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Stacking Criticals?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
jage
Mar 30, 2008 21:15:02 From the PHB the best crit range I can get seems to be 15-20 by doubling the threat range but it says the effect doesn't stack- is there any way to get a larger threat range? What's the max possible?
#2
groundzero0523
Mar 30, 2008 21:30:48
From the PHB the best crit range I can get seems to be 15-20 by doubling the threat range but it says the effect doesn't stack- is there any way to get a larger threat range? What's the max possible?

There might be some Prestige Classes buried somewhere that may increase CRIT ranges even further, but to my knowledge, the whopping 15-20 is as low as it can go without certain rules being ignored.

Off-subject/On-topic: In a Star Wars RPG Revised game, my player took the right Feats, and combined it with the proper Prestige Class, and does a 15-20 CRIT with his unarmed strike, then a certain number of times per day he can lower it to 9-20. I know, disgusting *lol*
#3
wraithstrike
Mar 30, 2008 23:36:10
From the PHB the best crit range I can get seems to be 15-20 by doubling the threat range but it says the effect doesn't stack- is there any way to get a larger threat range? What's the max possible?

now without 3rd party or the DM's help, but if you do the DM may take the weapon or use the tactic against you.
#4
radijs
Mar 31, 2008 7:57:39 Actually its possible through at least 2 ways as far as I know.

There's an EVIL PRC in the book of vile darkness, Disciple of Dispater if I recall correctly which lets you increase the threat range of your weapon.

And there's the psychic weapon master PRC which can be found on the wizards website which lets you do pretty much the same except with some psionic flavour and no yucky evilness.
#5
stolide
Mar 31, 2008 8:15:00 And the improved critical feat in the phb...
#6
jage
Mar 31, 2008 9:19:09
And the improved critical feat in the phb...

Right except:
Improved Critical [General]
{deleted}
This effect doesn’t stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon.

Do the others specifically expand the threat range?

Basically a guy at our table rolls crits 4 out of 5 attacks on average and I'm looking for an explaination that is within the RAW, even if it's materials non-approved by WizO.

I haven't seen his character sheet, nor can I see his dice rolls from where I sit. I'm just starting to get really curious as to what is going on at the table that lets him crit, crit, crit. and I don't want to get in a discussion where I'd inevitably feel obligated to point out that crit range effects don't stack in the RAW... so if there was feat X in publication Y that stacked I'd feel a lot better talking to him about how he crits so much.
#7
Zherog
Mar 31, 2008 9:24:22
Actually its possible through at least 2 ways as far as I know.

There's an EVIL PRC in the book of vile darkness, Disciple of Dispater if I recall correctly which lets you increase the threat range of your weapon.

The problem with this one is that BoVD was written for 3.0, which allowed crit ranges to stack. If you "update" the class to 3.0, it likely wouldn't stack.
#8
jage
Mar 31, 2008 9:42:40 That would make sense that they are using unmodified 3.0 rules. Thanks!
#9
green_yawgmoth
Mar 31, 2008 9:52:29 I miss (and use when I DM) the 3.0 crit rules. I loved my weapon master/DoD/other stuff with the scimitars of 8-20 crit. I put all the bursts on his weapons. Wasn't much good for anything else, but man, if you got in melee you better have resists and a good AC.
#10
draconsnighthawk
Mar 31, 2008 10:28:52 Ether the player is using 3.0 rules, or is cheating. Seeing as he crits 4/5 of the time, and you can't see the rolls (Which I'm betting the DM can't ether), I'm leaning towards cheating.

My group tends to have a unwritten rule. The closer the combat is, the more likely we all shout and point towards a 20 we just rolled, without touching it, so everyone knows without a doubt they just rolled a 20. Doubly so when they roll another in a roll, and All look if they roll a 3rd time.
#11
Demetri_Knighthawk
Mar 31, 2008 10:57:57 just wondering, please show each step to getting your critical range.

(side note, its been bugging me, what is RAW?)
#12
kelvinaw273
Mar 31, 2008 11:00:32
Right except:

Do the others specifically expand the threat range?

