I believe so, yes. Though there are items you can get. There's an armor property(Wild? I do not remember off hand). And an item that iirc you can add to your items called Wild Clasp.
Wilding Clasp.
Note there is a wild(ing) enchantment for both weapons and armors but not worth the cost compared to flat rate of 4000gp for a clasp.
Druids are so insanely overpowered already that I'd probably not allow wilding clasps in any 3.5 campaign I was running. My druid was mind controlled by an enemy and forced to attack her own party and it was a close fight before the DM ended the mind control arbitrarily (to save the sorcerer I think). In the fight the party sorcerer and rogue were both nearly killed. And I was deliberately UNDER playing her abilities.
Well, the only 3.5 druid I've ever played is all of level 6, so has only been wild shaping for a short time. But the only magical item of note that she has is a +1 longbow, so she's not losing anything yet by wild shaping.
Druids are so insanely overpowered already that I'd probably not allow wilding clasps in any 3.5 campaign I was running. My druid was mind controlled by an enemy and forced to attack her own party and it was a close fight before the DM ended the mind control arbitrarily (to save the sorcerer I think). In the fight the party sorcerer and rogue were both nearly killed. And I was deliberately UNDER playing her abilities.
Nice!
Now heres a thought. Wild shaping into a gorilla? Set the weapon down. Shift. Pick it up.
Same thing with a knife for a monkey, etc. Dropping the weapon should be a free action, and if you're going into a bear.. who needs a club?
4000 gp isn't that bad at all.
Buy armor, then buy clasp.
Buy haversack, then buy claps.
Get spikes, then buy claps.
Buy amulet of wis and con, then buy clasp.
Etc.
Well, the only 3.5 druid I've ever played is all of level 6, so has only been wild shaping for a short time. But the only magical item of note that she has is a +1 longbow, so she's not losing anything yet by wild shaping.
Druids are so insanely overpowered already that I'd probably not allow wilding clasps in any 3.5 campaign I was running. My druid was mind controlled by an enemy and forced to attack her own party and it was a close fight before the DM ended the mind control arbitrarily (to save the sorcerer I think). In the fight the party sorcerer and rogue were both nearly killed. And I was deliberately UNDER playing her abilities.
Nice!
Now heres a thought. Wild shaping into a gorilla? Set the weapon down. Shift. Pick it up.
Same thing with a knife for a monkey, etc. Dropping the weapon should be a free action, and if you're going into a bear.. who needs a club?
If I were the DM I would not allow this. Gorillas and monkeys don't have opposable thumbs and as such could not effectively manipulate a weapon with the dexterity necessary to be effective. If the player insisted on it, I'd probably apply a major penalty for using the weapon, something like a -8 or so, with a 50% chance of dropping the weapon on each use.
There is an old 3.5 optimized build using a particular imaginary ape with opposable thumbs, but I probably wouldn't allow those in my campaigns either.
Totally time consuming to take my armor, amulet, haversack, and etc off and put it back on after becoming a gorilla. And you can't spike bear claws.
4000 gp isn't that bad at all.
Buy armor, then buy clasp.
Buy haversack, then buy claps.
Get spikes, then buy claps.
Buy amulet of wis and con, then buy clasp.
Etc.
This, of course, is a just one reason that druids are considered insanely overpowered in 3.5, and is one of the explanations Wizards provided for recreating the rules from scratch when moving to 4e.
I suppose there are plenty of players who love these optimized builds with every imaginable bonus and magical doohickey from any splat book ever conceived, but I have never played in a campaign where cheese is this rampant.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposable_thumbs#O...
Also, I know that Druid is the 2nd most powerful 3.5 class. I'm know I'm playing in a system where certain things just aren't playable and certain things are just godlike. But compared to other polymorph type spells, losing all my equipment kinda sucks. Especially like losing my periapt of wisdom and losing any bonus spells slots that it granted. Or my amulet of health and losing my hit points.
@ brassbaboon:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposable_thumbs#O...
