Undead dragon at level 8, and crap gear - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Undead dragon at level 8, and crap gear

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
netjack
Aug 16, 2008 1:35:14 So we are going to fight an undead dragon in theses conditions. We know its a black dragon of some type.
No (2) magical items, basic array stats from player hand book, level 8.

Here are all the magical items the party has.
1. A neckless that gives a +1 deflection bonus.
2. light leather armor that gives an additional +1 to ac and once a day can increase any save by +2 and an immediate action.

That is all. O and a piece of wood that can turn into a small row boat that fits 3 people. "these 4 of us mind you."

Everything else are standard weapons and items.

We are a party of 4, 2 fighters, 1 paladin, and a ranger. "I KNOW WE DON'T HAVE A CLERIC!"

WHAT SHOULD WE DO! What are our chances.

Here is a more detailed explanation on our situation.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1074861
#2
kouk
Aug 16, 2008 2:19:15 Seriously there is nothing you can do, other than talk to your DM.

Venting is fine and all but don't expect any tactical combat advice for dealing with your dislike for the DM's game -- besides of course people saying things like "The books have 4 corners for a reason," "Time for a hammergun," and "Hit him with a folding chair."

If you believe a fight is hopeless, don't take it up. Just run. In the game and in the gaming group.
#3
Novacat
Aug 16, 2008 2:28:49 Yes, without having a sit-down with your DM as I described in the other thread, I call the situation hopeless. Fortunately, your ranger should be fairly demoralized by now, what with all the nothing he's been doing lately, so you should have a good excuse to run away. In fact, if he doesn't yield in regards magic items, that's the answer.

Your characters have a pretty good idea how powerful they are, and they should be able to realize that they're out of their league. Don't fight the dragon. Run away, avoid the encounter at all costs (after all, this is your lives we're talking about). If your DM objects, or tells you that it's unheroic or any BS, tell him that neither you nor your character are about to commit suicide by fighting a beast that you are clearly not equipped to fight. Then, go see if anyone's been having a kobold or goblin problem, stating that that's clearly what your characters are intended to do, since that's all they're equipped to do.
#4
Zaistars
Aug 16, 2008 4:10:13 yea you should have some magic sh!t by now and a dragon of equal level is suppose to be a fight for 5 char. Run like scared little Biznatches and laugh as the dragon melts you down and you start a new game (far from your current DM)
#5
retinal_haze
Aug 16, 2008 5:05:44 You should in character say talk to the rest of the party as follows:

You: "Hey guys, you know this fight is beyond us?"
Party: "You do have a point there"
You: "I suggest we make a strategic withdraw and find something we can defeat with more confidence"
Party: "Capital idea good sir!"

The party gets to decide what goes on just as much as the DM. Its his job to make the game fun, not hard. If its not fun, you're within your rights to protest and change the course of the game.
#6
jwhitson
Aug 16, 2008 7:36:20 Politely show your DM the list of treasure parcels in the DMG and say, "We're supposed to have all the treasure from all of these previous parcels in order to be able to fight anything even close to our level."

If that doesn't work, find a new DM.
#7
netjack
Aug 16, 2008 12:01:55 I should also mention that we fell down a pit "THAT WAS FILED WITH RICHERS, even though gold means nothing now, a room full of it can still be worth something". We used rope to climb down, and the dragon burned the rope on the first round. "we ended it right there."

So there is no escape. O well, at least we will enjoy a new campaign soon. I think he planed this, seeing how this is actually going to be the last session for a while, since he has to move into his college dorm next week, so we don't have any idea how long it will take to get resettled.
#8
kouk
Aug 16, 2008 19:53:34 Er, ending on a high note I see?
#9
the_ragi
Aug 16, 2008 22:33:50 Even if you manage to actually kill the dragon, he'll probably make its corpse land inside the pit and crush all the characters.

He should really re-read the phb and dmg. :raincloud
#10
degausser
Aug 17, 2008 7:30:44 Okay, don't kill me for suggesting this BUT:

He's clearly running a low-magic campaign. Now, ask yourself are magic items common? If not, then it's a low-magic campaign, and everything is, more or less, fine. If it's just you that's getting shafted . . . yes, have a sit down with him.

