Too good for own good? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Harvengure1 Nov 16, 2013 20:45:18	First, I'd like to open by saying that yes I wish simply bringing the issue up with the gm and discussing it were an option but I feel that that would simply go poorly. If simple and honest communication were an option as often as it is suggested, the world would be a much better place and I wish it were. With that said, on to the problem. I've an issue concerning my gm where I seem to have inspired some sort of ire from my GM. Whether it is intentional or not, I have not been able to discern. The issue though is is that I play a hybrid pali/cleric (multiclassed into bard) who loots the least, and is kept in a state of virtual brokeness compared to the other players due to his constantly giving (both to the fantasy world around him as well as the players during their hard times). Yet it seems that when I do attempt to do things that I perceive to be on the same level and style of action as other characters, I find I am time and again met with much more resistance or many more steps to achieve these goals. Examples: ● Property ownership as a means of generating income has become rather central to the campaign as a means of keeping the players not wanting for things that do not require adventuring (and for the most part it seems to be working well for the group). Using our one player/character who is usually the quickest to loot and think exclusively of his own benefit before the party's as an example; properties have not only been easier to acquire (not even needing a roll in some cases) but the income they generate has also tended to be higher. Fewer troubles in keeping the places running as well, not having them yet been subject to theft, vandalism, and monster raids as has been my personal experience. ● Looting: As a whole, the majority of the party is rather quick to loot...but two of our players especially so it seems, only to have the loot split between the two should they feel they both jumped on it rather quick. This leaves the rest of us further behind in comparison as efforts to voice concern on this issue seem to be met with non-response. When my attempts to loot are successful, they've consistently resulted in a fair bit less then is typically found by our two primary looters. Specific examples include not finding gemstones when several had been handed out in a specific session, finding literally 1/3 the amount of coinage, still being stuck with a mundane mace at paragon level after several attempts to get an upgrade. ● NPC reactions: Despite being a paladin/cleric hybrid who's multiclassed as a bard and has a knight hospitaller theme, I find getting friendly behaviour from NPCs to be surprisingly hard in comparison (again, oft needing rolls vs not as is the case with the other players) to our pirate merc character and our casually criminal ranger. In all of this I might assume I am simply playing the wrong type of character for the style the campaign is meant to have, but the DM also consistently places us in adventures that seem to depend on our doing good for others; tasks much more in line with my character then the others. It has left me frustrated and wondering why it seems I am being punished. As I've said, I don't feel comfortable simply bringing up the topic as I don't imagine that it would be well received. This leaves me unsure as to how to go about dealing with the situation, be it in character or out.
#2 warghoul Nov 16, 2013 22:17:05	If you cant hash this out out of game your S.O.L I think. Its not a character issue its a GM and players being lame to say the least.
#3 Harvengure1 Nov 16, 2013 22:29:31	Having been gaming with this GM for over a year and never having had these issues until recently, I wasn't sure how to percieve it. Initially I thought it was just me but as time has passed I've observed that it is indeed not my imagination. Hopefully some inspiration will arise from this topic as how to deal with it since plain and open communication, I feel, would just rub the GM the wrong way given the subject. It's not that he is a GM who can not accept criticism but in this case....
#4 Centauri Nov 17, 2013 0:55:15	Communication isn't always possible, but it's possible much more often than it's tried. I don't know what to advise, because I don't know what's going on, and I don't think you do either. Key to all this would be figuring that out. I'm also not sure what the effect is on gameplay. You say several of you are "broken" or behind the curve. A mundane mace at paragon should put you at least two points of attack bonus behind where you should be, which I think is enough to notice. If the DM creates encounters with a particular outcome in mind, he should be finding it harder for the party to achieve that outcome, or at least harder for some of the PCs to contribute, so causing you to be behind should not be to his advantage in any way. It's odd. You're going to have to talk with him. If it rubs him the wrong way, I think that's a sign that you shouldn't be playing with this guy. Even feeling that it would rub the guy the wrong way would be enough to make me want to leave the game. Good luck.
#5 Winterleaf Nov 18, 2013 2:08:04	Talk with your GM. If you can get them fact to face, buy them a coffee/pop and begin with 'I was hoping you could give me some advice" and go from there. Some thoughts from my perspective on your dilemma ( and keep in mind, I tend to give the benefit of the doubt a lot): You play your character as a generous, giving person. A couple ideas on why you have less loot: Your GM is punishing you. Your GM may have the impression that your PC doesn't care about loot/riches, and as a result doesn't give you any phat loot. Or he may be frustrated with you finding ways to give away the riches he comes up with for you, and as a result just doesnt bother any more. If the other players get visibly excited about treasure, and you don't, your GM may simply have (knowingly or not) focused loot on people who seem to care a lot about it. I presume your Paladin/Cleric/bard has a high Cha, with all the expected Cha skills like Diplomacy, Intimidation, etc. Yet your character has trouble getting friendly reactions, needing rolls where other characters dont seem to. A couple of possibilities: Your GM is punishing you. Your GM is trying to make you feel useful by making you roll in social situations, thus (in his eyes) giving you a sense of accomplishment when you succeed. He lets PC's that aren't good at Charisma-based skill role-play through them, but because that is your character's mechanical forte, he makes you roll-play instead. Kind of like how to save time the GM will tell the players all about the lineage of Baron von Ecchs, but if one PC has History as a trained skill, they'll have to roll the dice for success instead. Hopefully, its not the punishing thing. If you've been playing with him for a year, you probably have a decent idea of how your interactions with him flow. Does he snap at you? Talk over your turn? Roll his eyes at your character ideas? Or is he a pretty decent GM overall, treating you with respect and trying to keep you entertained? If you get a good vibe from him, your issues may turn out to be simple miscommunications or misperceptions. The problem with skills and roll-playing vs role-playing has come up in games I've played before, and sometimes GM don't know they're doing it. He might be persuaded to lay off the die rolls unless there's a specific reason NPC's would be hostile and its a plot point that they need to be convinced. Having everyone be hostile just so you can roll to make them friendly unfairly penalizes your PC for no good reason. Good luck.