Also, I know that Druid is the 2nd most powerful 3.5 class. I'm know I'm playing in a system where certain things just aren't playable and certain things are just grand. But compared to other polymorph type spells, losing all my equipment kinda sucks. Especially like losing my periapt of wisdom and losing any bonus spells slots that it granted.
Trusting Wikipedia can be hazardous to your mental health. Primates do not have opposable thumbs like humans, and that is why apes including monkeys and chimpanzees cannot manipulate items in the same manner that humans do. The ability to manipulate objects with such fine degrees of dexterity is such a signature trait of the human genus that it is USED to place fossils into the genus "****".
For a competing Wiki reference: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution
A snippet: "In 1994, Randall Susman used the anatomy of opposable thumbs as the basis for his argument that both the **** and Paranthropus species were toolmakers. He compared bones and muscles of human and chimpanzee thumbs, finding that humans have 3 muscles that chimps lack. Humans also have thicker metacarpals with broader heads, making the human hand more successful at precision grasping than the chimpanzee hand. Susman defended that modern anatomy of the human thumb is an evolutionary response to the requirements associated with making and handling tools and that both species were indeed toolmakers.[45]" "Opposable thumb" is not a very well-defined term it appears. I'm using it in the sense that it describes a hand that is capable of picking up and manipulating objects like a human can. Apes can't do it.
LOL, I just noticed that the filter on this board won't let you type the human genus, because it's the same as a slang and insulting word to describe gay people. That's friggin' hilarious.
Also, whether druids are the most powerful class in 3.5 or not depends in part on what level you are. It is possible that at the very highest levels wizards and/or clerics might be more powerful because they are PURE level 9 spellcasters (and so get more higher level spells) but I would argue that druids win hands down until you get to the mid-teens at least. And I'd call it arguable that any of the level 9 spell casters can be called anything but "godlike". So to say that wizards or clerics are more powerful is only a quantitative argument (meaning they can do it more often) not a qualitative one.
Your not going to convince a lotta people bout the thumbs.
Either way I know 3.5 is stupid. My friends and I whipped up a banned and home errata list and called it a day. And Artificer is the most powerful class in 3.5 once they hit level 8 imho (followed by druid, cleric and wizard). But comparing gods to gods doesn't really matter.
Yeah, I know I'm not gonna convince those who like the smell of cheese, but facts is facts, as they say, and gorillas simply can't wield swords, no matter how much it makes someone's druid an awesome build.
I don't see 3.5 as "stupid" I see it as mostly overrun with cheese. Really smelly cheese.
I have a sixth level druid in 3.5. She's nothing special and has no significant magic items outside of a +1 magic longbow she just acquired when the party ranger was killed. Every feat she has is from the Players Handbook. The only spells she uses are from the Players Handbook or the Spell Compendium.
Wildshaped into a leopard and buffed with just a few spells, she has an AC of 25, a dexterity of 24, a str of 22 and can make up to five attacks in one round (bite, 2 claw and 2 rend). Plus, because she has the "natural spell" feat, in her leopard form she can cast ranged attack spells that do up to 6d6 damage and stun the target. Since she has point blank shot and precise shot, plus her dex is all buffed up, she can cast those spells into melee without penalty with a +12 to hit, and many of them hit touch armor class. In that form she has better AC than our tank, does more damage than our rogue, has more reliable damage causing spells than our sorcerer and can even throw a heal or two if needed.
And I haven't even mentioned that she uses "share spell" to buff her animal companion while they fight side-by-side.
Druids. Freakishly awesome. nuff said. And people want to add CHEESE to that? Wow, why not just play Thor, the God of Thunder?
explain orangutans spear fishing then
www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-...
They may not be true opposable thumbs but you could use a spear or axe in a crude manner, and easily swing a slick/club, using a staff as just a beating tool -the -8 is WAY overboard.
I'm not talking fancy ripostes with a rapier, I'm talking take spear and stab, adjusting with the arm for motion.
My dm gave a -3 for the combat that way.
I also never min/maxed like you have. Maybe you'd be afraid of a player doing that instead of playing for flavor vs sheer capability.
