Unsure of Next Move... - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 white_lightning Mar 13, 2012 0:58:56	Greetings all. Got a bit of a situation not sure how to deal with and do need advice on the next move to make. So here goes. The situation: In the current game I am in, my character has recently died. Originally I was playing as a Hengeyokai Assassin/Vampire build that survive until the final boss battle of our current adventure. So as the character has died I was presented the option to make a new character. Our game is currently on hold due to a few of the players being on vacation so I have some time to really think of a good one. While exploring the wizard forums I decided to see what the homebrew community had made which I found the an interesting write up of a Soul Knife. For reference it can be found here: community.wizards.com/embertiger/blog/20... The problem comes in a few days ago when I heard back from the GM. Naturally I was aware of the possibility of him saying no which he did. Though out of curiosity I simply wanted to know what was his reasons. Keep in mind, I am discussing this at a mutual friend's place. Simply he said that he was worried about balance issues without having it play tested and I did agree that was a valid concern. Though as I was about to explain why I wanted to go with this, answering the GM's question, another player listening jumps in and begins to counter argue me about using it. Not just the write up it self, but homebrew's in general, citing they are basically stupid, and also further arguing about not using Psionic based classes period as this is not D&D. His specific words were "Why don't you play as something cool, like an Ice power based Wizard, or a twin bladed Ranger". Even still I did not get a chance to present my reason when the GM ultimately ruled in favor of the the points the other player stated, remarking that my new class would be quote "preferable" to stay with something that was of the printed sources, and something more attuned to D&D. The Thought Process Naturally I am really pissed off at this. First because I didn't even get a chance to say two words about using the homebrew and having a civil discussion about it. I do realize a GM is well within their rights to raise concern and limit content for balance purposes, but so to I am within my rights to raise points in favor of a said item. Secondly (and more of my personal grip) I am tired of having to see D&D be restricted to this "it must be like Lord of the Rings" mentality. Heaven forbid the game deviate from this tradition even so slightly. As of this point I am considering to walk. Not for the reason of not being able to play as the homebrew but being forced into restrictions I did not agree to in the first place and not being able to present my argument, but just being ruled over. Any further mentions to the GM have been meet with the same reply of "My decision is final!". So good folk of the forums, what say you to such an even as this?
#2 eehlert Mar 13, 2012 4:44:10	How much are you in love with the campaign, the story, the other players, and the DM in general? If you aren't overly attached to most or all of the aforementioned, walk. If you enjoy most of the aforementioned, stick with it and make it work. From your description, your DM had no intention of allowing you to use a homebrew class, and used your friend's interrupting justification to take the heat off of his decision. If it was a genuine case of "I'm listening, go on" from your DM, he would have given you an opportunity to lobby for your idea instead of letting someone stomp all over it and draw a conclusion from that. If you can handle your creativity, or at least the potential for it, being squelched so quickly, go ahead and stick with it. If you're looking for an opinion based solely on the information you have given here, with no other assumptions made, I would say just walk. DMs with the attitude you described here leave a really bitter taste in my mouth, and should be avoided as such.
#3 wystenv2 Mar 13, 2012 7:09:54	Firstly, it is understandable that greviences would be held against online published homebrewed information. Afterall, for many it is felt that thes external classes will often produce a unfair advantage due to existing outside the framework of the game. Whether or not this is correct is irrlivent as often those opposed to it will remain strongly apposed regardless of what data is put infront of them. That being said, these discusions are best had away from the table so that one can have a level headed discussion without external infearance so that the pros and the cons of introducing this homebrew can be caculated carefully. After all, often rules present in a class may interlink in ways that may have gigantic consquences. Rather, the concept should be given over to the DM and together you can modify it to suit your games needs. Secondly, have you spoken about running a Soulknife as per the existing template? That might make it easier for your fellow players to stomach, as a homebrewed psion is a extreme that may premote a strong reaction. Either way, I would encourage that you discuss the information away from loud mouths, but be mindful that their feelings will influence the adventure also and in the end the DM's decision is always final. I don't see any problem with pisons, but I don't really like homebrewed stuff, since it's often very personal perspthic.
#4 zyraen Mar 13, 2012 7:41:01	Pick your time to talk to the DM. I can't see the link, but I'm generally wary of Homebrew Classes as well. Then again, if you're not happy with the general setting which I think is the real issue, consider walking. "I am tired of having to see D&D be restricted to this "it must be like Lord of the Rings" mentality. Heaven forbid the game deviate from this tradition even so slightly." is a very strong emotion, and having to pick a Class you don't want to might just be a straw that broke the already burdened Camel's back.
#5 Kaganfindel Mar 13, 2012 11:39:50	I can't access the writeup. Could you approximate the character concept using an existing character class? What about the homebrew class got you interested in playing it?
#6 Cohen95 Mar 13, 2012 15:59:01	Revenant assassin/vampire.
#7 Litmus Mar 13, 2012 16:10:24	DMing is a time-consuming process, and if you're using homebrew content there is a pretty good chance that it will be unbalanced. At the very least you're expecting your DM to spend an hour or so reviewing the class on top of all the other prep that he has to do for each session. It's possible that you haven't even looked at it in as much depth as he'll need to. As soon as he allows you to use homebrew content, he sets a precedent where everyone else can reasonably expect to be able to do the same. He's not being the least bit unreasonable, and he's said his decision is final. If it's a big deal for you, then you've probably picked a campaign/DM that isn't a good fit for you. If you're "tired of having to see D&D be restricted to this "it must be like Lord of the Rings" mentality" then perhaps this is a golden opportunity for you to put that to right and DM your own campaign.
#8 warrl Mar 15, 2012 19:47:31	1) Your DM is totally within his rights to discuss the matter further with you, or not. After all, looking the write-up over and discussing it with you would take up another chunk of his time. I don't think I would make the same decision he did; but I am not living with the same other time-consuming and energy-consuming factors in my life that he is, and for that matter I am also not him. 2) That other player was out of line in butting into the discussion, as well as being more than a bit of an idjit in the arguments he offered. Homebrews are not automatically stupid - you don't magically become a competent game designer the moment someone starts paying you to do it. Hopefully you become competent first, i.e. you create some good homebrews, and then start getting paid for it. Psionics has been part of D&D since the early 80s if not the late 70s. Many people would say that yet another two-blade ranger or frostcheese wizard would not be interesting to them. 3) What you relate here - which may not be the entire story - does not convey to me the idea that anyone has an "it must be like Lord of the Rings" mentality. It appears from what you say (and the presence of a concern about class balance in particular) that you are playing 4E; LotR did not have Dragonborn, or three distinct varieties of Elves, or Tieflings, and that's just the PHB1 races. It also lacked both two-blade rangers and frostcheese wizards, at least as major characters. 4) It is of course your right to stop participating in that gaming group - for a good reason, a bad reason, or no reason at all. I'm not clear on what new restrictions are being imposed; I would have always assumed that anything homebrewed would be at DM's discretion. But if after careful deliberation you feel that's the right thing for you to do, then do it. Just don't do it to punish other people in the group, because you'll actually punish only yourself.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

