Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 chanter_hound Jan 18, 2010 21:22:10	I've got a DM who is wanting to run a  3.5 campain that is bizarre. Basically each city has been built around some sort of gate. (Like a star gate he says.) and as a result no one uses roads anymore. As such, that means everything outside the cities is unknown and overgrown. Our characters start off as young kids, and in someway or another, go on a routine walk through the gate only to be trasported into the wilds. Now our characters are not suppose to know anything of the wild, animals, or even plants. Ranger and Druid are not allowed, and barbarian are probelly close to follow. We can't have any knowledge nature, handel animal, survival or any other ability that would rely on animals. As apprently not a single animal exists inside the city. Neither does any plants. And so we arn't allowed any animal like races, such as Lupin or shifters. Technology is that of a typical Dnd adventure, with the exception of theses gates that no one knows really anything about, but uses them on a such a daily bases, going outside the city in any other way means you are as good as dead. So warforged don't exist, neither does any sort of mechanical transportation. Because its too advanced. Now to me, this all seems like cavemen in spaceships sort of adventure. Cept the spaceship is made out of animal skins and bones and somehow magically flys through space. As cavemen we have no idea how we are doing it, but we are flying from one planent to the next. I just can't put my head around it. On one hand, it has everything of shows like Final Fantasy: Spirits within, Ergo Proxie and the like. But all of that is too advanced, so we are still running around like Slayers and the like. I can't see a world were we walk from one end of the city to the next to get to the center of the city. At least nothing realisitc in nature. If the city was ultracondensed and looked like something from .hack// then i could see it a little more. But then our adventurers.. How do they have any "adventuring" training at all? What purpose was there for them to be 'adventurers' in the first place? I'm kinda stuck between a rock and a hardplace. If i play exactly as my character should be, some punk 19 year old kid, then my character  won't exactly be motivated to do anything. I expect fully well to die in the first session, by my own devices. In order to not die, then i've got to metagame a bit. And well.. thats not good. I just don't know what to do when the time comes. I'm kinda thinking of playing just a joe schmoo who is absoltuly ordinary in everyway. Probally a pacifist as well.. who just wants to talk things over with everything we meet, since he doesn't know anything else. (I cannot see a person taking up arms in a city enviroment and not being thrown into jail.)
#2 boxcarwilly284 Jan 18, 2010 22:38:49	punk 19 year old kid??? people were considered adaults around age 14 in many antient cultures maybe you need to figure out what your character really is to understand how he would act.  this campain setting sounds really cool to me. creating a world where things are different from our own and discovering how that might change the way stuff happens. so what would joe shmo do if he found himself stuck out in the wilds sourounded by mortal danger? be scared but try to survive. the point is that joe shmo is only so if his environment allows him to be.  joe shmo imediatly stops being shmo when his environment doesnt support that behavior. this environment might bring out some of joes hidden traits.  fear, hunger, or less primal ones cockyness, uneshurness etc.
#3 chanter_hound Jan 18, 2010 23:14:08	Look, mate. I don't mean to be harsh, but in dnd, i care very little about ancient cultures and adulthood of 14. The point of the age isn't suppose to be in line with any ancient civilization. After all, we are talking about a world were there are elves that live a couple hundred years or so. And a humans lifespan is estimated about 70-100 years. Due to the influences of magic and the like, life in typical dnd settings goes far beyond the age of 30. The point of the age is that we are suppose to be ignorant children. We never grew up having to need anything that some how we couldn't get within the city. I don't think we even know that water and sunlight are used in plants. The campain sounds great at first, until you start thinking of logistics of the world. People stopped going into the outdoors because of these gates. We've stopped hunting, hiking or anything else that would require us to be outside the city. Because of the gates, we don't have animals. No dogs, cats, birds, rats, frogs ect. Makes me wonder if we even get a familiar if we choose  a wizard or sorcerer. And what about spells that need something from an animal or mention an animal. like Bullstrength, Cats grace, Eagles speldor.. Were do we get our food from? Were did all the building materials come from? Why did we even get any training to be adventurers? After all, If we started fighting in the city, All they would have to do is control the gate. We wouldn't be able to escape or anything. If going through the gate was nothing more than a routine thing, why would any of our characters have anything on them but a satchel of money and maybe a backpack? At first I was going to make an artificer who would be developing firearms.. then i wondered. Why? Why would a guy want to figure out a way to make new kinds of weapons? Especially when he is suppose to be very young. I know one person (the DMs wife) is going to be playing a flamboyant bard who will get upset everytime they break a nail or various other typical drama queen type of things. What i think i need is a visulizer. I could see this working if say, we had a high technology world. Where everything was magically automated or the like. I've got to talk to the DM somemore and try to figure out just what the heck is going on in the world.