#6 RedSiegfried Nov 18, 2013 9:19:08	Talk to your DM. The fact that you immediately excluded talking to your DM as a possibility tells me the problem is that you're afraid to confront people and to meet your own needs and instead you expect others to know what you need out of the game to make it fun for you, and simply give it to you without you having to ask. Stop that behavior right now. The type of character you're playing has nothing to do with it. How you play it has everything to do with it. It's you. Sure, the DM may be screwing you for some reason, intentionally or not, but he's not going to stop until you make him stop. First of all, you can start by taking your fair share of the loot. There's nothing that says you can't. If you want it, and it's fair, take it. If others try to stop you from having a fair share, tell them to stop trying to screw you over. If they take more than their fair share, back them down. If you want, talk to the group and make a deal that all loot is divided evenly. But if you can't communicate face to face with your DM about the problems you have, you shouldn't play Dungeons and Dragons with him. THERE IS NO GOOD REASON WHY YOU CAN'T DISCUSS THIS WITH YOUR DM. ANY REASON YOU COME UP WITH IS JUST MAKING EXCUSES. There's no way of working around him covertly that is going to get what you want. Making covert contracts where you act a certain way and hope the DM will respond by acting the way you want him to won't work, and it's manipulative anyway. Either man up and talk to the DM or just leave now and save yourself and the rest of the group the grief of dealing with your dissatisfaction. Look at what others have written about what you might want to say, be mature, patient and polite, and be prepared to compromise to get some of what you want as long as he compromises too. Also be prepared to get shut down. If the DM won't hear your concerns and make an attempt to make things more fun for you, then you can either continue to put up with it or just leave. But whatever you do, don't resort to passive aggressive tactics or covert means to manipulate the DM's behavior. It won't work and it's not healthy behavior anyway. Please report back here on your success with making the game more enjoyable for yourself. The little secret is that if you're enjoying the game more, so will everyone else. Good luck!
#7 Krusk Nov 18, 2013 15:48:21	First, I'd like to open by saying that yes I wish simply bringing the issue up with the gm and discussing it were an option but I feel that that would simply go poorly. If simple and honest communication were an option as often as it is suggested, the world would be a much better place and I wish it were.
#8 Scatterbrained Nov 18, 2013 19:16:48	Yeah I have to agree that you have basically those two choices. You keep trying to find a way to solve it in character, and that's just not going to work. Personally I don't think it's a huge loss for you to stop playing in a game where you're treated unfairly and don't seem to be having much fun. I wouldn't enjoy a game with a DM that was both unbalanced and hard to communicate with. It's a bummer, but maybe you can put the energy into finding a better group.
#9 RedSiegfried Nov 18, 2013 20:59:55	The only other thing I would say as follow up is this: quitting is easy. Trying to change things to make them better for yourself is hard. But if you enjoy playing this game, you should stick with it and at least give changing things a try before quitting. If you don't at least give it a try, you will probably find that you have the same problems with other groups in the future, and nothing will change.
#10 Harvengure1 Nov 28, 2013 2:14:23	Having others confirm that I am not crazy and that this was, indeed, unfair treatment was nice. I honestly wasn't sure if it was the case or if I was seeing something not there. Feeling that speaking with the GM directly on the issue would simply ruffle his dander, I have taken another route I hope will resolve the issue; I am DMing my own campaign with my DM as a player. The hope is to 'lead' by example.
#11 Centauri Nov 28, 2013 2:38:49	Harvengure1 wrote:
#12 Krusk Nov 28, 2013 7:50:59	If you are leading by example, make sure to point out differences and to explain why you are doing it differently. You should also verbally confirm with the other players that they prefer this method. "I know last game we did this, but I'd prefer to do this. I think its ____. What do you guys think?".
(Reply to #10) RedSiegfried	You may find yourself tempted to take out some resentment on the former DM. Do't be surprised if this happens; it happens to everyone sometimes. Don't do it; lead by example. However, don't let him buffalo you around either just because he was the DM in a game you're not playing anymore. He gets an equal say in the group, just like everyone else. Good luck.
#14 Noon Dec 26, 2013 0:13:39	I suspect the other players are go-getters. As players they do stuff in play in order to get stuff. While you expect, because of the background and bard and such, to get given an equal amount not because of what you're doing as a player in the moment, but because of your character sheet. You're GM just sees you sitting passively, wanting NPC's to just be friends from the get go, and is less inclined to have passivity gain as much. Or to be more exact, how do you imagine this working - your stats determine what you get? For example, if your stats were better than theirs, then you'd get more than them? Or do you expect everyone to get the same amount, no matter what your character does or doesn't do?
#15 Man_in_the_Funny_Hat Jan 17, 2014 15:36:48	Does your DM read minds? No? Few do. So how is it you expect him to spontaneously realize his errors and make amends and corrections? If YOU choose not to talk about it you are relieving the DM of a great deal of responsibility. Yes he shouldn't be doing it in the first place but if you won't say anything you sorta deserve what you get from that point on. Suppose you do come up with some way to rub his nose in what he's doing. Think he'll react any better? You have the obligation to yourself AND to the DM to let him know that you are unhappy and WHY. Your move should be dictated by his reaction to that - not by your fear of what his reaction MIGHT be.
(Reply to #15) Storyteller-Zero	Man_in_the_Funny_Hat wrote:
#17 Man_in_the_Funny_Hat Jan 24, 2014 8:07:55	Storyteller-Zero wrote:

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

Harvengure1

Nov 16, 2013 20:45:18

First, I'd like to open by saying that yes I wish simply bringing the issue up with the gm and discussing it were an option but I feel that that would simply go poorly. If simple and honest communication were an option as often as it is suggested, the world would be a much better place and I wish it were.

With that said, on to the problem. I've an issue concerning my gm where I seem to have inspired some sort of ire from my GM. Whether it is intentional or not, I have not been able to discern. The issue though is is that I play a hybrid pali/cleric (multiclassed into bard) who loots the least, and is kept in a state of virtual brokeness compared to the other players due to his constantly giving (both to the fantasy world around him as well as the players during their hard times).

Yet it seems that when I do attempt to do things that I perceive to be on the same level and style of action as other characters, I find I am time and again met with much more resistance or many more steps to achieve these goals.

Examples:
● Property ownership as a means of generating income has become rather central to the campaign as a means of keeping the players not wanting for things that do not require adventuring (and for the most part it seems to be working well for the group). Using our one player/character who is usually the quickest to loot and think exclusively of his own benefit before the party's as an example; properties have not only been easier to acquire (not even needing a roll in some cases) but the income they generate has also tended to be higher. Fewer troubles in keeping the places running as well, not having them yet been subject to theft, vandalism, and monster raids as has been my personal experience.

● Looting: As a whole, the majority of the party is rather quick to loot...but two of our players especially so it seems, only to have the loot split between the two should they feel they both jumped on it rather quick. This leaves the rest of us further behind in comparison as efforts to voice concern on this issue seem to be met with non-response. When my attempts to loot are successful, they've consistently resulted in a fair bit less then is typically found by our two primary looters. Specific examples include not finding gemstones when several had been handed out in a specific session, finding literally 1/3 the amount of coinage, still being stuck with a mundane mace at paragon level after several attempts to get an upgrade.

● NPC reactions: Despite being a paladin/cleric hybrid who's multiclassed as a bard and has a knight hospitaller theme, I find getting friendly behaviour from NPCs to be surprisingly hard in comparison (again, oft needing rolls vs not as is the case with the other players) to our pirate merc character and our casually criminal ranger.

In all of this I might assume I am simply playing the wrong type of character for the style the campaign is meant to have, but the DM also consistently places us in adventures that seem to depend on our doing good for others; tasks much more in line with my character then the others.

