Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 SourceOfEvil May 04, 2009 9:21:02	4E, when a wizard uses flaming sphere he can attack an adjacent enemy and all creatures that start their turn next to it take damage. However, what about moving it? Can you move it through an enemy square? If so, do they take damage? Can you move it through an ally's square? Do they take damage? Any helpful sharing of info would be great. Thanks,
#2 AbdulAlhazred May 04, 2009 10:03:02	If you have Player's Handbook 2 you probably want to go over the rules update section because it does clarify some things. As far as your questions about damage. The damage is totally explained under the power, there are no general rules for conjurations on dealing damage. So yes the sphere does d4+int damage to anyone, even allies, starting their turn adjacent to it. It won't damage anyone it moves next to unless they start their turn next to it. As a conjuration the sphere does not take up any space on the board. So both enemies and allies can move through it, and if they go fast enough they can run right through and take no damage since they didn't start movement next to the sphere. Conjurations are not effected by terrain, cannot be attacked, and in fact cannot be effected by anything unless the power specifically says otherwise. They don't provide cover, do not make or provoke OAs, etc. As for where they can move, you won't get any consensus here on that. The best we can say is that recent CS rulings are consistently that while a conjuration cannot move or be cast "up in the air" it also "does not need a supporting surface" and thus can float across a pit for example. What happens if you are IN the air or casting it into a floorless area at your level is entirely undefined. It may become important to know that while most rules only consider the 2d effects of things all area/bursts extend 3 dimensionally, that is a 3x3 blast effect is really 3x3x3 and extends one square out in height as well as width and depth. This can be important when targeting things in the air or on a wall. Specifically a creature over the flaming sphere or adjacent but 1 square up in the air WOULD be considered adjacent and could take damage or be subject to the sphere's attack. No doubt there are an infinity of other possible things to consider.
#3 arcana_man May 04, 2009 10:27:00	I was actually thinking about this spell a few days ago... but i am from 3.5 and had a different creative way of using this spell... You are capable of having the sphere bouce 30 feet up in the air... if you want to reach opponents up high.. but what if you have it bounce in the air then land on an enemy... would they take the 2d6 fire dmg + the 3d6 falling damage? If it was me ruling it and a player decided to use it creatively id probly say to make it reflex for the falling dmg as well... but thats really nice.... 5d6 IDK about 4th edition but 3.5 this spell is really nice for a caster to deal dmg every turn without throwing away all there spells...especialy if it deals 2d6 fire and 3d6 falling every turn...you can lay seige to large building lol just have it crash through the roof and bounce all over the place... hehehe
#4 nowiwantmydmg May 04, 2009 11:40:40	4E, when a wizard uses flaming sphere he can attack an adjacent enemy and all creatures that start their turn next to it take damage. However, what about moving it? Can you move it through an enemy square? If so, do they take damage? Can you move it through an ally's square? Do they take damage? Any helpful sharing of info would be great. Thanks, Creatures only take damage from the sphere if they are adjacent at the start of their turns or if they are attacked with it. Movement wise is unclear (rulesbook-wise)as of yet, it can only move on the horizontal plane though, so no vertical shenanigans. Most people I've played with have houseruled that it can move through allied squares (as allies can) since it is an allied effect, but not through enemy squares. That said it is still one of the best daily powers in the game period.
#5 LordOfWeasels May 04, 2009 14:01:35	As a conjuration the sphere does not take up any space on the board. So both enemies and allies can move through it, Not true. Flaming Sphere specifically *does* occupy the square, meaning allies can move through and enemies cannot. But in general, for Conjurations, you're correct. Flaming Sphere simply carries an exception.
#6 SourceOfEvil May 04, 2009 14:50:00	So, enemies can't move through it and it can't move through enemies, but allies can and vice-versa? BTW, picking up PH2 soon, so hoping there's more info in there.
#7 LordOfWeasels May 04, 2009 16:46:20	Correct on both points. And while PHB2 has a much prettier and easier to read Conjurations section, it doesn't add any new rules above and beyond the corrections to PHB1 available from the D&D Updates site, here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/updates
#8 AbdulAlhazred May 05, 2009 8:19:12	Not true. Flaming Sphere specifically *does* occupy the square, meaning allies can move through and enemies cannot. But in general, for Conjurations, you're correct. Flaming Sphere simply carries an exception. I'm sorry. I disagree Effect: You conjure a medium flaming sphere in a square within range, and the sphere attacks. I see nothing anywhere in this effect line which indicates the sphere occupies a square. In fact it is not even required (post errata) for it to be conjured in an unoccupied square. Thus both enemy and allied creatures can move through it or even end their turn in its square. Ironically if you go exactly by RAW the sphere also does no damage to anyone IN its square at the start of their turn. I suspect the original authors of the power imagined it taking up a square. But by RAW and especially after errata it appears that it really doesn't do so. Personally I would apply the 1d4 damage to anyone starting IN the square of sphere as well as adjacent, but if you want to be hair-splittingly correct, it doesn't. All things considered it is pretty much the best daily at level 1, hands down just based on the damage. I suspect nerfing its blocking power a bit doesn't really hurt that much.