NOW, the DMG gives rules for making your own mosters. He's probably going to scale the monster to your abilites. That is, if he's a DM with half a brain. If he's not, then I suggest looking for a new guy.

As a DM, well, I'm not happy with the DMG telling people what magic items they HAVE to have at what levels. It seems kinda stupid to me. If I want to scale down the monsters to run a low-magic campaign, then that should be my perogative. As long as the players are having fun (btw, before this point, have you been having fun? You hit lvl 8 so I assume you've been having enough fun to stick with the guy. . .), and no one is dying off like flies, then that's all that matters.

Now, if everyone and his brother (except you) has a magic sword +5 and you are constantly shafted, then he sounds like a bad DM, and you should do something.

Oh, also, how much cash do you guys have? You didn't mention your coinage, but if he's giving you excess gold, you could always try buying the magic items you need if he allows that sort of thing. Try it in a major town, or ask a mage to commission them. Might be worth checking into if he allows it.
#11
karanth
Aug 17, 2008 8:10:46 In lieu of the standard hammergun reply, might I suggest you try a forklift?

Nothing beats the good old forklift gun.
#12
degausser
Aug 17, 2008 8:13:22
In lieu of the standard hammergun reply, might I suggest you try a forklift?

Nothing beats the good old forklift gun.

YAY! Somoene else has played that game! At least, I hope your refering to Escape Veolocity. Man, that was a great game.
#13
karanth
Aug 17, 2008 8:59:21
YAY! Somoene else has played that game! At least, I hope your refering to Escape Veolocity. Man, that was a great game.

Totally was, and it gets better the more games they make.

Still won't include it in the stock scenarios, but there are still plugs all over for it.

But the point stands, forkliftgun>hammergun.
#14
methanegranola
Aug 17, 2008 17:57:15 do you think there is a secret way you are supposed to beat it? like a secret trap or something?

in the dmg it says that you can fight monsters of up to 4 or so levels higher than you as just a "hard" encounter not even a lethal one, it seems like level 8s should be able to handle this, unless you have no way of getting out of the pit and the dragon snipes you from above

it may just be a mistake, he didnt judge the encounter right, he wanted to scare you and make a memorable boss battle, but that is hard to do without killing them

or maybe you made him angry, how have you been behaving this game? it isnt like a bad dm to accidentally throw a really really hard encounter when hes annoyed

no magic items may be a bigger impedement than i think

how did you get that far without a cleric?
#15
netjack
Aug 18, 2008 0:49:43 Well, we did end up beating the young black dragon. Probably may have been due to the fact that both me and the paladin both critical ed the dragon for a total of 100+ damage. It was a tough battle, requiring everyone to use thier second winds, and that paladin with all his abilities that let you heal damage "while hitting people?". Also, we fought the black dragons son, not the actual black dragon that owns this dungeon. So instead of fighting and adult one, we fought the young one, and he didn't care because it was his fault and "blah blah blah story"

Well, after understanding his views on magical items, he doesn't ever want something like this to happen. "Well well well, i found this nice firesword of awesome, but I already have this ice sword of coolness. Hmmm, I think ill keep my ice sword. Hey, this shock ling thunderous sword seems like something ill need to upgrade to."

Rather he wants this reaction of "OMG I FOUND A FREAKEN SWORD THAT SHOOTS FREAKEN FIRE. THIS IS THE MOST AMAZING THING I HAVE EVER SEEN. IM NEVER LETTING THIS BABY OUT OF MY SIGHT."

Needless to say, after we fought the dragon, the dungeon began to crumble around itself, so we couldn't get the chance to actually loot the room. "IT WAS A MORAL DECISION, TO SEE IF YOU COULD TRUST EVIL" Well we would have if the natural 20 on knowlege for the black dragon was you saying "DON'T EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER TRUST BLACK DRAGONS" (WELL, I was excepting you to stab the undead god body through the heart after the dragon told you too)

We would have if you didn't say "DONT EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER TRUST A BLACK DRAGON THERE CHAOTIC EVIL!!!!!" Hell, i didn't even know they where chaotic evil until you told me. (WELL, I wasn't expecting you guys to MOVE THE UNDEAD BODY AROUND THE ROOM, and then infect it with the fighter's cruse!!!) WHAT WHERE WE SUPPOSE TO DO, THE KNOWLEDGE CHECK SAID NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER TRUST BLACK DRAGONS. (Well did you notice he didn't kill you AFTER YOU KILLED HIS SON) Well we might have considered that if you didn't put so much point to the "DON'T EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER TRUST A BLACK DRAGON!" part.