As I said, people like the cheese.
Devil, you and your DM are not taking into account the 3.5 RAW about combat itself, which is that combat is a dance between the combatants and they stab, thrust, parry and riposte several times in the round, and the to hit roll is an example of taking a momentary opportunity to get past the defenses of your opponent. Whether you are weilding a club, a rapier or a spiked chain, the fundamental concept is the same, you are whirling your weapon around and it is smashing into your opponent's weapon, shield and armor multiple times.
As I have said, people enjoy the cheese of taking an already vastly overpowered class and adding silly things to it like "my wildshape is an ape, I can swordfight just like a human."
I just don't agree with stuff like that. Play how you like, but if I'm the DM, sword-wielding gorillas simply aren't going to be allowed.
If brass wants the cheese of a orangutan swinging a sword or to simply not read what other people type, he can keep that cheese.
As he said he likes cheese.
Devil, keep to crude attacks, dont parry and the like and you should be fine, especially if your dm agrees.
Not everyone is intolerant of people having fun. I just dont like minmaxing. If theres flavor behind it and you're doing it for that, and your dm allows it by all means, enjoy, its not cheese.
Gorillas and monkeys don't have opposable thumbs and as such could not effectively manipulate a weapon with the dexterity necessary to be effective.
And yet the Monkey Grip feat exists.
Gorillas and monkeys don't have opposable thumbs and as such could not effectively manipulate a weapon with the dexterity necessary to be effective.
And yet the Monkey Grip feat exists.
So do "monkey grip" pliers, but I don't see monkeys carrying knives in the real world either.
Keep your cheese folks, I mean druids certainly need all the help they can get to be relevant.
Sheeesh...
Gorillas and monkeys don't have opposable thumbs and as such could not effectively manipulate a weapon with the dexterity necessary to be effective.
And yet the Monkey Grip feat exists.
So do "monkey grip" pliers, but I don't see monkeys carrying knives in the real world either.
Keep your cheese folks, I mean druids certainly need all the help they can get to be relevant.
Sheeesh...
You seem to be forgetting that D&D is a fantasy game, and not the real world.
If its fun do it.
BTW Monkey grip is referring to monkeys holding objects in an odd way, with their thumbs not the same 'grade' of opposable thumb as us.
Gorillas and monkeys don't have opposable thumbs and as such could not effectively manipulate a weapon with the dexterity necessary to be effective.
And yet the Monkey Grip feat exists.
So do "monkey grip" pliers, but I don't see monkeys carrying knives in the real world either.
Keep your cheese folks, I mean druids certainly need all the help they can get to be relevant.
Sheeesh...
You seem to be forgetting that D&D is a fantasy game, and not the real world.
Then make up a fantasy ape with opposable thumbs. That's what all the old optimized druids used to do to avoid this issue. I can't remember the ape, but it was in some splat book and was specifically created to cheese up druid builds.
*Quick edit*
Druids aren't the second most powerful class, they're the first.
...Why would you even want to use weapons when you're shifted, don't you end up doing less damage/getting less attacks?
*Quick edit*
Druids aren't the second most powerful class, they're the first.
It's because the temptation is so great. Druids are an awesome class and they are great fun too. You can do anything, sometimes you can do two or more things at once. But there's this annoying thing about wildshaping, you can't talk and you can't use weapons. Eventually that gnaws at you and you think "if I could only use weapons and talk, I could stay in wild shape forever and keep my cha, int and wis attributes and swap out for awesome str, dex and con attributes! What's not to like?"
So suddenly you are arguing with your DM that gorillas can use swords. Why? Because it's so freaking COOL!
And it is, really. But it's cheesy.
LOL, I'm not amused that you are all playing cheesy druids, I'm amused that you pretend they aren't cheesy.
Just because you don't like or disagree with something, doesn't mean it's "cheese." ;)
Then make up a fantasy ape with opposable thumbs. That's what all the old optimized druids used to do to avoid this issue. I can't remember the ape, but it was in some splat book and was specifically created to cheese up druid builds.
