Charisma isn't necessarily involved anywhere unless the player thinks it somehow shields him from reprisal. Which it doesn't. If it did, there wouldn't be so many instances of PCs and NPCs killing Nymphs and Succubi.
Also, have this guy look up the definition of Charisma. It's not physical attractiveness. Charismatic people are silver-toungued manipulators at worst, and friendly, outgoing, and popular at best. When one has a high Charisma, it's reflective of a lot of social skill, which means that he generally comes across as NICE, especially on first impressions. When you meet a charismatic person, you usually walk away thinking to yourself "I like him", or something to that effect.
I agree with Kouk. This guy thinks that a high Charisma means he can act however he wants and people will accept it. This is not the case.
But you should definetely talk to the player out of game about the issue. If he blows you off and continues, then in-game you should tell him about himself, fire his character from the party, and have him roll up another character, since your current characters have no reason to play with that paladin anymore.
Just tell him to tone it down or knock it off, he's not being clever or funny anymore.
If the DM continues to allow it, find another group to game with.
Hyacinth Bucket from the BBC comedy "Keeping Up Appearances" is a great example of a high-Charisma character (of the overbearing variety) who is absolutely not seen as nice or popular.
Charisma does not mean that someone is perceived as nice or popular. Charisma means that their force of personality wins people over - but that can be negative as well as positive. Hyacinth Bucket from the BBC comedy "Keeping Up Appearances" is a great example of a high-Charisma character (of the overbearing variety) who is absolutely not seen as nice or popular.
I'm not familiar with the character in question, but the statement is accurate. Charisma is presence and force of personality, not necessarily 'being likeable'. If I may be excused a Godwinning, Hitler was incredibly charismatic, but was he likeable? Mmmno.
At any rate, talk to the player, and tell him that you're sick of his character treating yours like dirt. Being part of a team means respecting your teammates; if he's not willing to do that, Mr. Paladin can take a hike.
Charisma does not mean that someone is perceived as nice or popular. Charisma means that their force of personality wins people over - but that can be negative as well as positive. Hyacinth Bucket from the BBC comedy "Keeping Up Appearances" is a great example of a high-Charisma character (of the overbearing variety) who is absolutely not seen as nice or popular.
I'm not familiar with the character in question, but the statement is accurate. Charisma is presence and force of personality, not necessarily 'being likeable'. If I may be excused a Godwinning, Hitler was incredibly charismatic, but was he likeable? Mmmno.
At any rate, talk to the player, and tell him that you're sick of his character treating yours like dirt. Being part of a team means respecting your teammates; if he's not willing to do that, Mr. Paladin can take a hike.
Actuallly that did depend on the person who would or wouldn't like him. Some people loved him, and kinda thought of him as a "rockstar"
But the same could be said for anyone of a great force of personality. There will always be those that hate them, and those who worship them.
For example, a high intelligence but low wisdom might be a scatterbrained professor, a forgetful inventor, or some similar eccentric. Most relevantly, a person with high Charisma, but low intelligence or wisdom might be self-centered and unaware of other character's emotions or opinions.
To me, from the way you described this paladin, he fits this description. He is playing the lawful stupid paladin who acts without thinking, and people need to see that in-game. The first time he meets someone, let him have his charisma bonus, but every time he acts lawful stupid, apply a penalty to that npc's attitude to him. Eventually, he will notice that his actions might win him short-term allies, but people quickly leave him for nicer, less rude allies in the long term. If the player is smart, then he will wise up and fly right, and hopefully be a better dungeon companion. If the player is smart, but the paladin is stupid and the player plays him stupid, even the dumbest paladin can eventually realize that he has no long-term relationships or friends.
If the player is stupid, then this process might take longer. If you aren't willing to wait, talk to the player OOC. Let him know that his character is an ass, and is a detriment to the relationships of every npc they come across. Don't tell him that the PLAYER is an ass (unless you want to lose him as a player in all current and future games, and maybe this is a good thing), but tell him that his paladin character is an ass, then work together to roleplay a group talk to straighten out the paladin and make him more bearable in the long run.
