Two rangers and a skill ***** - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Two rangers and a skill *****

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
the_gypsy_bastard
Aug 07, 2008 22:27:15 ok my group started a 4th ed game yesterday, I have been talking for about a week about playing a ranger with the other players as we shoot ideas back and forth. Come game day another player decides to also play a ranger, while I take the two-bladed fighting style they choose the archery style. Now the problem being that this other ranger is the same race as mine, nearly the same feats, the same languages, and has higher stats and for some reason always seems to pass ANY skill check. This other ranger does every thing better than mine so what room is there for my character? I feel vary cheated. Oh and let it be known that this other character also out checks the wizard in arcana checks, the rouge in thievery and stealth checks. what am I to do? how do I deal with this, I feel useless to my party!
#2
Cohen95
Aug 07, 2008 22:56:25 Uhm....live with it or make a new character? I don't know, I'm a firm believer that 4e groups should sheet characters together, as a group. If your party has all the standard roles covered, and he wants to be an extra striker, and wants to play a ranger, and wants to play whatever race your character happens to be, then you can either address the perceived intrusion, change your plan and play something else (I thought I'd love warlocks, turns out Wizard are my fave now). Of course, if you guys are missing a defender/leader/controller, you may either want to look into that, or ask the other player to look into that.

As for his stats being higher, how did you guys generate stats? Did you roll? If so, are your stats ridiculously lower than everybody elses? If so, ask your DM if you can reroll them. If you guys used point-buy, or standard array, then you have nobody to blame for that but yourself.

As for his skill checks being the best, so what? Isn't him always passing skill checks ultimately good for the party as a whole? Or is he being a primadonna or stealing the limelight? If you feel like either of the last two are the case, talk to your DM, out of game, and express your concerns, all of them. It's the DMs job to resolve these things, for the sake of the party.

However, you have to prepare for the possibility that this is all in your head, and you're just upset because you feel like your idea was stolen. Problem is, no matter how you sheet/roll a character, what's on paper is exactly the least original part of the character, always.
#3
jage
Aug 08, 2008 1:12:32 It is NOT the DMs job to resolve things.

But anyway, are you sure he calculated his skills correctly?
Are you sure he is not fudging his rolls?

And I agree that while the similar sheets are unfortunate (but seriously- you get 2-3 at wills from the same four? Yeah there isn't a lot of opportunity for difference) your best solution is to role play your character differently. If you search, then he searches, you sneak then he sneaks, the wiz checks something, he checks the same thing etc. whether or not he does it better he is still copying you and that's annoying.
#4
Cohen95
Aug 08, 2008 1:36:44
It is NOT the DMs job to resolve things.

My mistake. Whatever they call the person who's job it is to be an impartial arbitrator between players who may or may not both have excellent points, so that there isn't a huge conflict in the group coming from players talking to/about each other behind their backs.

Seriously, talk to your DM if you genuinely feel slighted. The DMs job is to maintain neutrality. He should be rooting for your guys IC, but he can't be afraid to kill you if you mess up too badly. It's not his job to beat the party, but he has to present them with a challenge or they won't feel like it's real enough. Maintaining impartiality is inherent in the DMs job, and even a halfway decent DM likely has the ability to do it with more than just an adventure.

The only other option is to A) talk to the offending player, who may blow you off if he thinks you're being petty, or may get genuinely offended if he feels like he didn't do anything wrong; or B) talk to other players to try to get some perspective/validation about your feelings, which could get back to the offending player and could lead to feelings of rumor-milling and back-stabbing.

The DM is the best person to talk to, because if the offending player finds out about the issue, the DM will be able to explain to the player that you came to the DM because you wanted to make sure your feelings of being slighted were accurate, and the DM wanted to get information from the other players to be able to get some perspective on whether you are the only player who has a problem with this guy's Ranger being able to PWN at every skill.

The DM should always be the final moderator/arbitrator. If you round-robin, and there's no clear "head DM" then you should assume that all players are DMs, and present the issue in open-forum. Ask everyone to show up a half hour or so early, and genuinely explain how you feel, to get a group opinion. If you do have a head DM, you should go to that person first, because if you present it in open forum, you risk putting the player "out there" and catching him off guard.
#5
ashmanonar
Aug 08, 2008 19:12:04
ok my group started a 4th ed game yesterday, I have been talking for about a week about playing a ranger with the other players as we shoot ideas back and forth. Come game day another player decides to also play a ranger, while I take the two-bladed fighting style they choose the archery style. Now the problem being that this other ranger is the same race as mine, nearly the same feats, the same languages, and has higher stats and for some reason always seems to pass ANY skill check. This other ranger does every thing better than mine so what room is there for my character? I feel vary cheated. Oh and let it be known that this other character also out checks the wizard in arcana checks, the rouge in thievery and stealth checks. what am I to do? how do I deal with this, I feel useless to my party!