#4 Novacat Jan 18, 2010 23:52:05	What do people eat in these cities without animals or plants? An all-salt diet?
#5 shadow_viper Jan 19, 2010 0:45:08	Look, mate. I don't mean to be harsh, but in dnd, i care very little about ancient cultures and adulthood of 14. The point of the age isn't suppose to be in line with any ancient civilization. After all, we are talking about a world were there are elves that live a couple hundred years or so. And a humans lifespan is estimated about 70-100 years. Due to the influences of magic and the like, life in typical dnd settings goes far beyond the age of 30. The point of the age is that we are suppose to be ignorant children. We never grew up having to need anything that some how we couldn't get within the city. I don't think we even know that water and sunlight are used in plants. The campain sounds great at first, until you start thinking of logistics of the world. People stopped going into the outdoors because of these gates. We've stopped hunting, hiking or anything else that would require us to be outside the city. Because of the gates, we don't have animals. No dogs, cats, birds, rats, frogs ect. Makes me wonder if we even get a familiar if we choose  a wizard or sorcerer. And what about spells that need something from an animal or mention an animal. like Bullstrength, Cats grace, Eagles speldor.. Were do we get our food from? Were did all the building materials come from? Why did we even get any training to be adventurers? After all, If we started fighting in the city, All they would have to do is control the gate. We wouldn't be able to escape or anything. If going through the gate was nothing more than a routine thing, why would any of our characters have anything on them but a satchel of money and maybe a backpack? At first I was going to make an artificer who would be developing firearms.. then i wondered. Why? Why would a guy want to figure out a way to make new kinds of weapons? Especially when he is suppose to be very young. I know one person (the DMs wife) is going to be playing a flamboyant bard who will get upset everytime they break a nail or various other typical drama queen type of things. What i think i need is a visulizer. I could see this working if say, we had a high technology world. Where everything was magically automated or the like. I've got to talk to the DM somemore and try to figure out just what the heck is going on in the world. All sound like great questions to ask your DM.
#6 DKase Jan 19, 2010 3:33:13	You really think there is no need for anyone to learn how to defend themselves in a city? Are these cities Utopias or something? Do all of these cities get along even though they are seperate and independant from each other and must rely on a rather narrow pool of resources? Are all the rulers of these cities firmly ensconced in their place and lead their people with unquestioned authority? Are there no factions or guilds competing for resources? Is there absolutely no criminal undercurrent or groups of malcontents that wrestle for control with the establishment? Are there no gangs that wage turf wars with each other? I think you need to think of your DMs city as being more like Midgar from FFVII, or maybe a little bit like the New York City represented in Soylent Green.
#7 Novacat Jan 19, 2010 4:02:20	New York City represented in Soylent Green. SOYLENT GREEN IS HALFLINGS!!!!
#8 pluisjen Jan 19, 2010 6:56:21	Check out the Humans in Wall-E. That should fit in with the world in question at least a bit...
#9 Novacat Jan 19, 2010 6:58:32	Check out the Humans in Wall-E. That should fit in with the world in question at least a bit... I hated that movie. I had much higher hopes for it.
#10 manion Jan 19, 2010 10:36:08	I'm not really seeing the problem.  The logistics really shouldn't matter to your 19 year old punk unless he's a food distribution coordinator.  Is he?
