Me: Halfling Assassin
Guy 1: Nuzleaf Spellsword
Guy 2: Human Monk
Guy 3: Dragonborn Warlord
Girl: Vampire Wizard
As you can see, Guy 1 chose to be a pokemon, which can be seen here. I told him he couldn't choose that so he decided to be a Nightmare (Disgaea), which can be seen here. I told him that he could not be a Nightmare so he said that he quit. I told the DM and he got mad and said that I couldn't do that because he's just homebrewing. I said that homebrews from the forums are allowed but no making homebrews but then he asked how can someone homebrew without making their own stuff. Any thoughts?
I told the DM
So, you aren't the DM, just another player?
Any thoughts?
You have absolutely, positively ZERO business telling another player what he can or cannot play unless you're the DM. Apologize to that player, apologize to the other players, apologize to the DM.
As you can see, Guy 1 chose to be a pokemon
Ummmmmm... what?
I'm thinking if someone quits if they can't play as a pokemon in D&D, then the rest of the group might be better off.
Well, personally I think you are kind of in the wrong here because while he couldn't actually make a "nuzleaf" or "nightmare" mechanicly it doesn't mean that he shouldn't have been able to reflavor a gnome as a nuzleaf or reflavor a shade as a nightmare. The flavor text was meant to be augmented and the wizards team even made an article about how to reflavor things such things as race and class.
I will +1 to this and what Salla said: if you aren't the DM, you shouldn't be telling other players what they can and can't do.
However, I will admit that Crimsyn has a point.
Salla's right, it's not really a player's job to tell other players what they can and can't play, unless the DM has asked for your help with guiding other players' character creation. There were probably more diplomatic ways that it could have been handled, such as gently steering the player toward a standard PC race and selling him on how cool they can be. And, if it all comes down to it and the DM is willing to work with it, there's not really any reason that an existing an unused PC race couldn't be reflavored into whatever in blazes that poke-thing is that the quitter wanted to play, simply by changing the name and description.
That said... Pokemon? Mercy. I realy don't think you handled the situation right, but I can certainly sympathize with you otherwise. Of course, there's always the possibility that I'm a bit of a stick-in-the-mud about this sort of thing: for aesthetic reasons, I tend to limit my players' PC races to Human, Dwarf, Elf, Halfling, Goblin, and Half-Orc (refuffed into, for examples, Orc, Caliban, or Morlock), and disqualify half-elves, warforged, dragonborn, and any "wacky" non-core PC races. NIMBY, but if your DM is flexible enough to allow something I would think is "goofy" into his campaign, there's really nothing wrong with that, unless you really couldn't stomach being a PC in that sort of campaign (and even I wouldn't go that far.)
I said that homebrews from the forums are allowed but no making homebrews but then he asked how can someone homebrew without making their own stuff. Any thoughts?
Yes, stop telling the DM what game to run.
If it really is that improtant to you that the game world is "core", then try negotiating about the kind of game you'd like to play in. Remember you are one of (I guess now) 5 people around the table, and your personal preferences count for roughly 20% of what happens in the game.
If you all have completely different ideas from the outset about what kind of game this is going to be, then it is hard to get it to work. If you then add to that an aggressive "my way of the highway" attitude, the group is better off without you (they may or may not want to recruit back the pokemon player).
I said that homebrews from the forums are allowed but no making homebrews but then he asked how can someone homebrew without making their own stuff. Any thoughts?
So, because he didn't post it on the forums first, it's not allowed?
What does it matter if he calls his PC race a Nightmare? I had a player who wanted to play a living rock; I had him play a Warforged and called him a living rock.
If YOU were the DM, you could make the decision. But you are not. As it stands, it looks like you've pissed off the DM for driving off a player, which are hard enough to find.
As far as party size goes also, while 4th edition is balance for a 5 person group. I started long before 6 people were "recommended" to sit down and play a game. I have had very successful games ranging from 2 people (me the DM, and one player) upwards of 8 players while I DM, and every whole amount in between. Often due to busy schedules, and general life involvement my normal group of 6 players can be whittled down to as little as two players in any given week. For fairness sake I generally don't play with my current group unless at least two to three players are present, which completely depends on what's going on in the story.
