What can I say to convince him that its not chaotic, or evil.
If so, can I be your friend?
Being a thief doesn't necessarily make you evil, with that I'll agree. But it definitely doesn't fit a good character. Being good means you go out of your way to help others, or respect life, etc. Read the PHB for the exact wording. Stealing from something doesn't fit this descriptor, so at best, thieves would be neutral, at least in the sense of stealing for a "living".
An exception to this that I can think of would be a "Robin Hood" type character, but even he would be Chaotic Good.
Rogues are usually chaotic neutral. Rogues also usually steal stuff for a living. There might be a connection ;)
Rogues are usually chaotic neutral. Rogues also usually steal stuff for a living. There might be a connection ;)
I think saying Non-Adventuring Rogues tend to be CN, CE, or NE is a valid point. Adventuring Rogues have Thieving skills to facilitate their Adventures.
Adventuring Rogues don't spend the time to go and steal the Silverware out of some nobles house, because sneaking into the local Orc Tribe and taking their stuff is more Heroic (and brings a higher price).
I believe whisper gnomes take a view that what they take is just compensation for the services they provide, and communities they ally with tolerate the theft in return for their scouting abilities, hence they can maintain a NG alignment and pocket a few gems in the process.
In that situation, while the whisper gnomes may be technically violating the law, there exists a societally accepted arrangement between parties which they are obeying, and thus it is not particularly deviant (I'd say not particularly chaotic, as that's standard operating procedure).
Stealing from those you wish to undercut for moral or ethical reasons...strikes me as an unlawful approach, regardless of the validity of your motives, though not necessarily chaotic ... I don't believe disobeying laws is chaotic and obeying laws is lawful ...
If stealing because you want stuff that doesn't belong to you is evil, is it evil to pursue a pay raise? Look for a job that pays the most? Seek a profit margin? Mine? What defines what 'belongs to you'? You? Other humans? The gods?
Mm...property is theft, and property is freedom...I'd pin stealing as situation-dependent and somewhat subject to interpretation, overall. Does a government which taxes citizens who would rather not pay stealing from its people? Is that chaotic?
If stealing because you want stuff that doesn't belong to you is evil, is it evil to pursue a pay raise? Look for a job that pays the most? Seek a profit margin? Mine? What defines what 'belongs to you'? You? Other humans? The gods?
In what sense is pursuing a pay raise, looking for a job with good pay or seeking a good profit margin stealing? I have no idea how you are relating those things to stealing.
If you are seek a pay raise you are either given it (i.e. not stealing) or not. If you are denied a pay raise and decide to take money from the company because you feel you deserve it, that is stealing.
If you have the option of two jobs and choose the one that pays better, you are given that job by the employer until you or your employer terminates the relationship. Again, not stealing or even remotely close. An example of stealing a good paying job would be eliminating or slandering the competition to ensure your success.
As for seeking a profit margin, I'm not sure what exactly you are talking about here. If you mean to say that seeking to make a profit from selling goods is stealing then I'd say you are way off base. Goods are bought because the buyer wishes to have them, if the buyer is willing to pay what you ask then there is nothing wrong with accepting their money. Stealing with regards to making a profit would be something like: you pay me for goods I never deliver and I don't refund your money.
The definition I gave of stealing, taking something that doesn't belong to you, is a very strong definition. I find it hard to believe that anyone posting a message on this board from a personal computer would have a difficult time understanding the idea of personal property and therefore find it equally hard to believe that you, Kalai_Eljahn, genuinely needed clarification on the definition of "what belongs to you".
The definition I gave of stealing, taking something that doesn't belong to you, is a very strong definition. I find it hard to believe that anyone posting a message on this board from a personal computer would have a difficult time understanding the idea of personal property and therefore find it equally hard to believe that you, Kalai_Eljahn, genuinely needed clarification on the definition of "what belongs to you".
Yeah, but I stole my personal computer. ;)
As for seeking a profit margin, I'm not sure what exactly you are talking about here. If you mean to say that seeking to make a profit from selling goods is stealing then I'd say you are way off base. Goods are bought because the buyer wishes to have them, if the buyer is willing to pay what you ask then there is nothing wrong with accepting their money. Stealing with regards to making a profit would be something like: you pay me for goods I never deliver and I don't refund your money.
He's probably referring more to exorbitant prices - you know, the stereotypical selfish merchant who quadruples grain prices in the middle of the famine simply because he can.
He's probably referring more to exorbitant prices - you know, the stereotypical selfish merchant who quadruples grain prices in the middle of the famine simply because he can.