#11 chanter_hound Jan 19, 2010 10:51:52	I'm not really seeing the problem.  The logistics really shouldn't matter to your 19 year old punk unless he's a food distribution coordinator.  Is he? Logistics is more than distrubution of food. And really its not what the punk worries about, but it does effect who and what he is. As the player, I have to think of these things in order to flesh out who the character is. As the world is suppose to be so incredibly different, I need to have some concept on how the world works. Cause like if we lived underground our entire life in a nucular fallout bunker, and we were to go out exploring.. well our life would be compleatly different than if we lived "normally". (Blast from the Past) The problem with Wall-E is that the humans still have high technology to take care of the "mundane" tasks. The Jetsons had a machine that 'magicaly' produced food.
#12 manion Jan 19, 2010 11:11:31	You only really need a concept of how the world works if you expect your character to know and care how the world works. Considering you're talking about making a 19 year old punk, I would expect him to be the type not to care at all and simply take for granted that it does work. The only thing that really leaves you is cultural influence and luxury.  Cultural influence is nigh impossible to speculate except in hindsight, so ask your DM about the prevailing culture, we wouldn't be able to help.  And luxury you can make up yourself. So just decide on whether or not you want him to be obnoxious or awestruck.
#13 chanter_hound Jan 19, 2010 14:54:09	Well take planet of the apes for instence. The old one. Its a world were humans are mute, which causes serious events to happen. For example the fact that the new human (Bright eyes) could talk, caused a huge twist in the world of the apes. And then the human doll at the end that said "mama!" While the characters cared very little about the world working as it did, and took everything for granted, these were earth shattering events. (Kinda literally.) Most of the characters I've ever played ran under the basic assumption that the world was a generic fantasy world. This new campain goes against that. So what i'm looking for is some pressedent video that has something like this. Low Technology, but stay only in cities and are ignorant of the world outside the city.
#14 gmbeaulac Jan 19, 2010 17:10:56	1) Look, mate. I don't mean to be harsh, but in dnd, i care very little about ancient cultures and adulthood of 14. The point of the age isn't suppose to be in line with any ancient civilization. After all, we are talking about a world were there are elves that live a couple hundred years or so. And a humans lifespan is estimated about 70-100 years. Due to the influences of magic and the like, life in typical dnd settings goes far beyond the age of 30. 2) The point of the age is that we are suppose to be ignorant children. We never grew up having to need anything that some how we couldn't get within the city. I don't think we even know that water and sunlight are used in plants. The campain sounds great at first, until you start thinking of logistics of the world. People stopped going into the outdoors because of these gates. We've stopped hunting, hiking or anything else that would require us to be outside the city. 3) Because of the gates, we don't have animals. No dogs, cats, birds, rats, frogs ect. Makes me wonder if we even get a familiar if we choose  a wizard or sorcerer. And what about spells that need something from an animal or mention an animal. like Bullstrength, Cats grace, Eagles speldor.. 4) Were do we get our food from? Were did all the building materials come from? Why did we even get any training to be adventurers? After all, If we started fighting in the city, All they would have to do is control the gate. We wouldn't be able to escape or anything. 5) If going through the gate was nothing more than a routine thing, why would any of our characters have anything on them but a satchel of money and maybe a backpack? 6) At first I was going to make an artificer who would be developing firearms.. then i wondered. Why? Why would a guy want to figure out a way to make new kinds of weapons? Especially when he is suppose to be very young. 7) I know one person (the DMs wife) is going to be playing a flamboyant bard who will get upset everytime they break a nail or various other typical drama queen type of things. What i think i need is a visulizer. I could see this working if say, we had a high technology world. Where everything was magically automated or the like. I've got to talk to the DM somemore and try to figure out just what the heck is going on in the world. Ok 1) You answered many of your own questions in here, I suggest re-examining your statements.  However, I will point out a few things.  First, in many D&D campaigns (not sure if this is one of them) it is expected that "children" stop being such at age 13-14, and by 19, would be a fully capable adult.  When it says "Adulthood- 15" in the PHB, they mean it.  Just saying, his point is valid.  I personally find our own society's insistance on treating people like children until after 20 distasteful and demeaning, but that's another point entirely. 2) This is the larger crux of the issue. You are implying everyone lives a very spoiled existance. We will explore this more. 3) Just because animals don't exist doesn't mean they have forgotten they ever did.  