I agree with the above posters. It is no business of any players to dictate what another player does. In fact just to spite the lawful tendencies of following the rules (being chaotic myself) I would have no only allowed the player to be a Nuzleaf Spellsword, I would have sat down and built the race with the PC from the ground up, and not worried about re-flavoring anything.
What matters in D&D is the story and if everyone is having fun then the game is successful in my book. Honestly if you would have been so bothered by the fact that he was playing a pokemon, which in my opinion is as equally far fetched as playing an elf or half-orc or dragonborn in my reality, and if you would have disrupted my game because of it. I would have simply suggested, "Well if that's not the type of game you'd like to play in, then start your own and DM it however you would like." And I swear to all that's holy and unholy in this or any other world, if one of my players ever tried to tell me what I can and can't have in my world and game, homebrew or not, the above suggestion would have turned into a demand, and you would have been bluntly asked to leave my game for good, or until a sincere apology was supplied with the understanding that it would never happen again.
I have also built a lot of homebrew content in fact I have never used a published adventure (Or settings or deities or ....). All of my worlds that I've built over the years have been completely homebrew. Posting a homebrew world to the forum doesn't make it "official." It's all for the fun of the experience. As long as everyone is having fun then I honestly don't care what my players play as, you want to be an alien race no one has ever heard off (this has happened in my games more times than I can count.) Cool let's draw up some racial ideas and see how it goes.
Anyway next time when it comes to other players, try to be more diplomatic, you can't tell a player what they can and can't do. As far as the DM getting upset, I completely agree with that DM's feelings. It's no place of any player to tell a DM what they can and can't have in their game. If the individual player doesn't like something, they are more than welcome to politely bring it to the DM's attention that you do not agree, however it's ultimately up to the DM to decide what goes into their game. If the player continues not to agree, well, that player is free to leave the group at anytime.
I told the DM and he got mad and said that I couldn't do that because he's just homebrewing. I said that homebrews from the forums are allowed but no making homebrews but then he asked how can someone homebrew without making their own stuff. Any thoughts?
You might be confusing reflavoring with homebrewing. Reflavoring is changing the description of something without touching the mechanics of the game. Homebrewing is when you alter existing mechanics or make new ones. It's the difference between giving a car a fresh coat of paint and completely swapping out the engine.
Describing a Wilden as a Nuzleaf would be reflavoring. Creating a whole new Nuzleaf race complete with powers/feats/etc would be homebrewing (and not a very hard task either, since your primary concern seems to be mechanical balance). With that nitpick out of the way...
First, I'm going to have to agree with most of the poster here. You are not in the position to tell a player what he can or cannot play, nor tell the DM what he should or should not allow. D&D is adaptable enough to allow pretty much any kind of character and campaign concept.
That said, your opinion matters too. If this player playing a tengu druid or undead wizard is ruining the enjoyment of the game for you, you should discuss with issue with the group and see if some resolution can be reached.
But personally, I don't see what the big deal is. A videogame inspired character does not necessitate a change in neither narrative tone nor a how the DM's world works. Just because you have a pokemon PC doesn't mean any other pokemon exist in that setting, let alone any other trappings of the videogame or anime. Likewise, a Shadow PC doesn't mean you'll also find a Rozen Queen branch around every corner. So what is your hang-up over this player's choice?
I'm not 100% sure that it's balderdash, though he does look for all the world like a troll sometimes.
Rather, it's clear from his previous posts that his group consists of a handful of younger folks with no previous D&D experience, and the Dungeon Master (DM) is still finding his way, and the whole group still has quite a bit of the learning curve ahead of them.
Everything this group knows about D&D, it seems has come from Final Fantasy, World of Warcraft, and Pokemon. That's not necessarily a bad thing, and it could be worse: everything I knew about D&D when I first started playing came from Mazes and Monsters, the Lord of the Rings books, Jack Chick, and the D&D TV show. But it does present some challenges for this group!