I hope that isn't what he is referring to, because that is not stealing. That's just being a prick. It's evil, for sure, but it should not be considered stealing when the buyer willingly parts with his money in exchange for the goods you offer at the price you are offering them. Again, stealing would be the selfish merchant who quadruples grain prices, collects the money, and does not distribute the grain.
So I have a rogue who is neutral good, my DM has a mind set that stealing is wrong, and that if I decided to rob a house, its will be consider chaotic, or evil. He believes there is no reason for my character to rob a house unless he is one of those 2. The only exception to stealing he would make, is if it some how was needed for me to survive. Such as stealing food while starving. He does not believe my charater steals for a living, since he knows its "wrong" and he would do something honest, like looting forgotten temples, or disarming craps.
What can I say to convince him that its not chaotic, or evil.
Returning to the topic at hand:
You can't. Stealing - that is, taking something that is not yours - is Chaotic. The morality of things (whether its good or evil) is a secondary consideration at best.
Ethically, you're not particularly attached to following the rules, but neither do you break them just because you can. Morally, you do what is right - and "right" is defined by a sense of benefiting the most people. Most often this translates into someone who has a sincere desire to do the right thing. You're not quite a "whatever means necessary" type of person (that's more along the lines of Chaotic Good); you'll follow the laws if they are just, make sense, and still get the end result.
Simply deciding to "rob a house" is neither Neutral nor Good. The way your example is worded, it sounds as though your character has decided to pop in and make off with the flatware, just because he can. This is Chaotic first (failing to recognize the concept of personal property ownership; disregarding local ordinances prohibiting such behavior), and Evil second ("because I can"; putting your wants over the needs of others).
If you're ransacking the manor of a local crime boss with the intent to find evidence, it's still a Chaotic act (failing to recognize the concept of personal property ownership; disregarding local ordinances prohibiting such behavior), but with Good intent.
Perhaps you were CE all along, perhaps something happened to change you to CE (the temptation of a +2 flaming butter knife?), but the point is maybe you should embrace your CE side if that is really how your character is.
Secondly, no one is perfect. Robin Hood gave away his gold, but we're not all iconic archtypes. You can be tempted, fail, and still be good or neutral. One act does not evil make you. Three or four do not. If you make a life out of stealing everything that isn't nailed down, well CE it is.
On the converse, once you're CE that doesn't mean you have to go around stealing everything, killing babies in churches, and knocking down old ladies 24/7. It just means you're selfish and don't care about the law, perhaps to the point where you openly flaunt it. How you express that in game is up to you.
The best part is that it is much easier to justify "good" actions for selfish reasons than it is to justify selfish actions for good reasons.
An exception to this that I can think of would be a "Robin Hood" type character, but even he would be Chaotic Good.
Robin Hood is Lawful Good ;)
Robin Hood robbed from the rich and gave to the poor. Even though stealing was illegal, it was a good act since he was helping to ease suffering and overthrow a tyrant (Note: LG people are often extremely opposed to tyranny)
Robin Hood was devoted to King Richard. Even though he was an "outlaw" during Prince John's rule, he still gave his allegiance to the one he considered the rightful ruler.
Robin Hood planned his actions. With almost the tenacity of a general at war, he would always enter a situation with a plan in mind and not a kick-in-the-door mentality (no matter what the movies say).
He was a leader. He had a band of loyal followers with a few being his closest friends. It was a little more informal, but it resembled an army with the general and his lieutenants and their soldiers.
Robin Hood was a noble and, for a time, part of the military. This likely influenced some of his methods in forming the Merry Men and their subsequent raids on Prince John's forces.
I hope this makes it clear what Lawful Good really means. It involves working for the greater good, and being methodical, orderly, and structured. It has little to do with actually following laws, walking around with a straight back, or lacking a sense of humor. Remember that paladins have a code of conduct that goes above their alignment. That's why their actions are more restricted than normal LG characters. Robin Hood was no paladin (too many disguises), but he was definitely Lawful Good.
Copied from a website. Its good for a laugh.
In what sense is pursuing a pay raise, looking for a job with good pay or seeking a good profit margin stealing? I have no idea how you are relating those things to stealing.
If you are seek a pay raise you are either given it (i.e. not stealing) or not. If you are denied a pay raise and decide to take money from the company because you feel you deserve it, that is stealing.
If you have the option of two jobs and choose the one that pays better, you are given that job by the employer until you or your employer terminates the relationship. Again, not stealing or even remotely close. An example of stealing a good paying job would be eliminating or slandering the competition to ensure your success.
