not you. Because this entire thing is about 'min/maxing' NPCs and yet they only end up at normal levels of effectiveness. I expected something like complaining the DM used a pouncing charger which killed a PC 3 times over or something.
That, and grumbling in general because I was called that in another thread simply because I strongly believed breaking own treasure = bad bad bad.
this entire thing is about 'min/maxing' NPCs and yet they only end up at normal levels of effectiveness. I expected something like complaining the DM used a pouncing charger which killed a PC 3 times over or something.
No, there's no complaining or moaning by the OP in this thread. This seems to have thrown a lot of people.
No, there's no complaining or moaning by the OP in this thread. This seems to have thrown a lot of people.
Exactly. I expected a topic about 'Should a DM min/max NPCs' to contain an actual example of a DM min/maxing NPCs. I chose charge at random. Don't miss the forest for the trees though, as that detail is irrelevant.
It didn't contain such an example. It contained a normal mage. Which leads me to wonder just what sort of easy crap he's getting the rest of the time.
Psst. Sunic. Kuros81 is the original poster. ;)
Either way. :P
Exactly. I expected a topic about 'Should a DM min/max NPCs' to contain an actual example of a DM min/maxing NPCs. I chose charge at random. Don't miss the forest for the trees though, as that detail is irrelevant. It didn't contain such an example. It contained a normal mage. Which leads me to wonder just what sort of easy crap he's getting the rest of the time.
A few posts up from this is one from the DM:
Amusingly, I have not received the slightest hint of an objection of unfairness following our next game, in which I presented repeated DC 33 Will saves to avoid being charmed by the aforementioned mind flayer nemesis.
I will not reveal the means for that one, but it's mostly straight XPH.
That was last game.
Lets see, a few games ago we wandered around Menzoberranzan, being threatened left and right by drow (we're half-orcs, btw). We had another player in that game (its usually solo), so our mission was to strike at a drow ambush set up at an Earth Node. There were about 5 drow (+0 LA, I'm assuming, b/c no SR) versus our 4 12th level characters, not including their numerous undead minions. All of the characters were PrC'd except for the cleric, who was 12th level. We only survived b/c of a mass Heal scroll my character had brought, and one of the other player's characters straight up died.
So, has this description met your assumptions?
No, its ludicrous to face all the above and not complain at that and meanwhile groan over a single mage because he elicits a high DC. Someone would have to miss the forest, which is the general topic 'Should a DM min/max NPCs?' for the trees of DC xx on a level Y mage.
Surviving because of a healing scroll is normal: after all such a scroll is usually saved for really bad times. You had a real tough fight (from the few info you give). Again, you ask about min/maxing, but so far your DM doesn't seem to max out anything.
A maxed NPC is a 3.0 balor, with a vorpal falchion that threats a critical on 12-20 and misses only with a 1. (3.0 vorpal worked on confirmed crits.). That was maxed out. My character was beheaded thrice in a row (each time resurrected by DM's overpowerful NPC: the one that did everything because the challenge was too high for us). That is called maxing.
Take this assumption as true: if the characters survive (either easily or with effort), the encounter has not been maxed out. If the characters die and must be aided by an NPC or else they cannot prevail, the encounter is maxed out.
From the info you gave, the encounter with the drow sounds merely difficult. Maybe if you are able to provide stats, we shall be able to see if it was maxed out.
Hope I have been of help.
What was the drow level? Which classes? What did they do during the battle?
Lets see. When we entered the area, there was a massive zombie (it wasn't a hydra, though).
So the drow came out and supported the hydra. One was a mounted warrior who was ineffective because his mount failed versus confusion. One was an archer/mage who pinged us from a corner, using that feat that allows you to amp your damage by dropping spells. Another was a blinking rogue/mage, who I'm positive was 12th level. He was dealing sick, sick damage with sneak attack. There was a standard combatant who could deal damage. And finally, there was a 12th level priestess who tried to cast harm on my character (only failing because I had up a Death Ward
). It was an optimized party. Crazy PrCs I hadn't heard of, items perfectly matching the characters (altho the DM is generous with us getting items, although a little miserly with allowing time for crafting).
Again, since there's a presumption that I'm a whiny player, I want to point out that I did not complain about this encounter. Although, I did point out that if all the encounters were this serious, the campaign wouldn't last. The biggest problem we had in this encounter was the other player was not uncooperative, demanding, and not comfortable playing his newly crafted wizard.