Just in case the original poster does come back to this thread, or is lurking and reading the responses:
[Spoiler Long Version]
Home-brew content:
I missed the part about the home-brewing.
- The DM makes final decisions on the rules, but carries the responsiblity of getting to know the rules at least as well as everyone else.
- The DM controls the game world and what belongs in it, but bears the responsiblity of making sure that the things he puts in it add to the game in a constructive way, and the players enjoy it and have fun.
- The DM can indeed make up his own home-brew content, and doesn't need anyone's permission to do that, and he bears the responsiblity of making sure his home-made rules, monsters, classes, races, equipment, and stories are balanced, and fun for everyone.
For a new group, I recommend keeping home-brewed content as minimal and low-impact as possible. Changing a Halfling or Dwarf's name and description to resemble a Poke-Thing, but keeping the same mechanics as the original race, is low impact and minimal. "Mechanics" are things like Powers, Feats, Attacks, Defenses, and other maths and rules stuff. Keeping the changes small and simple helps to avoid problems that seem small at first but snowball into game-breaking problems later on.
DM Issues:
The DM sounds like he needs a lot of support and help. It's a tough game to understand, with a lot of new concepts, ideas, and rules to absorb all at once. A new DM has to develop and learn a lot of new skills, including the skills needed to manage the game, and entertain and lead other people at the same time. It's a tough job!
The best way to handle problems like arguments over rules and style, is away from the game table, and preferably in private, so that you aren't calling the DM out in front of everyone else. That's generally embarrassing for a new DM, and people tend to get stubborn, closed-minded, and hard to reason with when they are embarrassed.
Offer to spend some time with the DM reading over the Red Box's booklets together, just to make sure you both understand the rules - this is as much to ensure that you understand the game, as it is to understand the DM understands it - it's a learning experience for both of you. Take the time to run the numbers on things together, play-test things together, and try to understand how things work and why they work that way.
There's no reason that players can't read the rules section of the DM's booklet, and the DM can't read all of the player's booklet. (In fact, it's a good idea for the DM in particular to read and understand everything in both booklets!)
Acknowledging taht you both have a lot to learn, and spending time together reading over the rules and figuring out how they work, is much better than accusing each other of cheating in front of the group.
You can also suggest rotating the DM duties, so that you and all the players get a chance to DM the game as well. Being a Dungeon Master can look like a much harder job when you are the one doing it, and I think it's good for everyone to see what that job is like. Meanwhile, the DM can learn a lot from being a player in other folks' games, too.
The Point:
In the end, everyone in your group, including the DM, should remember that the point of a cooperative game like D&D is to use your imagination, tell an entertaining and exciting story together, and have fun!
The rules and dice-tossing are there mostly to add an element of surprise to things and to keep fair any disagreements over what someone can and can't do.
It's a cooperative game, and even the DM is playing a part in cooperating with the players to ensure that they all have fun and get a chance to shine, and the players are playing a part to cooperate with the DM to make sure he's having fun and his story is fun for everyone involved.
There isn't really any way to "win" or "lose" a game like D&D.
So, keep things fair, cooperate with each other, and have fun!
[/spoiler]
Short Version:
- Home-Brew:
- The DM has a lot of power and responsibility.
- This power includes the ability to make up or include any home-made rules, monsters, stories, treasures, or anything else the DM can imagine. That power is listed right there in the DM's rule-book!
- This responsiblity includes keeping the game, and anything added to it, balanced, fair, and fun. This responsibility is also listed right there in the DM's rule-book. It's a tough job to be a DM!
- It's probably best to keep things simple with a new group, and avoid changing anything more dramatic than a name or description.
- Your DM Needs You:
- It sounds like your DM really needs some help, guidance, and support.
- Teach by example: avoid calling the DM and other players out in front of the group - this is better done on neutral territory, away from the game.
- Offer to read over the rules together with the DM, so that you both understand them better. (You can both benefit from this, and it's better than accusing each other of cheating!)
- Suggest rotating DM duties around the group, so that everyone gets a chance to be the DM. It gives everyone a chance to try this challenging position out and learn something, and it gives everyone a chance to see different styles of DMing in action, and learn something new from that experience.