Why create a "fantasy ape" when an existing one would work just fine?
Without using my thumb, I can pick up a big stick(club) and whack/hit something with it just fine, or pick up a knife(dagger) and chop/stab something with it just fine. So it would be reasonable to believe that an ape/monkey could do the same thing.
...Why would you even want to use weapons when you're shifted, don't you end up doing less damage/getting less attacks?
*Quick edit*
Druids aren't the second most powerful class, they're the first.
It's because the temptation is so great. Druids are an awesome class and they are great fun too. You can do anything, sometimes you can do two or more things at once. But there's this annoying thing about wildshaping, you can't talk and you can't use weapons. Eventually that gnaws at you and you think "if I could only use weapons and talk, I could stay in wild shape forever and keep my cha, int and wis attributes and swap out for awesome str, dex and con attributes! What's not to like?"
So suddenly you are arguing with your DM that gorillas can use swords. Why? Because it's so freaking COOL!
And it is, really. But it's cheesy.
Ah, I was taking "cheesy" to mean something OP/broken...while I'd personally be against it in my campaigns *shrugs* I'd probably let it happen just because it weakens the druid a bit which, IMO is a good thing.
They just don't have the brain capacity to use tools as well as humans. A druid wild-shaped into a gorilla keeps its brain so should be able to use weapons.
Heres a good one: Gorillas dont have opposable thumbs, you cant trust wikipedia.
how about trusting these:
www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/apes/...
www3.nsta.org/main/news/stories/science_... (oh look you're disagreeing with the National Science Teachers Association, what do they know anyway?)
www.primates.com/faq/index.html#23
National geographic? pfft worthless! www.nationalgeographic.com/xpeditions/le... On a side note- this one mentions Jane Gooddall finding out orangutans DID make and use tools. We can also note crows use tools. ( www.sciencemag.org/feature/data/crow/ )
And you're STILL arguing a primate can't grap a spear, knife, club or crude weapon and make crude attacks without a -8 penalty. Remember you wanted to bring science into it, go argue with national geographic.
Gorillas and monkeys do have opposable thumbs. www.flickr.com/photos/14548434@N00/33318... It is one of the traits that makes them primates (like humans).
They just don't have the brain capacity to use tools as well as humans. A druid wild-shaped into a gorilla keeps its brain so should be able to use weapons.
Read the whole thread. Human thumbs are mechanically different, as I posted earlier. The difference is precisely what allows human hands to firmly grasp and manipulate tools. "Opposable thumb" is a term that has different meanings. The human thumb is unique. Again, just because you don't like it doesn't make it untrue.
I keep telling you, go ahead and have your sword-wielding gorillas if you want them. I don't care. I just think it's hilarious that you think it's not cheesy. That's all.
Hey, quick question, do your sword-wielding gorilla's talk too?
I keep telling you, go ahead and have your sword-wielding gorillas if you want them. I don't care. I just think it's hilarious that you think it's not cheesy. That's all.
So playing the game differently from the way you perfer to play it is "hilarious" and "cheesy"....?
You seem to be forgetting that there is no real "right" or "wrong" way to play D&D. If a group is having fun, they're doing it right.
I keep telling you, go ahead and have your sword-wielding gorillas if you want them. I don't care. I just think it's hilarious that you think it's not cheesy. That's all.
So playing the game differently from the way you perfer to play it is "hilarious" and "cheesy"....?
You seem to be forgetting that there is no real "right" or "wrong" way to play D&D. If a group is having fun, they're doing it right.
Don't forget this is a person whos saying national geographic and the national science teachers association are wrong. He can have his misplaced laughs, the real comedy is him.
Orangutans make and use tools. Gorillas can pick a spear nd make thrusts, or grasp a club and swing. To quote you: Just because you don't like it doesn't make it untrue.
I keep telling you, go ahead and have your sword-wielding gorillas if you want them. I don't care. I just think it's hilarious that you think it's not cheesy. That's all.
