Fighter- Basically a super tank. High AC/HP. Relatively low damage output. A heightened Human.
Another Martial Character- Fighter-ish. I believe some other similiar class perhaps from Tome of Battle. Heighten Human, Quicken- Very fast, powerful.
Warlock- 2-3 Level Adjustment (my character knows what causes the level adjustment but the whole party doesn't so just in case I won't post what it is). LA has weakened damage output but made him extremely useful out of battle.
Duskblade- (deceased) Replaced by Dragon Shaman. Player wasn't involved in relevant portion of the thread. Best I can say is, hasn't killed anyone else in the party.
Bard- New to the party, wasn't involved in the battle that will be described. I haven't seen much of her PC but seems to be well made and played.
Scout 4/ Ranger 1- (Me) Wood Elf
Stats:
Str- 16
Con- 14
Dex- 20
Int- 14
Wis- 12
Chr- 10
Feats- Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Swift Hunter. Plus class features/feats.
Favored enemies- Undead +4, Constructs +2.
With Swift Hunter I am able to skirmish both undead and constructs in addition to normal favored enemy bonuses.
Relevant Equimpment- Com. Longbow (str +3), Skirmisher's Boots, cask of holy water.
So, the party is in a cursed mansion housing many undead, upon discovering this my character purchases a cask of holy water from town. It is used like a quiver with the arrow tips and about 2 1/2 inches of the shafts, which are wrapped in cloth for that 2 1/2 inches, soaking in the holy water. When facing undead these are the arrows used. I am not sure if it is right but, the DM ruled that they deal an extra 2d4 damage. That is the same as a splash attack of Holy Water so I wouldn't be opposed to them dealing less damage.
The party goes further than we were intended to into the basement, we were intended to clear the upper levels first. Soon, we find ourselves locked in a large room filled with cursed gold and two blood hulk fighters and a blood hulk giant. Overall a Encounter level of 8. The heavily armed fighter-tank positions himself in the trench created between the mounds of gold, holding back the bloodhulks. My character and the quickened melee fighter-thing position ourselves on the uneven mounds to slow down anyone approaching. The warlock is several feet behind my character.
Thanks to my skirmish ability, the holy water, str bonuses, favored enemy bonus, and the bloodhulks fragility I was dealing about 30 damage an attack. With the help of my skirmishers boots I dealt about 150 damage in three rounds against the bloodhulk giant. With the damage from the rest of the party it went down. The other bloodhulks went down with similar ease.
Now my problem is that I am afraid that I might lessen the fun for the rest of the party if my character can deal so much damage in combat. I might be over reacting. My character has several drawbacks: the damage is somewhat situational, low-ish AC and HP (although the I'm usually able to stay away from threats), has a +10 attack BAB+Dex+Point Blank Shot, an enemy with 25+ AC I would only be hitting 25% at best. Also, this battle almost couldn't have been designed to better suit my PC. I'm not worried about the Bard and fighterish Players, because the bard is made from what I can tell to buff others and the fighterish character can deal some pretty good damage too. The fighter tank deals low damage but rarely has to worry about death in battle. As said the warlock is weakish right now due to LA but it should pick up a bit and his at will-abilities gained from what gave him the LA are useful.
This has turned long and drawn out but I guess I want to know what your take on the situation is. Am I overreacting, would it lessen the fun if one (or two thanks to the Quickened fighter thing) character(s) is dealing much more damage in battle, and what would you suggest? No one has complained and I would be willing to tone my PC down a bit if it came up. But, I don't want anyone to be having less fun but not voicing it. The DM is bit of a powergamer and allows anything that is 3.5 made by wizards and the book of templates. Lastly, the problem may get worse, we just hit level 7 and I now have improved skirmish, rapid shot (for use with skirmishers boots and for opening up manyshot), and plan on getting improved manyshot at level 12 and a bow of splitting.
Thank you listening to my long post.
(unless they are your friends and tell you what they think)
i will just tell you one experience i've had:
I was a DM and as yours, let the players go anything 3.5.
A player had come up with a build that could do some pretty nasty combo in a particular situation.(losing x % hp, raging, savin throw y failed)
I thought: If this combo happens only once in a while okay!
Well, when the player actually got to use it...it was just the end of fun for the other players.
