After the first few sessions - it seemed like we were getting screwed on xp (for example - we were attacked by a sea monster - and he was splitting up our experience with the deck hands)
Lately, the DM has been warning us to "have backup characters ready", and it hasn't been an empty warning as I've had 2 characters die in the past 3 sessions.
My last character was a beguiler with a decent Con and HP score - in the last battle before I died - He was in the middle ranks of the party, and we were attacked by Gargolyles - he died in the surprise round - put into the -15 HP range before his first action.
Before that battle - the DM warned us that "things are going to get tough". I asked him if we were behind where we should be in level, because he could give us some catch up XP, and he said we weren't. And after I died he said "I warned you."
Here's my question - who can tell me what level characters are supposed to be during the Savage Tides adventure path when you go to the Isle of Dread? We were 3rd level when we got there, and my chaacter was 4th level when he died. I expect we were supposed to be a higher level - was I right?
(frusturating constantly making new characters - and if the DM is pulling that kind of crap - I should probably just bow out of the campaign now.)
After the first few sessions - it seemed like we were getting screwed on xp (for example - we were attacked by a sea monster - and he was splitting up our experience with the deck hands)
Did the deck hands help in the fight? They get XP. I'm pretty sure cohorts, hirelings and followers all get XP out of an encounter.
My DMG isn't on hand to confirm this... But I'm almost 100% that your DM wasn't in the wrong when he did this.
It must be just an endless war game... infinite PC pawns generated to fight in the DM's torturous combat world.
Whatever happened to characters with background, with progression, continuity, connection to eachother?
G
:D
We were playing the 4th chapter of Savage Tides "Here There Be Monsters"
The beginning of the Dungeon mag this chapter is in apparently says:
"The PC's should be 7th level when they begin "Here There Be Monsters", They should gain enough experience to advance to...9th by the end of the adventure."
I guess that sums it up. This DM gets off on killing off PC's. (We don't have a single 6th level character - never mind 7th) I will not bother returning to this campaign.
Thanks for the responses.
If I were you, I'd print out all the handbooks/guides I've written, roll them up in a nice 'Bat of DM smithing +5' and clobber him to a bloody mess while yelling "WHAT'S MY NAME *****!" at the top of my lungs.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
:D
Smithing? As in, Forging?
You'd be able to make a new DM :D
Did the deck hands help in the fight? They get XP. I'm pretty sure cohorts, hirelings and followers all get XP out of an encounter.
My DMG isn't on hand to confirm this... But I'm almost 100% that your DM wasn't in the wrong when he did this.
Cohorts get XP based on their Leaders' XP. Followers do not get XP. I don't think Hirelings are addressed one way or the other.
I seem to remember somewhere, that every 4 games is 1 level-up, also he might have specific points of plot where you level up.
It takes 13.5 CR-appropriate encounters for a character to level up. Assuming four encounters per session, that's about every three or four sessions.
"Bring extra character sheets" means the DM knows you don't stand a chance and that you ARE going to die.
I encourage you to find a new DM. I hope you do not leave D&D because of this experience. A$$hat DMs are, in my opinion, the biggest flaw and anchor to the expansion of D&D. Though I'm not completely sold on 4e yet, I believe the new edition tries to address this problem.
Leave D&D?
Nah - been playing for 20+ years - this isn't the first bad DM I've had (or even the worst. I remember one who had the PC's act as the "followers" to his NPC (his character) who would basically complete all the challenges himself - we determined he liked to play with himself)
I'm currently in another campaign that is very good being run by one of my closest friends (in which I have my Malconvoker). We only end up meeting up 1/month or so - so maybe I'll DM something to fill the gaps...
Thanks everyone for the responses.
Don't play with Orcs, though. They kill the players. Dark Elves are almost as bad, they'll let you get through the whole campaign and only slaughter you in the final encounter with an undetectable betrayal of your strongest ally.
How about a pixie with Skill Focus: Plotweaving? It goes so well with the Fudge Rolls feat.