It has left me frustrated and wondering why it seems I am being punished. As I've said, I don't feel comfortable simply bringing up the topic as I don't imagine that it would be well received. This leaves me unsure as to how to go about dealing with the situation, be it in character or out.

warghoul

Nov 16, 2013 22:17:05

If you cant hash this out out of game your S.O.L I think. Its not a character issue its a GM and players being lame to say the least.

Harvengure1

Nov 16, 2013 22:29:31

Having been gaming with this GM for over a year and never having had these issues until recently, I wasn't sure how to percieve it. Initially I thought it was just me but as time has passed I've observed that it is indeed not my imagination. Hopefully some inspiration will arise from this topic as how to deal with it since plain and open communication, I feel, would just rub the GM the wrong way given the subject. It's not that he is a GM who can not accept criticism but in this case....

Centauri

Nov 17, 2013 0:55:15

Communication isn't always possible, but it's possible much more often than it's tried.

I don't know what to advise, because I don't know what's going on, and I don't think you do either. Key to all this would be figuring that out.

I'm also not sure what the effect is on gameplay. You say several of you are "broken" or behind the curve. A mundane mace at paragon should put you at least two points of attack bonus behind where you should be, which I think is enough to notice. If the DM creates encounters with a particular outcome in mind, he should be finding it harder for the party to achieve that outcome, or at least harder for some of the PCs to contribute, so causing you to be behind should not be to his advantage in any way.

It's odd. You're going to have to talk with him. If it rubs him the wrong way, I think that's a sign that you shouldn't be playing with this guy. Even feeling that it would rub the guy the wrong way would be enough to make me want to leave the game.

Good luck.

Winterleaf

Nov 18, 2013 2:08:04

Talk with your GM. If you can get them fact to face, buy them a coffee/pop and begin with 'I was hoping you could give me some advice" and go from there.

Some thoughts from my perspective on your dilemma ( and keep in mind, I tend to give the benefit of the doubt a lot):

You play your character as a generous, giving person. A couple ideas on why you have less loot:

Your GM is punishing you.
Your GM may have the impression that your PC doesn't care about loot/riches, and as a result doesn't give you any phat loot. Or he may be frustrated with you finding ways to give away the riches he comes up with for you, and as a result just doesnt bother any more. If the other players get visibly excited about treasure, and you don't, your GM may simply have (knowingly or not) focused loot on people who seem to care a lot about it.

I presume your Paladin/Cleric/bard has a high Cha, with all the expected Cha skills like Diplomacy, Intimidation, etc. Yet your character has trouble getting friendly reactions, needing rolls where other characters dont seem to. A couple of possibilities:

Your GM is punishing you.
Your GM is trying to make you feel useful by making you roll in social situations, thus (in his eyes) giving you a sense of accomplishment when you succeed. He lets PC's that aren't good at Charisma-based skill role-play through them, but because that is your character's mechanical forte, he makes you roll-play instead. Kind of like how to save time the GM will tell the players all about the lineage of Baron von Ecchs, but if one PC has History as a trained skill, they'll have to roll the dice for success instead.

Hopefully, its not the punishing thing. If you've been playing with him for a year, you probably have a decent idea of how your interactions with him flow. Does he snap at you? Talk over your turn? Roll his eyes at your character ideas? Or is he a pretty decent GM overall, treating you with respect and trying to keep you entertained? If you get a good vibe from him, your issues may turn out to be simple miscommunications or misperceptions.

The problem with skills and roll-playing vs role-playing has come up in games I've played before, and sometimes GM don't know they're doing it. He might be persuaded to lay off the die rolls unless there's a specific reason NPC's would be hostile and its a plot point that they need to be convinced. Having everyone be hostile just so you can roll to make them friendly unfairly penalizes your PC for no good reason.

Good luck.

RedSiegfried

Nov 18, 2013 9:19:08

Talk to your DM. The fact that you immediately excluded talking to your DM as a possibility tells me the problem is that you're afraid to confront people and to meet your own needs and instead you expect others to know what you need out of the game to make it fun for you, and simply give it to you without you having to ask. Stop that behavior right now.

The type of character you're playing has nothing to do with it. How you play it has everything to do with it. It's you. Sure, the DM may be screwing you for some reason, intentionally or not, but he's not going to stop until you make him stop.

First of all, you can start by taking your fair share of the loot. There's nothing that says you can't. If you want it, and it's fair, take it. If others try to stop you from having a fair share, tell them to stop trying to screw you over. If they take more than their fair share, back them down. If you want, talk to the group and make a deal that all loot is divided evenly.