white_lightning

Mar 13, 2012 0:58:56

Greetings all.

Got a bit of a situation not sure how to deal with and do need advice on the next move to make. So here goes.

The situation:

In the current game I am in, my character has recently died. Originally I was playing as a Hengeyokai Assassin/Vampire build that survive until the final boss battle of our current adventure. So as the character has died I was presented the option to make a new character. Our game is currently on hold due to a few of the players being on vacation so I have some time to really think of a good one. While exploring the wizard forums I decided to see what the homebrew community had made which I found the an interesting write up of a Soul Knife. For reference it can be found here: community.wizards.com/embertiger/blog/20...

The problem comes in a few days ago when I heard back from the GM. Naturally I was aware of the possibility of him saying no which he did. Though out of curiosity I simply wanted to know what was his reasons. Keep in mind, I am discussing this at a mutual friend's place. Simply he said that he was worried about balance issues without having it play tested and I did agree that was a valid concern. Though as I was about to explain why I wanted to go with this, answering the GM's question, another player listening jumps in and begins to counter argue me about using it. Not just the write up it self, but homebrew's in general, citing they are basically stupid, and also further arguing about not using Psionic based classes period as this is not D&D. His specific words were "Why don't you play as something cool, like an Ice power based Wizard, or a twin bladed Ranger".

Even still I did not get a chance to present my reason when the GM ultimately ruled in favor of the the points the other player stated, remarking that my new class would be quote "preferable" to stay with something that was of the printed sources, and something more attuned to D&D.

The Thought Process

Naturally I am really pissed off at this. First because I didn't even get a chance to say two words about using the homebrew and having a civil discussion about it. I do realize a GM is well within their rights to raise concern and limit content for balance purposes, but so to I am within my rights to raise points in favor of a said item. Secondly (and more of my personal grip) I am tired of having to see D&D be restricted to this "it must be like Lord of the Rings" mentality. Heaven forbid the game deviate from this tradition even so slightly.

As of this point I am considering to walk. Not for the reason of not being able to play as the homebrew but being forced into restrictions I did not agree to in the first place and not being able to present my argument, but just being ruled over. Any further mentions to the GM have been meet with the same reply of "My decision is final!".

So good folk of the forums, what say you to such an even as this?

eehlert

Mar 13, 2012 4:44:10

How much are you in love with the campaign, the story, the other players, and the DM in general? If you aren't overly attached to most or all of the aforementioned, walk. If you enjoy most of the aforementioned, stick with it and make it work.

