Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 dc_quicksilver Mar 17, 2008 14:47:22	I created an creature using the Unseely Fey Template found in the Dragon Compendium. When I rolled for my eyes, I got the Blind Sight 30ft. At first I was okay with it. I was hoping for the darkvision, however I decided to stay with what I rolled. Now, I learned that my DM is primarily using ranged opponents against us. This makes me completely useless in the group. Another person in the group cast low light vision and darkvision on me, however the GM decided that because I don't have eyes, I can't benefit from the spells because I have no actually vision. I looked up Lifesense in the Libris Mortis, however I can't take that feat as I do not meet its requirements. Is there anything that I can do besides some polymorph spell to gain a useful vision with a decent range?
#2 cartigan Mar 17, 2008 15:46:58	If you are a caster, you could try for 1 level of Mindbender and take the Mindsight feat - see every thing that isn't mindless within 100ft. I have no idea how else to get telepathy.
#3 lsmft Mar 17, 2008 16:13:48	What class are you? If you are an arcane caster, you could use the Alter Self spell to turn into something with eyes.
#4 crimsondeath Mar 17, 2008 19:03:49	Synesthete is a level 1 Psion/Wilder/PsyWar power. One of its uses explicitly allows you to perceive light even if blinded or lacking eyes. There are a variety of ways to gain access. You could try asking your DM if you can create a custom continuous item of it, or you could go into a class or prestiege class that has it on its power list. It also has a decent duration, so you'll eventually be able to keep it up constantly if you decide to advance in a psionic class.
#5 angelus_truelove Mar 17, 2008 21:04:08	Why are you blind? Having blind sight doesn't automatically make you blind, it just means that when you are blinded you sense things within 30 ft. I don't have the Dragon Compendium, so unless it says you don't have normal sight and only have the sight you rolled, then you should not be blind, just have that extra ability.
#6 crimsondeath Mar 18, 2008 2:20:14	Why are you blind? Having blind sight doesn't automatically make you blind, it just means that when you are blinded you sense things within 30 ft. I don't have the Dragon Compendium, so unless it says you don't have normal sight and only have the sight you rolled, then you should not be blind, just have that extra ability. I do have the Dragon Compendium, and it does say that you lack normal sight if you have that ability.
#7 kelvinaw273 Mar 18, 2008 2:57:44	OK, so you cannot 'see' past thirty feet. Can I point out that within thirty feet nothing can hide from you? You have negated invisibility and the like against the party, no small feat in itself. Take the good with the bad, and let the rest of the party deal with the ranged attackers. BTW, if you don't have eyes, I can understand why the spells didn't work. But if you could get a clairvoyance or wizard eye spell that should definitely work.
#8 drmorganes Mar 18, 2008 7:14:24	Tell me again why you agreed to randomly generate something as critical to an adventurer's long-term survival as sight? Petition your DM to change this crippling handicap to something that's actually playable, or wait for the inevitable death from ranged attack and roll a sighted PC. Seriously. There's nothing cool about your concept. Your character is completely useless vs opponents past 30'. Within 30', you're not much more than a move action away from a dirt nap.
#9 kelvinaw273 Mar 18, 2008 10:56:07	Tell me again why you agreed to randomly generate something as critical to an adventurer's long-term survival as sight? Petition your DM to change this crippling handicap to something that's actually playable, or wait for the inevitable death from ranged attack and roll a sighted PC. Seriously. There's nothing cool about your concept. Your character is completely useless vs opponents past 30'. Within 30', you're not much more than a move action away from a dirt nap. Or possibly ask him if you may have blindsense out further than blindsight - that would not over power you and would allow you to at least react to threats outside your immediate vicinity.
#10 cartigan Mar 18, 2008 11:31:23	I do have the Dragon Compendium, and it does say that you lack normal sight if you have that ability. There is a difference between being blind and having no eyes, well, in one direction anyway.
#11 crimsondeath Mar 18, 2008 11:40:51	There is a difference between being blind and having no eyes, well, in one direction anyway. And which direction would that be? And what'd the difference?