They just sayed:
So...Let's wait for him to kill the thing, say it when you are done with it.
And they've lost the focus and interest in the game.
Only the uber-player was having fun...and he didn't find nice when i asked him to work something to prevent that from happening again.
To conclude:
i think everybody can have fun if they feel they are important in the battle
Like this...mind the tank, he must've liked the encounter because he felt important and needed:
"If i wasn't there they could have died! I was glad to contribute"
Mind the situation:
A HEAVY-OPTMIZED Wizard with celerity...killing ANY monsters with a nasty spell always before the first round of combat.
THIS would be very bad for the other players.
Doing one thing well does not frustate other players.
Preventing them of contributing does.
Well... Hope this helps a bit.
Let's hear another person point of view
More powerful than the rest of the party? Almost certainly, because everybody else did something suboptimal.
5th level is (about) where the fighter starts to rapid fall behind.
More information needed on the 'other martial character', of course. He might be in good shape.
Warlock nerfed himself with a level adjustment.
Dragon Shaman ... only moderately useful class, generally only good for support.
Bard ... like the Dragon Shaman. Primarily a fifth man; another supporter.
But 'too' powerful? Feh. One, two more levels and any dedicated Cleric, Druid, or Wizard would eat you for lunch.
So, here is the situation I am playing in a campaign with 5 other people. We were all 5th level for the relevant portion of the thread. We use an modified point buy so everyone's stats are roughly even.
Fighter- Basically a super tank. High AC/HP. Relatively low damage output. A heightened Human.
Another Martial Character- Fighter-ish. I believe some other similiar class perhaps from Tome of Battle. Heighten Human, Quicken- Very fast, powerful.
Warlock- 2-3 Level Adjustment (my character knows what causes the level adjustment but the whole party doesn't so just in case I won't post what it is). LA has weakened damage output but made him extremely useful out of battle.
Duskblade- (deceased) Replaced by Dragon Shaman. Player wasn't involved in relevant portion of the thread. Best I can say is, hasn't killed anyone else in the party.
Bard- New to the party, wasn't involved in the battle that will be described. I haven't seen much of her PC but seems to be well made and played.
Scout 4/ Ranger 1- (Me) Wood Elf
Stats:
Str- 16
Con- 14
Dex- 20
Int- 14
Wis- 12
Chr- 10
Feats- Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Swift Hunter. Plus class features/feats.
Favored enemies- Undead +4, Constructs +2.
With Swift Hunter I am able to skirmish both undead and constructs in addition to normal favored enemy bonuses.
Relevant Equimpment- Com. Longbow (str +3), Skirmisher's Boots, cask of holy water.
So, the party is in a cursed mansion housing many undead, upon discovering this my character purchases a cask of holy water from town. It is used like a quiver with the arrow tips and about 2 1/2 inches of the shafts, which are wrapped in cloth for that 2 1/2 inches, soaking in the holy water. When facing undead these are the arrows used. I am not sure if it is right but, the DM ruled that they deal an extra 2d4 damage. That is the same as a splash attack of Holy Water so I wouldn't be opposed to them dealing less damage.
The party goes further than we were intended to into the basement, we were intended to clear the upper levels first. Soon, we find ourselves locked in a large room filled with cursed gold and two blood hulk fighters and a blood hulk giant. Overall a Encounter level of 8. The heavily armed fighter-tank positions himself in the trench created between the mounds of gold, holding back the bloodhulks. My character and the quickened melee fighter-thing position ourselves on the uneven mounds to slow down anyone approaching. The warlock is several feet behind my character.
Thanks to my skirmish ability, the holy water, str bonuses, favored enemy bonus, and the bloodhulks fragility I was dealing about 30 damage an attack. With the help of my skirmishers boots I dealt about 150 damage in three rounds against the bloodhulk giant. With the damage from the rest of the party it went down. The other bloodhulks went down with similar ease.
Now my problem is that I am afraid that I might lessen the fun for the rest of the party if my character can deal so much damage in combat. I might be over reacting. My character has several drawbacks: the damage is somewhat situational, low-ish AC and HP (although the I'm usually able to stay away from threats), has a +10 attack BAB+Dex+Point Blank Shot, an enemy with 25+ AC I would only be hitting 25% at best. Also, this battle almost couldn't have been designed to better suit my PC. I'm not worried about the Bard and fighterish Players, because the bard is made from what I can tell to buff others and the fighterish character can deal some pretty good damage too. The fighter tank deals low damage but rarely has to worry about death in battle. As said the warlock is weakish right now due to LA but it should pick up a bit and his at will-abilities gained from what gave him the LA are useful.