Basically a guy at our table rolls crits 4 out of 5 attacks on average and I'm looking for an explaination that is within the RAW, even if it's materials non-approved by WizO.

I haven't seen his character sheet, nor can I see his dice rolls from where I sit. I'm just starting to get really curious as to what is going on at the table that lets him crit, crit, crit. and I don't want to get in a discussion where I'd inevitably feel obligated to point out that crit range effects don't stack in the RAW... so if there was feat X in publication Y that stacked I'd feel a lot better talking to him about how he crits so much.

4/5 attacks means his threat range should be 6-20 ... and he's confirming each time ... that assumes that he can HIT on a 6+ too ... you know, I suspect he's not being entirely honest ...
#13
Zherog
Mar 31, 2008 11:16:47
(side note, its been bugging me, what is RAW?)

Rules As Written
#14
radijs
Mar 31, 2008 16:44:45 There's still the option of the psychic weapons master:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20020927a

With the falchion I believe you end up with a 12-20 crit range.
#15
khadmus
Mar 31, 2008 16:49:06 The Cityscape Web enhancement for barbarian adds a class ability that I think replaces damage reduction. It gives a stacking critical increase.
#16
zerospace9000
Apr 01, 2008 0:51:31 There's just one problem with Psychic Weapon Master; It's 3.0! That is, unless WotC brought Psionic Combat back into 3.5, which I HIGHLY doubt...
#17
koda77
Apr 01, 2008 2:16:30 the minds eye psychic weapon master was updated and i am currently using one, much fun to use though i could see many groups thinkiing it is overpowered, all though a wonderful character in a higher powered campaign, and yes it still adds 2 to the threat range as long as you have improved crit does not work with keen

so a falchion would have a 13-20 crit but that is a seventh levl ability that costs you 4 manifester levels
#18
kelb_havoc
Apr 01, 2008 3:01:57 Get a scimitar or falchion or rapier, take improved crit, take 7 lvls of kensei (OA pg 53) crit on 13-20.

Breakdown: weapon 18-20, double it for improved crit 15-20, ki critical from kensei +2 to weapons threat range 13-20. Since ki critical is an increase (if you have improved crit) and not a multiplier it doesn't matter that if you're using the stacking rules for 3.0 or the ones for 3.5
#19
StevenO
Apr 01, 2008 16:32:09
Basically a guy at our table rolls crits 4 out of 5 attacks on average and I'm looking for an explaination that is within the RAW, even if it's materials non-approved by WizO.

I haven't seen his character sheet, nor can I see his dice rolls from where I sit. I'm just starting to get really curious as to what is going on at the table that lets him crit, crit, crit. and I don't want to get in a discussion where I'd inevitably feel obligated to point out that crit range effects don't stack in the RAW... so if there was feat X in publication Y that stacked I'd feel a lot better talking to him about how he crits so much.

If it isn't approved WotC material then it isn't RAW to begin with. You may just as well go back to the 3.0 era when you could stack the effects allowing you a possible crit range of 12-20. Also remember that this is NOT the minis game where a roll in the "critical" range is also an auto-hit; those still only happen with natural 20s.

Now if you allow that kind of threat range there is only one way I can think of to make them all ACTUAL criticals without confirmation rolls; a Paladin's Bless Weapon spell negates the need for confirmation rolls although the initial attack still needs to hit. Note that the Blackguard has a variation of the spell that would work the same way. The thing about that spell is that you can't have any other magic related to the criticals which includes Keen or things like Vorpal.
#20
timlagor
Apr 01, 2008 19:54:29 Is OA a 3.0 book? I believe Kensei is in Complete Warrior...
#21
Vicerious
Apr 01, 2008 20:41:45
Is OA a 3.0 book? I believe Kensei is in Complete Warrior...

I'm not sure about OA, but the kensai in Complete Warrior does not have any crit-boosting abilities.
#22
StevenO
Apr 01, 2008 22:41:45
I'm not sure about OA, but the kensai in Complete Warrior does not have any crit-boosting abilities.