#12 mindolin Mar 18, 2008 12:21:03	blind usually means having eyes that don't work. Regenerate spell can fix that right up, or Remove Blindness. Not having eyes, well you need Regenerate for that, and Remove Blindness doesn't help. Seriously, go with Arcane Sight, or something like that. Or just get levels in Wizard or Sorcerer, get a Familiar, maybe a rat, and have it be your eyes, while it sits on your shoulder.
#13 mcpoyo Mar 18, 2008 13:45:27	Boost your listen checks through the roof, and use it to pinpoint your enemies. Use a familiar or the like (maybe some sort of trained bird) to call out when over the head or your enemies, so you know where they are via Listen check if they are moving silently or the like. I second Mindsight from LoM. Would work great here. On the other hand, take a step back from the ranged combat, utilize cover and such as much as possible. If they're within 30 feet, you see them anyhow as long as you have LoE to them. There's also a feat or three that increase blindsight range, iirc.
#14 vadasz Mar 18, 2008 14:51:49	I've played several successful blind characters in the past (what can I say? I'm a fan of old Rutger Hauer movies). If you play smart then having blindsight is far more advantageous in most situations than being sighted. Blindsight negates gaze attacks, eliminates darkness (magical or otherwise) penalties. You're always aware of everything you have line of effect to, within your range, no more invisibility, blur, concealment. The downside is of course long range combat, but you can negate much of those issues, keep in mind that you're aware of anything you have line of effect to, that means, logically, that you're aware of projectiles that enter the radius of your blindsight. While this does nothing to prevent the attack from hitting, it does give you important information on the direction of attack, at that point you simple take cover and wait. It's also very important that the rest of the party understand and support the character, talking is a free action so keeping the blind member up to date should be easy, they can also be the characters eyes out of combat. There's a feat in CAD, Hear the Unseen something like that, that allows you to do some amazing things with listen checks, and any blind character should have max ranks in listen, that helps a lot. The two most effective characters I had that were blind where a rogue knife fighter who relied on misdirection and slight of hand (had max ranks in bluff and disguise) and pretended to be an old blind beggar. He had the old Blindfold of True Darkness from the AaEG. He was pretty effective in urban environments, perfect person to keep watch outside the Inn. and in the wild it didn't really matter, but with sneak attack and usually being the one to initiate combat resulted in him being very effective in back alley combat. Which translates pretty well into cramped dungeon combat. The other was a psion/soulknife/monk gestalt. Out of combat he used his psicrystal as a "seeing eye dog" of sorts. In combat he activated any number of psionic powers that allowed him to sense his surroundings without sight. Basically, support and preparation can make almost anything an advantage, just depends on how you look at it (just like life). Sorry for duplicating a lot of what you said McPoyo, I started this much earlier in the morning then got sidetracked with work, the joys of posting from work lol, I just got back to finishing the post.
#15 crimsondeath Mar 18, 2008 15:06:00	blind usually means having eyes that don't work. Regenerate spell can fix that right up, or Remove Blindness. Not having eyes, well you need Regenerate for that, and Remove Blindness doesn't help. Seriously, go with Arcane Sight, or something like that. Or just get levels in Wizard or Sorcerer, get a Familiar, maybe a rat, and have it be your eyes, while it sits on your shoulder. Well, in this case, the character lacks eyes entirely due to a template. I doubt Remove Blindness or Regenerate would help very much. Also, if the DM won't allow Darkvision to work, I doubt he'd let Arcane Sight work either. (It won't hurt to ask though.) If you do decide to go with the Synesthete psionic power, note that you're still immune to gaze attacks even when feeling light in order to see.
#16 cartigan Mar 18, 2008 15:28:26	There's a feat in CAD, Hear the Unseen something like that, that allows you to do some amazing things with listen checks, and any blind character should have max ranks in listen, that helps a lot. Pointless with 30ft blindsight or blindsense.
