Now, here I'd like to point out that we have a couple of games going. DM 1 is running the 'main campaign' we're most involved in; he's taking a break right now, so DM 2 (me) is running the introduction to what will be the next main campaign after DM 1 is finished with his. DM 3 (the guy who's been mentioning his game) has stated that he'd like to run a similar introduction when DM 1 or DM 2 need a break. I say all of that just for some background on what's going on.
To cut to the chase: This guy, DM 3, has a penchant for running the beginnings of good campaigns that have a great deal of potential...and never get past the second or third session. After one or two sessions of the game (about one per week) he starts saying that he needs more time to prepare more for the game, and he keeps saying this until someone else is ready to run a campaign, and then he invites them to begin theirs. Eventually the original campaign is sort of phased out.
Considering his eagerness to begin this new campaign, it is looking like the cycle of premature campaign death, which we've seen about five times in the past, is going to repeat itself. I want to address the issue this time, in hopes of keeping this guy's creative mind committed to a single campaign: how can I get him to keep on track and work through a campaign from start to finish?
I appreciate any help. Thanks!
You should probably suggest much the same thing in your group, but do so subtly: No new campaigns until one is finished. Else things can get really out of hand.
And yet he keeps starting new games.
Anyway. He's *never happy* if he's not tinkering, and this mostly means that you can't rely on a game he's running lasting long or a character he's playing sticking around long enough to matter to a larger story, so you simply accept that the game is going to die and/or that there's going to be a revolving door of extras, and go on from there, or you don't play with him.
I wish I had some solid insight for you.
The only thing I can figure is, these people can only take the "pressure" of DMing for so long, and then they just need a break. Why they want to always start a new game is still puzzling.
Part of it might be the level difference. At levels 1-5, you know ALL of the player's options. You've played through the game enough, you know they can do A, B, C, D, and with a ritual, E, but F and onwards are all beyond their capabilities. For some DMs this can be frustrating, or overwhelming, or any number of possibilities.
One problem I had when I started was that I always felt my campaigns were horribly substandard compared to the more experienced DMs. I actually felt embarrassed to run my game sometimes.
One of the biggest steps in breaking out of that mindset was, after a couple of years of knowing them, one of the players said during one of my games "Dude, you're like my favorite DM ever!" The other players chimed in. Really helped boost my self-confidence.
Maybe that's what your ephemeral DMs need? Some assurance that hey, they're making a fun game! While playing, it's easy to tell if your having fun. But I know from the other side of the screen, sometimes I hear the complaints and sarcasm more clearly than the joy.
I'd also talk to them. Flat-out ask them, "Why do you quit a campaign around 5th level? They're so much fun and they have so much potential!"
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On a seperate note, the would-be DM may need help organizing. I've found that taking a few sheets of notebook paper, and jotting down a simple concept for each level, makes for an amazingly effective confidence booster. 4e's "tier" approach is even more useful, since you can plan to wrap up sub-plots around the tiers, for added drama.
The crazy thing, though, is that the road map I make at the beginning always gets thrown right out the window - but it doesn't matter! Just the fact of starting on the campaign, and saving time by keeping things in a vague, general way, gives me some goals to work for. Even if the players change those goals, I can either come up with new ones, or figure out a way to steer the players back.
Example: When I started my most recent campaign, my initial notes were as follows: Level 10: Players find and defeat the Prophet Who Shall Not Be Described, the head cultist of the cult of Mak Thuum Ngatha. Level 20: Players confront and defeat the tyrannical Fists of St. Cuthbert. Level 30: Players infiltrate Tiamat's natural world lair, find and destroy the Orbs of Dragonkind, freeing the Dragonborn from slavery.
Then I started to fill in details. So far the players have hit level 16, and the above list has been completely thrown out the window. The Prophet was confronted at level 9, to make room for a more awesome confrontation with a Black Dragon in the player's home town, with the fight marking the end of Heroic for the characters in a suitably legend-inspiring manner. The Fists have vanished into obscurity, and the Tiamat-led invasion has been postponed for another campaign in response to the player's interests. But still, the list was quick to draw up, and easy to modify, so I still have goals to work towards.
I suppose most importantly, I want to see the campaign through. I really do.
Also, I apologize profusely for inadvertently casting Wall of Text (level 6 utility).
The first suggestion I have is: Wait and see if it is a problem. If you and DM 1 alternate being ready to go, his chance may not come for a while. If he loses interest so readily, he may lose interest before he gets a chance to start, and that may solve your problem.
If he is ready to start when there is an opening, be clear with him: You've enjoyed his prior starts and were extremely disappointed when they fizzled out because you were having so much fun. You tend to get invested in a game, and it really sucks when something you care about drops out from under you. Accordingly, you want to be sure this isn't going to happen again. To that end, you want to offer your help to keep things going this time. Then, if things do go bad, he'll have extra motivation to get it back on track or he'll know that he spent his last chance.
Also, I apologize profusely for inadvertently casting Wall of Text (level 6 utility).
I've used similar methods in the past (as well as the first few games I myself considered them to be substandard, turned out my players loved them). Personally the very fact of making it through a good length campaign [about a year and a half doing once a weekend sessions] and seeing the characters develop along with the world that I created is worth changing some things.