So playing the game differently from the way you perfer to play it is "hilarious" and "cheesy"....?
You seem to be forgetting that there is no real "right" or "wrong" way to play D&D. If a group is having fun, they're doing it right.
Don't forget this is a person whos saying national geographic and the national science teachers association are wrong. He can have his misplaced laughs, the real comedy is him.
Orangutans make and use tools. Gorillas can pick a spear nd make thrusts, or grasp a club and swing. To quote you: Just because you don't like it doesn't make it untrue.
I think he means "cheesy" in the sense that old action movies from the 80's are cheesy...Commando being the first example off the top of my head. It's not really a matter of can they grip it or not...it's just think what first comes to mind when you hear D&D and "sword wielding gorilla" it's something that just seems well...cartoonish, all I can really imagine is a gorilla with an eyepatch, bandanna, and two flaming swords yelling out some gorilla battle cry while chasing down a band of terrified goblins. Basically, a more badass version of Donkey Kong.
Now, cheesy isn't necessarily bad...again using my previous example of Commando, that movie is cheesy as hell but I love it...which is why it works. Yeah, they could do a more serious version of it, and that might be good too...but for different reasons. More often then not cheesy = fun...but there are lots of people who prefer a more "serious" setting/mood for D&D...speaking personally, I'd have a very hard time allowing this because, IMO it sets more of a...comedic mood then anything else. But, everyone has different views and I'm sure there are people who just consider it practical, I'm just not one of those people.
I might argue about a dolphin playing ball (because dolphins bounce jellyfish in the wild).
It also depends on the players. There are those who play for fun, and flavor. And others who minmax everything out. Obviously a minmaxxer shoudn't have things handed to him on a platter- but the flavor player, if its justified by the roleplay, should be allowed.
...Why would you even want to use weapons when you're shifted, don't you end up doing less damage/getting less attacks?
*Quick edit*
Druids aren't the second most powerful class, they're the first.
Eh, druids are about 4th or 5th in the absolute scale if you're comparing to all 3.5e material. Druids can get pretty broken, but a properly cheesed out Artificer or Archivist can put him to absolute shame. And wizards are easily superior to druids, even with just core but when you add splats wizards gained even more power than druids did from them, typically. A properly build full splats druid is on the power level of a divine metamagic cleric, imo, but below a batman wizard and far below an optimized archivist or artificer.
As for apes wielding weapons, aren't there monsters that actually do that? Legendary apes, I think? I mean, it's really not that hard to conceptualize. I would allow it with no penalty if you had specially tailored a weapon to be held by an ape (as in, wood shaped it to be gripped by one) and with mild penalty if it was merely a simple weapon.
...Why would you even want to use weapons when you're shifted, don't you end up doing less damage/getting less attacks?
*Quick edit*
Druids aren't the second most powerful class, they're the first.
Eh, druids are about 4th or 5th in the absolute scale if you're comparing to all 3.5e material. Druids can get pretty broken, but a properly cheesed out Artificer or Archivist can put him to absolute shame. And wizards are easily superior to druids, even with just core but when you add splats wizards gained even more power than druids did from them, typically. A properly build full splats druid is on the power level of a divine metamagic cleric, imo, but below a batman wizard and far below an optimized archivist or artificer.
As for apes wielding weapons, aren't there monsters that actually do that? Legendary apes, I think? I mean, it's really not that hard to conceptualize. I would allow it with no penalty if you had specially tailored a weapon to be held by an ape (as in, wood shaped it to be gripped by one) and with mild penalty if it was merely a simple weapon.
A properly cheesed out druid is > any other class.
...and it can do it at level 3 (or possibly 5, can't remember Pun-Pun off the top of my head)
If we're talking batman prepared, wizards fall second to druid. Even without using something incredibly game breaking like Pun Pun they're just...insanely powerful, and they don't even require that much to really break them.
...Why would you even want to use weapons when you're shifted, don't you end up doing less damage/getting less attacks?
*Quick edit*
Druids aren't the second most powerful class, they're the first.