But if you can't communicate face to face with your DM about the problems you have, you shouldn't play Dungeons and Dragons with him. THERE IS NO GOOD REASON WHY YOU CAN'T DISCUSS THIS WITH YOUR DM. ANY REASON YOU COME UP WITH IS JUST MAKING EXCUSES. There's no way of working around him covertly that is going to get what you want. Making covert contracts where you act a certain way and hope the DM will respond by acting the way you want him to won't work, and it's manipulative anyway. Either man up and talk to the DM or just leave now and save yourself and the rest of the group the grief of dealing with your dissatisfaction. Look at what others have written about what you might want to say, be mature, patient and polite, and be prepared to compromise to get some of what you want as long as he compromises too. Also be prepared to get shut down. If the DM won't hear your concerns and make an attempt to make things more fun for you, then you can either continue to put up with it or just leave.

But whatever you do, don't resort to passive aggressive tactics or covert means to manipulate the DM's behavior. It won't work and it's not healthy behavior anyway.

Please report back here on your success with making the game more enjoyable for yourself. The little secret is that if you're enjoying the game more, so will everyone else. Good luck!

Krusk

Nov 18, 2013 15:48:21

First, I'd like to open by saying that yes I wish simply bringing the issue up with the gm and discussing it were an option but I feel that that would simply go poorly. If simple and honest communication were an option as often as it is suggested, the world would be a much better place and I wish it were.

Scatterbrained

Nov 18, 2013 19:16:48

Yeah I have to agree that you have basically those two choices. You keep trying to find a way to solve it in character, and that's just not going to work.

Personally I don't think it's a huge loss for you to stop playing in a game where you're treated unfairly and don't seem to be having much fun. I wouldn't enjoy a game with a DM that was both unbalanced and hard to communicate with. It's a bummer, but maybe you can put the energy into finding a better group.

RedSiegfried

Nov 18, 2013 20:59:55

The only other thing I would say as follow up is this: quitting is easy. Trying to change things to make them better for yourself is hard. But if you enjoy playing this game, you should stick with it and at least give changing things a try before quitting. If you don't at least give it a try, you will probably find that you have the same problems with other groups in the future, and nothing will change.

#10

Harvengure1

Nov 28, 2013 2:14:23

Having others confirm that I am not crazy and that this was, indeed, unfair treatment was nice. I honestly wasn't sure if it was the case or if I was seeing something not there. Feeling that speaking with the GM directly on the issue would simply ruffle his dander, I have taken another route I hope will resolve the issue; I am DMing my own campaign with my DM as a player. The hope is to 'lead' by example.

#11

Centauri

Nov 28, 2013 2:38:49

Harvengure1 wrote:

#12

Krusk

Nov 28, 2013 7:50:59

If you are leading by example, make sure to point out differences and to explain why you are doing it differently. You should also verbally confirm with the other players that they prefer this method.

"I know last game we did this, but I'd prefer to do this. I think its ____. What do you guys think?".

(Reply to #10)

RedSiegfried

You may find yourself tempted to take out some resentment on the former DM. Do't be surprised if this happens; it happens to everyone sometimes. Don't do it; lead by example. However, don't let him buffalo you around either just because he was the DM in a game you're not playing anymore. He gets an equal say in the group, just like everyone else. Good luck.

#14

Noon

Dec 26, 2013 0:13:39

I suspect the other players are go-getters. As players they do stuff in play in order to get stuff.

While you expect, because of the background and bard and such, to get given an equal amount not because of what you're doing as a player in the moment, but because of your character sheet. You're GM just sees you sitting passively, wanting NPC's to just be friends from the get go, and is less inclined to have passivity gain as much.

Or to be more exact, how do you imagine this working - your stats determine what you get? For example, if your stats were better than theirs, then you'd get more than them?

Or do you expect everyone to get the same amount, no matter what your character does or doesn't do?

#15

Man_in_the_Funny_Hat

Jan 17, 2014 15:36:48

Does your DM read minds? No? Few do. So how is it you expect him to spontaneously realize his errors and make amends and corrections? If YOU choose not to talk about it you are relieving the DM of a great deal of responsibility. Yes he shouldn't be doing it in the first place but if you won't say anything you sorta deserve what you get from that point on. Suppose you do come up with some way to rub his nose in what he's doing. Think he'll react any better? You have the obligation to yourself AND to the DM to let him know that you are unhappy and WHY. Your move should be dictated by his reaction to that - not by your fear of what his reaction MIGHT be.

(Reply to #15)

Storyteller-Zero

Man_in_the_Funny_Hat wrote:

#17

Man_in_the_Funny_Hat

Jan 24, 2014 8:07:55

Storyteller-Zero wrote: