sneak attack rules? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

sneak attack rules?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
cthulhu070
Jun 08, 2009 16:00:23 if i make a rogue character for 3.5 can i sneak attack with two weapons and then cleave (i dont mind taking penalties for dual wielding)
#2
gargs454
Jun 08, 2009 16:15:27 I would have to dig up my 3.5 books, but I believe you only get the Sneak Attack damage for the first attack. That said, I'm not aware of any restriction on cleave being only for one weapon. This is completely off the top of my head though and its been a while since I played 3.5.
#3
Crimson_Concerto
Jun 08, 2009 16:18:33
I would have to dig up my 3.5 books, but I believe you only get the Sneak Attack damage for the first attack.

This is incorrect. You get sneak attack damage on all attacks that qualify for it, so yes, if you dual wield and then get a cleave attack, you could theoretically apply sneak attack damage to all three attacks.
#4
Novacat
Jun 08, 2009 16:25:46
This is incorrect. You get sneak attack damage on all attacks that qualify for it, so yes, if you dual wield and then get a cleave attack, you could theoretically apply sneak attack damage to all three attacks.

The best way to do this is to flank the target, because that means that all your attacks will qualify. Jumping out of hiding to attack would only apply sneak attack on the first attack. If any of your attacks drops that enemy, you can cleave into another adjacent enemy, assuming you have the feat.
#5
cthulhu070
Jun 08, 2009 16:28:03 also i was wondering if i could sneak attack with a spell
#6
Crimson_Concerto
Jun 08, 2009 16:31:11
also i was wondering if i could sneak attack with a spell

As long as you make an attack roll, you can sneak attack.
So for example, you can't Sneak Attack with Fireball or Magic Missile, but you can Sneak Attack with Scorching Ray or Acid Arrow.
#7
cthulhu070
Jun 08, 2009 16:31:53 ahh ok thank you
#8
gargs454
Jun 08, 2009 16:48:13 Thanks Crimson and Nova. Admittedly I was thinking of the jumping out of hiding aspect of Sneak Attack and not considering flanking.
#9
tedronai
Jun 08, 2009 18:26:08
Jumping out of hiding to attack would only apply sneak attack on the first attack.

-ish.
If this marks the beginning of combat, then they're flat-footed until their first turn. If you win initiative, all of your attacks on your first turn will likely qualify for Sneak Attack damage, even without flanking.
#10
MrCustomer
Jun 08, 2009 20:11:28 Provided that your target is denied his dexterity bonus. You apply sneak attack damage for every attack that you roll for.

You apply sneak attack damage for ranged attacks within 30', including spells that are targetable and that you roll to hit. Note that you can also score critical hits for spells such as scorching ray, and select them for feats such as Weapon Focus: Ray spells or Weapon Focus: Touch Attacks.

Only targetable spells that you roll to hit with (Scorching Ray, inflict wounds) can be used for Sneak attack damage, Spells that you don't roll to hit (magic missile) or area spells (fireball) don't apply Sneak attack damage. Nor do spells that don't cause direct HP damage to the target (Ray of enfeeblement)

Yes you would add sneak atack damage to cleave, but the target would have to be denied his dex bonus (flat footed or flanked) in order for that to work. I beleive that particular situation (where your attack drops the opponent to 0 hp while there is a second opponent who is within 5' and who is also flanked or flat footed) is rare enough that it would be a poor choice for a feat, there are likely other feats that you would benifit more from then this.
#11
jovknee
Jun 09, 2009 10:47:01
Only targetable spells that you roll to hit with (Scorching Ray, inflict wounds) can be used for Sneak attack damage, Spells that you don't roll to hit (magic missile) or area spells (fireball) don't apply Sneak attack damage. Nor do spells that don't cause direct HP damage to the target (Ray of enfeeblement)

A question about this, I understand not getting sneak attack on a spell like Ray of Enfeeblement, but can you score a critical hit with this spell? You do have to roll to hit, and you can add the bonus to WF: Rays.
#12
1_ton_ghost
Jun 09, 2009 11:56:23 -Surprise Round; dual wielding rogue engages, but only w/ 1 Attack (Surprise Rnd = Partial Action = 1 Standard or 1 Move Action + 5ft Step). Attacks, presumably a Surprised (Flat-Footed enemy or one that's lost their Dex bonus [big difference]). 1 Sneak Attack @ full BAB (can't attack dual wielding here [Full Attack] though 2 Weapon Defense may apply, etc.).

If this "drops" enemy (below 0 HP, not 0 itself), he may Cleave another adjacent enemy. Don't forget, you may take a 5ft step during a Surprise Round, but not prior to a Cleave post Attack, that's Mighty Cleave IIRC.
If they (the enemy being Cleaved) are also Surprised, Flat-footed, have lost Dex bonus, or are Flanked, then they, too, are elligible to be Sneak Attacked.

