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The immobile cleric

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
idsky
Sep 04, 2012 9:42:05 My (just reached lv15 4e) cleric is in the middle of the Alliance at Nefelus Scales of War module. We're facing Nara who has a +22 vs Ref attack that immobilizes (save ends). My cleric has a lousy Ref of 21. Nara can't miss me except on a 1.

So I can't move from round 1 and if I save, I get immobilized again. I'm a sitting duck for the Frost Giant Scouts way up on the slide above who give me vuln. 10 cold (and if I finally save, I'll get hit with that again too).

So after 5 rounds at the end of the session, I've lost 120HP (max 94), used both my Healing Words on myself, haven't been able to attack anything since the monsters are outside my cleric's range and I'm not going to be moving any time soon. This isn't fun.

I had a similar encounter vs the Beholder et al a few encounters before who chucked all the other characters off the cliff, separating and immobilizing my cleric for nearly the whole encounter. Would've died there but for a lucky last death-save.

The others are trying to help, but the terrain is really stacked against us (monsters on a steep slippery slope high above, river hard to cross with slowing mist, Nara puts up and sustains an ice wall if they get near her...) out of frustration, I found the proper module map and the DM forgot to put in the underground tunnel on our map - which means we all had to cross 20+ squares as sitting ducks (not easy when you're immobilized). That didn't help.

Even if I boosted my Ref by 3, I'd still get hit on a roll of 2+. It seems hopeless. Assuming the final encounter is even worse, we're doomed! Help!
#2
idsky
Sep 04, 2012 10:47:47 OK, I just realised that the other characters should be using First Aid checks to grant the cleric Saving Throws. Just a bit counter-intuitive that the others have to give "First Aid" to the cleric to fix immobilization! The other characters should be able to get to the cleric this time!
#3
WolfLordBran
Sep 04, 2012 11:00:42 You should have at least a +3 neck item by now, possibly +4 if you found one as treasure. So breaking down your NAD we have 10 + 7(half level)+ 3(Enh) for 20 right there. If you have a 12 Dex/Int that bumps it to 21.

My suggestions to boost Reflex? Put some points into your Int/Dex, get a better neck slot item, get Improved Defenses, and keep behind allies.
#4
GelatinousOctahedron
Sep 04, 2012 11:41:52 Even a cleric should have a slightly better reflex defense than that. You should have improved defenses by this point for an additional +2 feat bonus. Its not a bad idea to have a foot item that boosts your reflex as well and some of those give out movement tricks too. There are some themes that will increase it a little as well with powers. A few channel divinity feats give out defense bonuses.

I assume you are not playing a warpriest since thay also have heavy shields, which adds another +2 to reflex.

A controller 4 levels higher than your PC is designed to give clerics trouble.  A lot of leaders have issues with self-mobility and most clerics (excepting correllon warpriests) don't have that many ways to get themselves out of mobility issues.

In your case there is also the cleric utility power holy celerity, which lets you ignore immobilized, restrained, and slowed for a round each encounter as a minor action. Most clerics don't take it, but I actually have it rated dark blue in my cleric handbook precisely for situations like what you described.
#5
mellored
Sep 04, 2012 12:02:57 Also consider some teleport items.

Or some ranged attacks of your own.
#6
Noctaem
Sep 04, 2012 15:06:42 there's also a cloak that gives a bonus to NAD's but also an additional bonus to all defenses equal to enhancement value vs attacks coming from more than 5 squares away. That alone would probably give you quite a boost.
#7
Fireclave
Sep 04, 2012 16:23:35 I'm not familiar with the module in question, so forgive me if some of my comments miss the mark. But reading the OP, the first question that popped into my mind was "so what is the rest of the party doing?"

Obviously, Clerics don't have a good ranged game. So ideally, in a situation that plays against the cleric's weaknesses, the rest of the party should be stepping up to take some heat off. Controllers and ranged weapon users should probably be able to engage the enemy, or at least tie them up enough to allow the rest of the party an opportunity to escape/proceed. And even if the party's defenders can't reach the enemy, they could still increase defenses with the aid other action.