I'd say at the very least:
Str11 (rolling dice is not that demanding task, so Str is the least important of DM's ability scores, though one could use a Str score of 18 in order to bring the backpack with the handbooks inside).
Dex15 (preventing players from having a sneak behind you DM's screen requires skill)
Con18 (required for: talking for hours, drinking beer, bearing players' continous whining etc.)
Int18 (be ready for anithing, know every single rule and, at least, a +4 Int bonus is required to face the typical Rule Lawyer, whose Knowledge (rules) score ranges from +X to +Y, where X is a number between every multiple of 1000 and Y is it's double).
Wis18 (keen senses are vital to prevent dice fudging from players and a high Will ST bonus prevent you from succumbing to players' whiny requests).
Cha15 (sometimes you'll have to attract the players' attention somewhere else [like the game] in order to snatch that last corcked beer).
These are recommended starting scores.
Skills needed (these are class skill): Decipher Script (useful for: a) your handwritten notes for the game, b) for players' handwritten notes during the game), Knowledge (rules) , Knowledge (arcana) (yeah, sometimes just understanding what a player wants to do is a test of your knowledge of the unknowledgeable...), Listen (when a player tries to speak over the others in order to tell what he's going to do), Perform (storytelling) (ok, that was too much serious), Spot (dice fudgers are always there, waiting for the moment the DM looks elsewhere...), Survival (you must get every piece of pizza at hand in order to survive until the end of the game session).
Feats: 1) Endurance and 2) Greater Fortitude (as I said before: any upgrade to you Fort ST is a blessing from the Heaven), 3) TWF, 4) ITF and 5) GTWF (managing simultaneously the dice and the pencil requires skill and training; and you'll just have to keep hold over the sheets you are writing on with any trick or measure you can think of), 6) Improved Initiative (talking before the rest of the group at the table is vital, otherwise they will fireball that suspicious looking good old man who was trying to help them before he can say he was about to help them), 7) Quick Draw (you must produce almost instantly a fun factor when players show clear signs of boredom) and I strongly recommend, as class bonus feats, Weapon Focus/Speciayzation (handbooks) and their Greater versions, in order to hit the rule lawyer where it hurts (no, I don't mean you have to throw the whole MM series onto rule lawyers -even if, as an idea, has it's own appealing-, but the ability to use the rules against the rule lawyers).
Luckily, we are humans and we get extra skill points and an extra feat at 1st level.
Every time you see a guy call his wizard "God" and his warblade/crusader/swordsage/psywar/warmind/Mo9/rodentsofunusualsizeidontthinktheyexist the "Big Stupid Fighter," this guy is responsible for it. This guy is one of the kings of CharOps, really.
Before you give this guy advice, do keep in mind that he is one of the most influential users of this forum.
Every time you see a guy call his wizard "God" and his warblade/crusader/swordsage/psywar/warmind/Mo9/rodentsofunusualsizeidontthinktheyexist the "Big Stupid Fighter," this guy is responsible for it. This guy is one of the kings of CharOps, really.
It's so true. My current DM asked what my new Whisper Gnome Focused Conjurer likes to be called... "Why, 'God', of course!"
That's why when I looked at this thread, I thought: "Treantmonk is having DM trouble?!?!"
Try telling the DM that you do understand that a few player deaths here and there are inevitable, but that the campaign up to then has been far too brutal and that you'd prefer going up against some lesser challenges until you reach a level where you can return to the campaign.
Maybe - just maybe - this DM isn't quite as sadistic as some of the kibitzers here seem to think. Maybe he'll understand that you've lost too many characters too fast, and that you've been in over your heads.