#17 vadasz Mar 18, 2008 17:54:38	Pointless with 30ft blindsight or blindsense. The world exists beyond 30 feet, and you don't need line of effect to hear something.
#18 crimsondeath Mar 18, 2008 19:06:40	The world exists beyond 30 feet, and you don't need line of effect to hear something. But Hear the Unseen doesn't pinpoint anything farther than that. So, if you have Blindsight 30' or Blindsense 30', Hear the Unseen allows you to spend a Move action making a Listen check to discover information you already have.
#19 vadasz Mar 19, 2008 13:06:30	But Hear the Unseen doesn't pinpoint anything farther than that. So, if you have Blindsight 30' or Blindsense 30', Hear the Unseen allows you to spend a Move action making a Listen check to discover information you already have. That is true, but I thought the feat allowed you to know what the creature is as well, where the arguement could come up that a character with blindsight may not be able to tell what something is just where it is and its general size, but that's a GM adjucation call I'd think. Also it is possible to "hide" from blindsight by breaking line of effect in some cases. Hear the Unseen is just another layer of protection in my mind, as is a good listen check in general.
#20 crimsondeath Mar 19, 2008 13:20:00	That is true, but I thought the feat allowed you to know what the creature is as well, where the arguement could come up that a character with blindsight may not be able to tell what something is just where it is and its general size, but that's a GM adjucation call I'd think. Also it is possible to "hide" from blindsight by breaking line of effect in some cases. Hear the Unseen is just another layer of protection in my mind, as is a good listen check in general. Hear the Unseen doesn't say anything about determining the kind of creature an opponent is, only its location. The only clue you'd have about its size is how many squares it takes up. It also requires line of effect, so it won't help there either. And before you mention opponents with the Darkstalker feat, you can notice such a character with a successful Listen check anyway, so there's no reason to take a feat that adds +15 to the DC. I'm all for maxing out Listen. But there's no reason to take a feat that does less than your racial traits already do.
#21 vadasz Mar 19, 2008 14:12:00	I'm the biggest idiot ever. I could have saved us all a lot of trouble if I had checked my sources before posting, but apparently I just enjoy looking like a fool. When I said Hear the Unseen, I was clearly thinking of Keen-Eared Scout, but I confused the two feats names. So, you are all completely correct in your assessment of Hear the Unseen, and just replace everything I said with Keen-Eared Scout, and I'll go find a nice rock to crawl under.
#22 dc_quicksilver Mar 19, 2008 14:38:04	Boost your listen checks through the roof, and use it to pinpoint your enemies. Use a familiar or the like (maybe some sort of trained bird) to call out when over the head or your enemies, so you know where they are via Listen check if they are moving silently or the like. I second Mindsight from LoM. Would work great here. On the other hand, take a step back from the ranged combat, utilize cover and such as much as possible. If they're within 30 feet, you see them anyhow as long as you have LoE to them. There's also a feat or three that increase blindsight range, iirc. I have talked to my GM about this and he determined that since the opponent needs to have some verbal form of communication, the LoM feat Mindsight will only work on those creatures with a form of communication. If they do not have a form of communication, such as a beast, then I cannot locate them. I am happy with this new knowledge that I have gained. I saw that you stated that there is a feat or three that increases the range of your blindsight. I can't seem to find these feats. I also have never heard of any feats of this sort. I understand that it was iirc, however if anybody knows that would be very helpful. Also, if you are not born with eyes, can regeneration work on something that you never had?
#23 dc_quicksilver Mar 19, 2008 14:50:05	I'm the biggest idiot ever. I could have saved us all a lot of trouble if I had checked my sources before posting, but apparently I just enjoy looking like a fool. When I said Hear the Unseen, I was clearly thinking of Keen-Eared Scout, but I confused the two feats names. So, you are all completely correct in your assessment of Hear the Unseen, and just replace everything I said with Keen-Eared Scout, and I'll go find a nice rock to crawl under. I looked into the Complete Adventurer (CAD) and could not find either a prestige class or a feat called the Keen-Eared Scout. Is this located in the CAD?