Absolute worst case, roleplay hiring an assassin (or several, depending on level) and have him (the paladin) taken out. If the player doesn't take that hint that his character was so unbearable that the other adventurers had to hire someone to kill him to get him out of their hair, then his IQ is less than that of a pencil and probably has to count dice rolls on his fingers, and probably should have not been allowed to join the players in the first place. I will be the first to admit this not the optimal solution to your problem, and all other suggestions made by both myself and those who posted above me should be tried first.
And, as noted above, looks will only get you so far/short term results. I like Atok's idea that if he should be punished for being deliberately rude.
Perhaps any DCs for charisma-based rolls start out normal, but if he behaves in an inappropriate way repeatedly to an NPC, the DCs for those roles will increase as he alienates him.
Before you ask your DM to do that, though, just talk politely with the player and tell him that exceptionally arrogant and off-putting people actually have low charismas.
Before you ask your DM to do that, though, just talk politely with the player and tell him that exceptionally arrogant and off-putting people actually have low charismas.
Arrogant people can (and sometimes have) very high charisma. Off-putting people on the other hand, have low charisma.
Also, have this guy look up the definition of Charisma. It's not physical attractiveness. Charismatic people are silver-toungued manipulators at worst, and friendly, outgoing, and popular at best. When one has a high Charisma, it's reflective of a lot of social skill, which means that he generally comes across as NICE, especially on first impressions. When you meet a charismatic person, you usually walk away thinking to yourself "I like him", or something to that effect.
Not really. High levels of charisma can be intensely grating, an animal matnetism that alles people to attain and abuse social status. That frat guy that's loud, arrogant, and seemingly too dumb to live? Ever wonder why he has so many friends? It's high charisma, and it's going to get him an awesome job and a hot wife. Charisma is confidence, swagger, and the ability to evoke strong emotional responses in other people.
There's a reason "intimidate" is charisma based. Hell, most schoolyard bullies aren't actually any stronger than the people they pick on, they just know how to push the right buttons.
Yeah this paladin sounds like a bit of an ass to be honest, he's ruining the fun for everyone and sounds like he's loosing respect very quickly! Just have a word with him and the DM and something will get sorted, for the better! 
I like Damon_Tor's response that high Charisma people evoke emotional responses in other people. I suggest this emotional response should be "Blow it out your ass, Pally."
Charisma does not mean that someone is perceived as nice or popular. Charisma means that their force of personality wins people over - but that can be negative as well as positive. Hyacinth Bucket from the BBC comedy "Keeping Up Appearances" is a great example of a high-Charisma character (of the overbearing variety) who is absolutely not seen as nice or popular.
A relevent BBC reference? And from Keeping Up Appearances no less? You get a
.I think I got another good and relevent reference though that is a bit more fitting. The positive ability modifier associated with high Charisma in D&D tends to reinforce the notion that high Charisma in D&D means the ability to positively affect the emotional states of others. Since the character is a jerkass who can trick people that don't know him into liking him, I equate him more with the character of Mom, from Futurama's Mom's Friendly Robot Factory. For those who aren't familiar with her: Everyone loves Mom, but if you are part of her inner circle she'll berate and slap the bejesus out of you.
"Your words have such a strong impact on the person that you *roll dice* take damage as he punches you in the face."
have the leader stop healing him.. hopefully the leader can rectify somehow for his character that the arrogant pally is not worth the effort. have the controller continue to do what he already does , include him in AoE's. if the pally ask why he is getting no loving and all the hate; you can simplify say our characters don't like your character.
this is of course if all other methods fail and the party feels as you do, but he still wont change.
take note, i am sick and grumpy today, so this all might be the cold talking...
if the DM won't act , and talking to him does not help the problem, but all the players are with you on him needing to change.. i would advice the following (something i tend to think i would not normally advice but , right now today seems to come to me)
have the leader stop healing him.. hopefully the leader can rectify somehow for his character that the arrogant pally is not worth the effort. have the controller continue to do what he already does , include him in AoE's. if the pally ask why he is getting no loving and all the hate; you can simplify say our characters don't like your character.
this is of course if all other methods fail and the party feels as you do, but he still wont change.
take note, i am sick and grumpy today, so this all might be the cold talking...
This is a trifle extreme and would be out of character for almost anybody. Few people would kill someone, or let them die, simply over the matter of arrogance and insults, outside of sociopaths.