Anyway

Hell, just to get the items we want takes alot. One dagger = 5 arrows? "and it changes depending on the town." I understand what he is trying to do with the magical items now. but I'm woundering why he gives us so little to want to trade out. For example, we didn't really get any actual loot. Except a waterskin full of dragon blood. A dragons tooth and horn, and 2 magical items. (+2 thunder sword FINALLY, all though I use a bow....., and a +2 full plate armor) "We though, hey, dead dragon, I wounder if the blood is worth anything". So we traded all that for a dragon stuff "not the items" ritual book, and some rituals for the book. "some how i feel riped off" As for actual equipment, I still have a hard time trying to get 50 feet of rope, since we didn't get anything, but those.

Well, atleast the story is fun..... but the actual trading mechanics he is trying to do is just frustrating. GOD DAMN IT I JUST WANT SOME ARROWS. THEY ARNT EVEN THAT HARD TO MAKE.
#16
kouk
Aug 18, 2008 5:45:53
Well, atleast the story is fun..... but the actual trading mechanics he is trying to do is just frustrating. GOD DAMN IT I JUST WANT SOME ARROWS. THEY ARNT EVEN THAT HARD TO MAKE.

So just tell him that and see if the other players don't agree with you.

And make a point of learning to make your own arrows. In a world where nobody trades jack, then you have to be self-sufficient.
#17
zaydrache
Aug 18, 2008 12:45:44 Well a couple of points.

1. Black dragons are evil not chaotic evil and a better description would have been "Black Dragons are deceptive by nature and can many time lead unwary adventures into clever traps." That way the characters are clued in that there is a greater than average chance of being double crossed.

2. 5 levels with an item is more than enough so you are not constantly switching out weapons and armor.

3. As I stated on the previous thread if he created that world where all practical items are worth so much stealing should be a perfectly acceptable way to acquire items. If not all rewards for quest should be items. All else fails pull the mysteriously found "auto refilling quiver of you are a bad DM".

4. At least he is going to be gone for a while. While he is, recommend he actually read the PHB, MM and DMG for 4th before running another campaign. He hasn't done so already which is obvious on being stuck on so many ideas from previous editions which are different now.

5. Find a new DM or run a game with him in it so he can see the correct way to run a game.

If all these fail I'm sorry. Try to enjoy the games you get to play and don't let someone who is not getting some of the most fundamental concepts of the new system poison your impression of the system.
#18
CCS
Aug 18, 2008 14:11:27 So your characters know what type of threat they're about to face.....

And you feel that you don't have what it takes to beat such a thing.

Well, only a fool (or someone stuck in a railroad type game) would continue forward.

So why complain about it to us?? Why not do something creative, such as: .have your characters stop & do more research on the beast,
.hire NPC assistance,
.seek out better equipment (beyond just opening the PHB & lamenting that you can't buy item x). Maybe there's some key piece of gear you're meant to discover before the encounter.
.Surprise the DM & try and TALK your way out of the encounter. Sure, killing the thing may be exciting, but if you obviously aren't equiped to do so (either in reality or just in your PoV) then it's time to try something else.... Before it eats you, try & find out what it wants. Is there any thing you could do for it that it can't do itself due to being a dragon, undead, etc?
The best thing is that this is essentially a free action, even if seated firmly upon a train car. Afterall, you can always fall back on the old standard of "Roll inititive" the next round.....
#19
nowiwantmydmg
Aug 18, 2008 16:53:46 The DM wants a game where magic is rare and magic items are wonderous items to be cherished? That doesn't seem out of line, especially given how things went down. The problem here is your expectations don't match your DMs, an OOC chat is required if you aren't getting your share of useful items(If most of them help characters more often then yours), but seems like a good game.