IMHO it's important in a game world that some challenges be beyond the power of the players. My (3rd-5th level) players recently had a narrow escape from a 13th level wizard riding a young black dragon. They'd snuck in through the mines, stolen an item from his tower and escaped out the back way, slaying a fair number of hobgoblin and ogre guards along the way. If they'd been brave (read: stupid) enough to face this wizard, it'd've been a TPK, for sure. But they used their cleverness and resources to slip away into the hills at night, and managed to succeed their hide checks vs a few long-distance search checks from this guy flying by a few days later. Some challenges *should* be beyond the players so that they learn when to cut & run. But in those cases the DM needs to provide advance signs they are overmatched, and he needs to leave avenues of retreat or alternate ways of doing what needs doing.
YMMV, --- Wheldrake
Maybe - just maybe - this DM isn't quite as sadistic as some of the kibitzers here seem to think.
He's running a pre-written adventure path and they are still below level - all the stuff is precalculated; he would have to be denying them level up ability or not giving them the right amount of exp on purpose. Unless Savage Tide is written worse than Age of Worms - our DM running AoW isn't even giving us exp, he has run it so many times, he knows that players level of at specific times in the module always and is thus just saying we level up at those times.
He's running a pre-written adventure path and they are still below level - all the stuff is precalculated; he would have to be denying them level up ability or not giving them the right amount of exp on purpose. Unless Savage Tide is written worse than Age of Worms - our DM running AoW isn't even giving us exp, he has run it so many times, he knows that players level of at specific times in the module always and is thus just saying we level up at those times.
Are you in my game?
Are you in my game?
That's hard to answer without knowing anything more than what I said.
Your best bet is talk to your DM about your concerns in a civilized manner. Tell him you do not liek to die constantly, and that you would prefer that he toned down the challenge just a bit. It may be that your styles conflict, so you may have to find a new group.
Ditto.
The only thing I would add is, you choose your friends. You choose your group. There are others out there. Find one that suits you.
Some DMs think they have to win. Some can't handle certain situations, characters, or rules. Some DMs just aren't very good. Chose your DM wisely. Its up to you.
If your in Sacramento, shoot me an email. You can play with my group.
Leave D&D?
Nah - been playing for 20+ years - this isn't the first bad DM I've had (or even the worst. I remember one who had the PC's act as the "followers" to his NPC (his character) who would basically complete all the challenges himself - we determined he liked to play with himself)
I'm currently in another campaign that is very good being run by one of my closest friends (in which I have my Malconvoker). We only end up meeting up 1/month or so - so maybe I'll DM something to fill the gaps...
Thanks everyone for the responses.
How much have you been optimizing your character? Did you pull the 1st level Double Glitterdust trick with a Focused Conjurer? This may be the kind of campaign to do stuff like that in, if you need it to survive to the next fight.
How much have you been optimizing your character? Did you pull the 1st level Double Glitterdust trick with a Focused Conjurer? This may be the kind of campaign to do stuff like that in, if you need it to survive to the next fight.
Yeah, if you don't just dump this guy's campaign, then start swinging that +5 DM-bane cheese with both hands...
Personally, though, I'd drop out of the game and then club him with the cheese...
That's hard to answer without knowing anything more than what I said.
AOW Hyboria using the Conan rules.
AOW Hyboria using the Conan rules.
Not even close...
Did you pull the 1st level Double Glitterdust trick with a Focused Conjurer?
The what? I've found nothing...
If you don't leave the game because of this guy's shenanigans (and you might not want to leave your fellow players in such dire straits) you may need to resort to cheap tricks to survive. I'm sure you know of plenty.
1- houserule it so it does not work and your are less powerful than before you did these.
2- Say you are reading the rules incorrectly, and that it does not work.
3- Up the power of the monsters. [ I just found this one the hard way, DM liked ridicilus encounters, so when my character died I made a blackgaurd paladin of slaughter Frenzied berserker, +40 to saves, ect. Now enemies have +3k hp. and he swears he is running them "as the book"]
Before you give this guy advice, do keep in mind that he is one of the most influential users of this forum.
Overstating a little there Necroramo, though I certainly appreciate the compliment.