I'm over 90% sure OA is 3.0 otherwise you wouldn't have seen parts of it "updated" into 3.5 material. The Kensai may not have any direct crit-boosting abilities but it can give its "signiture weapon" the Keen ability plus a number of others that trigger on crits.
#23
tytalus
Apr 02, 2008 3:58:10
If it isn't approved WotC material then it isn't RAW to begin with.

Ridiculous. RAW means "Rules As Written", not "Rules Approved by Wotc". If a gaming group chooses to include certain third-party rules, then those rules do apply as well. You can even talk about the RAW of house rules, if they exist in written form.
#24
wraithstrike
Apr 02, 2008 20:49:41
Ridiculous. RAW means "Rules As Written", not "Rules Approved by Wotc". If a gaming group chooses to include certain third-party rules, then those rules do apply as well. You can even talk about the RAW of house rules, if they exist in written form.

It is a common understanding that on the boards the only "official rules" are those by WoTC. This does not mean you can't use other rules, but for the purposes of builds, and so everyone has common ground RAW=WoTC's Rules.
This is the standard for discussions and debates and helping people build characters unless the OP provides an exception to the rule when asking for help.
#25
tytalus
Apr 03, 2008 3:16:22
It is a common understanding that on the boards the only "official rules" are those by WoTC. This does not mean you can't use other rules, but for the purposes of builds, and so everyone has common ground RAW=WoTC's Rules.
This is the standard for discussions and debates and helping people build characters unless the OP provides an exception to the rule when asking for help.

Of course the only "official" rules are WotC rules. That's not a "common understanding", that's a simple fact.

However, for each individual campaign, additional rules may be in place, and of course the RAW of those rules can be discussed as well.

Note that I'm not saying that one should present posters with unofficial/third-party/houseruled advice; it makes perfect sense to limit this to official rules. However, this has nothing to do with the term "RAW".
#26
StevenO
Apr 03, 2008 12:44:15 Actually RAW could mean Rules Approved by WotC as Tytalus put it when commenting on my statement that third party really isn't RAW. If you want to use Rules As Written and include anything that makes someone scoring criticals about "4 out of 5 attacks" perfectly legal. How to make that happen with "Rules As Written" is incredibly simple:

House Rules:
1. All rolls that produce critical threats are automatic hits and don't require that time consuming confirmation roll so they are automatically criticals.
2. All effects that expand critical threat ranges stack.
3. New Feat: Supreme Critical - in brief as Improved Critical except threat range is tripples. A scimitar normally threates on 18-20 (3 numbers) but with this it threatens on 12-20 (9 numbers).

Note that #1 and #2 are how the minis game had played criticals before making the "perfectly logical" houserules that must be balanced.

Now if these are house rules and considered part of the local RAW that explains a lot. Of course with these house rules I wouldn't question why someone is scoring so many critical but be trying to abuse them myself. Campain RAW and board RAW can be two very different things.
#27
ragentx
Apr 03, 2008 15:32:49 An abyssal BloodIron weapon gives a +4 to confirm crits and Power crit feat ( i believe) in CW add a +4 also... so you could have a better chance at confirming the crit then you did to hit.
#28
raymond_luxury_yacht
Apr 03, 2008 17:17:04 Best legal threat range in 3.5 is 9-20. Take a Nimblewright and give it Improved Critical (Rapierhand).
#29
harleydude
Apr 04, 2008 11:49:45
the minds eye psychic weapon master was updated and i am currently using one, much fun to use though i could see many groups thinkiing it is overpowered, all though a wonderful character in a higher powered campaign, and yes it still adds 2 to the threat range as long as you have improved crit does not work with keen

so a falchion would have a 13-20 crit but that is a seventh levl ability that costs you 4 manifester levels

I just printed out the PrC from the above post and then saw your post. Where is the "updated" materal? We definately play 3.5 and I'm not sure our DM will allow the PrC as I have printed.

HD
#30
captain_madrick
Apr 04, 2008 13:31:39 Which book is Nimblewright from?
#31
wraithstrike
Apr 04, 2008 17:17:22
Which book is Nimblewright from?

monster manual 2. It is an intelligent construct.
#32
wizarddog
Apr 06, 2008 18:08:08 Which is again---3.0! Unless you use the errata.