Eh, druids are about 4th or 5th in the absolute scale if you're comparing to all 3.5e material. Druids can get pretty broken, but a properly cheesed out Artificer or Archivist can put him to absolute shame. And wizards are easily superior to druids, even with just core but when you add splats wizards gained even more power than druids did from them, typically. A properly build full splats druid is on the power level of a divine metamagic cleric, imo, but below a batman wizard and far below an optimized archivist or artificer.
As for apes wielding weapons, aren't there monsters that actually do that? Legendary apes, I think? I mean, it's really not that hard to conceptualize. I would allow it with no penalty if you had specially tailored a weapon to be held by an ape (as in, wood shaped it to be gripped by one) and with mild penalty if it was merely a simple weapon.
A properly cheesed out druid is > any other class.
...and it can do it at level 3 (or possibly 5, can't remember Pun-Pun off the top of my head)
If we're talking batman prepared, wizards fall second to druid. Even without using something incredibly game breaking like Pun Pun they're just...insanely powerful, and they don't even require that much to really break them.
A lot of problems:
1. The final Pun-Pun build does not actually have any levels in druid. One level Divine Minion, one level Wizard, 3 levels Master of Many Forms, and then he goes infinite.
2. Any character than can shapechange into a 14 HD lizard with the Assume Supernatural Ability feat could do the Pun-Pun trick. Druids could definitely do that, but so could any spellcaster, whether it's arcane, divine, or psionic. The only reason Wild Shape was used instead of typical spells was because the broken as snot intended to be NPC only template Divine Minion granted the ability to wild shape as a 10th level druid with just one level. It's a statement to Divine Minion's overpoweredness, not wild shape's overpoweredness. If Divine Minion didn't exist, the final build probably would have been a dragonwrought loredrake kobold sorcerer with artifically jacked up caster level. (Probably.)
3. The Pun-Pun trick wasn't the only way to make an infinitely power omnipotent ur-god of a character. The Omnicifer and Tequila Ghoya's build (forget it's exact name) both can achieve that feat, and the Omnificer can actually do it faster than Pun Pun can. There are probably several other builds, too.
4. Finally, there's the theoretical optimization and there's practical optimization. Pun-Pun and other omnipotent characters are awesome and amazing works of theoretical optimization, but they'd never be allowed into a game. Even the most avant-garde DM who's willing to allow anything would stop to Rule 0 such a character out because that character is literally more powerful than the entire universe combined. No story can include something that big. No threat can ever match it. The entire pantheon of the gods could band together and try to kill that character and wouldn't be able to scratch him. So while in the realms of optimization Pun-Pun and friends are amazing works of art, for the purpose of the actual game there's no point in really discussing them.
We have to look at the game from the lense of practical optimization, and through that lense druids are obscenely good, but they're easily worse than a practically optimized wizard who in turn is easily worse than a practically optimized archivist or artificer. A practically optimized druid is on par with a practically optimized cleric. I agree with your assertion that druids take less work to optimize than wizards, but they also reach lesser heights and don't have quite as much cheese potential.
1. The final Pun-Pun build does not actually have any levels in druid. One level Divine Minion, one level Wizard, 3 levels Master of Many Forms, and then he goes infinite.
You aren't wrong on anything but this.
Pun-Pun at Level 1
Pun-Pun, Ardent 1, 1 flaw (Needs to be G aligned)
4 ranks in Knowledge (religion) Psicrystal Affinity (Sage) (+3) Call to Mind (+4) 20 Intelligence (17 base + 3 from venerable)... (+5) Mantle Power: Knowledge (+5) Mantle Power: Fate (+1) Psicrystal: Aid Another (+2)
4+3+4+5+5+1+2 = 24. (OR ANY OTHER METHOD TO GET A +24 KNOWLEDGE RELIGION CHECK AT LEVEL 1)
1. Makes the DC 25 knowledge check (even on a natural 1, since natural 1s aren't failures), learning about Pazazu.
2. Say Pazazu's name 3 times, he grants a wish in exchange for an alignment shift, ask for a ring of 3 wishes.
3. Retrain Skill Focus to Assume Supernatural Ability. The premise is that, Wish allows you to mimic any spell 8th or lower, and you can mimic Polymorph. Therefore, you've the ability to assume a new form magically.