Well, having to face well equipped and trained NPCs is tougher and requires greater and better preparation from the PCs. Certain monsters, such orcs or ogres, have a low intelligence and will be likely to be disorganyzed and they will often have mismatched equipment.
Having to face drow, on the other side, is something completely different, because drow have access to elite equipment and training (that means: powerful items and strange PrCs), and they are intelligent enough to use complex and deadly tactics.
So it all depends on what you are going to face next: if you expect more drow, expect also more fights like this (it's only a matter of preparation). Such fights are made a lot easier by a coordinated tactic with the rest of the party. For example: the fighters keep the drow warriors busy, while the rogue sneak attacks the wizard. The party's cleric cast cure/protection spells while the wizard either supports the fighters or takes care of the drow healer (hold spells are deadly useful in this case, even counting the drow's resistance to spells).
Anyway, encounters shouldn't be all this difficult (you'll see: you'll face more often groups of lower level drow).
Let's see, the builds... the dark elf party consisted of a Bladesinger, a Seeker of the Misty Isle, a Hexblade/Dragon Disciple, and my favorite, the Swashbuckler/Rogue/Fighter/Dervish. The group was not, in fact, outnumbered!
The Bladesinger was packing Wraithstrike + Arcane Strike, and he was very effective. The Grimlock barbarian grossly underestimated him, charging only to find he had an absurd armor class and displacement up. The bladesinger proceeded to deal him a bit over 100 damage with his longsword. If not for the Dervish, the Bladesinger would have been the MVP.
Their Cleric of Lloth was a Seeker of the Misty Isle with DMM: Persistent Spell, a cleric archer. DMM: Persistent isn't nearly as powerful for NPCs as it is for PCs, and she didn't have any Nightsticks. (One can benefit from only a single one in my game, anyway.) While her role during the battle did not seem to be spectacular, by creating the undead and buffing her friends, not to mention killing a player with a Flame Strike, she put in a solid performance. Her error in the end was hubris: she thought she could kill this pathetic half-orc with overwhelming magic, but his Death Ward (till then unused) foiled her.
Their Turkey was the Hexblade/Dragon Disciple. Man, what was I thinking with this one? Probably I just wanted to describe a Howler carrying an insane dark elf knight with a lance. He had a bunch of great charging feats. However, he was foiled by a bad Spot check, and then his mount wound up confused.... his Howler proceeded to engage the undead on his side. He retreated in shame. This turned out to be fortunate, but I cannot reveal how due to ongoing story concerns.
I should have known better than to use a Dragon Disciple. I would never do that if I was playing this character!
Their MVP, who dealt far more damage to the party than I expected him to, was the Rogue/Fighter/Dervish with Craven, Greater Invisibility, and a Ring of Blinking. He hid in a fog cloud and Dervish Danced out to the party before they were able to detect him. Damn near killed them all, he put the party on the defensive while they struggled with the undead. I thought for a moment that I'd gone too far.
The player is right, this fight would have been a lot easier if the less-experienced player had played his spellcaster more appropriately. He wound up dying to a Flame Strike with Protection from Energy memorized, and ample opportunity to cast it.
Look, obviously these NPCs weren't as easy as those from the DMG. It was a long, tough, and AWESOME fight. I daresay it was worthy of what a fight against a dark elf assassination squad should be. And I note that, with NO PUNCHES PULLED, the PCs won after a long, brutal clash. That, in my book, is a satisfying culmination to a Menzoberranzan game.
If that is the style of play that the players adopt, then there isn't any problem with a DM min/maxing his NPC's. After all, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. But, should he? The only answer is that the DM should create the NPC's that will best suit his needs and desires for his campaign and create NPC's that will allow him to create the best possible campaign for his players.
This is basically it. A DM builds an encounter or villain to be of a desired difficulty to the players.While it might be simple enough to choose a creature or build that would fit that chalenge, such as taking a creature as is from the monster manual, it doesn't always fit the concept that the DM desires.
For example, if the DM wished to make the villain a Goblin King, he would have to beef up a normal, 5 hp Goblin quite substantially to accomplish this. Players could object that a Goblin strong enough to chalenge a 7th level party is obviously min/maxed.
