I'm planning on running a beguiler who specializes in social manipulation. He has the skills and the spells to pull it off, but I was wondering exactly how it would work.
If my beguiler reaches into his spellpouch and pulls out his guano and a small brass screw (or whatever other weird little spell components he might need) and starts waving his hands around and speaking magic words, people might start suspecting something.
I know most spell component problems can be solved by eschew materials, but what about the verbal and somatic components? Any way to get rid of these tell-tale signs without using meta-magic?
Could a character use a sleight of hand check to disguise the somatic component as ordinary gestures?
If I cast charm person normally and it succeeds does the person remember I went all presto the magician before he suddenly and inexplicably started loving me?
What all do I need to know in order to succeed at social manipulation via magic?
there is a meta magic feat that lets you forget the material components... It has no penalties.
If you are talking about eschew materials, I already referenced that and plan on taking it.
Thanks for the heads up, though.Does anybody know what book the DCs for disguising somatic and verbal components are? I already scoured the srd, so I'm guessing its not in there. Complete Scoundrel maybe? (I hope not, one of the few books I don't have.
)I know most spell component problems can be solved by eschew materials, but what about the verbal and somatic components? Any way to get rid of these tell-tale signs without using meta-magic?
there is a meta magic feat that lets you forget the material components... It has no penalties.
You and I are on the same page.
You and I are on the same page.
I'm not.
Have I missed something important?For the record, I mean getting past the verbal and somatic spells components without meta-magic. I know the best (maybe only?) way to get past the material component is eschew materials (although I wasn't under the impression it was meta-magic), and since it has no penalty I have no problem with using it.
EDIT: I also plan on picking up some gloves of holding when I can spare the cash for those costly material components not covered by eschew materials. Plus it can't hurt my sneak-theiving.
Although, I didn't really contribute anything useful, so in a way I'm as guilty as Doomsought.
I'd talk to the DM and ask him if it's indeed possible to disguise spell casting, or if the only people who would ever fall for it are people who have never seen spell casting in action. I mean, they do attempt to make it pretty clear that you have to make specific gestures and noises and have specific materials when you cast spells, and it's all or nothing; unless you can work those gestures exactly into your wild hand-waving fake Italian accent act, you run the risk of ruining the spell or tipping off your audience. As a player, I'd think Bluff check -20 vs Sense Motive or Spellcraft (whichever is higher) might be fair. As a DM though, I'd start designing spellcasters with really high Bluff skills and cackling. . . so it may not necessarily be in your best interest.
Oh no, it wasn't you. Believe me.
Although, I didn't really contribute anything useful, so in a way I'm as guilty as Doomsought.
I'd talk to the DM and ask him if it's indeed possible to disguise spell casting, or if the only people who would ever fall for it are people who have never seen spell casting in action. I mean, they do attempt to make it pretty clear that you have to make specific gestures and noises and have specific materials when you cast spells, and it's all or nothing; unless you can work those gestures exactly into your wild hand-waving fake Italian accent act, you run the risk of ruining the spell or tipping off your audience. As a player, I'd think Bluff check -20 vs Sense Motive or Spellcraft (whichever is higher) might be fair. As a DM though, I'd start designing spellcasters with really high Bluff skills and cackling. . . so it may not necessarily be in your best interest.
Well, we are both pretty new to D&D, so it's unlikely he knows how/if spells can be dsiguised. If there is not rule in any of the books, I'll likely just have to rely on eschew materials and still/silent spell (which will limit which spells I can cast covertly quite a bit, but thems the breaks.
) If there is a rule and it is not broken, there shouldn't be any problem with both PCs and NPCs using it... Right?EDIT: I hope it is a bluff check. Glibness FTW. :D Of course, I have no interest in breaking anyones game just because I have a cool character idea. If it makes things to easy, and the DM can't find an interesting way to bring it back into balance, I am willing/able to police myself and keep the hijinks to a minimum.
There is a skill trick in complete scoundrel called Conceal Spellcasting that lets you fool onlookers. You might have to declare what you're trying to make your hand motions look like but I think it fits your needs perfectly.
there is a meta magic feat that lets you forget the material components... It has no penalties.
Eschew materials is not a metamagic feat.
complete scoundrel is posibly one of the best books in the complete series, worth picking it up before your game starts.
Eschew materials is not a metamagic feat.
It was at one point in time. Good thing it got revised too.
I'm helping!!!!
There is a skill trick in complete scoundrel called Conceal Spellcasting that lets you fool onlookers. You might have to declare what you're trying to make your hand motions look like but I think it fits your needs perfectly.
Thanks, I just called a friend of mine and asked him to give me the stats on it (he has CS).
So, whats the verdict? Is this skill trick balanced?
False Theurgy has no skill check associated with it. You simply pick the spell you want it to look like and *poof* it looks like it. Powerful stuff, really.
Conceal Spellcasting requires a Sleight of Hand Check. If successful, the opposition can't attempt to counter the spell - and in fact can't even make an attack of opportunity against you! Very powerful stuff ... but only once per encounter means you'd best save it until you truly need it.