From your description, your DM had no intention of allowing you to use a homebrew class, and used your friend's interrupting justification to take the heat off of his decision. If it was a genuine case of "I'm listening, go on" from your DM, he would have given you an opportunity to lobby for your idea instead of letting someone stomp all over it and draw a conclusion from that. If you can handle your creativity, or at least the potential for it, being squelched so quickly, go ahead and stick with it.

If you're looking for an opinion based solely on the information you have given here, with no other assumptions made, I would say just walk. DMs with the attitude you described here leave a really bitter taste in my mouth, and should be avoided as such.

wystenv2

Mar 13, 2012 7:09:54

Firstly, it is understandable that greviences would be held against online published homebrewed information. Afterall, for many it is felt that thes external classes will often produce a unfair advantage due to existing outside the framework of the game. Whether or not this is correct is irrlivent as often those opposed to it will remain strongly apposed regardless of what data is put infront of them.

That being said, these discusions are best had away from the table so that one can have a level headed discussion without external infearance so that the pros and the cons of introducing this homebrew can be caculated carefully. After all, often rules present in a class may interlink in ways that may have gigantic consquences. Rather, the concept should be given over to the DM and together you can modify it to suit your games needs.

Secondly, have you spoken about running a Soulknife as per the existing template? That might make it easier for your fellow players to stomach, as a homebrewed psion is a extreme that may premote a strong reaction.

Either way, I would encourage that you discuss the information away from loud mouths, but be mindful that their feelings will influence the adventure also and in the end the DM's decision is always final. I don't see any problem with pisons, but I don't really like homebrewed stuff, since it's often very personal perspthic.

zyraen

Mar 13, 2012 7:41:01

Pick your time to talk to the DM. I can't see the link, but I'm generally wary of Homebrew Classes as well.

Then again, if you're not happy with the general setting which I think is the real issue, consider walking.
"I am tired of having to see D&D be restricted to this "it must be like Lord of the Rings" mentality. Heaven forbid the game deviate from this tradition even so slightly." is a very strong emotion, and having to pick a Class you don't want to might just be a straw that broke the already burdened Camel's back.

Kaganfindel

Mar 13, 2012 11:39:50

I can't access the writeup. Could you approximate the character concept using an existing character class? What about the homebrew class got you interested in playing it?

Cohen95

Mar 13, 2012 15:59:01

Revenant assassin/vampire.

Litmus

Mar 13, 2012 16:10:24

DMing is a time-consuming process, and if you're using homebrew content there is a pretty good chance that it will be unbalanced. At the very least you're expecting your DM to spend an hour or so reviewing the class on top of all the other prep that he has to do for each session. It's possible that you haven't even looked at it in as much depth as he'll need to. As soon as he allows you to use homebrew content, he sets a precedent where everyone else can reasonably expect to be able to do the same. He's not being the least bit unreasonable, and he's said his decision is final. If it's a big deal for you, then you've probably picked a campaign/DM that isn't a good fit for you.

If you're "tired of having to see D&D be restricted to this "it must be like Lord of the Rings" mentality" then perhaps this is a golden opportunity for you to put that to right and DM your own campaign.

warrl

Mar 15, 2012 19:47:31

1) Your DM is totally within his rights to discuss the matter further with you, or not. After all, looking the write-up over and discussing it with you would take up another chunk of his time. I don't think I would make the same decision he did; but I am not living with the same other time-consuming and energy-consuming factors in my life that he is, and for that matter I am also not him.

2) That other player was out of line in butting into the discussion, as well as being more than a bit of an idjit in the arguments he offered.

Homebrews are not automatically stupid - you don't magically become a competent game designer the moment someone starts paying you to do it. Hopefully you become competent first, i.e. you create some good homebrews, and then start getting paid for it.

Psionics has been part of D&D since the early 80s if not the late 70s.

Many people would say that yet another two-blade ranger or frostcheese wizard would not be interesting to them.

3) What you relate here - which may not be the entire story - does not convey to me the idea that anyone has an "it must be like Lord of the Rings" mentality. It appears from what you say (and the presence of a concern about class balance in particular) that you are playing 4E; LotR did not have Dragonborn, or three distinct varieties of Elves, or Tieflings, and that's just the PHB1 races. It also lacked both two-blade rangers and frostcheese wizards, at least as major characters.

4) It is of course your right to stop participating in that gaming group - for a good reason, a bad reason, or no reason at all. I'm not clear on what new restrictions are being imposed; I would have always assumed that anything homebrewed would be at DM's discretion. But if after careful deliberation you feel that's the right thing for you to do, then do it. Just don't do it to punish other people in the group, because you'll actually punish only yourself.