#24 cartigan Mar 19, 2008 15:01:49	I have talked to my GM about this and he determined that since the opponent needs to have some verbal form of communication, the LoM feat Mindsight will only work on those creatures with a form of communication. If they do not have a form of communication, such as a beast, then I cannot locate them. Then your DM is being an asshat and you should dump the character for a new one. Maybe something that should teach him not to be such an asshat.
#25 crimsondeath Mar 19, 2008 15:08:48	I looked into the Complete Adventurer (CAD) and could not find either a prestige class or a feat called the Keen-Eared Scout. Is this located in the CAD? It's a feat in PHB2. The only problem I can find with it is the prerequisite: Alertness or Skill focus: Listen.
#26 pmurray%40bigpond.com Mar 19, 2008 22:26:56	Well, I think 30' blindsight is pretty damn good. Awesome for a rogue - there's nothing more useless than a rogue that needs a torch to go scouting. And in melee, it's as good as not being blind at all. If I was playing a rogue, and offered blindsight 30' instead of sight , I'd consider taking it. You lose dex bonus to AC vs ranged attacks ... but wouldn't that would be the case anyway for anyone who cannot see the attacker (normal vision in the dark)? See if you can get the DM to agree that either it's true for everyone (unless there's good light), or you are only flat-footed for the first attack unless the archer moves. Pump up your listen skill - the check is +1 per 10' of distance. You will easily be able to tell the direction that the thrum of bowstrings is coming from and take cover. I don't know if there's a feat that lets you do a listen check as a move action. Finally, grab a ring or vest or cloak or whatever of Entropic Shield. The 20% miss chance is about as good as having your dex bonus to AC (depending on the actual numbers). And you are never flat-footed with it. Entropic Sheild is a 1st level clerical spell, so the item won't be expensive. All in all, I think you have it pretty good.
#27 mcpoyo Mar 20, 2008 10:42:56	Apparently I was mistaken, I could have swore there was a feat that boosted it. Mayhaps I'm thinking of something way back in 3.0. I'll have to check to see where I got that from. Might have been a PrC feature or spell or something instead. That said, there IS a spell in the SpC called Blindsight, and it's Greater version (level 3 and 4, respectively, of both Cleric and Druid lists). Normal grants 30 foot (useless), but the Greater gives 60 foot. Combine that with a rod of Widen... Not a good effective measure, but it might be better than nothing. There's a feat that does one better than allow Listen checks as a move action, there's one that allows both a listen AND spot (useless in this situation, I know) as a free action: Quick Reconnoiter, from Dungeonscape (Page 46). Also, have your DM re-read Mindsight. As long as it has an Int Score, you know it's there. Just because you can't telepathically communicate doesn't mean you don't know they have a mind. Also, point out that Druidic covers animals, so they DO have a language. After that, if he still says no, you might want to seriously rethink the blindness thing unless you've got a lot of backup. Entropic Warding cloaks, Protection from Arrows, Displacement Effects, etc. Also, pick up Uncanny Dodge in any way you can, as soon as you can. You won't lose your Dex bonus or be flatfooted by those archers then.
#28 crimsondeath Mar 20, 2008 15:19:33	Also, point out that Druidic covers animals, so they DO have a language. No, it doesn't. However, tell him to open his MM to page 132 and read the Forest Gnome's listing for Automatic Languages.
#29 mcpoyo Mar 20, 2008 16:23:53	No, it doesn't. However, tell him to open his MM to page 132 and read the Forest Gnome's listing for Automatic Languages. Hey now, if his DM can pull stuff out of his ass that makes no sense, I think I can use house rules that have been preached at me for so long I mistake them for core :P
#30 allarian Mar 21, 2008 2:04:33	Shame on you McPoyo, obivously the DM had the Half-Moron template applied to his base creature. :P
#31 mcpoyo Mar 21, 2008 7:11:26	I think I pick that template up during the full moon.