The references in the spells still make sense unless animals have faded from global consciousness.  It's likely they would still know about animals, their information would just be semi-mythical in nature, and likely inaccurate (thus the restrictions on the knowledge checks).  I would rule (were it me) that mages still get familiars, for reasons I'll get into in a second, but that is in fact a great question for the DM. 4) NOW you get into the real fun stuff, and this is stuff you should really go over with the DM.  Were it me, the answer would be high magic.  Magic can create food and building materials.  Souped-up version of Murlynd's Spoon (+ prestidigitation for flavor/ appearance) probably feeds everyone in the city, and I imagine summoning/ creation spells are more than common, there are probably mage guilds dedicated to them. The bigger question, and the one you keep hinting at, is did the PCs live a life with any reasonable expectation of danger.  It is very possible, even in a life cloistered to cities, with everything provided by magic, that they did.  Thieves and assassins could still exist, corruption, etc.  Cities can be FAR more dangerous than the wilds, if done right.  Fellow humans can be just as dangerous as any beast.  However, it is also possible they did not.  What if humans are "beyond" that sort of behavior?  What if the people ruling over them created such a nanny state that they sucessfully removed the element of danger from daily life?  In that case, I agree, the PCs SHOULDN'T be level 1 standard player classes.  In that environment, one where there is no danger of mugging or theft, the Rogue is totally out of place.  If there is no expectation of a fight, no soldiers, no bouncers, etc, the fighter has no place.  In that event, (again, were it me) I would say the PCs should start as level 1 NPC classes other than warriror, and "evolve" to level 1 PC classes in the wilds, with no restrictions on Rangers or Barbarians (druids might still be a little "out there" without any tutors), as that is where they are getting their "true" education and background, albeit at an accelerated pace. That would not be the case in a normal city, however, even one as isolated as you are describing.  Even the spoiled aristocracy still values fencing, dueling, etc as art forms or sport, thieves are almost impossible to eradicate without eradicating free will, and where there are people who want to take your things, there are people who want to stop them, with as much force as necessary.  In such a world, PC classes make sense, as do weapons, equipment, etc. 5) Again, assuming the PCs have an expectation of at least some danger, it would only make sense for them to have the tools to defend themselves.  If someone tries to mug them, they need to be able to fight back.  Now, would it make sense for them to have a 10 foot pole, or a ladder, or 21 days of rations with them?  Of course not.  But that seems like an extra challenge with creating the character, more than anything else.  Anything you have on you needs to not only make sense from your character's standpoint and the world's standpoint, it needs to be logical to have on them on their way to their destination.  Were you heading to a school or such?  Then chalk, parchments, etc suddenly make sense.  Were you heading to your job?  What job is it, and what would you bring to the job (vs already have there)?  These are questions I would work closely with the DM on answering. 6) Weapons could be used in sporting events, competitions, they could be status symbols, or they could be the secret to real power in the streets- he with the biggest weapon gets his way.  If your character really is a 19 year old "child", then no, they should not be an artificer, unless they are some sort of child prodigy and close apprentice to an actual master.  The D&D standard intent for 19, though, would put you as having been said apprentice since you were 12 or 13, and after studying with them for years, by now you would be ready to set off on your own, open your own shop, or whatever else, with all the skills needed to run your business.  Artificer makes exceptional sense in such a circumstance, especially if the campaign is indeed high magic. 7) This fits with the rest of your comments in terms of tone, which is to say, it sounds like you just don't like the overall direction of the campaign, nor do you trust the DM to execute it well.  Which is fine, if that is the case, and correct me if I'm wrong.  But it is totally valid to say "this is not the campaign for me", and if, the entire time, you'll be thinking how lame the campaign is, that might be the best decision to make for all parties involved. Lastly, in terms of visualization- not the low tech you're looking for, but Appleseed is similar in concept of only staying in cities, and ignoring the outside world.  Princess Tutu has the same concept, and is low tech, but only has a single city.  Dark Sun has some unforgiving wastelands, and is low tech.  It seems to me the best way to visualize it would be as a single city alone in the wastes, where you stay inside the city or die.  There just happen to be multipe cities, thanks to the gates.  Such an existance has its own dangers, but nothing as severe as the mysterious "outside".