As for seeking a profit margin, I'm not sure what exactly you are talking about here. If you mean to say that seeking to make a profit from selling goods is stealing then I'd say you are way off base. Goods are bought because the buyer wishes to have them, if the buyer is willing to pay what you ask then there is nothing wrong with accepting their money. Stealing with regards to making a profit would be something like: you pay me for goods I never deliver and I don't refund your money.
The definition I gave of stealing, taking something that doesn't belong to you, is a very strong definition. I find it hard to believe that anyone posting a message on this board from a personal computer would have a difficult time understanding the idea of personal property and therefore find it equally hard to believe that you, Kalai_Eljahn, genuinely needed clarification on the definition of "what belongs to you".
I'm sorry, I made a lot of leaps of logic and did not clarify my musings properly. After all, I cannot assume you think exactly like my communist friend. :P Allow me to compose my thoughts more coherently.
I don't believe I was speaking primarily about price gouging, and I don't personally own a computer. The one I am on right now belongs to my parents; others I may use belong to the educational facilities I am attending.
Money, whether coins or paper credits, is used to a. transfer control over property or b. receive a service. It is provided as renumeration for labor.
All right, no real signs of 'stealing' so far - if you pay for a piece of property, the person who had originally owned the property agrees to transfer control to the extent of the purchase agreement...all well and good.
Assume, for the sake of argument, there is limited access to resources on this world. More labor, better labor, and useful bits of property ('means of production' or 'tools') enable greater access to these resources.
Imagine two jobs equally important to overall production, yet one (for no readily discernible reason) pays more money than the other. If two people are in these two jobs, the one with the higher-paying job will have a larger slice of the limited resources than the other.
Say the one with the high-paying job vanishes mysteriously. Assuming the existence of other job seekers, if the person with the low-paying job seeks to fill the newly vacated position, he will be denying access to that additional slice of pie to the job-seeker who will now fill his old job.
If he believes in equal pay for equal labor, this aspirant would be essentially stealing the difference in pay.
..I believe that's somewhat how my chain of logic went, albeit simplified and with many assumptions, and I haven't even gotten into control of the means of production and all that. Just to note, I was rather throwing ideas around and don't necessarily believe them.
As far as needing clarification on the definition of what belongs to me personally, I admit that I do, rather. While I respect the property of others, I have a hard time conceiving of something as belonging to me. Getting paid makes me uncomfortable...my friends and I share most items such as books or cards quite freely...generally, the most I can do is tag something with my name. Thus 'my backpack', 'my drawing', 'my character' means that I have control over the object in question, but it is rarely exclusive beyond the name. Sure, you can use my drawing, as long as you keep my name attached to it. (Creative Commons!) *shrugs* Boundaries around my 'property' have been slowly dissolving for quite some time...
...IIf he believes in equal pay for equal labor, this aspirant would be essentially stealing the difference in pay.
Only if he believes that everyone other than him had an inherent right to that job, and he had none. The person who gets the better paying job doesn't always deserve it more, but its not necessarily true that the person who didn't get the job did deserve it more.
You can believe in equal pay for equal labor and still try to get the better paying job, so long as you believe that you have an equal right to seek gainful employment. It's when you believe that other people deserve better opportunities, or even the fruits of your labor simply by virtue of wanting or needing them that taking a higher pay job could be seen as stealing. That isn't equality, it's inequality through selflessness which is just as bad as inequality through selfishness.
Just to note, I was rather throwing ideas around and don't necessarily believe them.
Noted. Just throwing ideas back.
So I have a rogue who is neutral good, my DM has a mind set that stealing is wrong, and that if I decided to rob a house, its will be consider chaotic, or evil. He believes there is no reason for my character to rob a house unless he is one of those 2. The only exception to stealing he would make, is if it some how was needed for me to survive. Such as stealing food while starving. He does not believe my charater steals for a living, since he knows its "wrong" and he would do something honest, like looting forgotten temples, or disarming craps.
What can I say to convince him that its not chaotic, or evil.
Wait... wait...wait, wait, wait....
Wait!
Stealing, I mean looting, from a old temple is honest, but not from a house?
How do you disarm a crap? Are you a cleaning lady?
So I have a rogue who is neutral good, my DM has a mind set that stealing is wrong, and that if I decided to rob a house, its will be consider chaotic, or evil. He believes there is no reason for my character to rob a house unless he is one of those 2. The only exception to stealing he would make, is if it some how was needed for me to survive. Such as stealing food while starving. He does not believe my charater steals for a living, since he knows its "wrong" and he would do something honest, like looting forgotten temples, or disarming craps.