-Even a superior rogue's Uncanny Dodge can be overcome w/ a Feint. Surprise Rnd vs. a Rog or Brb w/ this must be overcome then if your Rog lvls are 4 greater than their's. Otherwise, you need to "jump out" and Flank w/ an ally on the Surprise Rnd, and even then, enemy might have Imp Uncanny Dodge. Still can be overcome w/ 4 lvl clause.

-Penetrating Strike (Dungeonscape), 1/2 sneak attack vs. enemies normally immune (undead, constructs, plants, etc) applies only in Flank. Highly recommended over Trap Sense.

Jovknee: but can you score a critical hit with this spell? You do have to roll to hit, and you can add the bonus to WF: Rays.

d20 + Dex mod + applicable feats + misc mods (Surprise, Cover, etc).
Rays can be critted too; double the ability or HP dmg. Just like Energy Drain or Ability Drain/Dmg, crit doubles those too, only on '20'.
#13
MrCustomer
Jun 09, 2009 18:03:16
A question about this, I understand not getting sneak attack on a spell like Ray of Enfeeblement, but can you score a critical hit with this spell? You do have to roll to hit, and you can add the bonus to WF: Rays.

No, you only double or apply sneak attack damage to dirrect Hp damage, so Weapon Focus: Rays would add the bonus the roll to hit, but it would not add to the damage since the spell cannot do hp damage.
#14
salla
Jun 09, 2009 21:44:54
A question about this, I understand not getting sneak attack on a spell like Ray of Enfeeblement, but can you score a critical hit with this spell? You do have to roll to hit, and you can add the bonus to WF: Rays.

Yes, but since Ray of Enfeeblement deals no damage, the critical hit doesn't do anything.
#15
Zherog
Jun 10, 2009 9:19:27
Yes you would add sneak atack damage to cleave, but the target would have to be denied his dex bonus (flat footed or flanked) in order for that to work.

A flanked target is not denied his/her/its Dexterity bonus to armor class. A flanked target, of course, is a valid target for sneak attack though.

-Surprise Round; dual wielding rogue engages, but only w/ 1 Attack (Surprise Rnd = Partial Action = 1 Standard or 1 Move Action + 5ft Step).

If you actually move as your move action, you cannot also take a 5' step.