Seeing how stacked this situation was against you, were I in the same situation, I would strongly consider a tactical retreat. Allow the enemy to follow into terrain favorable to you, rather than the other way around. Or if retreat was not an option, charging ahead to favorable ground could work. Don't forget that the Run action grants you a +2 to speed in exchange for lowing your attack rolls and granting combat advantage. But since attacking is not an option and since your defenses are so low, that's not really an issue. With an action point, you could cross 21-24 squares, depending on your armor.

And as others have suggested, you can try to up your Reflex. In addition to neck slot items and Improved Defenses, you could also try for Shield Proficiency or Rod Expertise. Also look into items that can grant you boosts to your saves or extra saving throws, such as Boots of Free Movement. Items that can boost your speed or grant you teleporation or the like would also be useful

Also, if you can brew potions, there's quite a few that could help. Potions of Resistance (for cold resistance), of Regeneration (regain hit points when bloodied, and Elixirs of Speed (+2 bonus to speed) would probably help a lot.

OK, I just realised that the other characters should be using First Aid checks to grant the cleric Saving Throws. Just a bit counter-intuitive that the others have to give "First Aid" to the cleric to fix immobilization!

On the contrary, it is a common tactical consideration to plan ahead for leader incapacitation. At the very least the party should carry a few potions. Though having one or more members investing resources into being a backup leader wouldn't be a bad idea either.

#8
GelatinousOctahedron
Sep 04, 2012 17:02:42 Depending on the cleric he built some of those don't work or work against other class features.

I am assuming he made a strength cleric with battle clerics lore from his description.  If so rod expertise isn't going to help since he won't be using one and he already gets +2 shield bonus to AC so getting a shield means no two handed weapon at the cost of two feats and all it gets him is the +2 shield bonus to reflex. Which is why he is better off with improved defenses. In short, most clerics and especially templar clerics stuggle with reflex unless you are one of the rare ones using dex or int as your secondary for some reason.

And for ranged attacks clerics have a couple that use strength. They are not usually the best choice that level, but if you really need a ranged attack something like Union of three fates works since it is a strength weapon ranged power. If he has a good wisdom score there are a lot of ranged attacks that work, using both weapons and implements. And a lot of daily powers like blade barrier work as a good "ranged" power even without a good wisdom score or a good implement.
#9
Fireclave
Sep 04, 2012 18:07:41
Depending on the cleric he built some of those don't work or work against other class features.

I am assuming he made a strength cleric with battle clerics lore from his description.  If so rod expertise isn't going to help since he won't be using one and he already gets +2 shield bonus to AC so getting a shield means no two handed weapon at the cost of two feats and all it gets him is the +2 shield bonus to reflex.

1) Techncially, you don't have to use a rod as an implement to gain the shield bonus from Rod Expertise. You just have to hold it. And unlike Shield Proficiency, you don't need to meet a strength prerequisite.
2) The OP is specifically complaining about their reflex. While a bit steep investment, a shield would help. Of course, if the OP already has a shield bonus to AC, the benefit of shield proficiency is significantly diminished.

#10
idsky
Sep 04, 2012 22:08:51 Thanks guys, I'll be checking out the suggested feats and items.
I know my reflex sucks but I don't think I can get it up by more than 3 (where it'd start to help here). 2 Chars tried to get across the river to Nara but with the mist and an ice wall popping up, they gave up (Nara left a narrow opening at the end of the ice wall left to target the immobilized cleric). Once we get the cleric moving with 1 or more first aid checks, it should be better but then Nara will drop the wall and still no-one is near her. Retreat? Maybe. But the rest of the party (relatively unhurt) probably wouldn't go for that - it's a long way back through sitting-duck territory (no tunnel). It was 1st encounter after a rest so we were keen (though we were noisy on approach so monsters got a surprise round).

I actually have Improved Defences but only a +2 neck item. It's a wise pacifist healer heavy on Wisdom and Cha - we have a Warlord in the party to help with leader stuff ( +fighter tank +monk +Wizard). At some point the DM realised if he didn't take out the super-healer-cleric then the rest of the party would always pop back up.

#11
idsky
Sep 05, 2012 5:30:01 OK, thanks for the support, I don't think my character is a total write-off any more.