What *would* make sense is the PCs simply refusing to hang around with the paladin and telling him that if he doesn't start treating them with more respect, he's free to go on his merry way (and the paladin's player will have to make up a new dude).
see synonym for donkey, or atleast I think its donkey, mght be mule....
Yes, a very Chrismatic ass.
if the DM won't act , and talking to him does not help the problem, but all the players are with you on him needing to change.. i would advice the following (something i tend to think i would not normally advice but , right now today seems to come to me)
have the leader stop healing him.. hopefully the leader can rectify somehow for his character that the arrogant pally is not worth the effort. have the controller continue to do what he already does , include him in AoE's. if the pally ask why he is getting no loving and all the hate; you can simplify say our characters don't like your character.
this is of course if all other methods fail and the party feels as you do, but he still wont change.
take note, i am sick and grumpy today, so this all might be the cold talking...
This is a trifle extreme and would be out of character for almost anybody. Few people would kill someone, or let them die, simply over the matter of arrogance and insults, outside of sociopaths.
What *would* make sense is the PCs simply refusing to hang around with the paladin and telling him that if he doesn't start treating them with more respect, he's free to go on his merry way (and the paladin's player will have to make up a new dude).
yes it was a bit extream, likely grumpiness from my cold talking..
Is it feasible for the party to abandon the character? If so, then it might be time to let him know that it's being considered. Let him know that the players and their characters intensely dislike his character. The problem isn't with the player, so if his vision of the character prevents him from playing it any other way, you'd be happy to work his next character into the story.
Some players have a hard time getting a handle on the idea that some characters make for good storytelling, but really unsatisfying gameplay. Pauly Walnuts is really fun to watch, but would you really want to hang out with that guy?
Our group has a paladin with a 20 Charisma. The guy's idea of playing high charisma is to be a total ass. I get the narcasistic I'm so good concete. But he is constantly cutting down the others in the group. He is a total ass. My character a Beautiful 1/2 elf ardent wants him dead. I thought it would be fun to create a history for our characters, as former lovers. It has come up with some funny, moments. But the berating of my character at every opportunity is getting old. Also the high charisma paladin talks **** to all of the PCs. The sorcerer, another high charisma character, in the group has included the paladin in his area attacks on purpose. It's getting old and for the first time since I was in high school, I want to kill another players character.
I will talk to him before the game tomorrow and ask he tone down the **** rutine. I really think the idea of a narcisitic ass was a good idea for a high charaisma paladin of Sahanine, but a total ass is just one dimensional and plane annoying. We will see what happens. I was playing my Pc as a former lover who still maintained friendship for profit, i.e. the band. I did this mainly for the opportunity for relationship jokes. But if He is continues the complete jack ass, then I will change her motivation for staying with the group. She will become a jilted lover who can't live with out Castle. But being an ass that is impossible for her, Damon Castle must die.
"See, this is exactly why I broke up with you. All you ever think about is yourself! Always 'Me Me Me' with you, isn't it? I should have listened to Mother ..."
If he won't listen to reason, you might try nagging.
"See, this is exactly why I broke up with you. All you ever think about is yourself! Always 'Me Me Me' with you, isn't it? I should have listened to Mother ..."
Yeah we do that. Funny thing, Mom had an affair with Damon, before Damon (shiny pali) and Chaedi (My PC), ever met. Mom sent Damon to learn Halberd techniques from Daddy. Chaedi ran off with Damon against Daddy's wishes. When Chaedi confronted mom about the affair, mom says, "Oh, no need to thank me dear." Adding this twist to our background has created some funny role playing moments.
So you know, He isn't a constent ass to my Pc alone, he dicks everyones Pc every opprtunity he can. He is the lead singer for our band. Yes we go arround uncovering then thwarting mysterious monsterious plots, plagueing the local populace. Then we play at the ensuing celebration of our heroics.
If he won't listen to reason, you might try nagging.
"See, this is exactly why I broke up with you. All you ever think about is yourself! Always 'Me Me Me' with you, isn't it? I should have listened to Mother ..."
Yeah we do that. Funny thing, Mom had an affair with Damon, before Damon (shiny pali) and Chaedi (My PC), ever met. Mom sent Damon to learn Halberd techniques from Daddy. Chaedi ran off with Damon against Daddy's wishes. When Chaedi confronted mom about the affair, mom says, "Oh, no need to thank me dear." Adding this twist to our background has created some funny role playing moments.
So you know, He isn't a constent ass to my Pc alone, he dicks everyones Pc every opprtunity he can. He is the lead singer for our band. Yes we go arround uncovering then thwarting mysterious monsterious plots, plagueing the local populace. Then we play at the ensuing celebration of our heroics.
You're Josie and the ****cats?
Edit: OH, COME ON, FILTER!
You're Josie and the ****cats?
Edit: OH, COME ON, FILTER!
You're Josie and the ****cats?
Edit: OH, COME ON, FILTER!
Yes! I'm not sure how it happened? It was never planned. But sitting arround the game table we decided to become a band. We established the name of our group "Damon Castle and the Platinums" a session prior to deciding we were a band. The next session, we decided to be a band and every player chose a instrument or role to play (one player, the elf seeker Rio, decided to be our hard nosed, no non sense manager). This is the kind of games that can happen when you play with a group of gamers that enjoy fart jokes. Plus the Dm really encourages sillyness. Hehehehehe!!!!
Meaning it doesn't protect him or let him get away with being a total jerk, it just allows him to be that much more of a total jerk. His insults are far more effective at enraging those he puts down as an example.
Talk to both the player and the DM about how this effects your enjoyment of the game and how it effects the party members. If this was a 3.5 game I would point out that the paladin's behaviour was likely violating his code of conduct, but 4th edition isn't so restrictive (both fortunate and unfortunate)
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This is a trifle extreme and would be out of character for almost anybody. Few people would kill someone, or let them die, simply over the matter of arrogance and insults, outside of sociopaths.
What *would* make sense is the PCs simply refusing to hang around with the paladin and telling him that if he doesn't start treating them with more respect, he's free to go on his merry way (and the paladin's player will have to make up a new dude).
is it really extreme? Perhaps in our modern world, but cast your lot back just a couple of years and people would demand the satisfaction of a duel if you insulted them, even for trifling insults in many cases.
Generally that sort of thing was for those of above average social class where you're a lot more visible and reputation is more critical.
And it's still sociopathic, even if it's considered acceptable behavior for some stupid reason.
[
This is a trifle extreme and would be out of character for almost anybody. Few people would kill someone, or let them die, simply over the matter of arrogance and insults, outside of sociopaths.
What *would* make sense is the PCs simply refusing to hang around with the paladin and telling him that if he doesn't start treating them with more respect, he's free to go on his merry way (and the paladin's player will have to make up a new dude).
is it really extreme? Perhaps in our modern world, but cast your lot back just a couple of years and people would demand the satisfaction of a duel if you insulted them, even for trifling insults in many cases.
People are still getting shot for insults.
Generally that sort of thing was for those of above average social class where you're a lot more visible and reputation is more critical.
And it's still sociopathic, even if it's considered acceptable behavior for some stupid reason.
In the day it was not only acceptable, but something that honor would demand. In short Not responding to an insult with a duel was like publically declaring yourself a coward.
Speaking of sociopathic behaviour (which just means anti social) the Paladin's constant anti-social behaviour of constantly insulting and degrading his friends and allies is pretty sociopathic in of itself.
sockmonkey, The PCs are in fact alot more visible and their reputation is alot more critical then the general person. When you think about it they are going to be heros and doubtless very famous and well known throughout the land.
Do they really want the bard songs to say something like:
"Humbly they bore the insults of the Mighty Sir Jerk, Shaking in fear that he might smite them..."
I mean these guys are supposed to be heros of good, right? You'd think some of them would actually be, y'know, good. (I know in 4e they can be any alignment, but I'm talking about the classic white knight type of paladin.)
The hypocritical/conflicted character may have seemed interesting like 20 years ago, but at this point I really think that for someone to play a humble, altruistic, devoted knight-errant would be a refreshing relief from all the cynical stereotypes.
Our group has a paladin with a 20 Charisma. The guy's idea of playing high charisma is to be a total ass. I get the narcasistic I'm so good concete. But he is constantly cutting down the others in the group. He is a total ass…It's getting old and for the first time since I was in high school, I want to kill another players character.