Yes - "god" wizards are mine - though it is a perversion (deliberate) of Logicninja's "batman" wizards, so not entirely an original idea...
"Big Stupid Figher" credit is Echodork's, though I likely brought it into common use...
Maybe - just maybe - this DM isn't quite as sadistic as some of the kibitzers here seem to think. Maybe he'll understand that you've lost too many characters too fast, and that you've been in over your heads.
I do get the gut feeling he's getting some kind of power trip out of making things difficult and fatal for party members. I can try the "benifit of the doubt" route - and likely will - though I'm not expecting much.
That's why when I looked at this thread, I thought: "Treantmonk is having DM trouble?!?!"
Yep - I have the same problems as everyone else. The only difference between any other veteran player and myself is that I've written some of my optimization strategies on the boards.
Do you maybe have an unusually large party, or could the DM be scaling down encounters? Is your strategy unusually bad? Other than those things I don't see why in the world you'd stick 3rd-levels in a 7th-level adventure.
1) Nope - we have 4 players
2) I don't think so
3) There was no time for strategy - I was dead before my first action
4) I think he's getting something out of it - perhaps low self-esteem?
The only thing I would add is, you choose your friends. You choose your group. There are others out there. Find one that suits you.
I actually had a discussion with a couple of the players in the group - we think we are going to ask him to step aside for someone else to DM (me)
How much have you been optimizing your character? Did you pull the 1st level Double Glitterdust trick with a Focused Conjurer? This may be the kind of campaign to do stuff like that in, if you need it to survive to the next fight.
The character was optimized in a practical way. Being that the DM uses only Core plus 1st generation complete series (CAr, CAd, CW, CD) and PHB II - it limits cheese options.
If you don't leave the game because of this guy's shenanigans (and you might not want to leave your fellow players in such dire straits) you may need to resort to cheap tricks to survive. I'm sure you know of plenty.
I know a few, but I don't do them. If I come to feel as though that's what I have to do, I suddenly become very able to find reasons to be busy on RP night.
However, as I said, the other players agree that this DM's campaign isn't much fun, so we are going to mention to him that we aren't having fun due to high character turnover and suggest that I run something instead.
Hate to say it, but resulting to cheap optimization tricks will most probably get the DM to do one of three things...
So true - and in most cases, I'm on the DM's side in these cases.
I probably speak for a lot of other n00bs when I write this.
Overstating a little there Necroramo, though I certainly appreciate the compliment.
Yes - "god" wizards are mine - though it is a perversion (deliberate) of Logicninja's "batman" wizards, so not entirely an original idea...
"Big Stupid Figher" credit is Echodork's, though I likely brought it into common use...
I don't think it's an overstatement at all. Your guides made my "God" what he is today... a 9th level ass-kicker of my party's wildest imagination. I can't think of a single session where the GC and the BSF haven't said, "Man, we rocked this battle as a team! Thanks 'God'".
Maybe I'm just your first fanboy. :P
So when you write some of the most astute papers on optimization in recent memory on the boards, and show such an adept knowledge of just about everything D&D, what do you call it? You say "I've written some of my optimization strategies on the boards" like it's a small thing, but your strategies are incredibly keen and you're able to fend off the critique of other top-tier optimizers (My mind is pointing to LogicNinja on the Focused Specialist thread in particular). The reason that you don't see Necroramo's Primeval Handbook floating around CharOps because I don't own all the books and know all the tricks, certainly not to the point at which I can elaborate - I can regurgitate the stuff you guys feed me about going neraph and alter selfing into a Dwarf Ancestor all day, but elaborating and creating? In my dreams... Being an adept optimizer is quite a challenge, and being a SUPER optimizer basically makes you guys the "pros" of D&D, like the people in any often-played video game that are on the top leaderboard or whatever and are very well known by anyone who's serious about the game.
Ahh regurgitation... the number of "help me optimize a wizard" threads that I've supposedly helped by spewing out TML20's advice in a slightly condensed form...