Next round 1 or both nearby allies can hopefully save me from immobilization (I'll delay until they try - 80% chance of a save with 2 attempts) - then I'll run to the right-hand base of the platform where I'm out of range of Nara and 2 out of 3 Frost Giants (at least for a while) with my allies above me. That's a start. I did drink a resist 5 cold potion before session-end. If we survive this battle I might spend 1 hour brewing a resist 10.

Nefelus should stock everything magical. We can't afford +3 everything (some of us have +3 items we've found but divvying up the treasure hasn't been enough for any one person to buy a +3 item yet).

Neck: I'll try to buy a +2 Distortion cloak as a stop-gap (+2 to all DEF against ranged attacks >5 squares away) - thanks Noctaem for that one - sounds ideal - if they're w/in 5 I can do *something* about it.
Boots: I'm very tempted by Dragonborn Greaves (when bloodied: +2 speed, +1AC & REF) and Fey Step Lacings (+1 REF and a bit of teleporting) but I will stick with my Elven Boots for now (+2 speed 1/enc).

Powers:  holy celerity (thanks Gelatinous Octahedron) is awesome -- I bet nobody takes it (including me) because they choose the Cure Serious Wounds lv6 utility instead which can really turn things around in a pinch. I am seriously considering retraining though.
Wrathful Lightning (lv7 enc) looks good (allows a teleport) - but it's range 5 and I'd have to swap out Searing Light - my only non-daily with range >5.

I'm going to retrain a feat to get Durable +2 surges. I should have said this an encounter ago when I levelled up though - can't do that now.

So in another 3 levels I'll be sorted - if I live that long.

I've got an Astral Symbol (holy nimbus lv 19) on my wishlist, to get +2 on my cleric powers' range.

I think our Warlord (fairly new in the team) needs to retrain some powers to help too -- any suggestions? I'll get him to search for "saving" and "immobilization".

#12
Neutronium_Dragon
Sep 05, 2012 10:11:29 If you're level 15 then most of your gear should be +3 with a few things being +4. It sounds as though you might be underequipped, which doesn't help matters, but the other issue with Scales of War is that it's based on the old math and creature/adventure design, both of which cause a number of problems when dealing with encounters like these.
#13
GelatinousOctahedron
Sep 05, 2012 11:29:31 Astral symbol is nice. I never had a chance to use it on a cleric, but I used the shaman totem equivalent and making your ranged 5 attacks ranged 7 really does make a difference in my experience.

If you have a warlord he has very good powers that help party movement, in general much better than a cleric will. Things like reorient the axis. But I don't think they have any at that level that help if you already slowed or immobilized and they don't have any that teleport allies like cleric can.

Wisdom clerics have a few ones that help from the storm domain since those involve teleporting yourself like you mentioned, but the problem is getting in range if you are already immobilized. And they have divine intervention, but that is level 25 and also short range. Several of the cleric teleportation tricks are more for allies.
#14
svendj
Sep 07, 2012 8:14:57 If immobilized (save ends) is bothering you, just take Disciple of Freedom.
#15
idsky
Sep 07, 2012 12:45:54 Ooh, I missed that one. Thanks svendj.
#16
warrl
Sep 14, 2012 1:59:54 You could ask other party members to force-move you.
#17
tubaman
Oct 19, 2012 11:40:32 a little bit of a thread necro here....but i can see this (or similar situations) coming up all the time.

i'm amazed no one has suggested potions.

the paragon tier potions use a surge and heal the user 25 hit points and grant a save!

Now obviously this doesn't do much vs. an even more annoying enemy with an immobilized until EOT power, but it does wonders for those Save ends powers....make the save as a minor action on your turn, double move (or run) forwards.

Additionally, characters should always try to have a viable ranged attack at all levels for any build. Pick themes with ranged powers, use alchemical items, carry a +1 javelin, etc.  Any strength or Dex class can use ranged weapons easily.  Battleminds, CHAladins, Avengers, Warpriests, and Ardents have a tougher time, though they do have a small smattering of powers with ranged options (your at-wills really should do different things) as well as good multiclass options....and if all else fails, spending some cash on alchemist's fires and frosts can at least keep you from sitting out for an entire round.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 idsky Sep 04, 2012 9:42:05	My (just reached lv15 4e) cleric is in the middle of the Alliance at Nefelus Scales of War module. We're facing Nara who has a +22 vs Ref attack that immobilizes (save ends). My cleric has a lousy Ref of 21. Nara can't miss me except on a 1. So I can't move from round 1 and if I save, I get immobilized again. I'm a sitting duck for the Frost Giant Scouts way up on the slide above who give me vuln. 10 cold (and if I finally save, I'll get hit with that again too). So after 5 rounds at the end of the session, I've lost 120HP (max 94), used both my Healing Words on myself, haven't been able to attack anything since the monsters are outside my cleric's range and I'm not going to be moving any time soon. This isn't fun. I had a similar encounter vs the Beholder et al a few encounters before who chucked all the other characters off the cliff, separating and immobilizing my cleric for nearly the whole encounter. Would've died there but for a lucky last death-save. The others are trying to help, but the terrain is really stacked against us (monsters on a steep slippery slope high above, river hard to cross with slowing mist, Nara puts up and sustains an ice wall if they get near her...) out of frustration, I found the proper module map and the DM forgot to put in the underground tunnel on our map - which means we all had to cross 20+ squares as sitting ducks (not easy when you're immobilized). That didn't help. Even if I boosted my Ref by 3, I'd still get hit on a roll of 2+. It seems hopeless. Assuming the final encounter is even worse, we're doomed! Help!
#2 idsky Sep 04, 2012 10:47:47	OK, I just realised that the other characters should be using First Aid checks to grant the cleric Saving Throws. Just a bit counter-intuitive that the others have to give "First Aid" to the cleric to fix immobilization! The other characters should be able to get to the cleric this time!
#3 WolfLordBran Sep 04, 2012 11:00:42	You should have at least a +3 neck item by now, possibly +4 if you found one as treasure. So breaking down your NAD we have 10 + 7(half level)+ 3(Enh) for 20 right there. If you have a 12 Dex/Int that bumps it to 21. My suggestions to boost Reflex? Put some points into your Int/Dex, get a better neck slot item, get Improved Defenses, and keep behind allies.
#4 GelatinousOctahedron Sep 04, 2012 11:41:52	Even a cleric should have a slightly better reflex defense than that. You should have improved defenses by this point for an additional +2 feat bonus. Its not a bad idea to have a foot item that boosts your reflex as well and some of those give out movement tricks too. There are some themes that will increase it a little as well with powers. A few channel divinity feats give out defense bonuses. I assume you are not playing a warpriest since thay also have heavy shields, which adds another +2 to reflex. A controller 4 levels higher than your PC is designed to give clerics trouble. A lot of leaders have issues with self-mobility and most clerics (excepting correllon warpriests) don't have that many ways to get themselves out of mobility issues. In your case there is also the cleric utility power holy celerity, which lets you ignore immobilized, restrained, and slowed for a round each encounter as a minor action. Most clerics don't take it, but I actually have it rated dark blue in my cleric handbook precisely for situations like what you described.
#5 mellored Sep 04, 2012 12:02:57	Also consider some teleport items. Or some ranged attacks of your own.
#6 Noctaem Sep 04, 2012 15:06:42	there's also a cloak that gives a bonus to NAD's but also an additional bonus to all defenses equal to enhancement value vs attacks coming from more than 5 squares away. That alone would probably give you quite a boost.