Sounds like either cheating or a dice jesus. Seriously, a ranger with Arcana? Bull. Call him out on it. Same with Thievery, really. A ranger shouldn't have that skill unless he's burning a feat on it.
#6
jage
Aug 08, 2008 19:16:42
Sounds like either cheating or a dice jesus. Seriously, a ranger with Arcana? Bull. Call him out on it. Same with Thievery, really. A ranger shouldn't have that skill unless he's burning a feat on it.

RAW, you can roll on untrained thievery or anything else right?
#7
Cohen95
Aug 08, 2008 21:30:36
RAW, you can roll on untrained thievery or anything else right?

You can use any skill. The difference now is that some/most skills have trained-only applications.
#8
ashmanonar
Aug 08, 2008 22:29:08
You can use any skill. The difference now is that some/most skills have trained-only applications.

There's also the caveat that an untrained roll in Arcana on a non-int based character is going to be limited to any racial bonuses, Jack of all Trades (if you have it), and your int bonus.

You're not going to be reguarly beating an Arcana-trained wizard, especially if the wizard happens to be Eladrin (or some other race with a racial bonus). (Only on a 20, and if the wiz rolls 1.)

And you're right, there are trained-only applications in the skills now.
#9
Thangor
Aug 08, 2008 22:49:00 Is your character effectively optimized?
If not, get your DM's permission, rebuild and optimize.
Use the boards or get help from a powergaming friend.

If you're two-weapon and he's archery, focus on being the best darn
two-weapon ranger you can be.

Also, try to have fun with the two nearly identical rangers idea.
You could be rivals or brothers or members of the same guild or clones etc.
#10
kouk
Aug 09, 2008 3:23:15 Here are your options in a short form:

1. Deal with it, and stick with the character.

2. Make a new character (with DM permission of course).

3. Talk to the player and voice your concerns.

4. Talk to the DM about your concerns and enlist his help dealing with the other player.

5. Leave the game.

You don't have to talk to the DM if you really don't think it will be helpful. Some DMs are ... not very good with interpersonal issues, while some are.

Usually though if you at least discuss it with the DM he can check that things are mechanically sound, and maybe work with you to enjoy the game more. And, maybe you three can all sit together and figure something out if necessary.

Are you absolutely sure that there is some I reason he is beating everyone on skill checks other than lucky dice? Mechanically speaking, there's only so much you can do, and a Ranger shouldn't be beating a Wizard on Arcana checks on a regular basis.
#11
foxen
Aug 09, 2008 7:36:14 Well, where your character may lack in natural born attributes, skills, or what nots...as already stated, the paper portion of your character should only really be the BEGINNING of your character...

Your rangers personality, response to NPCs, encounter, nobility, background, history, dark past, whatever...that will set him apart from the other ranger.

Add flavor, a lot of flavor for your ranger...set him apart. And if the other ranger is a super character whatever...eh, let him be...who cares as long as he doesn't endanger the entire party with brash stupid arrogant actions right?

Fox
#12
grail_quest
Aug 09, 2008 10:23:57
ok my group started a 4th ed game yesterday, I have been talking for about a week about playing a ranger with the other players as we shoot ideas back and forth. Come game day another player decides to also play a ranger, while I take the two-bladed fighting style they choose the archery style. Now the problem being that this other ranger is the same race as mine, nearly the same feats, the same languages, and has higher stats and for some reason always seems to pass ANY skill check. This other ranger does every thing better than mine so what room is there for my character? I feel vary cheated. Oh and let it be known that this other character also out checks the wizard in arcana checks, the rouge in thievery and stealth checks. what am I to do? how do I deal with this, I feel useless to my party!

There seems to be different issues here, and I'm not sure which is really bugging you (or if they all are):

(1) You discussed being a ranger, and suddenly someone else does the same. Do you feel they are deliberately cloning you? Are they deliberately competing for your role and don't want to openly negotiate wanting that role?
(2) You are a melee ranger, he's a ranged combat ranger. They out-fight you in melee too? What are the gameplay scenarios in which the two of you overlap?
(3) They have higher stats. How did that happen? Did you all roll for your stats and they happened to get higher stats across the board?
(4) They out-roll everyone. Is this plain luck or is he consistently doing it somehow? Is it die rolls or die rolls plus bonuses?

(1) and (2) sound like schtick issues. It's a perennial problem in RPGs when players don't feel unique anymore, just as you described. NEVER happens on TV and 5-team concept shows as everyone knows it just won't work, even if you try to play up rivalries.
It can be very uncomfortable voicing it as it can feel like whining, but it can have serious consequences in the game--i.e. someone won't be having fun, i.e., YOU. And if you're not having fun, what's the point?
Complicating this is the fact that you seem to feel ownership of the ranger schtick, having discussed it with everyone beforehand, and thereby sort of staking your territory and coming to an agreement with everyone else so that the group wouldn't have this sort of role overlap. Then someone else comes along and seems to steal your idea. And with no discussion. They are theoretically not obliged to if there is no house rule or established protocol to discuss party makeup, but nevertheless it can feel very rude.

(3) and (4) sound suspicious. The higher stats, in particular, but I don't know your DM's character generation procedure. If you're thinking they are cheating, it's up to you whether you want to talk to the DM about it. Again, it's hard to do. These are interpersonal communication issues. Talking about uncomfortable things is hard to do. Talking about things that are important to you is hard to do because you never really know if you'll be validated and respectfully treated or blown off or have it treated lightly and invalidated. Relationship issues are probably the hardest things to handle, and I am myself really bad about confrontation. Further, if someone thinks they're being called a cheat, they can get defensive really fast and then "communication" can devolve into an argument and bad feelings. Can't give you advice here since you probably know the people in the group better than anyone on these forums and you'll know best how to diplomatically proceed. Theoretically talking about it honestly is better than keeping it inside and being resentful. Depending on the type of person you are, it can be hard though. Very hard.

Good luck!
#13
deviknyte
Aug 09, 2008 14:53:01 I'm a firm believer in playing whatever you want despite the party (except berserk and frenzied berserker). Party cohesion takes is a step behind playing what you want and the as long as your all playing good characters you should be able to make up for it somewhere.

Second. Same race.... can't blame him if it's what he wants to play. If you him playing that race makes you not want to anymore than don't. Nothing wrong with an elven archer hanging out with an elven duel-wielder. But there's only so much in 4.0. So if your both picking up feats to make you good than yeah.... a lot of them might be the same.