If you are going to create an "elite Drow assasination squad" then you are going to make those Drow Elite, both in classes, levels and gear.
So long as the PCs represent the desired chalenge for the encounter and the PCs get an appropriate reward, XP and Treasure for the chalenge then there shouldn't be a problem.
There is only a problem when this is doen so that the PCs can't win and need the help of other NPCs or if they don't get an appropriate reward for the challenge, nothing worse then fighting a maxed out Goblin with 5 levels of a prestige class, special feats and gear and only getting the normal XP and treasure of a regular 5hp Goblin.
Not all encounters are as difficult as that drow encounter was. Given that the stated mission was to "destroy a dark elf assassination squad" that was waiting to ambush a powerful psion, I thought it should be worth something. I use Lesser Variants because I think it's sad when drow are weak, though I depart from the rules in the book when they ask me to make all drow one way or the other. Some drow are regular, and others are lesser. I like to choose the optimal one, based on the situation, and usually this means Lesser Drow.
Let's see, the builds... the dark elf party consisted of a Bladesinger, a Seeker of the Misty Isle, a Hexblade/Dragon Disciple, and my favorite, the Swashbuckler/Rogue/Fighter/Dervish. The group was not, in fact, outnumbered!
The Bladesinger was packing Wraithstrike + Arcane Strike, and he was very effective. The Grimlock barbarian grossly underestimated him, charging only to find he had an absurd armor class and displacement up. The bladesinger proceeded to deal him a bit over 100 damage with his longsword. If not for the Dervish, the Bladesinger would have been the MVP.
Their Cleric of Lloth was a Seeker of the Misty Isle with DMM: Persistent Spell, a cleric archer. DMM: Persistent isn't nearly as powerful for NPCs as it is for PCs, and she didn't have any Nightsticks. (One can benefit from only a single one in my game, anyway.) While her role during the battle did not seem to be spectacular, by creating the undead and buffing her friends, not to mention killing a player with a Flame Strike, she put in a solid performance. Her error in the end was hubris: she thought she could kill this pathetic half-orc with overwhelming magic, but his Death Ward (till then unused) foiled her.
Their Turkey was the Hexblade/Dragon Disciple. Man, what was I thinking with this one? Probably I just wanted to describe a Howler carrying an insane dark elf knight with a lance. He had a bunch of great charging feats. However, he was foiled by a bad Spot check, and then his mount wound up confused.... his Howler proceeded to engage the undead on his side. He retreated in shame. This turned out to be fortunate, but I cannot reveal how due to ongoing story concerns.
I should have known better than to use a Dragon Disciple. I would never do that if I was playing this character!
Their MVP, who dealt far more damage to the party than I expected him to, was the Rogue/Fighter/Dervish with Craven, Greater Invisibility, and a Ring of Blinking. He hid in a fog cloud and Dervish Danced out to the party before they were able to detect him. Damn near killed them all, he put the party on the defensive while they struggled with the undead. I thought for a moment that I'd gone too far.
The player is right, this fight would have been a lot easier if the less-experienced player had played his spellcaster more appropriately. He wound up dying to a Flame Strike with Protection from Energy memorized, and ample opportunity to cast it.
Look, obviously these NPCs weren't as easy as those from the DMG. It was a long, tough, and AWESOME fight. I daresay it was worthy of what a fight against a dark elf assassination squad should be. And I note that, with NO PUNCHES PULLED, the PCs won after a long, brutal clash. That, in my book, is a satisfying culmination to a Menzoberranzan game.
Will it be asking too much if I asked you to send me their stats via PM?
Thank you very much.
I liked this encounter's description very much and I'd like to implement something similar in my current campaign.
Besides, for drow I use a home-made rule (I think I've read it on Monte Cook's site) due to which drow don't have any LA, this id due to their fragility and their SR and their magic abilities are not enough to justify a true +1 LA. This way a fight with drow is usually a really tough matter in my games (but, until today, it has happened a few times, because I've been accused of being too much of a drow-loving DM back in a previous adventure I made).
Whether or not Drow have a level adjustment has no effect on how tough the fight is. LA doesn't alter CR, at all.
Based on the fact he said +1 and not +2 I think he meant to say CR. That way they aren't delayed a level in their favored spellcasting approach.
Whether or not Drow have a level adjustment has no effect on how tough the fight is. LA doesn't alter CR, at all.