#7 Fireclave Sep 04, 2012 16:23:35	I'm not familiar with the module in question, so forgive me if some of my comments miss the mark. But reading the OP, the first question that popped into my mind was "so what is the rest of the party doing?" Obviously, Clerics don't have a good ranged game. So ideally, in a situation that plays against the cleric's weaknesses, the rest of the party should be stepping up to take some heat off. Controllers and ranged weapon users should probably be able to engage the enemy, or at least tie them up enough to allow the rest of the party an opportunity to escape/proceed. And even if the party's defenders can't reach the enemy, they could still increase defenses with the aid other action. Seeing how stacked this situation was against you, were I in the same situation, I would strongly consider a tactical retreat. Allow the enemy to follow into terrain favorable to you, rather than the other way around. Or if retreat was not an option, charging ahead to favorable ground could work. Don't forget that the Run action grants you a +2 to speed in exchange for lowing your attack rolls and granting combat advantage. But since attacking is not an option and since your defenses are so low, that's not really an issue. With an action point, you could cross 21-24 squares, depending on your armor. And as others have suggested, you can try to up your Reflex. In addition to neck slot items and Improved Defenses, you could also try for Shield Proficiency or Rod Expertise. Also look into items that can grant you boosts to your saves or extra saving throws, such as Boots of Free Movement. Items that can boost your speed or grant you teleporation or the like would also be useful Also, if you can brew potions, there's quite a few that could help. Potions of Resistance (for cold resistance), of Regeneration (regain hit points when bloodied, and Elixirs of Speed (+2 bonus to speed) would probably help a lot. OK, I just realised that the other characters should be using First Aid checks to grant the cleric Saving Throws. Just a bit counter-intuitive that the others have to give "First Aid" to the cleric to fix immobilization! On the contrary, it is a common tactical consideration to plan ahead for leader incapacitation. At the very least the party should carry a few potions. Though having one or more members investing resources into being a backup leader wouldn't be a bad idea either.
#8 GelatinousOctahedron Sep 04, 2012 17:02:42	Depending on the cleric he built some of those don't work or work against other class features. I am assuming he made a strength cleric with battle clerics lore from his description. If so rod expertise isn't going to help since he won't be using one and he already gets +2 shield bonus to AC so getting a shield means no two handed weapon at the cost of two feats and all it gets him is the +2 shield bonus to reflex. Which is why he is better off with improved defenses. In short, most clerics and especially templar clerics stuggle with reflex unless you are one of the rare ones using dex or int as your secondary for some reason. And for ranged attacks clerics have a couple that use strength. They are not usually the best choice that level, but if you really need a ranged attack something like Union of three fates works since it is a strength weapon ranged power. If he has a good wisdom score there are a lot of ranged attacks that work, using both weapons and implements. And a lot of daily powers like blade barrier work as a good "ranged" power even without a good wisdom score or a good implement.
#9 Fireclave Sep 04, 2012 18:07:41	Depending on the cleric he built some of those don't work or work against other class features. I am assuming he made a strength cleric with battle clerics lore from his description. If so rod expertise isn't going to help since he won't be using one and he already gets +2 shield bonus to AC so getting a shield means no two handed weapon at the cost of two feats and all it gets him is the +2 shield bonus to reflex. 1) Techncially, you don't have to use a rod as an implement to gain the shield bonus from Rod Expertise. You just have to hold it. And unlike Shield Proficiency, you don't need to meet a strength prerequisite. 2) The OP is specifically complaining about their reflex. While a bit steep investment, a shield would help. Of course, if the OP already has a shield bonus to AC, the benefit of shield proficiency is significantly diminished.
#10 idsky Sep 04, 2012 22:08:51	Thanks guys, I'll be checking out the suggested feats and items. I know my reflex sucks but I don't think I can get it up by more than 3 (where it'd start to help here). 2 Chars tried to get across the river to Nara but with the mist and an ice wall popping up, they gave up (Nara left a narrow opening at the end of the ice wall left to target the immobilized cleric). Once we get the cleric moving with 1 or more first aid checks, it should be better but then Nara will drop the wall and still no-one is near her. Retreat? Maybe. But the rest of the party (relatively unhurt) probably wouldn't go for that - it's a long way back through sitting-duck territory (no tunnel). It was 1st encounter after a rest so we were keen (though we were noisy on approach so monsters got a surprise round). I actually have Improved Defences but only a +2 neck item. It's a wise pacifist healer heavy on Wisdom and Cha - we have a Warlord in the party to help with leader stuff ( +fighter tank +monk +Wizard). At some point the DM realised if he didn't take out the super-healer-cleric then the rest of the party would always pop back up.