I probably speak for a lot of other n00bs when I write this.
Yes... you do.
The what? I've found nothing...
Focused Conjurer Specialist Wizard with Precocious Apprentice. You end up with two 2nd level spells at 1st level, both of which can be Glitterdust, and no CL check needed to cast either of them.
For the DM in question, I would say he is being a . If I were the player, I would ask why, but if I did not like the answer, I would find somewhere else to play.
I may not be the best DM, but I do want to have fun with the game as much as the players. I know that if I make things too hard and deadly, then I will just be a guy with a large number of books from one publisher, and they will be collecting dust.
Focused Conjurer Specialist Wizard with Precocious Apprentice. You end up with two 2nd level spells at 1st level, both of which can be Glitterdust, and no CL check needed to cast either of them.
Because of Focused Specialist's replacing one spell slot per level with 2 conjuration slots?
Because of Focused Specialist's replacing one spell slot per level with 2 conjuration slots?
Yes.
That's the idea - but have fun convincing your DM to allow it...
Oh come now, we've both seen it happen to two people planning on Arcane Heirophant builds. I've posted that trick several times before and it was allowed by the DMs they played under. Personally, if my players found such a loophole (provided it didn't go infinite or was arbitrary otherwise) I may very well allow it. Such things may be unbalancing, but only if you don't know what you are doing.
Some DMs are terrible at battle.
Some are bad at story-telling.
Some can't create inventive NPCs.
Some can't understand magic.
Some cannot run off the cuff adventures.
Some hate certain classes and/or feats
Some can't understand the rules so they make up their own.
And so on.
A DM should be organized, fair, prepared, rule conscious, creative, open-minded, quick-witted, slow to anger, and (fill in the rest). Not all DMs qualify in all these categories but we all wish they would.
I wish I had more ability as a DM than I do.
Luckily, the small group that i have is very forgiving.
What books does that trick require? And I can't find precoucious apprentice, what book is it?
PHB, CM, and CArc. Precocious Apprentice is really hard to find, all the way in the very back of CArc.
later that game my warforged barbarian was staying up keeping watch and all of a sudden i am told to roll spot, 23? fail i get slammed by 4 attacks by two water elementals and am at -8 (we were a group of 6 level 3s, the 2 elementals were CR7 together) then bam one hits me again, ok whatever dead
prior to that we were looking for a great cat to hunt for some tribe members, made listen and spot checks, 17 and 26, fail, the wizard in the back gets jumped and raked for like.. 50 damage, dead....
later we enter a room, the hall way slams behind us, walks into a solid fog, then lightning bolt, ouch ok whatever, i half move froward as far as i can, lightning bolt, someone died, someone unconscious, my turn made it to him attack missed his for concealment, he casts scorching ray hitting the unconscious guy and another low guy, unconscious guy dead, other guy at -8, i get a lucky crit hit the wizard he died, we were level 3.5ish average he was level 6
theres a ghostly boat off the shore! you are compelled by treasure to go there!!... no thanks says 5 of 6 people, but nope gotta go anyway... fight! wights focus fire on one guy until he dies of level drain... in the bottom part a monk chain hits me until i contract mummy rot... (after absorbing about 40 more points of damage than it should of had hp)
CM is complete mage, right? I found precocious apprentice. Daeva, that sounds like a monster railroad.
Yes.
Help Does Not Get XP It says this in the PHB in the section about hiring mercs. You're paying them money, or in the case of Savage Tide, your boss is paying them money.Hired
Where in the PHB does it state this? I can find it in the DMG (so I am not disagreeing with you) but I can't find it in the PHB.
Of note, Allies get a full share of XP.
Cohorts get a 1/2 share of XP.
Followers and Hirelings do not get XP.
Of course I'd love to know how a Hireling Warrior gets to level 2 then, but thats another discussion :D
Of course I'd love to know how a Hireling Warrior gets to level 2 then, but thats another discussion :D
They adventure on their own every once and awhile.