I took it upon myself to take perception for the party (everyone else is pretty poor). It doesn't even cross over anymore. What do you mean that I can't 'perceive' the presence of magic?
Few in my party have passed skill checks. Take 10 is often not worth it and a die roll is sheer luck.
Why do I have the feeling that skills have been neutered into near oblivion? Yes, I know the updates to the DMG DCs but that has no effect the PHB DCs that I can find.
Or should I put on my suit and tie and bring out, as precedence, page 42 of the DMG and point out that if given enough time I'll roll high enough giving the limits of a d20 to detect anything level 20 or less?
I'm a second level wizard (19 int) trained in arcana... I can't even detect the PRESENCE of magic without a roll of +11 or more. How hard is it when the freaking armor glows? or is my DM being an A~~?
I would say your DM is being difficult. You don't need an Arcana check to detect magic items. They should be obvious, and identifying them is automatic during a short rest.
I took it upon myself to take perception for the party (everyone else is pretty poor). It doesn't even cross over anymore. What do you mean that I can't 'perceive' the presence of magic?
You can't, actually. Unless a magical effect has some sort of visible (or audible, olfactory, tactile, or flavorful) means of detection, Perception is useless to notice or identify it. Arcana would be the skill to use.
Few in my party have passed skill checks. Take 10 is often not worth it and a die roll is sheer luck.
Why do I have the feeling that skills have been neutered into near oblivion? Yes, I know the updates to the DMG DCs but that has no effect the PHB DCs that I can find.
I'm not sure I understand what your difficulty is, but based on your example of your DM's behavior, I suspect that the DCs you are up against are unreasonably high.
Or should I put on my suit and tie and bring out, as precedence, page 42 of the DMG and point out that if given enough time I'll roll high enough giving the limits of a d20 to detect anything level 20 or less?
It's true that you could effectively "take 20" by trying to detect magic again and again. I recommend against the suit and tie, however.
Either way see Novacat's post, he's got the right idea about what to do here.
You don't need an Arcana check to detect magic items.
Err... Per the PHB, you do. It takes 1 minute to do the Arcana check:
[INDENT]DC: DC 20 + one-half the level of a magic item, power (conjuration or zone), ritual, or magical phenomenon within range.
Area of Detection: You can detect magic within a number of squares equal to 5 + your level in every direction, and you can ignore any sources of magical energy you’re already aware of. Ignore all barriers; you can detect magic through walls, doors, and such.[/INDENT]
This also addresses the OP's question about DCs.
Of course, you don't need Arcana to see the flames on a flaming sword, but the majority of magic items don't have such obvious effects.
Identifying Magic Items
Most of the time, you can determine the properties and powers of a magic item during a short rest. In the course of handling the item for a few minutes, you discover what the item is and what it does. You can identify one magic item per short rest.
Some magic items might be a bit harder to identify, such as cursed or nonstandard items, or powerful magical artifacts. Your DM might ask for an Arcana check to determine their properties, or you might even need to go on a special quest to find a ritual to identify or to unlock the powers of a unique item.
So, by default Arcana is not needed to ID normal magic loot. The Arcana check could be to detect magic on a locked door, or some kind of illusion or something though.
You can direct the DM to the top right of page 223 of the PHB:
So, by default Arcana is not needed to ID normal magic loot. The Arcana check could be to detect magic on a locked door, or some kind of illusion or something though.
This is the most exellent news I've had in a while. Most of us are old school gamers(1st & 2nd ED detect magic). I wonder what will happen to that gleeful little smirk when I point this one out?
Thank you All
You can direct the DM to the top right of page 223 of the PHB:
So, by default Arcana is not needed to ID normal magic loot. The Arcana check could be to detect magic on a locked door, or some kind of illusion or something though.
I don't think that's the intention of the designers...
As I read it, you can "identify" a magic item (meaning that you can determine what it's powers are) without Arcana. However, you will frequently need to use an Arcana check to determine that a given item is magical in the first place.
Of course, you won't need the Arcana check if the item has some kind of visibly magical effect (e.g., the sword has flames running along it's blade).
I don't think that's the intention of the designers...
As I read it, you can "identify" a magic item (meaning that you can determine what it's powers are) without Arcana. However, you will frequently need to use an Arcana check to determine that a given item is magical in the first place.