I use both of these with a 6th Level Beguiler of mine. They're wonderful, and well worth the 4 skill points.
By and large, skill tricks are balanced. Barring levels in one of the Trickster prestige classes (Magical Trickster would result in the smallest loss of caster levels), you can only use a given skill trick once per encounter.
False Theurgy has no skill check associated with it. You simply pick the spell you want it to look like and *poof* it looks like it. Powerful stuff, really.
Conceal Spellcasting requires a Sleight of Hand Check. If successful, the opposition can't attempt to counter the spell - and in fact can't even make an attack of opportunity against you! Very powerful stuff ... but only once per encounter means you'd best save it until you truly need it.
I use both of these with a 6th Level Beguiler of mine. They're wonderful, and well worth the 4 skill points.
Excellent, thanks for weighing in.
I'd love to hear what everyone else thinks about this skill trick. I also want to talk about the general strategy of a social manipulator. I plan on staying in disguise most of the time, so if the mob forms with pitchforks and torches I can just take of the disguise and join the crowd. I was thinking about picking up a hat of disguise to help with this, but I'm not sure if that is entirely needed.
Does anybody have any interesting strategies, tips, or stories about being a social manipulator, and generally trying to get one over on everyone (except other PCs of course. I have heard horror stories about games deginerating once one PC trys to take advantage of other PCs).
Another thing to realize is that the target of a charm spell is not aware that they are under the influence of the spell, so a wizard could be face to face with them and cast this spell without them realizing it. The wizard makes a hand movement and utters some magical words and wham! they are charmed and don't notice it.
It is only if they make their saving throw that they might notice, for example if you were charming them and the spell failed they would sense that a hostile force or a tingle but wouldn't know the nature of what wwas being used or from whom, except that you just waved your hand and said some strange words. So only if they make their saves will you have to worry.
But ideally what your sorceror would do is charm them before approaching. For example, you want to charm someone in a tavern, you would cast charm from the other end of the room, and if it succeeded you would then approach him, he doesn't see you casting.
Another method is to work as a team (such as what con men do) lets say you are wanting to charm the target who is right there in front of you, however you don't want him or his friend to notice you casting, well another member of your party could be present and they would distract them. Either by talking and getting their attention or otherwise distracting them so you can cast the spell unnoticed when they look away.
Consider that Dominate is 100ft+10ft/level, this is something a Wizard can do at a considerable distance and the intended target might never even see or meet his dominator who can then control him telepathicly from anywhere on the same plane.
Look at Suggestion, the examples given are convincing a person that a pool of acid is actually pure water and a quick dip would be refreshing, or urging a Red Dragon to stop attacking the party and to share a different treasure together. In both cases knowing that a spell was used against them would cause them to be suspicious, since the spell depends on the suggeston being worded to sound reasonable knowing it is a spell makes the suggested activity less reasonable. So obviously as is the case with Charm and Suggestion these spells can be easily cast in front of a target without them being aware that a spell is being cast upon them.
In short, to suggest a way of using these spells effectively, i would recomend the least possible contact with the intended targets. For example, if you need to get past a guard rather then walk up and talk to them, cast Charm and then convince them to let you past, instead you cast Charm from across the street, walk up and say something out loud to someone else (not the guard in question) "Geeze that bar across the street is rowdy, there is always a fight going on in there, Someone really should get in there and put a stop to it" The guard who suddenly sees you as a trusted friend and ally decides to leave his post and go put a stop to the bar fights.
The point being how subtle you are. You cast the spell from a distance and unnoticed, you didn't really interact with the guard, who just overheard a good citizen and took his own initiative.
If you're a beguiler, you should definitely be adding a few skill tricks to your repertoire - they're perfect for getting extra mileage out of the cloaked and surprise casting features...
In particular, Group Fakeout will let you feint against more than one person at a time, and Timely Misdirection would let you feint against someone and deny them attacks of opportunity against you (helpful if you want to cast a touch spell while being threatened).
Invisible Spell, Cityscape. Not as useful to you, perhaps, but an invisible fireball would be fun. No level adjustment either, I think.
There's another feat from Cityscape that might be helpful, but I can't recall.
Still Spell/Eschew Materials, obviously.
If range is an issue, Enlarge Spell is a godsend.
So depending on your race, build, and starting level, I suggest the following feats:
- Eschew Materials. Because getting rid of material components is worth the feat!
- Enlarge Spell. Doubles the range of every spell you cast, for +1 Spell Level and a full-round casting time. (Woo spontaneous casters!) Many Beguiler spells (too many?) have Short range.
- Spell Focus (Illusion) and/or Spell Focus (Enchantment), because your Save DCs can never be too high.
- Greater Spell Focus (Illusion) and/or Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment), because your Save DCs really can never be too high.
- Improved Initiative, because Cloaked Casting gives you a DC boost vs flat-footed opponents.
I also recommend picking Distract Assailant (Complete Adventurer, p146) as your Level 3 Advanced Learning choice. It's a Swift spell that makes the target flat-footed for 1 round. It synergizes almost too well with Cloaked Casting. :D