And it's special ability is Augment Critical EX.
Allowing it to stack with improve Crit or have keen weapon is asking for trouble.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 jage Mar 30, 2008 21:15:02	From the PHB the best crit range I can get seems to be 15-20 by doubling the threat range but it says the effect doesn't stack- is there any way to get a larger threat range? What's the max possible?
#2 groundzero0523 Mar 30, 2008 21:30:48	From the PHB the best crit range I can get seems to be 15-20 by doubling the threat range but it says the effect doesn't stack- is there any way to get a larger threat range? What's the max possible? There might be some Prestige Classes buried somewhere that may increase CRIT ranges even further, but to my knowledge, the whopping 15-20 is as low as it can go without certain rules being ignored. Off-subject/On-topic: In a Star Wars RPG Revised game, my player took the right Feats, and combined it with the proper Prestige Class, and does a 15-20 CRIT with his unarmed strike, then a certain number of times per day he can lower it to 9-20. I know, disgusting lol
#3 wraithstrike Mar 30, 2008 23:36:10	From the PHB the best crit range I can get seems to be 15-20 by doubling the threat range but it says the effect doesn't stack- is there any way to get a larger threat range? What's the max possible? now without 3rd party or the DM's help, but if you do the DM may take the weapon or use the tactic against you.
#4 radijs Mar 31, 2008 7:57:39	Actually its possible through at least 2 ways as far as I know. There's an EVIL PRC in the book of vile darkness, Disciple of Dispater if I recall correctly which lets you increase the threat range of your weapon. And there's the psychic weapon master PRC which can be found on the wizards website which lets you do pretty much the same except with some psionic flavour and no yucky evilness.
#5 stolide Mar 31, 2008 8:15:00	And the improved critical feat in the phb...
#6 jage Mar 31, 2008 9:19:09	And the improved critical feat in the phb... Right except: Improved Critical [General] {deleted} This effect doesn’t stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon. Do the others specifically expand the threat range? Basically a guy at our table rolls crits 4 out of 5 attacks on average and I'm looking for an explaination that is within the RAW, even if it's materials non-approved by WizO. I haven't seen his character sheet, nor can I see his dice rolls from where I sit. I'm just starting to get really curious as to what is going on at the table that lets him crit, crit, crit. and I don't want to get in a discussion where I'd inevitably feel obligated to point out that crit range effects don't stack in the RAW... so if there was feat X in publication Y that stacked I'd feel a lot better talking to him about how he crits so much.
#7 Zherog Mar 31, 2008 9:24:22	Actually its possible through at least 2 ways as far as I know. There's an EVIL PRC in the book of vile darkness, Disciple of Dispater if I recall correctly which lets you increase the threat range of your weapon. The problem with this one is that BoVD was written for 3.0, which allowed crit ranges to stack. If you "update" the class to 3.0, it likely wouldn't stack.
#8 jage Mar 31, 2008 9:42:40	That would make sense that they are using unmodified 3.0 rules. Thanks!
#9 green_yawgmoth Mar 31, 2008 9:52:29	I miss (and use when I DM) the 3.0 crit rules. I loved my weapon master/DoD/other stuff with the scimitars of 8-20 crit. I put all the bursts on his weapons. Wasn't much good for anything else, but man, if you got in melee you better have resists and a good AC.
#10 draconsnighthawk Mar 31, 2008 10:28:52	Ether the player is using 3.0 rules, or is cheating. Seeing as he crits 4/5 of the time, and you can't see the rolls (Which I'm betting the DM can't ether), I'm leaning towards cheating. My group tends to have a unwritten rule. The closer the combat is, the more likely we all shout and point towards a 20 we just rolled, without touching it, so everyone knows without a doubt they just rolled a 20. Doubly so when they roll another in a roll, and All look if they roll a 3rd time.
#11 Demetri_Knighthawk Mar 31, 2008 10:57:57	just wondering, please show each step to getting your critical range. (side note, its been bugging me, what is RAW?)