#9 LordOfWeasels May 05, 2009 9:04:25	I see nothing anywhere in this effect line which indicates the sphere occupies a square. In fact it is not even required (post errata) for it to be conjured in an unoccupied square. You're wrong. Read *all* the errata - you've read the change that says Conjurations don't occupy spaces, now read the changes they made to Flaming Sphere. "Flaming Sphere [Revision] Player ’s Handbook, page 160 Move the Effect line above the Target line and replace the text with the following: Effect : You conjure a Medium flaming sphere that occupies a square within range, and the sphere attacks. Any creature that starts its turn adjacent to the sphere takes 1d4 + Intelligence modifier fire damage. As a move action, you can move the sphere 6 squares." Flaming Sphere occupies a square.
#10 SourceOfEvil May 05, 2009 13:25:49	You're wrong. Read *all* the errata - you've read the change that says Conjurations don't occupy spaces, now read the changes they made to Flaming Sphere. "Flaming Sphere [Revision] Player ’s Handbook, page 160 Move the Effect line above the Target line and replace the text with the following: Effect : You conjure a Medium flaming sphere that occupies a square within range, and the sphere attacks. Any creature that starts its turn adjacent to the sphere takes 1d4 + Intelligence modifier fire damage. As a move action, you can move the sphere 6 squares." Flaming Sphere occupies a square. Exactly what I was looking for. Thanks!
#11 mock26 May 05, 2009 13:47:47	I was actually thinking about this spell a few days ago... but i am from 3.5 and had a different creative way of using this spell... You are capable of having the sphere bouce 30 feet up in the air... if you want to reach opponents up high.. but what if you have it bounce in the air then land on an enemy... would they take the 2d6 fire dmg + the 3d6 falling damage? If it was me ruling it and a player decided to use it creatively id probly say to make it reflex for the falling dmg as well... but thats really nice.... 5d6 IDK about 4th edition but 3.5 this spell is really nice for a caster to deal dmg every turn without throwing away all there spells...especialy if it deals 2d6 fire and 3d6 falling every turn...you can lay seige to large building lol just have it crash through the roof and bounce all over the place... hehehe I would rule against the 3d6 falling damage becuase it is a sphere of fire, not a sphere of matter (such as wood or stone) that is on fire. And, fire has no real mass.
#12 mock26 May 05, 2009 13:51:55	I see nothing anywhere in this effect line which indicates the sphere occupies a square. In fact it is not even required (post errata) for it to be conjured in an unoccupied square. Thus both enemy and allied creatures can move through it or even end their turn in its square. Ironically if you go exactly by RAW the sphere also does no damage to anyone IN its square at the start of their turn. I suspect the original authors of the power imagined it taking up a square. But by RAW and especially after errata it appears that it really doesn't do so. Personally I would apply the 1d4 damage to anyone starting IN the square of sphere as well as adjacent, but if you want to be hair-splittingly correct, it doesn't. All things considered it is pretty much the best daily at level 1, hands down just based on the damage. I suspect nerfing its blocking power a bit doesn't really hurt that much. Sometimes the RAW needs to be tempered with common sense.
#13 AbdulAlhazred May 07, 2009 10:36:13	Sometimes the RAW needs to be tempered with common sense. Sure, but there is no "common sense" WRT a spell. It acts however the rules say it acts. There is no reason why I should believe that a flaming sphere occupies a space unless the rules SAY so. I can look at a rule and say "this is broken" and house rule it, but what exactly about Flaming Sphere would make it broken for it to not occupy a square? In any case I just missed that the latest PHB errata updated the last PHB errata on Flaming Sphere, so yes I agree it once again occupies a square. lol. You would think when WotC takes the trouble to issue an errata they would really look at it and make sure it is right, but apparently not... So, yes, I agree, it takes up a square and thus enemies can't move through it, nor can it occupy the same space as a creature at the end of either its or the creature's move.
#14 mock26 May 08, 2009 0:10:41	Sure, but there is no "common sense" WRT a spell. It acts however the rules say it acts. There is no reason why I should believe that a flaming sphere occupies a space unless the rules SAY so. I can look at a rule and say "this is broken" and house rule it, but what exactly about Flaming Sphere would make it broken for it to not occupy a square? In any case I just missed that the latest PHB errata updated the last PHB errata on Flaming Sphere, so yes I agree it once again occupies a square. lol. You would think when WotC takes the trouble to issue an errata they would really look at it and make sure it is right, but apparently not... So, yes, I agree, it takes up a square and thus enemies can't move through it, nor can it occupy the same space as a creature at the end of either its or the creature's move. There is a big reason as to why you should believe that a flaming sphere occupies a space. In fact, there are two. The first are the words "flaiming sphere." The other is common sense.