I'd totally play in it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 netjack Aug 16, 2008 1:35:14	So we are going to fight an undead dragon in theses conditions. We know its a black dragon of some type. No (2) magical items, basic array stats from player hand book, level 8. Here are all the magical items the party has. 1. A neckless that gives a +1 deflection bonus. 2. light leather armor that gives an additional +1 to ac and once a day can increase any save by +2 and an immediate action. That is all. O and a piece of wood that can turn into a small row boat that fits 3 people. "these 4 of us mind you." Everything else are standard weapons and items. We are a party of 4, 2 fighters, 1 paladin, and a ranger. "I KNOW WE DON'T HAVE A CLERIC!" WHAT SHOULD WE DO! What are our chances. Here is a more detailed explanation on our situation. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1074861
#2 kouk Aug 16, 2008 2:19:15	Seriously there is nothing you can do, other than talk to your DM. Venting is fine and all but don't expect any tactical combat advice for dealing with your dislike for the DM's game -- besides of course people saying things like "The books have 4 corners for a reason," "Time for a hammergun," and "Hit him with a folding chair." If you believe a fight is hopeless, don't take it up. Just run. In the game and in the gaming group.
#3 Novacat Aug 16, 2008 2:28:49	Yes, without having a sit-down with your DM as I described in the other thread, I call the situation hopeless. Fortunately, your ranger should be fairly demoralized by now, what with all the nothing he's been doing lately, so you should have a good excuse to run away. In fact, if he doesn't yield in regards magic items, that's the answer. Your characters have a pretty good idea how powerful they are, and they should be able to realize that they're out of their league. Don't fight the dragon. Run away, avoid the encounter at all costs (after all, this is your lives we're talking about). If your DM objects, or tells you that it's unheroic or any BS, tell him that neither you nor your character are about to commit suicide by fighting a beast that you are clearly not equipped to fight. Then, go see if anyone's been having a kobold or goblin problem, stating that that's clearly what your characters are intended to do, since that's all they're equipped to do.
#4 Zaistars Aug 16, 2008 4:10:13	yea you should have some magic sh!t by now and a dragon of equal level is suppose to be a fight for 5 char. Run like scared little Biznatches and laugh as the dragon melts you down and you start a new game (far from your current DM)
#5 retinal_haze Aug 16, 2008 5:05:44	You should in character say talk to the rest of the party as follows: You: "Hey guys, you know this fight is beyond us?" Party: "You do have a point there" You: "I suggest we make a strategic withdraw and find something we can defeat with more confidence" Party: "Capital idea good sir!" The party gets to decide what goes on just as much as the DM. Its his job to make the game fun, not hard. If its not fun, you're within your rights to protest and change the course of the game.
#6 jwhitson Aug 16, 2008 7:36:20	Politely show your DM the list of treasure parcels in the DMG and say, "We're supposed to have all the treasure from all of these previous parcels in order to be able to fight anything even close to our level." If that doesn't work, find a new DM.
#7 netjack Aug 16, 2008 12:01:55	I should also mention that we fell down a pit "THAT WAS FILED WITH RICHERS, even though gold means nothing now, a room full of it can still be worth something". We used rope to climb down, and the dragon burned the rope on the first round. "we ended it right there." So there is no escape. O well, at least we will enjoy a new campaign soon. I think he planed this, seeing how this is actually going to be the last session for a while, since he has to move into his college dorm next week, so we don't have any idea how long it will take to get resettled.
#8 kouk Aug 16, 2008 19:53:34	Er, ending on a high note I see?
#9 the_ragi Aug 16, 2008 22:33:50	Even if you manage to actually kill the dragon, he'll probably make its corpse land inside the pit and crush all the characters. He should really re-read the phb and dmg. :raincloud