#12 kelvinaw273 Mar 31, 2008 11:00:32	Right except: Do the others specifically expand the threat range? Basically a guy at our table rolls crits 4 out of 5 attacks on average and I'm looking for an explaination that is within the RAW, even if it's materials non-approved by WizO. I haven't seen his character sheet, nor can I see his dice rolls from where I sit. I'm just starting to get really curious as to what is going on at the table that lets him crit, crit, crit. and I don't want to get in a discussion where I'd inevitably feel obligated to point out that crit range effects don't stack in the RAW... so if there was feat X in publication Y that stacked I'd feel a lot better talking to him about how he crits so much. 4/5 attacks means his threat range should be 6-20 ... and he's confirming each time ... that assumes that he can HIT on a 6+ too ... you know, I suspect he's not being entirely honest ...
#13 Zherog Mar 31, 2008 11:16:47	(side note, its been bugging me, what is RAW?) Rules As Written
#14 radijs Mar 31, 2008 16:44:45	There's still the option of the psychic weapons master: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20020927a With the falchion I believe you end up with a 12-20 crit range.
#15 khadmus Mar 31, 2008 16:49:06	The Cityscape Web enhancement for barbarian adds a class ability that I think replaces damage reduction. It gives a stacking critical increase.
#16 zerospace9000 Apr 01, 2008 0:51:31	There's just one problem with Psychic Weapon Master; It's 3.0! That is, unless WotC brought Psionic Combat back into 3.5, which I HIGHLY doubt...
#17 koda77 Apr 01, 2008 2:16:30	the minds eye psychic weapon master was updated and i am currently using one, much fun to use though i could see many groups thinkiing it is overpowered, all though a wonderful character in a higher powered campaign, and yes it still adds 2 to the threat range as long as you have improved crit does not work with keen so a falchion would have a 13-20 crit but that is a seventh levl ability that costs you 4 manifester levels
#18 kelb_havoc Apr 01, 2008 3:01:57	Get a scimitar or falchion or rapier, take improved crit, take 7 lvls of kensei (OA pg 53) crit on 13-20. Breakdown: weapon 18-20, double it for improved crit 15-20, ki critical from kensei +2 to weapons threat range 13-20. Since ki critical is an increase (if you have improved crit) and not a multiplier it doesn't matter that if you're using the stacking rules for 3.0 or the ones for 3.5
#19 StevenO Apr 01, 2008 16:32:09	Basically a guy at our table rolls crits 4 out of 5 attacks on average and I'm looking for an explaination that is within the RAW, even if it's materials non-approved by WizO. I haven't seen his character sheet, nor can I see his dice rolls from where I sit. I'm just starting to get really curious as to what is going on at the table that lets him crit, crit, crit. and I don't want to get in a discussion where I'd inevitably feel obligated to point out that crit range effects don't stack in the RAW... so if there was feat X in publication Y that stacked I'd feel a lot better talking to him about how he crits so much. If it isn't approved WotC material then it isn't RAW to begin with. You may just as well go back to the 3.0 era when you could stack the effects allowing you a possible crit range of 12-20. Also remember that this is NOT the minis game where a roll in the "critical" range is also an auto-hit; those still only happen with natural 20s. Now if you allow that kind of threat range there is only one way I can think of to make them all ACTUAL criticals without confirmation rolls; a Paladin's Bless Weapon spell negates the need for confirmation rolls although the initial attack still needs to hit. Note that the Blackguard has a variation of the spell that would work the same way. The thing about that spell is that you can't have any other magic related to the criticals which includes Keen or things like Vorpal.
#20 timlagor Apr 01, 2008 19:54:29	Is OA a 3.0 book? I believe Kensei is in Complete Warrior...
#21 Vicerious Apr 01, 2008 20:41:45	Is OA a 3.0 book? I believe Kensei is in Complete Warrior... I'm not sure about OA, but the kensai in Complete Warrior does not have any crit-boosting abilities.
#22 StevenO Apr 01, 2008 22:41:45	I'm not sure about OA, but the kensai in Complete Warrior does not have any crit-boosting abilities. I'm over 90% sure OA is 3.0 otherwise you wouldn't have seen parts of it "updated" into 3.5 material. The Kensai may not have any direct crit-boosting abilities but it can give its "signiture weapon" the Keen ability plus a number of others that trigger on crits.