- The Point:
- D&D is about imagination, and cooperating in telling a fun story.
- Everything else, including the rules and dice-rolling, is there to encourage imagination, cooperation, and fun; the rules and dice-rolling just keep it fair.
- So, cooperate, use your imaginations, keep things fair, and have fun!
A videogame inspired character does not necessitate a change in neither narrative tone nor a how the DM's world works.
Heck, I'm building a character directly inspired by a Disney Princess. The DM loves it and is embellishing her family background as part of the story background - and also we're using it to explain why some of the characters together.
A Pokemon? I can see it. Can't comment on any specific one because I don't know any of the specifics... if the "evolving" thing is important then you need a shifter race or a Druid or the Pack Outcast theme or something like that; ignoring that, Dragonborn would do for a lot of them with "natural" ranged weapons... (I prefer refluffing to homebrewing of races/classes/powers - it's easier to be confident that the result is neither overly weak nor overly powerful.)
But it isn't my call, or the OP's call. It's the DM's call.
if the "evolving" thing is important then you need a shifter race or a Druid or the Pack Outcast theme or something like that;
Evolve when you advance in tier; you just got a sudden boost of power and new abilities, just describe your appearance changing.
if the "evolving" thing is important then you need a shifter race or a Druid or the Pack Outcast theme or something like that;
Evolve when you advance in tier; you just got a sudden boost of power and new abilities, just describe your appearance changing.
That would work better than what I suggested...
if the "evolving" thing is important then you need a shifter race or a Druid or the Pack Outcast theme or something like that;
Evolve when you advance in tier; you just got a sudden boost of power and new abilities, just describe your appearance changing.
That would work better than what I suggested...
Thanks. It made more sense to me, since evolution is a one-way process in Pokemon.
if the "evolving" thing is important then you need a shifter race or a Druid or the Pack Outcast theme or something like that;
Evolve when you advance in tier; you just got a sudden boost of power and new abilities, just describe your appearance changing.
That would work better than what I suggested...
Thanks. It made more sense to me, since evolution is a one-way process in Pokemon.
I'm now thinking how funny it would be if the player, at level 11, asks "Where's the B button? I'd prefer to get higher Special..."
you have no right to ask or demand anything from other players unless you are the DM
bullshit.
you have no right to ask or demand anything from other players unless you are the DM
bullshit.
Thread necromancy? I'm going to assume that you're trolling. Or one of those jerks who tells everyone else at the table what to play and do. Which is essentially a troll.
you have no right to ask or demand anything from other players unless you are the DM
[expletive]
Thread necromancy? I'm going to assume that you're trolling. Or one of those jerks who tells everyone else at the table what to play and do. Which is essentially a troll.
Especially since that one-word reply is inflammatory, against forum rules, contains no elaboration to explain what could, in more skilled and better-motivated hands, have been a valid argument, and adds nothing to the discussion.
Combat is fun, fantacy is fun, magic and levels and power oh my!
But for me it really coms down to getting together and telling a story With your friends.
Before I ever knew what D&D was I was playing like this in my back yard with my brother.
So I understand how another players bazzaro chose could throw you off your game and make you react like you did. I understand that.
But for him he is simply looking to play the game He wants too.
So sit down and ask him about his char, how he will fit in the world, how others will take him, where his people are from, if he can talk or hold a sword ect. he might like the idea a lot less after thinking about it.
If he still loves it, talk to your DM, address your concern see if the DM wants to sit everyone down for a group character building evening. Build a party everyone is happy wth, its a lot of fun.
If you are still not happy, maybe this game just isn't for you, and if you are the odd man out, move on, or just suck it up and have fun with a silly bazzaro game of D&D&P...
(Oh and to the couple post above me, you certainly can talk to other player about their characters, respectfuly as you all play in the same game, a DM is just a different kind of player, and many player problems are best left for players to work out, respectfuly, (not with swearing CCS) )
*Pictures Orcs standing over a small green Metapod working up a sweat trying to hack it open with their axes and screaming in frustration*
PkMn+DnD?
Win!