#10 degausser Aug 17, 2008 7:30:44	Okay, don't kill me for suggesting this BUT: He's clearly running a low-magic campaign. Now, ask yourself are magic items common? If not, then it's a low-magic campaign, and everything is, more or less, fine. If it's just you that's getting shafted . . . yes, have a sit down with him. NOW, the DMG gives rules for making your own mosters. He's probably going to scale the monster to your abilites. That is, if he's a DM with half a brain. If he's not, then I suggest looking for a new guy. As a DM, well, I'm not happy with the DMG telling people what magic items they HAVE to have at what levels. It seems kinda stupid to me. If I want to scale down the monsters to run a low-magic campaign, then that should be my perogative. As long as the players are having fun (btw, before this point, have you been having fun? You hit lvl 8 so I assume you've been having enough fun to stick with the guy. . .), and no one is dying off like flies, then that's all that matters. Now, if everyone and his brother (except you) has a magic sword +5 and you are constantly shafted, then he sounds like a bad DM, and you should do something. Oh, also, how much cash do you guys have? You didn't mention your coinage, but if he's giving you excess gold, you could always try buying the magic items you need if he allows that sort of thing. Try it in a major town, or ask a mage to commission them. Might be worth checking into if he allows it.
#11 karanth Aug 17, 2008 8:10:46	In lieu of the standard hammergun reply, might I suggest you try a forklift? Nothing beats the good old forklift gun.
#12 degausser Aug 17, 2008 8:13:22	In lieu of the standard hammergun reply, might I suggest you try a forklift? Nothing beats the good old forklift gun. YAY! Somoene else has played that game! At least, I hope your refering to Escape Veolocity. Man, that was a great game.
#13 karanth Aug 17, 2008 8:59:21	YAY! Somoene else has played that game! At least, I hope your refering to Escape Veolocity. Man, that was a great game. Totally was, and it gets better the more games they make. Still won't include it in the stock scenarios, but there are still plugs all over for it. But the point stands, forkliftgun>hammergun.
#14 methanegranola Aug 17, 2008 17:57:15	do you think there is a secret way you are supposed to beat it? like a secret trap or something? in the dmg it says that you can fight monsters of up to 4 or so levels higher than you as just a "hard" encounter not even a lethal one, it seems like level 8s should be able to handle this, unless you have no way of getting out of the pit and the dragon snipes you from above it may just be a mistake, he didnt judge the encounter right, he wanted to scare you and make a memorable boss battle, but that is hard to do without killing them or maybe you made him angry, how have you been behaving this game? it isnt like a bad dm to accidentally throw a really really hard encounter when hes annoyed no magic items may be a bigger impedement than i think how did you get that far without a cleric?
#15 netjack Aug 18, 2008 0:49:43	Well, we did end up beating the young black dragon. Probably may have been due to the fact that both me and the paladin both critical ed the dragon for a total of 100+ damage. It was a tough battle, requiring everyone to use thier second winds, and that paladin with all his abilities that let you heal damage "while hitting people?". Also, we fought the black dragons son, not the actual black dragon that owns this dungeon. So instead of fighting and adult one, we fought the young one, and he didn't care because it was his fault and "blah blah blah story" Well, after understanding his views on magical items, he doesn't ever want something like this to happen. "Well well well, i found this nice firesword of awesome, but I already have this ice sword of coolness. Hmmm, I think ill keep my ice sword. Hey, this shock ling thunderous sword seems like something ill need to upgrade to." Rather he wants this reaction of "OMG I FOUND A FREAKEN SWORD THAT SHOOTS FREAKEN FIRE. THIS IS THE MOST AMAZING THING I HAVE EVER SEEN. IM NEVER LETTING THIS BABY OUT OF MY SIGHT." Needless to say, after we fought the dragon, the dungeon began to crumble around itself, so we couldn't get the chance to actually loot the room. "IT WAS A MORAL DECISION, TO SEE IF YOU COULD TRUST EVIL" Well we would have if the natural 20 on knowlege for the black dragon was you saying "DON'T EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER TRUST BLACK DRAGONS" (WELL, I was excepting you to stab the undead god body through the heart after the dragon told you too) We would have if you didn't say "DONT EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER TRUST A BLACK DRAGON THERE CHAOTIC EVIL!!!!!" Hell, i didn't even know they where chaotic evil until you told me. (WELL, I wasn't expecting you guys to MOVE THE UNDEAD BODY AROUND THE ROOM, and then infect it with the fighter's cruse!!!) WHAT WHERE WE SUPPOSE TO