#23 tytalus Apr 02, 2008 3:58:10	If it isn't approved WotC material then it isn't RAW to begin with. Ridiculous. RAW means "Rules As Written", not "Rules Approved by Wotc". If a gaming group chooses to include certain third-party rules, then those rules do apply as well. You can even talk about the RAW of house rules, if they exist in written form.
#24 wraithstrike Apr 02, 2008 20:49:41	Ridiculous. RAW means "Rules As Written", not "Rules Approved by Wotc". If a gaming group chooses to include certain third-party rules, then those rules do apply as well. You can even talk about the RAW of house rules, if they exist in written form. It is a common understanding that on the boards the only "official rules" are those by WoTC. This does not mean you can't use other rules, but for the purposes of builds, and so everyone has common ground RAW=WoTC's Rules. This is the standard for discussions and debates and helping people build characters unless the OP provides an exception to the rule when asking for help.
#25 tytalus Apr 03, 2008 3:16:22	It is a common understanding that on the boards the only "official rules" are those by WoTC. This does not mean you can't use other rules, but for the purposes of builds, and so everyone has common ground RAW=WoTC's Rules. This is the standard for discussions and debates and helping people build characters unless the OP provides an exception to the rule when asking for help. Of course the only "official" rules are WotC rules. That's not a "common understanding", that's a simple fact. However, for each individual campaign, additional rules may be in place, and of course the RAW of those rules can be discussed as well. Note that I'm not saying that one should present posters with unofficial/third-party/houseruled advice; it makes perfect sense to limit this to official rules. However, this has nothing to do with the term "RAW".
#26 StevenO Apr 03, 2008 12:44:15	Actually RAW could mean Rules Approved by WotC as Tytalus put it when commenting on my statement that third party really isn't RAW. If you want to use Rules As Written and include anything that makes someone scoring criticals about "4 out of 5 attacks" perfectly legal. How to make that happen with "Rules As Written" is incredibly simple: House Rules: 1. All rolls that produce critical threats are automatic hits and don't require that time consuming confirmation roll so they are automatically criticals. 2. All effects that expand critical threat ranges stack. 3. New Feat: Supreme Critical - in brief as Improved Critical except threat range is tripples. A scimitar normally threates on 18-20 (3 numbers) but with this it threatens on 12-20 (9 numbers). Note that #1 and #2 are how the minis game had played criticals before making the "perfectly logical" houserules that must be balanced. Now if these are house rules and considered part of the local RAW that explains a lot. Of course with these house rules I wouldn't question why someone is scoring so many critical but be trying to abuse them myself. Campain RAW and board RAW can be two very different things.
#27 ragentx Apr 03, 2008 15:32:49	An abyssal BloodIron weapon gives a +4 to confirm crits and Power crit feat ( i believe) in CW add a +4 also... so you could have a better chance at confirming the crit then you did to hit.
#28 raymond_luxury_yacht Apr 03, 2008 17:17:04	Best legal threat range in 3.5 is 9-20. Take a Nimblewright and give it Improved Critical (Rapierhand).
#29 harleydude Apr 04, 2008 11:49:45	the minds eye psychic weapon master was updated and i am currently using one, much fun to use though i could see many groups thinkiing it is overpowered, all though a wonderful character in a higher powered campaign, and yes it still adds 2 to the threat range as long as you have improved crit does not work with keen so a falchion would have a 13-20 crit but that is a seventh levl ability that costs you 4 manifester levels I just printed out the PrC from the above post and then saw your post. Where is the "updated" materal? We definately play 3.5 and I'm not sure our DM will allow the PrC as I have printed. HD
#30 captain_madrick Apr 04, 2008 13:31:39	Which book is Nimblewright from?
#31 wraithstrike Apr 04, 2008 17:17:22	Which book is Nimblewright from? monster manual 2. It is an intelligent construct.
#32 wizarddog Apr 06, 2008 18:08:08	Which is again---3.0! Unless you use the errata. And it's special ability is Augment Critical EX. Allowing it to stack with improve Crit or have keen weapon is asking for trouble.