Don't forget, you may take a 5ft step during a Surprise Round...
..As long as you haven't already moved in the round.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 cthulhu070 Jun 08, 2009 16:00:23	if i make a rogue character for 3.5 can i sneak attack with two weapons and then cleave (i dont mind taking penalties for dual wielding)
#2 gargs454 Jun 08, 2009 16:15:27	I would have to dig up my 3.5 books, but I believe you only get the Sneak Attack damage for the first attack. That said, I'm not aware of any restriction on cleave being only for one weapon. This is completely off the top of my head though and its been a while since I played 3.5.
#3 Crimson_Concerto Jun 08, 2009 16:18:33	I would have to dig up my 3.5 books, but I believe you only get the Sneak Attack damage for the first attack. This is incorrect. You get sneak attack damage on all attacks that qualify for it, so yes, if you dual wield and then get a cleave attack, you could theoretically apply sneak attack damage to all three attacks.
#4 Novacat Jun 08, 2009 16:25:46	This is incorrect. You get sneak attack damage on all attacks that qualify for it, so yes, if you dual wield and then get a cleave attack, you could theoretically apply sneak attack damage to all three attacks. The best way to do this is to flank the target, because that means that all your attacks will qualify. Jumping out of hiding to attack would only apply sneak attack on the first attack. If any of your attacks drops that enemy, you can cleave into another adjacent enemy, assuming you have the feat.
#5 cthulhu070 Jun 08, 2009 16:28:03	also i was wondering if i could sneak attack with a spell
#6 Crimson_Concerto Jun 08, 2009 16:31:11	also i was wondering if i could sneak attack with a spell As long as you make an attack roll, you can sneak attack. So for example, you can't Sneak Attack with Fireball or Magic Missile, but you can Sneak Attack with Scorching Ray or Acid Arrow.
#7 cthulhu070 Jun 08, 2009 16:31:53	ahh ok thank you
#8 gargs454 Jun 08, 2009 16:48:13	Thanks Crimson and Nova. Admittedly I was thinking of the jumping out of hiding aspect of Sneak Attack and not considering flanking.
#9 tedronai Jun 08, 2009 18:26:08	Jumping out of hiding to attack would only apply sneak attack on the first attack. -ish. If this marks the beginning of combat, then they're flat-footed until their first turn. If you win initiative, all of your attacks on your first turn will likely qualify for Sneak Attack damage, even without flanking.
#10 MrCustomer Jun 08, 2009 20:11:28	Provided that your target is denied his dexterity bonus. You apply sneak attack damage for every attack that you roll for. You apply sneak attack damage for ranged attacks within 30', including spells that are targetable and that you roll to hit. Note that you can also score critical hits for spells such as scorching ray, and select them for feats such as Weapon Focus: Ray spells or Weapon Focus: Touch Attacks. Only targetable spells that you roll to hit with (Scorching Ray, inflict wounds) can be used for Sneak attack damage, Spells that you don't roll to hit (magic missile) or area spells (fireball) don't apply Sneak attack damage. Nor do spells that don't cause direct HP damage to the target (Ray of enfeeblement) Yes you would add sneak atack damage to cleave, but the target would have to be denied his dex bonus (flat footed or flanked) in order for that to work. I beleive that particular situation (where your attack drops the opponent to 0 hp while there is a second opponent who is within 5' and who is also flanked or flat footed) is rare enough that it would be a poor choice for a feat, there are likely other feats that you would benifit more from then this.
#11 jovknee Jun 09, 2009 10:47:01	Only targetable spells that you roll to hit with (Scorching Ray, inflict wounds) can be used for Sneak attack damage, Spells that you don't roll to hit (magic missile) or area spells (fireball) don't apply Sneak attack damage. Nor do spells that don't cause direct HP damage to the target (Ray of enfeeblement) A question about this, I understand not getting sneak attack on a spell like Ray of Enfeeblement, but can you score a critical hit with this spell? You do have to roll to hit, and you can add the bonus to WF: Rays.
#12 1_ton_ghost Jun 09, 2009 11:56:23	-Surprise Round; dual wielding rogue engages, but only w/ 1 Attack (Surprise Rnd = Partial Action = 1 Standard or 1 Move Action + 5ft Step). Attacks, presumably a Surprised (Flat-Footed enemy or one that's lost their Dex bonus [big difference]). 1 Sneak Attack @ full BAB (can't attack dual wielding here [Full Attack] though 2 Weapon Defense may apply, etc.). If this "drops" enemy (below 0 HP, not 0 itself), he may Cleave another adjacent enemy. Don't forget, you may take a 5ft step during a Surprise Round, but not prior to a Cleave post Attack, that's Mighty Cleave IIRC. If they (the enemy being Cleaved) are also Surprised, Flat-footed, have lost Dex bonus, or are Flanked, then they, too, are elligible to be Sneak Attacked. -Even a superior rogue's Uncanny Dodge can be overcome w/ a Feint. Surprise Rnd vs. a Rog or Brb w/ this must be overcome then if your Rog lvls are 4 greater than their's. Otherwise, you need to "jump out" and Flank w/ an ally on the Surprise Rnd, and even then, enemy might have Imp Uncanny Dodge. Still can be overcome w/ 4 lvl clause. -Penetrating Strike (Dungeonscape), 1/2 sneak attack vs. enemies normally immune (undead, constructs, plants, etc) applies only in Flank. Highly recommended over Trap Sense. Jovknee: but can you score a critical hit with this spell? You do have to roll to hit, and you can add the bonus to WF: Rays. d20 + Dex mod + applicable feats + misc mods (Surprise, Cover, etc). Rays can be critted too; double the ability or HP dmg. Just like Energy Drain or Ability Drain/Dmg, crit doubles those too, only on '20'.
#13 MrCustomer Jun 09, 2009 18:03:16	A question about this, I understand not getting sneak attack on a spell like Ray of Enfeeblement, but can you score a critical hit with this spell? You do have to roll to hit, and you can add the bonus to WF: Rays. No, you only double or apply sneak attack damage to dirrect Hp damage, so Weapon Focus: Rays would add the bonus the roll to hit, but it would not add to the damage since the spell cannot do hp damage.
#14 salla Jun 09, 2009 21:44:54	A question about this, I understand not getting sneak attack on a spell like Ray of Enfeeblement, but can you score a critical hit with this spell? You do have to roll to hit, and you can add the bonus to WF: Rays. Yes, but since Ray of Enfeeblement deals no damage, the critical hit doesn't do anything.
#15 Zherog Jun 10, 2009 9:19:27	Yes you would add sneak atack damage to cleave, but the target would have to be denied his dex bonus (flat footed or flanked) in order for that to work. A flanked target is not denied his/her/its Dexterity bonus to armor class. A flanked target, of course, is a valid target for sneak attack though. -Surprise Round; dual wielding rogue engages, but only w/ 1 Attack (Surprise Rnd = Partial Action = 1 Standard or 1 Move Action + 5ft Step). If you actually move as your move action, you cannot also take a 5' step. Don't forget, you may take a 5ft step during a Surprise Round... ..As long as you haven't already moved in the round.