Well, it could be that he really wanted to play a character who was an arrogant ass as a roleplying challenge, but it seems far more likely that this is yet another example of someone who simply fails to grasp the paladin and sees it as nothing more than a two-dimensional jerk with "leet skillz".
Devoted, good, compassionate Paladins don't make the headlines. Or forum-lines.
Touché.
Our group has a paladin with a 20 Charisma. The guy's idea of playing high charisma is to be a total ass. I get the narcasistic I'm so good concete. But he is constantly cutting down the others in the group. He is a total ass. My character a Beautiful 1/2 elf ardent wants him dead. I thought it would be fun to create a history for our characters, as former lovers. It has come up with some funny, moments. But the berating of my character at every opportunity is getting old. Also the high charisma paladin talks **** to all of the PCs. The sorcerer, another high charisma character, in the group has included the paladin in his area attacks on purpose. It's getting old and for the first time since I was in high school, I want to kill another players character.
Don't heal him/her. You're the leader. Call it Karma. During combat the player asks for a heal, just say "Don't worry about it." And heal someone else on your turn. And if they get all WTF, tell them, "Well, you called me a _____. And that just ain't kosher."
Our group has a paladin with a 20 Charisma. The guy's idea of playing high charisma is to be a total ass. I get the narcasistic I'm so good concete. But he is constantly cutting down the others in the group. He is a total ass. My character a Beautiful 1/2 elf ardent wants him dead. I thought it would be fun to create a history for our characters, as former lovers. It has come up with some funny, moments. But the berating of my character at every opportunity is getting old. Also the high charisma paladin talks **** to all of the PCs. The sorcerer, another high charisma character, in the group has included the paladin in his area attacks on purpose. It's getting old and for the first time since I was in high school, I want to kill another players character.
Don't heal him/her. You're the leader. Call it Karma. During combat the player asks for a heal, just say "Don't worry about it." And heal someone else on your turn. And if they get all WTF, tell them, "Well, you called me a _____. And that just ain't kosher."
Once again, no sane person is really going to go in for 'You insulted me, so I'm going to let you die'.
Our group has a paladin with a 20 Charisma. The guy's idea of playing high charisma is to be a total ass. I get the narcasistic I'm so good concete. But he is constantly cutting down the others in the group. He is a total ass. My character a Beautiful 1/2 elf ardent wants him dead. I thought it would be fun to create a history for our characters, as former lovers. It has come up with some funny, moments. But the berating of my character at every opportunity is getting old. Also the high charisma paladin talks **** to all of the PCs. The sorcerer, another high charisma character, in the group has included the paladin in his area attacks on purpose. It's getting old and for the first time since I was in high school, I want to kill another players character.
Don't heal him/her. You're the leader. Call it Karma. During combat the player asks for a heal, just say "Don't worry about it." And heal someone else on your turn. And if they get all WTF, tell them, "Well, you called me a _____. And that just ain't kosher."
Once again, no sane person is really going to go in for 'You insulted me, so I'm going to let you die'.
Who said my character was sane. The way I see it, if Damon Castle is constant jerk why would this woman continue to adventure with him? Friendship is out with all the abuse she takes. SO the only thing I got as a motivation to stay with Damon, is Chaedi is insanely in love with the guy. There are many tragic stories where, people insanly in love, killing the object of there affection, especially if that person is in turn constanlty degrading and an ass.
sockmonkey, The PCs are in fact alot more visible and their reputation is alot more critical then the general person. When you think about it they are going to be heros and doubtless very famous and well known throughout the land.
Do they really want the bard songs to say something like:
"Humbly they bore the insults of the Mighty Sir Jerk, Shaking in fear that he might smite them..."
Yeah, but these aren't stangers he's bullying, they are his companions and they reflect on him as well.
Anyhow, my dad related a story to me about when he was in the navy. There was this one guy who was always screwing around being an ass and getting the other new guys in trouble. So one night they all got together and "explained" to him why he shouldn't pull that crap.
He quit doing it.
all got together and "explained" to him why he shouldn't pull that crap.
He quit doing it.
I'm sorry, I can't narrow down what this might have ... entailed.