Third. Sounds like he's cheating or you guys rolled for stats. If it's the first call him out on it. If it's the second, you knew some player was going to have better stats coming in.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 the_gypsy_bastard Aug 07, 2008 22:27:15	ok my group started a 4th ed game yesterday, I have been talking for about a week about playing a ranger with the other players as we shoot ideas back and forth. Come game day another player decides to also play a ranger, while I take the two-bladed fighting style they choose the archery style. Now the problem being that this other ranger is the same race as mine, nearly the same feats, the same languages, and has higher stats and for some reason always seems to pass ANY skill check. This other ranger does every thing better than mine so what room is there for my character? I feel vary cheated. Oh and let it be known that this other character also out checks the wizard in arcana checks, the rouge in thievery and stealth checks. what am I to do? how do I deal with this, I feel useless to my party!
#2 Cohen95 Aug 07, 2008 22:56:25	Uhm....live with it or make a new character? I don't know, I'm a firm believer that 4e groups should sheet characters together, as a group. If your party has all the standard roles covered, and he wants to be an extra striker, and wants to play a ranger, and wants to play whatever race your character happens to be, then you can either address the perceived intrusion, change your plan and play something else (I thought I'd love warlocks, turns out Wizard are my fave now). Of course, if you guys are missing a defender/leader/controller, you may either want to look into that, or ask the other player to look into that. As for his stats being higher, how did you guys generate stats? Did you roll? If so, are your stats ridiculously lower than everybody elses? If so, ask your DM if you can reroll them. If you guys used point-buy, or standard array, then you have nobody to blame for that but yourself. As for his skill checks being the best, so what? Isn't him always passing skill checks ultimately good for the party as a whole? Or is he being a primadonna or stealing the limelight? If you feel like either of the last two are the case, talk to your DM, out of game, and express your concerns, all of them. It's the DMs job to resolve these things, for the sake of the party. However, you have to prepare for the possibility that this is all in your head, and you're just upset because you feel like your idea was stolen. Problem is, no matter how you sheet/roll a character, what's on paper is exactly the least original part of the character, always.
#3 jage Aug 08, 2008 1:12:32	It is NOT the DMs job to resolve things. But anyway, are you sure he calculated his skills correctly? Are you sure he is not fudging his rolls? And I agree that while the similar sheets are unfortunate (but seriously- you get 2-3 at wills from the same four? Yeah there isn't a lot of opportunity for difference) your best solution is to role play your character differently. If you search, then he searches, you sneak then he sneaks, the wiz checks something, he checks the same thing etc. whether or not he does it better he is still copying you and that's annoying.
#4 Cohen95 Aug 08, 2008 1:36:44	It is NOT the DMs job to resolve things. My mistake. Whatever they call the person who's job it is to be an impartial arbitrator between players who may or may not both have excellent points, so that there isn't a huge conflict in the group coming from players talking to/about each other behind their backs. Seriously, talk to your DM if you genuinely feel slighted. The DMs job is to maintain neutrality. He should be rooting for your guys IC, but he can't be afraid to kill you if you mess up too badly. It's not his job to beat the party, but he has to present them with a challenge or they won't feel like it's real enough. Maintaining impartiality is inherent in the DMs job, and even a halfway decent DM likely has the ability to do it with more than just an adventure. The only other option is to A) talk to the offending player, who may blow you off if he thinks you're being petty, or may get genuinely offended if he feels like he didn't do anything wrong; or B) talk to other players to try to get some perspective/validation about your feelings, which could get back to the offending player and could lead to feelings of rumor-milling and back-stabbing. The DM is the best person to talk to, because if the offending player finds out about the issue, the DM will be able to explain to the player that you came to the DM because you wanted to make sure your feelings of being slighted were accurate, and the DM wanted to get information from the other players to be able to get some perspective on whether you are the only player who has a problem with this guy's Ranger being able to PWN at every skill. The DM should always be the final moderator/arbitrator. If you round-robin, and there's no clear "head DM" then you should assume that all players are DMs, and present the issue in open-forum. Ask everyone to show up a half hour or so early, and genuinely explain how you feel, to get a group opinion. If you do have a head DM, you should go to that person first, because if you present it in open forum, you risk putting the player "out there" and catching him off guard.
#5 ashmanonar Aug 08, 2008 19:12:04	ok my group started a 4th ed game yesterday, I have been talking for about a week about playing a ranger with the other players as we shoot ideas back and forth. Come game day another player decides to also play a ranger, while I take the two-bladed fighting style they choose the archery style. Now the problem being that this other ranger is the same race as mine, nearly the same feats, the same languages, and has higher stats and for some reason always seems to pass ANY skill check. This other ranger does every thing better than mine so what room is there for my character? I feel vary cheated. Oh and let it be known that this other character also out checks the wizard in arcana checks, the rouge in thievery and stealth checks. what am I to do? how do I deal with this, I feel useless to my party! Sounds like either cheating or a dice jesus. Seriously, a ranger with Arcana? Bull. Call him out on it. Same with Thievery, really. A ranger shouldn't have that skill unless he's burning a feat on it.
#6 jage Aug 08, 2008 19:16:42	Sounds like either cheating or a dice jesus. Seriously, a ranger with Arcana? Bull. Call him out on it. Same with Thievery, really. A ranger shouldn't have that skill unless he's burning a feat on it. RAW, you can roll on untrained thievery or anything else right?
#7 Cohen95 Aug 08, 2008 21:30:36	RAW, you can roll on untrained thievery or anything else right? You can use any skill. The difference now is that some/most skills have trained-only applications.