What can I say to convince him that its not chaotic, or evil.
He is right. Stealing from innocent townfolks is both evil and chaotic. Stealing to survive is not Lawful nor Evil. Looting some forgotten tomb is what the game is about.
It's also a teamwork game and while your theif is burgaling houses, what are the other players doing?
Ie. You were a thief and stole without any thought as how it affected the people you stole from (AL: NE, CN, possibly TN) when you saw the damage that it did, you felt bad and decided to change your occupation (starting on the path of NG). Sadly this would mean when the adventure starts you are running low on money - thus a perfect time to join an adventuring team and search out untold riches that belong to bad people.
Of course, this would mean stealing from a house in a good community would be back-sliding into your old ways (BAD), however using your developed skills to B&E into the house a person that your team thinks is bad to get proof isn't.
Sometimes it's context.
As to good/evil, I'd say it's evil if it harms someone, neutral otherwise, only good in very strange circumstances (stealing black onyx from necromancers to prevent a zombie invasion, for instance). Now as to harming someone, there are different degrees of this, and the worse the harm the more evil the act. Stealing some silverware from a noble - not evil. Stealing that noble's ancestral swords that had great sentimental value - now it's evil. Stealing food from starving peasants - very evil. Unusual circumstances can change things, obviously.
Also, it should be obvious, but anyone you could kill in good conscience (which is most of your foes in a typical adventure), you can also steal from freely. Or mind-control them and make them carry your stolen goods around.
LE would be the source of "stealing from the person is wrong" as it contains both the self-centredness needed for seeing property as a private thing rather than a collective thing, and the idea that life isnt just a "war of each against all" rather than allowing the strong to take as they will.
CE would then be the source of "stealing from me is wrong" as it would have the private property bias of evil's egotism but also the notion of "anything to get ahead"....
LG would be the source of "personal property is secondary to the common need" as it would not have a concern for private property (as Good puts more emphasis on the common good) through orderly taxation and organised charity.
CG lastly would be the source of "personal property is secondary to the common need" as it would not have a concern for private property (as Good puts more emphasis on the common good) but done in a fragmented and spontaneous manner...as a kind of "altrustic robber baron".
What can I say to convince him that its not chaotic, or evil.
Alcohol, or else some drug which makes him forget that he is a decent human being.
Otherwise, get real.
Causing harm to another is evil. Making folks work harder, having parents sent to work houses to pay debts, seeing children orphaned, etc. is evil. Terrorising neighbourhoods, risking innocent people being accused of your crime, forcing the community to spend money on policing, seeing little Mary crying because they have no money for food, risking lives of people who might be in the house and you might need to kill/injure to get away, etc. is harm. That is evil. Good people don't do that.
Stealing for personal gain is also chaotic. It means that you are going to violate a law for no purpose other than your gain. It means you will disregard laws for no benefit to anyone else and in cases when it certainly is not necessary. You aren't going to starve to death if you don't steal. You aren't forced to. You could sell your sword and live for a month. You could go steal from some goblin caves and live for a year. You could work as a scout, or wash dishes.
If you are stealing for some reason other than personal gain, then it may not be chaotic -- say to steal from a crook to give money to the poor, or stealing a loaf of bread from a baker to keep your family alive. If you are stealing without causing harm to others... it may not be evil -- say you are stealing an stolen idol from an evil cleric to return it to the church.
Sorry, elves, gnomes, halflings, dwarves, and other good creatures, don't steal from each other. Whether they need formal laws, justice, or written rules saying this, or whether they just don't do it because it would harm the rights and freedoms of others... good folks just do these things.
Netjack,
Alcohol, or else some drug which makes him forget that he is a decent human being.
Otherwise, get real.
Causing harm to another is evil. Making folks work harder, having parents sent to work houses to pay debts, seeing children orphaned, etc. is evil. Terrorising neighbourhoods, risking innocent people being accused of your crime, forcing the community to spend money on policing, seeing little Mary crying because they have no money for food, risking lives of people who might be in the house and you might need to kill/injure to get away, etc. is harm. That is evil. Good people don't do that.
Stealing for personal gain is also chaotic. It means that you are going to violate a law for no purpose other than your gain. It means you will disregard laws for no benefit to anyone else and in cases when it certainly is not necessary. You aren't going to starve to death if you don't steal. You aren't forced to. You could sell your sword and live for a month. You could go steal from some goblin caves and live for a year. You could work as a scout, or wash dishes.