Yes, it's as Sunic pointed out; due to translation (english is not my language) I tend to make such mistakes: I meant the fact that, by the rules, a 5th lvl fighter drow is a CR 6 encounter.
I think that represents a lower challenge, so I rule that for drow class level=CR, without modifying.
The level adjustment even saps their offensive capabilities. It's really quite sad. To give them appropriate offense requires levels, but those levels can push their SR to difficult levels. High SR can be frustrating to play against, similar to high miss chances.
Fortunately, players with knowledge of the regular drow race who are not familiar with the Lesser Drow variant frequently make dangerous assumptions about them. They will sometimes assume that the dark elves have high spell resistance: they will assume the drow will not have as much access to high level spells: and they will assume drow reliance on known spell-like abilities.
When the dark elves show up packing serious heat, with a different array of defenses than expected, using unfamiliar tactics, the encounter gets much scarier.
Yes it's tough to price their SR, because it's such a swingy ability. I'm not a huge fan of it, and their hit points are even more fragile than regular elves. I don't see why Lloth puts up with it!
And if you play drow from 1st level, your DM might say, "Bah, they have spell resistance, I'll just throw fireballs at them."
Seriously, do you know anyone that would do this? It's just crazy.
There is no way anyone could ever be so sadistic, foolish, and wasteful of his player characters to fireball them at level 1.
Seriously, do you know anyone that would do this? It's just crazy.
ECL 3. At which point a Wizard 5 is a reasonable but difficult challenge.
Yet more proof Drow aren't worth an LA of 2.
ECL 3. At which point a Wizard 5 is a reasonable but difficult challenge.
Yet more proof Drow aren't worth an LA of 2.
I believe that they were talking about lesser drow, which have no LA.
I believe that they were talking about lesser drow, which have no LA.
Lesser drow still have SR? And are LA 0?
Lesser drow still have SR? And are LA 0?
No. In fact they haven't SR. But, if I got it right, I think that they were talking about assuming all drow have it (when these they are talking about have not) and throwing a fireball at them.
Their first encounter? A drider sorcerer, levitating on the ceiling, which proceeded to fireball them both. One made the spell resistance roll (by 1) and the other succeeded on the Reflex save (thanks to having the domain with Lightning Reflexes) to come out at 1 hit point.
The encounter is famous in our circle for being an example of an inappropriate challenge.
ECL 3. At which point a Wizard 5 is a reasonable but difficult challenge.
Yet more proof Drow aren't worth an LA of 2.
It was a Drider Sorcerer6. Admittedly, there was a full party, 2 PCs, 2 equivalent NPCs, and 3-4 Drow Adepts with cures.
First round it won init and levitated to the cieling as we tried to hit its AC 21 (17 + Shield) with our missile weapons. Of course, we can only hit AC 21 on 18-20, because we're first level.
Barely hit, it casts a spell.
But that was a 6d6 fireball.
The DM rolled an SR check for each of us. The other character failed his save but made the SR (he rolled the save before the DM rolled SR). The drider broke my character's SR, but I made the save. 17 damage halved to 8. My character had 9 HP.
The +2 LA is not representative at 1st level. 1st level drow are not equivalent to ECL 3, I don't care what the book says. They have 1 HD and a Drider Sorcerer6 overcomes their SR 2/3ds of the time.
We reacted by holding actions, while my cleric casted Doom, knowing that it was more likely to fail its save and take -2 to its concentration check than the cleric was to hit it with +3 to his ranged attack. Somehow, one of the NPCs was able to disrupt it while it was casting its 2nd fireball. But, Driders have something like 45hp, and it had lost only 5 or 6 hp, and had plenty more fireballs to toss.
The DM decided that since it was 'shaken,' hit by a crossbow bolt, and its spell had disrupted, it would flee in fear. Basically, he had to pull punches.
Do you think that was an appropriate encounter? If we were 3rd level humans, we would've fared much better, I think. ECL and LA don't tell the whole story.
"I say we're arguing."
"No we're not."
"Oh yes we are!"
"Well, we aren't!"
Sorry guys, initiative. Gimme a roll.
Which is appropriate, because I was slow enough to misread his initial post.
Initiative is yours, Sunic. The bear is flat-footed.
The strange flaming humanoid reacts before the flat-footed bear, catching him unawares and unable to defend himself. Before the hairy beast can so much as rear and roar, his opponent takes action.