#11 idsky Sep 05, 2012 5:30:01	OK, thanks for the support, I don't think my character is a total write-off any more. Next round 1 or both nearby allies can hopefully save me from immobilization (I'll delay until they try - 80% chance of a save with 2 attempts) - then I'll run to the right-hand base of the platform where I'm out of range of Nara and 2 out of 3 Frost Giants (at least for a while) with my allies above me. That's a start. I did drink a resist 5 cold potion before session-end. If we survive this battle I might spend 1 hour brewing a resist 10. Nefelus should stock everything magical. We can't afford +3 everything (some of us have +3 items we've found but divvying up the treasure hasn't been enough for any one person to buy a +3 item yet). Neck: I'll try to buy a +2 Distortion cloak as a stop-gap (+2 to all DEF against ranged attacks >5 squares away) - thanks Noctaem for that one - sounds ideal - if they're w/in 5 I can do something about it. Boots: I'm very tempted by Dragonborn Greaves (when bloodied: +2 speed, +1AC & REF) and Fey Step Lacings (+1 REF and a bit of teleporting) but I will stick with my Elven Boots for now (+2 speed 1/enc). Powers: holy celerity (thanks Gelatinous Octahedron) is awesome -- I bet nobody takes it (including me) because they choose the Cure Serious Wounds lv6 utility instead which can really turn things around in a pinch. I am seriously considering retraining though. Wrathful Lightning (lv7 enc) looks good (allows a teleport) - but it's range 5 and I'd have to swap out Searing Light - my only non-daily with range >5. I'm going to retrain a feat to get Durable +2 surges. I should have said this an encounter ago when I levelled up though - can't do that now. So in another 3 levels I'll be sorted - if I live that long. I've got an Astral Symbol (holy nimbus lv 19) on my wishlist, to get +2 on my cleric powers' range. I think our Warlord (fairly new in the team) needs to retrain some powers to help too -- any suggestions? I'll get him to search for "saving" and "immobilization".
#12 Neutronium_Dragon Sep 05, 2012 10:11:29	If you're level 15 then most of your gear should be +3 with a few things being +4. It sounds as though you might be underequipped, which doesn't help matters, but the other issue with Scales of War is that it's based on the old math and creature/adventure design, both of which cause a number of problems when dealing with encounters like these.
#13 GelatinousOctahedron Sep 05, 2012 11:29:31	Astral symbol is nice. I never had a chance to use it on a cleric, but I used the shaman totem equivalent and making your ranged 5 attacks ranged 7 really does make a difference in my experience. If you have a warlord he has very good powers that help party movement, in general much better than a cleric will. Things like reorient the axis. But I don't think they have any at that level that help if you already slowed or immobilized and they don't have any that teleport allies like cleric can. Wisdom clerics have a few ones that help from the storm domain since those involve teleporting yourself like you mentioned, but the problem is getting in range if you are already immobilized. And they have divine intervention, but that is level 25 and also short range. Several of the cleric teleportation tricks are more for allies.
#14 svendj Sep 07, 2012 8:14:57	If immobilized (save ends) is bothering you, just take Disciple of Freedom.
#15 idsky Sep 07, 2012 12:45:54	Ooh, I missed that one. Thanks svendj.
#16 warrl Sep 14, 2012 1:59:54	You could ask other party members to force-move you.
#17 tubaman Oct 19, 2012 11:40:32	a little bit of a thread necro here....but i can see this (or similar situations) coming up all the time. i'm amazed no one has suggested potions. the paragon tier potions use a surge and heal the user 25 hit points and grant a save! Now obviously this doesn't do much vs. an even more annoying enemy with an immobilized until EOT power, but it does wonders for those Save ends powers....make the save as a minor action on your turn, double move (or run) forwards. Additionally, characters should always try to have a viable ranged attack at all levels for any build. Pick themes with ranged powers, use alchemical items, carry a +1 javelin, etc. Any strength or Dex class can use ranged weapons easily. Battleminds, CHAladins, Avengers, Warpriests, and Ardents have a tougher time, though they do have a small smattering of powers with ranged options (your at-wills really should do different things) as well as good multiclass options....and if all else fails, spending some cash on alchemist's fires and frosts can at least keep you from sitting out for an entire round.