If you are stealing for some reason other than personal gain, then it may not be chaotic -- say to steal from a crook to give money to the poor, or stealing a loaf of bread from a baker to keep your family alive. If you are stealing without causing harm to others... it may not be evil -- say you are stealing an stolen idol from an evil cleric to return it to the church.
Sorry, elves, gnomes, halflings, dwarves, and other good creatures, don't steal from each other. Whether they need formal laws, justice, or written rules saying this, or whether they just don't do it because it would harm the rights and freedoms of others... good folks just do these things.
This.
Additionally, personally, stealing is always evil. Because it always harms another. I don't care if you ARE starving. You are still putting your needs above someone elses. What if you're starving, so you break into my house and steal this awesome cake that you saw sitting on my counter, you eat the cake and live another day.
That cake though was baked so that I could impress my boss and his associates at a dinner party I'm hosting. The party is his birthday. Now there's no cake, when everyone was expecting there to be one, in fact I was chosen to host the party because I'm awesome at making cake and we're impressing people. I failed to deliver, and now I miss my promotion because people think I can't deliver on my promises. I'm out thousands of dollers because you were too selfish and stupid to knock on my door and ask me for some food. I'm a good person, if you tell me you're starving, I'll not only feed you now, but I may in fact try to help more, maybe even putting you up for the night or at least giving you some blankets if you're cold and lacking things.
You steal my flatware, great thanks jerk, now I don't have the last gift I gave my grandmother before she died and have now lost something very important to me for sentimental reasons, because you wanted a few more bucks.
You steal from an enemy nation, great, now that you've stolen their resources they can't outfit their army properly, but since their king is set on the war anyway, he sends his ill equipped soldiers into battle where they are slaughtered. Good job, because you decided to steal, rather than compromise and work out your differences with said enemy nation like good people do, hundreds of people died. Or now that the enemy nation doesn't have the money they thought, they have to raise taxes to replace it, so the innocent people of said enemy nation now have their incomes drastically reduced and are now in near poverty, some are completely impoverished. Good show good guy.
Stealing is evil, it is wrong, and it should not be happening. If someone in my games tried to convince me that stealing wasn't wrong or evil I would not play with him anymore and would not permit him in my home. Because he'll STEAL from me. Replace stealing with **** and you'll probably get closer to understanding your DM's reaction to your assertions. Both are wrong in all circumstances.
Good people always consider thier impact on others before doing anything and are unwilling to make others suffer so that they can be comfortable.
Would you allow a good character to steal a weapon of great power from an warlock without having his alignment move to evil? Would that be more evil than killing the evil warlock?
What do you do with a character who forcibly takes back that which was acquired through deception in order to return it to it's (in his eyes) original owner? How does his alignment change in your game? Towards Lawful Good? Lawful evil?
Context does matter. Knowingly stealing from an enemy nation in order to derail its agenda of utterly subjugating all other nations is good, possibly neutral (self-preservation being logical but not necessarily altruistic). Preventing that theft because "it would be evil" would be neutral, likely evil, and certainly stupid.
So yes, stealing harms another. So does a +5 Lawful Good Holy Avenger with damage bonus from a Paladin's Holy Smite. The critical question here is, what is the intent? What is the context?
And someone who tries to convince you that stealing can be neutral as opposed to evil in D&D is probably not likely to steal from you in real life, any more than someone who argues that killing evil in D&D isn't evil is going to kill you because you took the last Oreo.
I'm thinking of
Bruce Campbell's character Autolycus in Hercules and Xena
Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser (by Fritz Leiber)
moving to contemporary (20th century) characters
Raffles (of the stories by E. W. Hornung)
John Dortmunder (of the novels by Donald Westlake)
for some examples.
Perhaps they merely meant to return them eventually, cleaned and pressed.
No, I was never suggesting killing or druging or raping anyone, wth, and no, DEFENATLY not towards the other Players, if anything, I would always mean towards npc, why does everyone always assume towards players......
You know how when you whisper a message back in elemtary school about wanting cup cakes, and by the time it gets to the person you want it too, the message given is something about thier shoes being ugly, thats what I feel just happend........
So stealing = no unless you can somehow back it up as good, in this case, it cant be for personal gain.
I mean, it's evil if I **** your flatware? It's kind of weird, but... :P
This isn't necessarily how I see things IRL, but it's how I'd rule in-game. YMMV.