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| #1thesnowmanMay 30, 2012 0:22:46 | Hello all! Incoming wall of text, so skip to the bottom for the TL:DR version. So, I am in a bit of a conundrum for my wizard in a current game I'm playing. First of all, I'm not entireley sure where to pose this question. The Optimisation board doesn't seem right as I'm not optimising, the 4e character development forum doesn't seem right as this is 3.5 - so I figure asking fellow players would be the best bet! In short though, I'm planning on having my neutral human wizard become either a Vampire or a Lich...but I can't decide which, nor have I brought this up to the party at large yet. (though I have ran it past the DM and he's cool with either scenario) Either fits with character development as she's a 28-year-old Countess whose mind has already been ingratiated with a sense of social hierachy and the necessity of preserving her own authority and power to the extent that she told the unofficial party leader that she works with him, but she'll never work for him (though she's not a jerk - another player has said that she's the Warren Buffet of nobles) At the moment I'm leaning towards Vampire, then later on Vampire Lord. (I was thinking of accomplishing this via the spell Genesis and adjusting the time to allow a hundred years to go past on her own plane while only a week has gone past for the party, as not to fudge things up) My reservation is that I'm the party wizard and we're currently mid-to-high levels (lvl 12). This means I'm commonly stealing the spotlight in combats, and there have already been mutterings from another player about feeling useless because I AoE debuff/kill just about everything we encounter in a few rounds. Personally I think I'm just doing my job as the party wizard to ensure that everyone survives - our encounters can be tough to the point that we would've had two party deaths in one encounter if the DM hadn't shown mercy, so there's little room for ego and personal glory in my opinion. I'm bringing this up because I think that if I were to then go and add a Vampire template or a Lich template onto the character, the other players would feel even more dwarfed than some might already be. We've got two other casters in the group but one doesn't do much except heal and restore, while the other doesn't really use his spells to any particular degree of usefulness. Now I don't want to overshadow anyone (though I know I already am by virtue of my class), and so far we're all still having a lot of fun and enjoying the game - so please don't think that a combined groan is emitted from the other players when my initiative turn comes up and the encounter is half-over. TL:DR: So, I guess this comes down to two questions that I have: a) Is taking on either of these templates in the future (I'm thinking around lvl 14-15, maybe 16 so I'll be an archmage lich or vampire) fair on my fellow players? Especially if later I then take their next step up in the form of Demilich or Vampire Lord? I don't want to be a selfish a-hole, but at the same time I don't want to give up all my fun, future plans for a character I'm enjoying playing. Given that taking either template will be a huge power boost for what is already the most powerful member of the party, what ways can I do this without making the other players feel like just a vehicle-delivery device for the wizard? b) If you were a high lvl (15ish) wizard, which would you rather be - a vampire or a lich? Why? What pro's and con's would either template give you, the party wizard? Assume that as a vampire you have free will and are not a slave to your creator (maybe he didn't have the spare HD space to accompany you), and that your alignment stays the same or to a degree of being playable within a party. (such as Lawful evil so you're loyal to your party-mates for example) |
| #2LangrisheMay 30, 2012 18:37:45 | Look up the Fang & Fury: A Guidebook to Vampires by Green Ronin, I believe they also have A Guidebook to Liches aswell. I recall the Vampire book is for 3.5 and the Lich book might only be for 3.0 but they should answer all your questions. www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/9/9747.phtml - Review of the Vampire Guide. "I'm not willing to read your wall of text so here is a book for you to read." - ![]() Hope that helps. |
| #3FireclaveMay 30, 2012 22:48:17 | a) Is taking on either of these templates in the future (I'm thinking around lvl 14-15, maybe 16 so I'll be an archmage lich or vampire) fair on my fellow players? Especially if later I then take their next step up in the form of Demilich or Vampire Lord? I don't want to be a selfish a-hole, but at the same time I don't want to give up all my fun, future plans for a character I'm enjoying playing. Given that taking either template will be a huge power boost for what is already the most powerful member of the party, what ways can I do this without making the other players feel like just a vehicle-delivery device for the wizard? It's hard to tell how these templates will affect you and your party, but you'll probably be nerfing yourself. First, keep