This has turned long and drawn out but I guess I want to know what your take on the situation is. Am I overreacting, would it lessen the fun if one (or two thanks to the Quickened fighter thing) character(s) is dealing much more damage in battle, and what would you suggest? No one has complained and I would be willing to tone my PC down a bit if it came up. But, I don't want anyone to be having less fun but not voicing it. The DM is bit of a powergamer and allows anything that is 3.5 made by wizards and the book of templates. Lastly, the problem may get worse, we just hit level 7 and I now have improved skirmish, rapid shot (for use with skirmishers boots and for opening up manyshot), and plan on getting improved manyshot at level 12 and a bow of splitting.
Thank you listening to my long post.
How exactly are you doing 30 points of damage
Even using skirmish 2d6
long bow 1d8+3
precise shot 1
favored enemy =4
2d6 averages 6 points
1d8+3 averages 7 points
13+5=18
Another thing is that dipping the arrows in holy water is a DM ruling, and most DM's probably would not allow it.
To answer your question, the character is not to strong. Game on.
You fought Undead, your favored enemy is Undead.
Your Swift Hunter allows you to deal Skirmish damage to Undead since they are your favored enemy.
Your battleground was designed in such a way that you could move around with impunity and snipe at the enemies who could not reach you and had no ranged attacks to retaliate.
Your enemies were Bloodhulks, which take extra damage against piercing and slashing attacks.
Your enemies were Bloodhulks, which have laughably low AC.
Your DM let you deal an extra 2d4 damage with each arrow -- for whatever reason he decided that was a good amount. I say it is too much damage, because you would do that with an actual vial of holy water, but whatever.
You used both charges (presumably) on your Skirmisher's Boots, which gave you two extra attacks in the fight. Those charges are gone for the day.
If you didn't do a lot of damage in that situation, then something would be wrong with your character.
How exactly are you doing 30 points of damage
Even using skirmish 2d6
long bow 1d8+3
precise shot 1
favored enemy =4
2d6 averages 6 points
1d8+3 averages 7 points
13+5=18
You mean Point Blank Shot gives the extra +1 damage, not Precise Shot. But anyway, there is also the issue of his Skirmisher's Boots (MIC) which allow him to deal 2 extra damage when making Skirmish Attacks, and the 2d4 damage from the holy water he was allowed to take. The enemy he fought takes an additional 1d6 damage from piercing weapons as well.
And by "on average" I think he was talking about during the actual fight, rather than his theoretical average damage.
EDIT: His minimum damage (for those conditions) would be ~17, maximum ~44.
Also, I have planned out my character for the next few levels. And by level 12 I have will greater manyshot and a bow of splitting meaning that I will be putting out 4 arrows each dealing 1d8+3 + 6d6+2, and thats without holy water, favored enemy or any other improvement I planned. I guess my concern is that the slight gap in power might grow wider in the future.
I don't think I am or intend to be a spotlight hog. Right now the closest to party leaders are the two fighters with my scout holding an advisory role (like me, my character can be indecisive). Everyone preforms that same amount of actions both in and out of battle.
However, I guess my question is what should I do if my character is obviously more powerful than the rest? I don't wish to make bad build choices to stay with the rest of the party. Scout: yeah, I've heard of greater manyshot but, my Elf tribe thinks that shooting multiple arrows at once is a heresy. But, I also don't want the rest of the group to loss interest. I guess I will see how the next few sessions go.
P.S. Yes, I did mean average damage that battle. I believe without Holy Water the average would be somewhere around 21-26.
Swift Hunter has Skirmish +1d6/+1 AC AND the favored enemy class feature as prerequisites. You don't get that level of Skirmish until Scout 5, meaning you can't take Swift Hunter until Character Level 6.
Also, you're calculating your Favored Enemy bonus as though you were a 10th level ranger. +4 vs undead AND +2 vs constructs means THREE instances of favored enemy. At best, you'd have two from 5 effective ranger levels. However, since you can't actually have Swift Hunter at Character Level 5, you have ONE favored enemy bonus from your single ranger level.