As to whether she should try to eventually assassinate him, I would suggest consulting your DM as well as the entire group regarding PvP issues, and how they wish to handle them. In my groups, PvP is forbidden although players are welcome to RP verbal insults and light slaps if appropriate. However they are also highly encouraged to mend their fences at least enough for the PCs to adventure together. Personally I am very against one of my players trying to kill off another without the victim's player being "in on it" and expressly allowing it.
If nothing else, consulting your entire gaming group on whether it's okay for your PC to attempt to assassinate another party member might give the pally player some idea of how annoying he's become. MAYBE he'll change his tune at that point.
Before it got there, however, I'd highly recommend sitting down with this player and talking the situation out, pointing out that his character's attitude is interfering with the fun of the group. I also agree that if he doesn't change his manners (and if the OP is not alone in her opinion) the entire party would be in their rights to walk off and leave the pally behind, forcing him to reroll.
One way to deal with the situation and leave the party intact is for the OP's character to fantasize about killing off the pally, but never being quite able to do so.
Seriously though, I'm really overtired of folks justifying PvP with other players because they can't do the easy thing and talk out their problems as a group. Possibly this is MY pet peeve, but I've always found that PvP leads to bad feelings amongst the players. If you're going to game together, then work it out.
....
One way to deal with the situation and leave the party intact is for the OP's character to fantasize about killing off the pally, but never being quite able to do so.
Seriously though, I'm really overtired of folks justifying PvP with other players because they can't do the easy thing and talk out their problems as a group. Possibly this is MY pet peeve, but I've always found that PvP leads to bad feelings amongst the players. If you're going to game together, then work it out.
I lke the fantasy part. I had a talk to the Paly player about his smart mouth. He had insulted another player out of game, to the point where that guy does not want to play with the group anymore. Apperently he did ot believe words hurt, so did not see how his insults could be the problem in their friendship. I told him, if he talked to me the way he talked to the other guy, I would given him cracks (I'm at heart a violent person). I think some of the reason he lashes verbally at my Pc, is because he is scared to be that way with me directly the way he is with others. Anyway I do think I take what he says to my Pc too personally. But also he needs to tone down the ****, because too much of it in game play is pissing me off. I think when we return to that game, where playing different Pcs in another DMs game, I will bring that up. I to am not down with PvP. First I will try not to take the issue to personal, but he has got to watch his mouth on the table.
Perhaps it's him who should leave the group if he can't learn to shape up and act like a decent human in a social environment.
If he has Asperger's or something though, I think it would help him to do some research on more appropriate forms of interpersonal relations.
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One way to deal with the situation and leave the party intact is for the OP's character to fantasize about killing off the pally, but never being quite able to do so.
Seriously though, I'm really overtired of folks justifying PvP with other players because they can't do the easy thing and talk out their problems as a group. Possibly this is MY pet peeve, but I've always found that PvP leads to bad feelings amongst the players. If you're going to game together, then work it out.
I lke the fantasy part. I had a talk to the Paly player about his smart mouth. He had insulted another player out of game, to the point where that guy does not want to play with the group anymore. Apperently he did ot believe words hurt, so did not see how his insults could be the problem in their friendship. I told him, if he talked to me the way he talked to the other guy, I would given him cracks (I'm at heart a violent person). I think some of the reason he lashes verbally at my Pc, is because he is scared to be that way with me directly the way he is with others. Anyway I do think I take what he says to my Pc too personally. But also he needs to tone down the ****, because too much of it in game play is pissing me off. I think when we return to that game, where playing different Pcs in another DMs game, I will bring that up. I to am not down with PvP. First I will try not to take the issue to personal, but he has got to watch his mouth on the table.
Although it's always hard for us bystanders to "really" know what's going on...and thus why we often take Devils Avocate postitions, it does seem like there is a definite problem with this player. Now since we don't know how old your group is yet, it may be that he's just young and an ass. Or he could be old an an ass (no less annoying, somewhat less forgiveable).
I will agree that you don't have to deal with verbal abuse while playing what should be an enjoyable game.
In the most part we usually dealt with players like this by kicking them out of the house bodily. D&D is supposed to be fun, and we have little room for obnoxious people. I try to be very emotionally generous/passive BECAUSE like you I am not a very naturally gentle person. (So I go overboard in the other direction.) But sometimes...
Most importantly, if this person is making life unhappy for the majority of players its time to either have a serious talk or show him the door.