Backdrop: Five close friends all playing D&D. Very cooperative session, even "DM'ing" is not as structured. We've all known each other for a long, long time. We are like family in the truest sense of the word. Here is the roster:
- Nate (Me, the DM)
- Ryan (Eccentric guy, but easy going and plays a hilarious ranger.)
- Noah (Uber-serious sort of individual, but loyal to a fault. Likes playing leader characters, hasn't quite settled into one yet.)
- Amanda (My wife of 5 years [almost 6 now] who plays a dwarf fighter. Super straight-forward, just like her character, even though she barely makes 100 pounds soaking wet. Very blunt, but clever.)
- Nadine (Basically the "kid sister" of the group. She and I are especially close, because my wife and I helped her through some pretty rough situations early on. She practically lives at our house.)
With our powers combined, we are R.A.N.N.N. ;)
Situation: We've all been playing D&D together for roughly 9 months. Nadine and I are the only ones with real tabletop experience, so we all agreed that 4e was a good fit to level the playing field. It started out a little bumpy, but everyone picked it up within a few sessions, and we've got quite a campaign going at this point. Everyone has a PC, and every PC's story is integral to the overall plot. Everyone has input on their own branches, and I try to mesh it all together. My PC was originally not meant to live through the campaign, he was supposed to go all BBEG on the group later on. He's the "snarky necromancer" from my signature.
As some of you might remember from my earlier thread on "Loving Too Much", one of our party members formed a pretty serious attachment to one of the PCs, even though she knew he was walking a dark path. That was of course, my DMPC. And as previously discussed, she was determined that he find his redemption.
Here's where we digress from that thread to this one:
IRL, Noah and Nadine have become quite attached to one another. In fact, as I type this, they're out of state so he can meet her parents in the tradition of getting their blessing before a possible future engagement. That's totally great news to everyone in the group; We're all close, and they match very well. However, in game there has been a small breakdown.
In-Game, Nadine's character has decided she is in love with the necromancer who she succeeded in helping find his redemption. Instead of coming out sappy, she's used it as a reason to put her character in harm's way on his behalf numerous times. Amanda (my wife) loves the story line, and thinks the interaction between the two to be hilarious. (my character's a bit of a sociopath. Think the Dexter/Rita relationship if you've seen the Showtime series) Ryan loves the tension in-party between his ultra-paranoid ranger and the chick so seems to be befriending the least trustworthy NPC they've met in game. Nadine is a sweetheart, and her character represents her well. D&D went from being an escape, to something she has used to express the changes she wants to see in her own life. It's been funny, confidence-inspiring, and at times moving for all involved. D&D at its best.
The breakdown occurs when we get to Noah. Ever since their relationship has started, he's become more and more the "insecure boyfriend" and less and less what we've known of him in the past. While this is far from the only effect, its impact on our D&D game is what I am trying to address. You see, he has suddenly become extremely jealous of the two characters...to the point of deciding he didn't want to play.
Cue the entire group looking at him as if he had two heads.
All right, a couple beginning statements to clarify, before any potential replies:
- There is no OOC reason for this to occur--IE, no possible romantic entanglements. There is no concern, whether IC or OOC, about this except from him.
- At first each person in the group has attempted to individually tell him that he seems to be projecting his own insecurities onto the game, because he is at a pivotal point in his life, and he needs to take a deep breath once in a while. His personality makes that difficult, however.
- Everyone in the group wants him to stay, to the point of offering to switch characters and campaign completely, despite the prior time investment, but he refuses to be the cause of something so dramatic. His frequent response is "No, I know it's stupid, but...(long reiteration of previous conversations)
So, here's where you all come in. In your opinion, where do I go with things when someone's personal life comes barging into an established campaign that everyone else is enjoying? For now we all spend other time together as well, so he doesn't feel left out. Still, there's an empty space at the table we'd love to see filled. Is there an easy solution, or do we need to wait until he just feels a little better about himself and his situation? We've all talked about it on multiple occasions, but no one has been able to communicate the sentiment to him adequately.