So, yeah, you're overpowered due to an illegal build.
So, yeah, you're overpowered due to an illegal build.
Or, referring to the rest of the thread, he's got an illegal build and still isn't overpowered.
Yeah, way too many reqs on your abilities (movement, ranged, favored enemies etc) for you to be powerful in a longterm observation. Also, the rest of the party seems to be rather lowpowered so maybe giving them a few pointers (CO board handbooks or something) would be a good idea since you don't need to water down your character. In a few levels you'll start to feel the lack of casters and trapmonkeys unless the DM is very good at gearing the scenario around the partys limitations.
First thing that popped out to me is your character's build is illegal.
Swift Hunter has Skirmish +1d6/+1 AC AND the favored enemy class feature as prerequisites. You don't get that level of Skirmish until Scout 5, meaning you can't take Swift Hunter until Character Level 6.
Also, you're calculating your Favored Enemy bonus as though you were a 10th level ranger. +4 vs undead AND +2 vs constructs means THREE instances of favored enemy. At best, you'd have two from 5 effective ranger levels. However, since you can't actually have Swift Hunter at Character Level 5, you have ONE favored enemy bonus from your single ranger level.
So, yeah, you're overpowered due to an illegal build.
I would disagree about the illegal part. You can get the (1d6, 1AC) Skirmish at Scout level 3. At ECL four you take the first level of Ranger giving you the first Favored enemy. At ECL 5 you take the 4 Scout level which gives you a bonus feat that can be used to gain Swift Hunter. At level 5 Ranger (which I effective am for FE) you gain your second favored enemy which gains you an additional favored enemy and +2 to your existing one.
Please someone check my math and facts. If my build is illegal I will tell my DM and rebuild my character.
I would disagree about the illegal part. You can get the (1d6, 1AC) Skirmish at Scout level 3. At ECL four you take the first level of Ranger giving you the first Favored enemy. At ECL 5 you take the 4 Scout level which gives you a bonus feat that can be used to gain Swift Hunter. At level 5 Ranger (which I effective am for FE) you gain your second favored enemy which gains you an additional favored enemy and +2 to your existing one.
Please someone check my math and facts. If my build is illegal I will tell my DM and rebuild my character.
No, you're fine. But I can definitely see the optimizer in you :D That isn't a problem except by comparison really. Swift Hunter is really that good of a feat -- for that particular class combo.
EDIT: You are exactly following the Swift Hunter example even.
You mean Point Blank Shot gives the extra +1 damage, not Precise Shot. But anyway, there is also the issue of his Skirmisher's Boots (MIC) which allow him to deal 2 extra damage when making Skirmish Attacks, and the 2d4 damage from the holy water he was allowed to take. The enemy he fought takes an additional 1d6 damage from piercing weapons as well.
And by "on average" I think he was talking about during the actual fight, rather than his theoretical average damage.
EDIT: His minimum damage (for those conditions) would be ~17, maximum ~44.
And his theoretical average damage in that fight would indeed be 30 (7.5 longbow, 7 Skirmish, 2 boots, 1 PBS, 5 holy water, 4 favored enemy, 3.5 piercing).
I am aware that my character isn't that powerful in comparison to other builds, especially some of the caster classes. However, once again none of them our in the party so they can be more powerful all day long and not effect party balance.
I'm also aware that the party is not particularly versatile. When we were preparing the Campaign I couldn't decide on a class so I figured I would fill in whatever position was open. Two days before the first session I thought the party would consist of a Sorcerer, Cleric, Bard, Duskblade, and fighter. So, I figured magic and melee were relatively covered and went with a Scout (I figured the Bard could help with skills, all we would really be down is a lockpicker). However, first game session rolls around and we no longer have a cleric or sorcerer. The only cleric I had close to prepared was a LN Cleric of Wee Jas specializing in necromantics, but the only restrictions on the campaign are no evil or necromancy. So, Pants on that idea.
Also, thanks to most of us having low will saves we are just waiting to be ripped apart by a spellcaster. My only counter so far is to hope my high initiative will let me go first so I can ready actions to attack while they are casting, to break their concentration.