#8 ashmanonar Aug 08, 2008 22:29:08	You can use any skill. The difference now is that some/most skills have trained-only applications. There's also the caveat that an untrained roll in Arcana on a non-int based character is going to be limited to any racial bonuses, Jack of all Trades (if you have it), and your int bonus. You're not going to be reguarly beating an Arcana-trained wizard, especially if the wizard happens to be Eladrin (or some other race with a racial bonus). (Only on a 20, and if the wiz rolls 1.) And you're right, there are trained-only applications in the skills now.
#9 Thangor Aug 08, 2008 22:49:00	Is your character effectively optimized? If not, get your DM's permission, rebuild and optimize. Use the boards or get help from a powergaming friend. If you're two-weapon and he's archery, focus on being the best darn two-weapon ranger you can be. Also, try to have fun with the two nearly identical rangers idea. You could be rivals or brothers or members of the same guild or clones etc.
#10 kouk Aug 09, 2008 3:23:15	Here are your options in a short form: 1. Deal with it, and stick with the character. 2. Make a new character (with DM permission of course). 3. Talk to the player and voice your concerns. 4. Talk to the DM about your concerns and enlist his help dealing with the other player. 5. Leave the game. You don't have to talk to the DM if you really don't think it will be helpful. Some DMs are ... not very good with interpersonal issues, while some are. Usually though if you at least discuss it with the DM he can check that things are mechanically sound, and maybe work with you to enjoy the game more. And, maybe you three can all sit together and figure something out if necessary. Are you absolutely sure that there is some I reason he is beating everyone on skill checks other than lucky dice? Mechanically speaking, there's only so much you can do, and a Ranger shouldn't be beating a Wizard on Arcana checks on a regular basis.
#11 foxen Aug 09, 2008 7:36:14	Well, where your character may lack in natural born attributes, skills, or what nots...as already stated, the paper portion of your character should only really be the BEGINNING of your character... Your rangers personality, response to NPCs, encounter, nobility, background, history, dark past, whatever...that will set him apart from the other ranger. Add flavor, a lot of flavor for your ranger...set him apart. And if the other ranger is a super character whatever...eh, let him be...who cares as long as he doesn't endanger the entire party with brash stupid arrogant actions right? Fox
#12 grail_quest Aug 09, 2008 10:23:57	ok my group started a 4th ed game yesterday, I have been talking for about a week about playing a ranger with the other players as we shoot ideas back and forth. Come game day another player decides to also play a ranger, while I take the two-bladed fighting style they choose the archery style. Now the problem being that this other ranger is the same race as mine, nearly the same feats, the same languages, and has higher stats and for some reason always seems to pass ANY skill check. This other ranger does every thing better than mine so what room is there for my character? I feel vary cheated. Oh and let it be known that this other character also out checks the wizard in arcana checks, the rouge in thievery and stealth checks. what am I to do? how do I deal with this, I feel useless to my party! There seems to be different issues here, and I'm not sure which is really bugging you (or if they all are): (1) You discussed being a ranger, and suddenly someone else does the same. Do you feel they are deliberately cloning you? Are they deliberately competing for your role and don't want to openly negotiate wanting that role? (2) You are a melee ranger, he's a ranged combat ranger. They out-fight you in melee too? What are the gameplay scenarios in which the two of you overlap? (3) They have higher stats. How did that happen? Did you all roll for your stats and they happened to get higher stats across the board? (4) They out-roll everyone. Is this plain luck or is he consistently doing it somehow? Is it die rolls or die rolls plus bonuses? (1) and (2) sound like schtick issues. It's a perennial problem in RPGs when players don't feel unique anymore, just as you described. NEVER happens on TV and 5-team concept shows as everyone knows it just won't work, even if you try to play up rivalries. It can be very uncomfortable voicing it as it can feel like whining, but it can have serious consequences in the game--i.e. someone won't be having fun, i.e., YOU. And if you're not having fun, what's the point? Complicating this is the fact that you seem to feel ownership of the ranger schtick, having discussed it with everyone beforehand, and thereby sort of staking your territory and coming to an agreement with everyone else so that the group wouldn't have this sort of role overlap. Then someone else comes along and seems to steal your idea. And with no discussion. They are theoretically not obliged to if there is no house rule or established protocol to discuss party makeup, but nevertheless it can feel very rude. (3) and (4) sound suspicious. The higher stats, in particular, but I don't know your DM's character generation procedure. If you're thinking they are cheating, it's up to you whether you want to talk to the DM about it. Again, it's hard to do. These are interpersonal communication issues. Talking about uncomfortable things is hard to do. Talking about things that are important to you is hard to do because you never really know if you'll be validated and respectfully treated or blown off or have it treated lightly and invalidated. Relationship issues are probably the hardest things to handle, and I am myself really bad about confrontation. Further, if someone thinks they're being called a cheat, they can get defensive really fast and then "communication" can devolve into an argument and bad feelings. Can't give you advice here since you probably know the people in the group better than anyone on these forums and you'll know best how to diplomatically proceed. Theoretically talking about it honestly is better than keeping it inside and being resentful. Depending on the type of person you are, it can be hard though. Very hard. Good luck!
#13 deviknyte Aug 09, 2008 14:53:01	I'm a firm believer in playing whatever you want despite the party (except berserk and frenzied berserker). Party cohesion takes is a step behind playing what you want and the as long as your all playing good characters you should be able to make up for it somewhere. Second. Same race.... can't blame him if it's what he wants to play. If you him playing that race makes you not want to anymore than don't. Nothing wrong with an elven archer hanging out with an elven duel-wielder. But there's only so much in 4.0. So if your both picking up feats to make you good than yeah.... a lot of them might be the same. Third. Sounds like he's cheating or you guys rolled for stats. If it's the first call him out on it. If it's the second, you knew some player was going to have better stats coming in.