As a final little foot note, the "love interest" sidebar to the campaign has never been even more than hinted at. Neither character is very affectionate, so while it's led more to IC awkwardness and altered motivations, it has 0% "mushy stuff". Again, the group is practically family. Typically, our sessions' primary concerns tend to revolve around trying to keep Ryan's ranger from setting random people and places on fire with his alchemically enhanced arrows.
Darn. Wall of text. Sorry!
Thoughts?
So, what I've gathered is that this player of yours is the type that has difficulty seperating his real life emotions from his in game emotions?
This may, as you have theorized, be a byproduct of his insecurities magnified by stress, in which case it would be good if you could manage to give him some cooling down time until he gets through his issues. It seems as if you've tried every wise thing that I could think of in confronting a player about his problems, so the only thing left to do is wait and see.
However, maybe it is just an innate problem with Noah that has never come up before, or maybe his issues are going to be around with him for quite a while. Some people can't just bounce back into shape. The human psyche is an unpredictable thing, and it's not something most people can change just by willpower. It seems Noah understands the problem with his thought process, but can't help the way he thinks, judging by this:
- Everyone in the group wants him to stay, to the point of offering to switch characters and campaign completely, despite the prior time investment, but he refuses to be the cause of something so dramatic. His frequent response is "No, I know it's stupid, but...(long reiteration of previous conversations)
Don't give in to this and let him make a sacrifice. You need to tell him straight up that all of you do not take D&D more seriously than real life, and you won't be making a big sacrifice to give up your "fake" lives for his "real" life problems. After all, what is D&D to you? It is a chance to imagine a fun story, but it is more important as a bond between people. When your game fails to serve that purpose, it is time to leave it behind.
As always, good luck. Hope every thing works out for you guys.
Ooook.
The good news is that you have a pretty easy way out.
Afterall, you've said that the snarky necromancer wasn't suppossed to have survived this long.
Looks like it's time for the universe to correct that mistake.
Maybe in some spectacular, flashy way that allows the necro-guy to die/vanish still redeemed.Of course this would play better if Noah were at the table....
I would remove the necromancer in some fashion, and discuss with Nadine a way to "break up" any connection her character was developing on its own.
It's easiest for everyone I think. Maybe the necromancer joins a monastery or something because of how repentant and unworthy he is. Or, he was just pretending all along or something.
If the rest of the party wasn't so invested in this character, I'd be all over this. In fact, I've repeatedly tried it. You'd be amazed at the lengths the party has gone to get this sorry bastard back. (read: planet trekking, resurrection, etc) I suppose that until another solution presents itself, I'll have to let it lie. Sometimes the DM can't fix everything, I guess.
Permanent death will work. Maybe his soul is shredded to pieces by the bad guys, and he can't ever return? It gives them another motive to get the bad guys, and helps further the plot too. Right?
Nah.
:P
...anyway...
Is just putting the game on hold untill everything is sorted out and starting a new campaign an option? If the other players would agree to it, that would be the ideal route, in my opinion.
I'm letting it go.
OOC does not belong at the table, and frankly everyone's tired of the issue. We've all expended too much time on this, and the unanimous consensus is a very conscious "insecurity projection" that no amount of character or campaign changing will help. Like I said, we're all still friends. If he wants to rejoin at some point, we'll welcome him with open arms. Feeding into the situation seems silly at this point. Just the same, if there are as-yet-unidentified points of view or possible solutions to be presented, I'll always be open to hearing them.
I think you've already got some good advice - let him work out whatever issues he's got. Keep the table spot open for him for when he returns. No one should retire their characters because he's ... jealous of the relationships they've formed. That's just absurd.
If he's a true friend of yours, tell him the phone's always on the hook, and the bar is open until at least 2 AM. He wants to get drunk with ya, call any time before then... but then move on with 4 until he's ready to return.
Ever since their relationship has started, he's become more and more the "insecure boyfriend"
and he apparently would need HER pc to die as well, since he's irritated at the whole situation.
While I do have a tenancy to be wrong on relationship match ups, and I've never met this guy in person; I just want to point out that this seems like the first step to being an overzealous jealous boyfriend or even... (don't want to say it, but I feel I have to) an abusively controlling boyfriend.
If I recall your last big thread correctly, Nadine was the rogue; and she spent time at your place after an abusive relationship; now yes cycles can be broken, and yes you've known Noah for a very long time, but somehow people who are in abusive relationships tend to find new relationships with the same tendencies.
Yes, you'll likely disagree with me, and say Noah isn't like that; but I'd rather have it said and give you a chance for a pre-emptive second look while making me look like a prick than have all of you having to suffer from what I'm suggesting could happen, happening.
Just wanted to throw it out there, since no one ever wants to state the worst case scenario. Ever.
That said, being jealous of another man having a relationship with your woman, even if it is a fake relationship, is fairly normal. Look at actors in Hollywood or community theater groups- why, just recently a man killed 5 people and himself because of 'pretend' or real romantic intrigue.
Your position in the group, as Nadine's fake romantic interest, and as the dude with all the authority, is naturally threatening to Noah. Our social conditioning and monagomous mating patterns might dictate otherwise, but biologically you are the recognized alpha male, and Noah's mate is..essentially, jockeying into position to be YOUR mate.
Looking at our current social constraints, yes, that is ridiculous and could never happen. But biologically, the right brain and our various instincts could very well be opposed such behavior.
My advice to you is to let it go, and let him leave the game for now. This is an issue that needs to be resolved with social conditioning beyond your ability to solve.
I can add this story to my long list of reasons why I think DMPCs are a bad idea.
Seriously though...maybe you can convince everyone OOC that you've decided that having a DMPC is bad--in general terms of 4E D&D mechanics--thereby avoiding making this an issue of one player's personal problem. Some people will get on board if an idea is couched in a language of general principles that obscure the messy specifics of the situation.
Good luck with it though.
R
I see on one hand that the dm or the female gamer or both could be living vicariously through their character(s) in a relationship that they wouldn't be able to pursue because they have significant others. It does strike me as a peculiar choice for the dm to present a character he terms as his dmpc into potentially having a relationship with a female gamer he is admitting as to being close to. I can understand how the male gamer might feel uncomfortable with what might be an undercurrent of emotions between his girlfriend and the dm.
On the other hand i am aware this is all fantasy and make beleive.
It could all be very innocent, but it could also be one or both parties trying to flirt or signal an intention for more.
a) The "girl" in question is like a kid sister, and my wife and I are both very close. The possibility of any OOC "romance" is completely nil.
No worries there.b) DMPC'ing is my only option, because they have insisted from the beginning that I play along with them. I hadn't originally planned to be a real part of the story at all, but it is being repeatedly reinforced by my players. That's why I play a character that has no leadership potential. :D
c) Our rogue is drawn to the character, from what my wife and I can tell, for two main reasons:
--> She IRL leans very much on us as a support system, and often times a safety net. She always plays close to our characters, and she is especially drawn to this one for reasons mentioned in "Loving Too Much" character attachment thread.
--> Her RL has changed so much and so dramatically lately, that she seems to be drawn to a world and relationships that she feels she has more control over. She feels "safe" in that imaginary adventure.
d) I have actively discouraged any of the PCs from becoming attached to this guy, but he is apparently more interesting than I had planned for. I had no idea she was going to take her character in that direction, and the "necromancer" IC-wise was incredibly obstinate about the whole deal. Also, there have been no real romantic interactions between them. It's sort of an implied thing that she cares for him because she sees something in him worth redeeming, and him respecting her for the relentless way in which she holds him accountable. Very interesting dynamic.
So, without being able to eliminate myself from play, having the rest of the party determined to keep him as part of their campaign, and having been specifically told that I can't just kill him off by each of them, that's why my position is so odd.
Thank you so much for your feedback and genuine concerns. Funny enough, I have a feeling from a phone conversation with him today that he'll be back at the table come Sunday. I think he may have just needed time to gather his wits. His life's been changing a lot too!
Though his actions may seem odd, one can't deny feelings. If he feels odd during the game, he has no reason to play as (generally) the primary reason to play a game is to have fun and be comfortable. Simply 'letting go' (like you did) is probably the best way to deal with it.
From what I read in your posts, he'll probably be back when the time is right. Maybe next Sunday, next month, or next year.
Is his problem a little silly? Yeah it is. Does it matter that it's silly? Not at all.
Really if Nadine cares about him, she should have stopped that storyline on her own. That's what you do for someone you love.
No matter how silly this is... it was still her first test in the relationship. She's failed it pretty convincingly.
You keep saying zilch nada zero between you and her in RL. Is that reiterating you are married? or for some other purpose, because we got that.
Yet you are her father figure she "practically lives there", yet you are not her father.
the other guy seems insecure, okay that seems true.
I'd also suggest if you want that guy back kill off or write out your special hero NPC that nadine as PC and perhaps in RL worships.
Best of luck.
Right at the start of the next game, have your character spontaneously explode in a shower of bone and entrails. Feel free to roll vs. the Reflex of any characters standing too close to him and have them take damage. You can then either continue the game as if nothing happened (save the bits of necromancer the PCs will be picking out of their clothes and hair for days to come), or devote the next few sessions to figuring out what caused your character to die, and maybe even avenge his death. Just make sure any and all attempts to resurrect him fail, and fail HARD. And then never, ever use a DMPC again.
That's all you can do about it in-game.
Out of game, if I were you I'd just tell Noah to grow a pair and stop having fits because you and Nadine's pretend characters might having fake sex on graph paper.
Cheers,
--Chumleigh
Here's my question: "If you weren't married, would you hit that?"
You obviously can't answer me here, your wife will see it. But answer the question in your head.
Roleplay it with yourself. If your wife didn't exist, and there was no memory of her at all in the world. Would you and Nadine hook up? If the answer is even an uneasy "no" then the real answer is yes.
End this pseudo by product of "reaching" for what can't be in game. For your friend.
And, if you truly can answer no, I salute you, can she?
I'm almost 110% sure if you had no attachments this girl would be all over you.
End it. It's causing stress in the life of a friend.
Still, I understand the sentiments and the idea that it could be a potential problem, and because of that I have offered to end the even nominal involvement of the characters. In case it wasn't picked up on, there have not even been any displays of actual affection--it's more a motivation alteration for the way she plays her character.
Regardless, I have offered to
- kill the pc
- alter the storyline
- change any parts of it to suit the comfort level of my friend
- break off this thread of the campaign
and etc. If any of these solutions had been accepted, I wouldn't have needed advice. :P I am going to be this guy's best man, and my wife is Nadine's matron of honor next year. They are quite a bit younger than us and we spend a lot of time trying to help them through the growing pains of a young relationship. My offers as such remain on the table--as I've said before, I don't have a strong attachment to the PC myself, and I have plenty of other character ideas to go with. My group will not tolerate me not playing alongside them, so I keep a deck of potential "support" style characters on the back burner.
So with the group not willing to make the change and my friend saying he doesn't want anything to change because of it, I'm left between a rock and a hard place. If I simply nix the character or plotline elements involving him, they'll be annoyed and he'll feel mortified--we've been over this--and if I don't, I have to hope that the two of them work through it so we can go back to our normally quiet and happy weekly session with him included.
Hopefully that clarifies a little... I do appreciate the genuine concern displayed by all of the posters, regardless of the degree that I agree with their evaluation.
Thanks for the input!I see some boundary issues between you and the players.
You perhaps see it that if you kill off the necro the guy will be upset as it's somehow because of him. Because you have set it up that you are an equal party member and all prior to this.
Again, it's you as the DM. Kill the PC, set it up so that the story requires it.
like the two posters before you said, you've braced yourself for this, which i am pretty sure are not accusations from the them or me.
But as was also said, They are two young people, and passions are running high. For real, i'd make a move to DM only players on the other side of the screen, because your group is treading a very fine line of either taking it too seriously or getting lost in the characters, to the point of:
A player is wanting to quit because his (betrothed?) girlfriend's PC is in love with the DM's DMPC.
That's a real problem. I game with women, and college age girls all the time, and it simply cannot go there.
Your hands are not tied. You make the decisions in game. All of them other than specific player actions.
Seems like forest for the trees here. No offense. I see you seeking help. But from where I type this, solution # 1 is... kill the guy off, and end it. Write him out whatever.
Good luck.
Seems the situation has resolved itself. ;)
Thanks for the input.
Anyways i guess what im trying to say is they need to talk. sit down and decide as a rl couple if they can handle in game relationships with other npcs/pcs. if they are confident in their relationship it shouldnt be a problem to leave you char in. As it seems as though you char really doesnt return much affection anyways.
I'd make him go BBEG...
That'll mean none of your PCs have any want to resurrect him. Something happens and he turns on Nadine's character. Viciously. We're talking like 'I want to skewer you and tear out your entrails because maybe I need them for my ascension to lichdom' evil.
If anything, might allow your insecure friend to leap in and save the day...
"Basically we've taken his Real Life insecurities, and now applied them to what is supposed to be a fun and relaxing escape from Real Life."
Right there, she's nailed the entire problem: Dude's real life insecurities are playing themselves out in the game, and he's aware of this, but it's still making his Fun Time into NOT Fun Time for him, and that's making it Not Fun Time for the rest of you, too.
That being said, from all your descriptions of his personality and actions and issues, your friend needs to relax. He sounds like he's got a mad Nice Guy complex and, very common in geeks, some pretty serious insecurities.
If he can't have fun with the game because it pokes his buttons, that's fine - but he needs to either step away from it or let you guys fix it so it stops poking his buttons, because RIGHT NOW he's letting it bug him (bad), he understands that his being bugged is irrational (good!), and he's not willing to let you change things so that he won't be bugged because that would be "unfair" to you (BAD! BAD! BAD GEEK! No martyr complex for you!).
He might want to consider therapy for his issues in general, if this is at all a common reaction. For your game, though, you, the other players, and his new fiancee need to make it clear to him that
A) they want him to keep playing
B) they're totally willing to swap things around so that the things that bug him aren't happening any more
C) it is not a serious imposition to make the changes, really, you don't mind[1], and
D) they are NOT willing to just suck it up and let him deal with it himself, because he ISN'T doing that and it's making you mental. He doesn't get to "suffer nobly" for your benefit, because it is DRIVING YOU ALL CRAZY. Not only is he not having fun, but he's making the game not fun for everyone else, which means it is *no longer* a problem that you can ignore.
And, really, D is not a big deal. It's just probably the hardest one to get through to him.
You need to make it clear that a solution IS going to be found, and that him simply sucking it up is NOT going to be it because that's what you're doing now and that's not working. You are his friends and you want the game to keep being Happy Fun Times for everyone, including him, and that means not poking at his sore spots all the time. It DOES NOT MATTER that his sore spots are irrational - what matters is that it is best *for everyone* if you change things around.
[1]: Whether it is or is not, you all need to make it clear that IT IS NOT.
Rannn out.
Also: If you don't mind revealing this, how old are the participants in our little drama?
Have you thought of transferring the roleplaying of the Nercomancer from yourself to Noah?