#15 chanter_hound Jan 19, 2010 18:19:32	Its not that I don't like the overall direction, Its just i'm trying to figure out what the direction is. Dm has just told me that the cities arn't that happy gaga lands I was imagining. There are noble houses and the like that have control over parts of the city and fight against each other, right out in the open streets. Which gives me the direction i've been looking for with my character. It gives the danger, the need for arms and armor. The need to be skilled in something even. Which gives reason to be a 19 year old child (Or if you really wanna push that button again a 13 year old) to be an artificer, as I envision an artificer being less of a magically cleanly wizardy person, and more of a dirt and grime engineer type of character. Also allows us a character who can deal with traps without having to be forced to play a rogue. I've watched Appleseed (Both of them) And Vexille, and again, they have "robots" and high technology. Which is why its hard to for me to see a world with low tech and being strapped into cities. I'll have to check out the princess tutu, as it might help me see what my Dm is talking about more.
#16 kouk Jan 20, 2010 11:35:29	I think you're making it much more complicated than it has to be. Think of it this way: The DM tells you this is going to be a campaign set in a big city. Big. Like Waterdeep or Sharn. There are guild wars, factions, thieves' guilds, Wizard academies, city guard (peacekeepers), people from different cultures, traveling merchants, Bugbear bouncers, etc. Your character has lived his whole life within the city walls, and the entire campaign easily can take place inside the city walls. There is intrigue, assassinations, corruption, inequality, different classes (of people). In real life, do we westerners think much about "where" the food comes from originally? Not really all that much, except for the luxuries of "organic" and such. You go to the store, give them money, and *poof* you have food. Where it originates from isn't important in your daily life as much as whether it tastes good or gives you indigestion. If you're in a bad economic place, you might worry about acquiring food, but not so much about the logistics of how it wound up in front of you. So your character is like that. A city dweller primed for a city campaign. Then, on the first day of the campaign, the DM says you wake up in a mysterious place, with no memory of how you got there. There are four other people too. Looking around, you're in a dark cave, but you see light in the distance. You head to the light and look outside: Instead of the normal skyscrapers and paved streets and bustle of people, there are strange alien stalactites with eyeballs all over them. Teradactyls screech and soar overhead, fighting with a floating cloud that has tendrils. The ground is covered in mushrooms and some kind of mold, and everything smells really weird. There's a creature more than twice your size standing in front of you and looking right at you. It's covered in some kind of insect carapace with tufts of fur, and both of its two heads have mouths full of teeth and dripping acid saliva. The claws on its three arms are 8 inches long and barbed. You get the feeling it is hungry. What do you do? That's all. You're a character geared up for a city campaign, but you end up in an unfamiliar and alien world. Space explorer on an unknown planet (Lost in Space, Star Trek(s)). Hero journeying through the Underworld. Undersea campaign. Spelljammer. Stargate. Quantum Leap. Back to the Future. Sliders. Fallout 1 & 2. Castaway. Robinson Crusoe. Gulliver's Travels. That's all. Unfamiliar environment, but your DM wants you to react that way about "bears" and "trees." Just think of what you personally would do if you woke up in a rain forest one day, and a snake was slithering over your thigh like you weren't there. Monkeys (or some creatures) are making loud screeching and howling noises incessantly. You don't recognize any of the plants (which ones are poisonous?), but you do notice giant frogs and insects the length of your palm. Something rustles in the bushes behind you. Maybe you were a mall security guard. Maybe a taxi driver. Maybe a white collar businessman. Maybe you were a new gang member. The rain forest is not your place. Watching Animal Planet that one time doesn't help you much.