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I seem to remember a case that my party killed a BBEG three levels before I was planning on them even knowing about him [something to do with environmental hazards and a creative way to take care of a very very heavy creature]. I was okay with this because it opened the way for a different one who is spurred on by the death of his apprentice [original BBEG].
I've found focusing on one campaign to be very rewarding for both myself and my players. If I need a DM break we play a different system for one adventure - my brother runs either vampire or Call of Cthulhu to a very high standard.
Over my years of DMing, I've realized a few things:1. DMing is like stage acting in that you feed off of your players' energy. If I have a group of low-energy players, I often lose interest in the campaign because I'm not getting energy from the players -- even if they like the campaign. An occasional "that was a great session!" or "I can't wait to catch up with that SOB villain" goes a long way toward keeping a DM's energy up, especially if your group isn't especially energetic.
2. Adventure writing is hard. Often, I know what I want the players to accomplish at the end of an adventure or campaign, but I get lost thinking of and writing all the events that happen while the PCs are getting there. I haven't found a good solution to this, but I sometimes wish my players would search out side quests or straight out tell me "You know what would be really cool, if we did X on the way to the endgame!" Of course, this probably just annoys other DMs but it might help.
3. I'd rather be a player, but I usually end up DMing. This doesn't sound a likely problem for your group, but I thought I'd mention it. I recently got one of my players to DM the Scales of War for two months at a time so that I can play. I don't think either of us could DM straight through an entire campaign, but splitting campaigns up into individual adventure chunks makes the DM crown so much lighter!
how about you guys allow him to only run an adventure. I don't know why people usually insist on running campaigns when a short adventure spanning 1 to 3 sessions could work just as well.
Thirded. Casually float the idea, and see how the what the other players think.
It started off with the standard Ravenloft-like troupe of finding yourself in the City of Doors, In this case a Wizard 'zapped' the party with a weird, semi-complete staff when they tried to stop him from assailing their starting City of Tilverton (explaining in my own way how the city was utterly destroyed)...
So there was a starting battle in which the city is assaulted by Zhent companies. And it worked a charm ... it was a brilliant battle, and I gauged it *just* right as to stretch party resources to 0 whilst not making them feel like the DM fiat of "Better start fudging hard".
I Thought I planned EVERYTHING right .... but then I forgot to calculate in the the heights of clarity and focus PCs can get (and also the depths of idiocy they can suffer) .... so I ended up having to spend sessions running a particular campaign site over and over again because the PCs couldn't suss it out, but also dropping large amounts of painstaking hard campaign writing I did because they managed to circumvent it completely.
I think the trick is merely perseverence, and trying to gauge what your players may or may not do in a situation. Difficult, I know, but if you look hard at what they have done over the previous months of gameplaying they've done it starts to make it a bit easier.
how about you guys allow him to only run an adventure. I don't know why people usually insist on running campaigns when a short adventure spanning 1 to 3 sessions could work just as well.
+1
And if he doesn't like the sound of that, you can just say "campaign" around him while you're thinking "adventure" and have something ready when he gets to the point where he needs more time.
A lot has to do with DM style, how much he likes to prepare and such; but still once a week is pretty frequent for a single, original campaign I feel.
You might consider trading off weeks for campaigns, so it's once every two weeks. Or, maybe even once a month might be doable (remind him to remind you what was going on last session).
I agree that almost nothing can make a DM's motivation plummet like the players not appearing to have a good time. Likely not the whole issue but it's possibly a factor.
The expectation is sometimes that the players are just as excited about the campaign as the DM (This idea is so awesome, surely they will see how awesome this is!) -- but that's pretty rare, if it's even possible.
I would suggest doing some heavy reminiscing on this guy's previous games, and try to remember what was going on in the beginning compared to when it started falling apart. Had the players been leaping to conclusions, or running off in directions he wasn't prepared for? Were the players defeating fights like they were nothing? Did a PC die? Did people not show up for a session or two?
Different things are different degrees of problems for different people. See if you can think of any particular trends during those campaigns.
Also, think how that person PLAYS his characters normally in other campaigns. Odds are good that he hopes for a similar kind of conduct from the PCs during his campaign (not necessarily a reasonable standpoint). Things that please him likely will have parallels in his campaign.
Although if he's for instance the only roleplayer in a group of Slayers, he shouldn't expect the group to suddenly start becoming roleplay heavy for his campaign. At least, not unless he discusses that with you first as something to try for a change.
Once a week can be a bit frequent if you're not just running out of a premade module. That alone is really stressful, to try and keep up with a schedule that you can't without sacrificing a lot of other real life things.
A lot has to do with DM style, how much he likes to prepare and such; but still once a week is pretty frequent for a single, original campaign I feel.
You might consider trading off weeks for campaigns, so it's once every two weeks. Or, maybe even once a month might be doable (remind him to remind you what was going on last session).
I agree that almost nothing can make a DM's motivation plummet like the players not appearing to have a good time. Likely not the whole issue but it's possibly a factor.