Initiative is yours, Sunic. The bear is flat-footed.
Ok, my contingency chain activates, eradicating him, his family, and everyone he was ever friends with up to three generations back. No save. I still haven't acted yet.
/parody
Ok, my contingency chain activates, eradicating him, his family, and everyone he was ever friends with up to three generations back. No save. I still haven't acted yet.
/parody
Dammit, Lormador, stop min/maxing my opponents!
You appear before him in his magnificence, and he speaks to you thus:
"Oh Great Bear, my Chosen Were-Bear Paladin, you have brought shame to your race and ruin to my religion. I told you to take Anticipatory Strike, dammit! Then none of this would have happened!"
Hoar smites you with his longsword and your spirit hurtles, screaming, down through the many layers of the Upper Planes, through Limbo, straight down to the 5,463,267th layer of the Abyss, to writhe in agony for all time.
Unfortunately, Sunic, a rock with CHEESE CONTROL carved on it in Celestial runes drops from the sky, striking and killing you despite all your magical protections. Your soul naturally gravitates to the 5,463,267th layer of the Abyss, known as the Layer of Brokenness, since you were Chaotic Evil and broken to begin with.
You must both now endure endless torment in the Realm of the Underwater Tiger Ninjas. Rrrrarrrrrr!
The Bear is slain, and his soul and the souls of his family rise to the realm of the gods. Your field of vision is filled with a vision of blinding white light, slowly parting to reveal billowing clouds glittering with heavenly radiance. You are floating, bodiless, towards a great throne in the sky. Seated upon the throne is Hoar, the god of vengeance.
You appear before him in his magnificence, and he speaks to you thus:
"Oh Great Bear, my Chosen Were-Bear Paladin, you have brought shame to your race and ruin to my religion. I told you to take Anticipatory Strike, dammit! Then none of this would have happened!"
Hoar smites you with his longsword and your spirit hurtles, screaming, down through the many layers of the Upper Planes, through Limbo, straight down to the 5,463,267th layer of the Abyss, to writhe in agony for all time.
Unfortunately, Sunic, a rock with CHEESE CONTROL carved on it in Celestial runes drops from the sky, striking and killing you despite all your magical protections. Your soul naturally gravitates to the 5,463,267th layer of the Abyss, known as the Layer of Brokenness, since you were Chaotic Evil and broken to begin with.
You must both now endure endless torment in the Realm of the Underwater Tiger Ninjas. Rrrrarrrrrr!
Sorry to disappoint you, but even if that did get through a loophole in the fourth wall piercing contract that grants immunity to 'Rocks fall, everyone dies' I have a contract here written by the Lord of the Ninth himself, who naturally knows how to write such things without loopholes stating that my soul goes to him upon death.
So I get to chill out in darkness, feel up some Erinyes... it's nice to be in Hell.
Besides, ever heard of the Inverse Ninja Law? Epic fail.
This thread has just transcended to a new level of awesomeness.
You should min/max to at least the same degree that the PCs are.
Exactly what I was going to say when I saw the thread title.
My NPCs aren't all that min/maxed. Don't complain!
Sorry, Sunic, the rock was actually Pun Pun.
My NPCs aren't all that min/maxed. Don't complain!
Even better. Contingent Summon Omnifiscer. :D
You are no longer in a roleplaying game, and shudder to realize you are about to be sacrificed for a tempo advantage.
Your contingency takes effect, and the Omniscifer appears, taking the form of a gigantic anvil with "SUPER STINKY CHEESE CONTROL" engraved on it in flaming letters. As it impacts your head, the rules of reality are altered, and you find yourself a pawn on a chessboard.
You are no longer in a roleplaying game, and shudder to realize you are about to be sacrificed for a tempo advantage.
Fine. My next contingency activates. Free pizza. I win.
Wait a minute....
FREE PIZZA!!!!!!Dang! I can't win even as the DM!
Wait a minute....
After absorbing the divine rank of the vanquished DM, and all the experience of those in his world who spontaneously imploded, Sunic ascends to the rank of Supreme Overdeity. The only drawback to being in such a state is that if he enters the world in certain ways, an annoying lynch mob will attempt to decry his existence as a 'DMPC'. Luckily there are still universes not dominated yet for him to send pawns into unimpeded. :evillaugh