#17 chanter_hound Jan 20, 2010 13:55:07	The problem with that way of thinking though is that humanbeings in the real world have some idea of what is outside thier city. If i was to wake up in the jungle for example, I'd know at least a little bit on how to survive. Maybe not enough to actually live long enough to escape, but more than what this character would know. In stargate, there was a character who know what was going on.. sort of. Castaway, he knew something of surival. Even in Robinson Crusoe and Gulliver's travels, again, they still knew how to survive in a basic sense. In this world however the DM presented us, we don't know a horse from a dog. We don't know that moss grows on the northside of the tree. We are also of course suppose to have a backstory on our characters. We get 1 level of a NPC class, and well, we can't all be aristrocats or guards. Anycase, I've gotten what i needed from the DM, the direction i needed for my character. We've also solved the problem of intercity travel without using animals.
#18 Ranko Jan 20, 2010 17:25:41	While I'm not in the know about your campaign or how things make sense there, the question of what the people in that particular world eat or how they build stuff struck me as a great idea for a plot in just that world. I'd pitch it like this, in answer to exactly those questions: "Funny that you ask, because, you see, you actually don't really know. You still eat meat and vegetables, but you never actually had any contact with the people who grow that stuff. The city's workforces do build buildings out of stone and wood, but you never actually asked where that stuff came from. Maybe from another city, through the gate? Oh, you did ask? Well, here's where stuff started getting strange - y'see, when you started digging a little, people suddenly got all tight lipped and wouldn't talk to you and you got into some trouble with the city watch... for some small reason, really - but you wouldn't think that was because of your questions, would you? And then, just after, you got into this accident, with the gate, stranding you in this strange place with no way to go back but through an area that you know nothing about and that could cause certain death. Imagine that. What a coincidence, don'cha think?" Sounds good to you? Still, all that being said, you should probably ask your DM your questions first and not just block him off. He might surprise you.
#19 chanter_hound Jan 20, 2010 22:55:25	Well i'm not blocking him off. We've been through the first round of negotiations. He has come to accept that there would be some higher technology put in place to replace normal work animals, as the work animals don't exist  in the cities. And some rats and the like are also occasionally around as well. Then of course there is battles between nobal houses, some right out in the open. So like i said, I've got the things figured out, and can now imagine most of the world. And so If i roll high, I'm making my gunsmith. If i roll low, I'm making Joe. And if by some decision by the rest of the players, they want me to play a little girl, I will. She would use a battle familiar to fight as her "magic" is basically innate sorcerer magic that runs through her familiar. A stuffed "animal" kinda like.. www.patchtogether.com/store/store/view/i... But she is mostly suppose to be a joke character running of the DMs idea of another campain were we start off getting killed, ressurect, and we come back as random people.
#20 mistwolf Jan 22, 2010 15:45:32	The folks in this city wouldn't be eating meat. Matter of fact, it' quite posssible they'd find the idea of eating meat nauseating. It' a good thing the DM is acknowleging the technology. You cannot live in a domed city without it. For the average person to be completely unaware of how anything works, they'd have to be as stupid as the average spoiled metropolitan of today. Seriously, the food has to be grown someplace and distributed to the masses. That alone requires technology, let alone the problem of life support and the handling of waste. Read Caves of Steel by Isaac Asimov. It's not a fantasy domed city, but it is a domed city and gives a good idea of how folks would live in one. One idea I especially like is the agraphobia the city dwellers have, the fear of open spaces. If I were running this campaign, I wouldn't toss the characters out on their ear. They'd be adventuring inside the city dealing with political intrigue, assassinations, cover-ups, deception, corruption, greed and manuvering for social status. I'd also let the characters know that the outside is deadly and the worst possible punishment would be exile and the gates have a special setting that go to no other city. What good is it to lose a world you never knew? Any self-respecting player would eventually find a way to to get outside to see if the tales are true- or earn a one way ticket to the outside because of their anti-social activities...