The expectation is sometimes that the players are just as excited about the campaign as the DM (This idea is so awesome, surely they will see how awesome this is!) -- but that's pretty rare, if it's even possible.
I would suggest doing some heavy reminiscing on this guy's previous games, and try to remember what was going on in the beginning compared to when it started falling apart. Had the players been leaping to conclusions, or running off in directions he wasn't prepared for? Were the players defeating fights like they were nothing? Did a PC die? Did people not show up for a session or two?
Different things are different degrees of problems for different people. See if you can think of any particular trends during those campaigns.
Also, think how that person PLAYS his characters normally in other campaigns. Odds are good that he hopes for a similar kind of conduct from the PCs during his campaign (not necessarily a reasonable standpoint). Things that please him likely will have parallels in his campaign.
Although if he's for instance the only roleplayer in a group of Slayers, he shouldn't expect the group to suddenly start becoming roleplay heavy for his campaign. At least, not unless he discusses that with you first as something to try for a change.
Excellent advice from Kouk, especially regarding analyzing where things went south on this guy's previous campaigns.
I'm also amused that some folks seem to be mapping their campaigns out for what happens at 20th level when the campaign's barely started. (Not saying that's wrong.) My approach is to plan out the first few adventures and then see which plot threads are capturing the party's attention and what desires the players have for the the future. By 10th level I MAY have an idea where things are headed by the time the PCs are level 20, but even that is likely to be vague. For me, this approach wastes a lot less energy, if the players want something other than what I'm planning.
You're saying that this guy doesn't usually get past the 3rd or so session. Do those sessions usually complete the first adventure? If yes, then it's possible he doesn't have a second adventure planned. If you don't get through a single adventure to completion, that sounds like a different problem.
Assuming he does get through one whole adventure, then letting him run one adventure (less than a month's gaming, it would seem) might be a nice break for everbody. If he's NOT getting through a full adventure and leaves everyone hanging before the climax, then I'd suggest talking to him about previous "campaigns" and asking what's up with that.
Your best option in these cases is to keep the same campaign for all DMs, (or at leasts for DMs such as him) and let him DM a 3 or 4 session sub-plot within the same campaign as the original DM, this way when he is finished the characters can continue with the orriginal plot and his DMing doesn't phase out a different game without ending himself.
I also agree with the idea to game every other week. It's really demanding to GM any game if you have a full time job or other issues in your life that take up time. I run my game about twice a month. This allows me plenty of time to create my own world and really put the extra effort into it.
Also, I have a co-gm. He's there to help generate NPCs and combats. If there are enough players in your group, you might suggest the role of a co-gm to help.
For me, i just have a hard time staying focused. This has nothing to do with what the DM is doing. Maybe i have some rare form of ADD/OCD/ADHD. Even when i build a character i like or get into a story line i enjoy, 20 minutes later i want to change. My previous DM's have been good about letting me switch character concept without putting a strain on the original story itself.
If DM 3 has problems with a campaign, show him some pre-mades. It will serve as the backbone and he can layer on his own indeas to give it a good spin. I would also tell him to be able to run it for a month or two and then he can put it on hold. Give him plently of time to prepare, and give him more time.
Just recently our group decided to rotate DM's a little. Each DM will run whatever system he/she wants for roughly 2 months. The campaign doesnt need to be finished by then, but there should be a good stopping point. This allows everyone a change of pace for a while. Last time we played Mutants and Masterminds and now we are back to 4e. After this period of 4e is done with we might pick up StarWars or something else.
I'm kind of uncertain as to how to proceed in the current situation. Our group is the only bunch of D&D players we know locally, so all games stay in our circle of friends. One of the guys in the group has been frequently mentioning that he would like to run a campaign he's been working on for a while.
Now, here I'd like to point out that we have a couple of games going. DM 1 is running the 'main campaign' we're most involved in; he's taking a break right now, so DM 2 (me) is running the introduction to what will be the next main campaign after DM 1 is finished with his. DM 3 (the guy who's been mentioning his game) has stated that he'd like to run a similar introduction when DM 1 or DM 2 need a break. I say all of that just for some background on what's going on.
To cut to the chase: This guy, DM 3, has a penchant for running the beginnings of good campaigns that have a great deal of potential...and never get past the second or third session. After one or two sessions of the game (about one per week) he starts saying that he needs more time to prepare more for the game, and he keeps saying this until someone else is ready to run a campaign, and then he invites them to begin theirs. Eventually the original campaign is sort of phased out.
Considering his eagerness to begin this new campaign, it is looking like the cycle of premature campaign death, which we've seen about five times in the past, is going to repeat itself. I want to address the issue this time, in hopes of keeping this guy's creative mind committed to a single campaign: how can I get him to keep on track and work through a campaign from start to finish?
I appreciate any help. Thanks!
Sounds like DM#3 has a hard time staying interested in an idea for very long, even if its a very good one. Given that he has a history of never finishing his campaigns i think the simplest thing you could do would be to call him on it. Let him know that while in general you like the potential his games begin with, they ultimately go nowhere, and because of that you aren't confidant that you want to invest in such a game again, especially while you have other games going on that you are invested in. My 2 Cents.