DO, THE KNOWLEDGE CHECK SAID NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER TRUST BLACK DRAGONS. (Well did you notice he didn't kill you AFTER YOU KILLED HIS SON) Well we might have considered that if you didn't put so much point to the "DON'T EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER TRUST A BLACK DRAGON!" part. Anyway Hell, just to get the items we want takes alot. One dagger = 5 arrows? "and it changes depending on the town." I understand what he is trying to do with the magical items now. but I'm woundering why he gives us so little to want to trade out. For example, we didn't really get any actual loot. Except a waterskin full of dragon blood. A dragons tooth and horn, and 2 magical items. (+2 thunder sword FINALLY, all though I use a bow....., and a +2 full plate armor) "We though, hey, dead dragon, I wounder if the blood is worth anything". So we traded all that for a dragon stuff "not the items" ritual book, and some rituals for the book. "some how i feel riped off" As for actual equipment, I still have a hard time trying to get 50 feet of rope, since we didn't get anything, but those. Well, atleast the story is fun..... but the actual trading mechanics he is trying to do is just frustrating. GOD DAMN IT I JUST WANT SOME ARROWS. THEY ARNT EVEN THAT HARD TO MAKE.
#16 kouk Aug 18, 2008 5:45:53	Well, atleast the story is fun..... but the actual trading mechanics he is trying to do is just frustrating. GOD DAMN IT I JUST WANT SOME ARROWS. THEY ARNT EVEN THAT HARD TO MAKE. So just tell him that and see if the other players don't agree with you. And make a point of learning to make your own arrows. In a world where nobody trades jack, then you have to be self-sufficient.
#17 zaydrache Aug 18, 2008 12:45:44	Well a couple of points. 1. Black dragons are evil not chaotic evil and a better description would have been "Black Dragons are deceptive by nature and can many time lead unwary adventures into clever traps." That way the characters are clued in that there is a greater than average chance of being double crossed. 2. 5 levels with an item is more than enough so you are not constantly switching out weapons and armor. 3. As I stated on the previous thread if he created that world where all practical items are worth so much stealing should be a perfectly acceptable way to acquire items. If not all rewards for quest should be items. All else fails pull the mysteriously found "auto refilling quiver of you are a bad DM". 4. At least he is going to be gone for a while. While he is, recommend he actually read the PHB, MM and DMG for 4th before running another campaign. He hasn't done so already which is obvious on being stuck on so many ideas from previous editions which are different now. 5. Find a new DM or run a game with him in it so he can see the correct way to run a game. If all these fail I'm sorry. Try to enjoy the games you get to play and don't let someone who is not getting some of the most fundamental concepts of the new system poison your impression of the system.
#18 CCS Aug 18, 2008 14:11:27	So your characters know what type of threat they're about to face..... And you feel that you don't have what it takes to beat such a thing. Well, only a fool (or someone stuck in a railroad type game) would continue forward. So why complain about it to us?? Why not do something creative, such as: .have your characters stop & do more research on the beast, .hire NPC assistance, .seek out better equipment (beyond just opening the PHB & lamenting that you can't buy item x). Maybe there's some key piece of gear you're meant to discover before the encounter. .Surprise the DM & try and TALK your way out of the encounter. Sure, killing the thing may be exciting, but if you obviously aren't equiped to do so (either in reality or just in your PoV) then it's time to try something else.... Before it eats you, try & find out what it wants. Is there any thing you could do for it that it can't do itself due to being a dragon, undead, etc? The best thing is that this is essentially a free action, even if seated firmly upon a train car. Afterall, you can always fall back on the old standard of "Roll inititive" the next round.....
#19 nowiwantmydmg Aug 18, 2008 16:53:46	The DM wants a game where magic is rare and magic items are wonderous items to be cherished? That doesn't seem out of line, especially given how things went down. The problem here is your expectations don't match your DMs, an OOC chat is required if you aren't getting your share of useful items(If most of them help characters more often then yours), but seems like a good game. I'd totally play in it.