in mind LA. Their basically levels that net you absolutely zero benefit (not even HP, bab, or save progression). Vampires have an +8 LA. That basically means you that you are treated as 8 levels higher for the purpose of calculating XP. For example, when your party is level 20, your vampire character would still be level 12. Obviously, that's an issue. The lich's LA is only +4, but that's still very significant. In either case, you'll probably be nerfing yourself overall, but you'll have a slew of strange abilities that can make planning encounters (more) difficult and unpredictable. And you'll become nigh unkillable, which could make your fellow players envious to say the least. That said, the 3e's LA system is not very consistant. Some LAs are too high, some too low, some lose relavance over the course of gaining levels, and casters are all over the place in general. If you're already showing up your fellow PCs now, adding high LA templates are just going to complicate things. Next, templates that don't feature an LA adjustment are techically not even intended for PC use at all. That means that both the Vampire Lord and Demilich are never suppose to be in PC hands. And its obvious to see why. Personally I would suggest not to bother going this route if you're going to stick to official material. Going by the review, Langrishe's link sounds like it has better balanced material to achieve the effect your looking for. b) If you were a high lvl (15ish) wizard, which would you rather be - a vampire or a lich? Why? What pro's and con's would either template give you, the party wizard? Assume that as a vampire you have free will and are not a slave to your creator (maybe he didn't have the spare HD space to accompany you), and that your alignment stays the same or to a degree of being playable within a party. (such as Lawful evil so you're loyal to your party-mates for example) Personally? Neither. I prefer having control over my immortality, not being slaved to it. But that's just me. |
| #4KruskJun 02, 2012 15:44:36 | Optiumization wise, both are rarely worth it. The only time either one might be is if you can apply it mid game. Then they are broken. (not overpowered/underpowered. unfunctioning) You are ECL 15ish. Being able to apply a +XLA template mid game means that while you become ECL 23 as a vampire, or 19 as a lich. The rest of your party is still ECL 15. So you never level again this campaign, and get them all up front. The rest of your party is way behind you and may eventually catch up. Realistically they probably won't because games don't tend to last that long. In general a lich is easier to deal with, because there are so many inconsistant rules about vampires people (other players) will try to bring in and expect you to know outside the ones in the MM. A vampire has that sexy european aloof stuff going on, whereas a lich is a rotting corpse guy. That could play into the choice and direction you plan on going. One is +4 LA and one is +8LA. That should also play into it. Are you OK leveling once ever in a few months, or do you prefer to never level again ever? |
| #5sallaJun 02, 2012 15:52:00 | Whatever 'benefits' you get from those templates in no way compensates for the loss of spell levels. |
| #6Sir-ZalphonJun 02, 2012 19:03:36 | This probably sounds like I'm mocking you (but I'm not), but have you thought about just doing it as a way of retiring him? When the campaign comes to a conclusion, that can be his grand finale. "When the adventurers split apart, they all went their own ways. He went a way far different than any of the others. Choosing to forever devote himself to the study of magic, he completed the ritual to transform himself into a lich. After that, he sealed himself away from the world so that he would be uninterrupted. Only time will tell if he ever returns again and if he returns a hero or a villain..." It's just an idea, but I think a Lich is more of a Character Retirement thing than a play-thing. A vampire is too strong to really be adequate for playing as well. However, those are just my views and they should be taken with a grain of salt. |
| #7KruskJun 03, 2012 10:36:15 | Whatever 'benefits' you get from those templates in no way compensates for the loss of spell levels. It totally does if the campaign isn't going above 15th level, or only plans to continue for another 2 or 3 sessions. If those are true its basically free powers now, for no penalty later. |
| #8thesnowmanJun 04, 2012 23:28:52 | Hmmm, the general consensus seems to be not to go with either option, and I'm starting to warm to that idea. The DM said he plans to take the campaign into epic levels (we started off at lvl 3), so if I went with either Lich or vampire it'd essentially be a free set of powers at the cost of leveling much slower...and throws harder enemies at my party members (two of whom were almost killed recently by four enhanced mummies) via a higher average party level. Thanks to everyone for the replies. I think I'll shelve both ideas and save my party both the mechanic and In-Game burden of carrying around a nexus of negative energy with them. Thanks all |