Of course, you won't need the Arcana check if the item has some kind of visibly magical effect (e.g., the sword has flames running along it's blade).
So nobody in your group would think, "Hey, that weapon looks pretty interesting, I think I'll poke around with for 5 minutes while we catch our breath." ?
Yes, I know the updates to the DMG DCs but that has no effect the PHB DCs that I can find.
Actually, the PHb skill DC's have been errata'd as well. All of those skill DC's that say "DC x plus the level of the target/effect" are now supposed to be "DC x plus half the level of the target/effect". This puts the DC's in line with the skills gaining +1/2 level to the check.
Plus, I personally hate that the DC for Detect Magic goes up with the power of the item. I think the DC should start at the max, and then subtract half the level of the item, instead of the other way around. More powerful magic should be easier to sense, not harder.
But that's just an opinion, which doesn't really matter. But yeah, PHb skill DC's have been reduced as well.
I don't think that's the intention of the designers...
As I read it, you can "identify" a magic item (meaning that you can determine what it's powers are) without Arcana. However, you will frequently need to use an Arcana check to determine that a given item is magical in the first place.
Of course, you won't need the Arcana check if the item has some kind of visibly magical effect (e.g., the sword has flames running along it's blade).
Given the DMG rules on expected magic item acquisition per level...a DM that denies his party a magic item because they failed an arcana check to recognize it is doing something wrong.
Given the DMG rules on expected magic item acquisition per level...a DM that denies his party a magic item because they failed an arcana check to recognize it is doing something wrong.
True, but the PCs are expected to make an effort too. Although some magic items will be obvious by their nature, that isn't reasonable for all (or even most) magic items.
If the PCs do their part, the DM will too... failing that arcana check won't put the party behind, because the DM will simply adjust accordingly to be sure that they get what they need (the same or another item) another time. (I started to give some examples of ways the DM might adjust, but the list was too long and open-ended.... suffice to say, it isn't much of a problem.)
True, but the PCs are expected to make an effort too. Although some magic items will be obvious by their nature, that isn't reasonable for all (or even most) magic items.
If the PCs do their part, the DM will too... failing that arcana check won't put the party behind, because the DM will simply adjust accordingly to be sure that they get what they need (the same or another item) another time. (I started to give some examples of ways the DM might adjust, but the list was too long and open-ended.... suffice to say, it isn't much of a problem.)
You are right, the PCs should do their part too: spend 5 minutes checking out any gear they find to see if it is worth keeping.
Having a dice roll involved is just unnecessary.
IIRC, somewhere in the DMG it talks about how the DM should probably just tell players "It's a +# item." Then they identify just what the item does with an Extended Rest. IMO, the +'s are really just a gauge to show how potent the magic is within an item, and anyone wielding them should realize that it's improving their chances as much or moreso than flanking.
That said, that caveat about non-standard items can be interpreted by the DM in whatever way he/she sees fit. It makes sense to pick up the weapon of the powerful swordsman you just defeated, but are you necessarily going to pull the boots off his feet or take his belt? That is what I think an Arcana check can be used for. In that case, I think the DM should offer the arcanist a chance to roll to notice the item(s).
That said, that caveat about non-standard items can be interpreted by the DM in whatever way he/she sees fit. It makes sense to pick up the weapon of the powerful swordsman you just defeated, but are you necessarily going to pull the boots off his feet or take his belt? That is what I think an Arcana check can be used for. In that case, I think the DM should offer the arcanist a chance to roll to notice the item(s).
But then you will just end up with players saying, "Well, better strip them all bare -- there's no telling what might be magic around here!" Which is kind of...
PC 1: "Hey, you guys know how that bloke managed to just blow through all that difficult terrain?"
PC 2: "I think it was these sodding shoes on his feet. They look nice, at any rate."
Some magic items might be a bit harder to identify, such as cursed or nonstandard items, or powerful magical artifacts. Your DM might ask for an Arcana check to determine their properties, or you might even need to go on a special quest to find a ritual to identify or to unlock the powers of a unique item.
Important safety tip... if the GM lets you start identifying things more easily but you suddenly start to find lots more cursed items... this is a bad sign.