4. Wish > Polymorph Any Object: Psicrystal into a viper.
5. Wish > Polymorph yourself into a sarrukh. Grant Manipulate Form to your psicrystal...
6. Proceed with Pun-Pun.
1. The final Pun-Pun build does not actually have any levels in druid. One level Divine Minion, one level Wizard, 3 levels Master of Many Forms, and then he goes infinite.You aren't wrong on anything but this.
Pun-Pun at Level 1
Pun-Pun, Ardent 1, 1 flaw (Needs to be G aligned)
4 ranks in Knowledge (religion) Psicrystal Affinity (Sage) (+3) Call to Mind (+4) 20 Intelligence (17 base + 3 from venerable)... (+5) Mantle Power: Knowledge (+5) Mantle Power: Fate (+1) Psicrystal: Aid Another (+2)
4+3+4+5+5+1+2 = 24. (OR ANY OTHER METHOD TO GET A +24 KNOWLEDGE RELIGION CHECK AT LEVEL 1)
1. Makes the DC 25 knowledge check (even on a natural 1, since natural 1s aren't failures), learning about Pazazu.
2. Say Pazazu's name 3 times, he grants a wish in exchange for an alignment shift, ask for a ring of 3 wishes.
3. Retrain Skill Focus to Assume Supernatural Ability. The premise is that, Wish allows you to mimic any spell 8th or lower, and you can mimic Polymorph. Therefore, you've the ability to assume a new form magically.
4. Wish > Polymorph Any Object: Psicrystal into a viper.
5. Wish > Polymorph yourself into a sarrukh. Grant Manipulate Form to your psicrystal...
6. Proceed with Pun-Pun.
While I am not aware of this exact example, I am perfectly aware that that isn't a character build. You're not doing this of your own power, you're relying entirely on a DM controlled NPC to do something for you that, even if some book explicitly states he will always do, you can't know that the DM will always do it. Finally, mechanically, I don't see the wish for a ring of three wishes thing. That's completely outside of the line of what wish can do. I don't see what's stopping Pazuzu from giving you a Ring of Three Wishes with 0 charges left -- that's what I'd do if I were a chaotic evil ur-demon especially given that your alignment changes based off me fulfilling your wish, not you being happy with the wish.
All things said and done, that's not a build, that's a knowledge check for infinite power. And even if that was the final form of Pun Pun, it still doesn't have any levels in druid!
While I am not aware of this exact example, I am perfectly aware that that isn't a character build. You're not doing this of your own power, you're relying entirely on a DM controlled NPC to do something for you that, even if some book explicitly states he will always do, you can't know that the DM will always do it. Finally, mechanically, I don't see the wish for a ring of three wishes thing. That's completely outside of the line of what wish can do. I don't see what's stopping Pazuzu from giving you a Ring of Three Wishes with 0 charges left -- that's what I'd do if I were a chaotic evil ur-demon especially given that your alignment changes based off me fulfilling your wish, not you being happy with the wish.
All things said and done, that's not a build, that's a knowledge check for infinite power. And even if that was the final form of Pun Pun, it still doesn't have any levels in druid!
Not the thread for Punpun debate, but if you want PM me and we can do it.
That said, I do think "DM fiat" is a pretty poor excuse for why something like punpun won't work in a game.
Underlined is still important to note for the thread itself.
It's like optimizing a build around riding a dire pony, except your only way to get the dire pony is to demand someone give it to you. At that point, your build isn't complete, because you can't guarantee that anyone is going to give you said dire pony.
What book is this ability called "Wilding Clasp" in.
I believe it was in the splatbook Masters of the Wild, along with the horrid Miasma spell and the Legendary Ape that was discussed in the beginning of the thread (the one that could use swords, but couldn't play the piano worth a damn).
-DC