I'm making a human Fighter 2 / Warblade 4 for the Ravenloft campaign my friend will be starting tonight.
I have two different optimization paths in mind:
- Diamond Mind specialty (wielding bastard sword) with maxed-out Concentration, Skill Focus (Concentration), Unnerving Calm, and the associated Concentration-based DM maneuvers (Insightful Strike, etc.).
- Tiger Claw specialty (greataxe) with maxed-out Jump, Fleet of Foot (Realms feat, adds 10 to base speed and thus +4 to Jump), and the associated Jump-based TC maneuvers.
My problem with the latter build that in Ravenloft, I know we'll be fighting a lot of undead, which kind of makes all the crit-boosting stuff in Tiger Claw ineffective. But I really like the flavour of Tiger Claw as a discipline, and I like the idea of using crazy Jump checks to augment damage. Is it worth it to go Tiger Claw in a campaign with lots of undead?
Also, since this will be the first time I'll be playing a TOB character, any advice on playing a warblade is greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
weep
Use both. The warblade offers the ability to take two paths (upgrading manuevers as you go) to their level 5 ability, with a few left over. Alternatively you can spend (I think it's two) feats on taking martial study to get a 3rd path (I recommend iron heart with those other two) to get the last manuever there as well.
Oh yeah, sorry, I will definitely be dipping into disciplines. I'd already looked at Iron Heart for a stance and maneuver or two. Steel Strike and the stance that gives you +10 to speed and +2 dodge if you move a certain distance were a couple of standouts.
You need two feats for martial study? I thought you only needed one maneuver in the discipline as a prereq.
If you were referring to which two schools you wanted to specialize in, I'd suggest Diamond Mind over Tiger Claw (for the reason you gave- crits) and I will also suggest a focus on Stone Dragon. The maneuvers there allow you to overcome DR, which is a huge bonus against things that will have it. Iron Heart is also a good school to look at. Just don't try any cheese with Iron Heart Surge, your DM will hate you if you do.
Heh, on first glance IHS looks ridiculously broken to me, but now I'm reading on these boards that you can't use it to end charm, dominate, hold, or stun effects? So what exactly can you use it for, then?
What I like about Diamond Mind are the maneuvers that let you make Concentration checks on Will or Reflex saves. Very useful, especially the Will one for a fighter/warblade with poor will progressions.
Heh, on first glance IHS looks ridiculously broken to me, but now I'm reading on these boards that you can't use it to end charm, dominate, hold, or stun effects? So what exactly can you use it for, then?
Blindness, deafness, fatigue, exhaustion, confusion (if you get an "act normally" roll so you can use it)slow,being sickened, etc. Considering the spells that can cause these things, it's still very useful. Waves of fatigue, for instance, has no save. IHS fixes that.
Your Initiator level is 5 (Warblade levels + 1/2 sum of other class levels); keep that in mind when picking your known maneuvers and stances.
Warblades also recover ALL expended maneuvers as a free action if that recovery is immediately followed by a melee attack. Otherwise, spend a standard action doing something silly with your sword... "One per encounter" means nothing to you! :D
Beyond that, let me know. I've been itching to play a warblade for a while now!
Tentative feat list for the Diamond Mind path: Weapon Focus (bastard sword), Improved Toughness, Unnerving Calm, Skill Focus (Concentration), Blade Meditation (Diamond Mind) or Weapon Specialization (bastard sword), Power Attack.
With my key ability being Concentration, what do y'all think of donning heavy armor? I don't see the armor check penalties being a problem if I'm not jumping and tumbling around the place, and it would be nice to have a higher AC.
Oh yeah, sorry, I will definitely be dipping into disciplines. I'd already looked at Iron Heart for a stance and maneuver or two. Steel Strike and the stance that gives you +10 to speed and +2 dodge if you move a certain distance were a couple of standouts.
You need two feats for martial study? I thought you only needed one maneuver in the discipline as a prereq.
No, what I meant with martial study was this;
You need 4 manuevers in a dicipline to get their "ultimate" manuever, so that is a total of 5 manuevers from each dicipline (5 tigerclaw, 5 diamond mind), leaving you with (I think) 4 manuevers left (if you were pure warblade). Since you have a 2 level dip in fighter, you will only get 3 extra manuevers, so if you wanted the ultimate manuever from a third dicipline, you will need to take martial study twice. I highly suggest you take those fighter levels before you gain the second stance as a warblade - I believe this allows access to a higher level stance.
Infact, I'm going to go home and build a warblade/fighter now myself.
I also agree Diamond Mind/Stone Dragon is a good option. The only Diamond Mind saving throw maneuver you need is Moment of Perfect Mind for will. As a fighter/warblade, your fortitude save is already awesome. Your reflex took a hit from multiclassing but your intelligence modifier compensates a bit. Still, most reflex saves are for half damage. You don't have evasion so you're taking damage regardless. You have 12 + 2d10 + 3d12 + (6xCON) modifier hit points. You can take a fireball or two. Your will took a big hit from multiclassing, and you don't have help for it except through Moment of Perfect Mind. You will always want this maneuver readied, even at level 20, unless you take Diamond Defense at high level.
With Diamond Mind and Stone Dragon, you can afford not to have your strength so high. Diamond Mind gives you Concentration damage and Stone Dragon gives extra dice damage. This allows your Constitution to be your highest stat for the hit points. You can pump Intelligence since warblades like Intelligence. If you're going to wear heavy armor because fighter gave that to you, you don't need a high Dex, but the option is there for a nice Dex.
I also suggest you take Adaptive Style feat. You will quickly know more maneuvers than you can ready. This feat allows you to switch your maneuvers readied in combat. You can afford to take a maneuver or two you only expect to use for specific circumstances. If you find you don't need to worry about your will save for a combat, or are just willing to risk it, you can swap out Moment of Perfect Mind for another damage maneuver.
Another option is Diamond Mind/Iron Heart and go the two-handed weapon Power Attack route. Strength is more important but not too much since Power Attack is your damage. Iron Heart offers maneuvers that provide bonuses to hit. Use the bonus to compensate for the Power Attack penalty. For example, Steely Strike gives you +4 to hit. Use Power Attack for 4 when using it, thus you are still at the same total attack modifier as you started, but now you have +8 damage. You can still use Diamond Mind for your will save as well as Concentration Damage. You can take Combat Expertise to fight defensively when needed and use Concentration for damage because you aren't using Power Attack. Also, Diamond Mind offers Emerald Razor which makes your attack a touch attack. Though you aren't getting a bonus to hit, you have a lower AC to hit so you can afford to Power Attack a nice amount. Eventually take Lightning Recovery to reroll a missed attack with a +2 bonus, especially for when you took too much of a penalty for Combat Expertise/Concentration damage or Power Attack.
I usually do diamond mind and Iron heart because I can use a common weapon (bastard sword) for the both of them
That only matters if you use a feat or prestige class ability that specifies needing to use a discipline's primary weapon. Blade Meditation is an example, in your case taken twice for Diamond Mind and Iron Heart. (Personal roleplaying flavor text is also a valid reason.)
In the general case, you can use any weapon for any maneuver for any discipline, albeit you're not really using a weapon per se for Setting Sun's throwing maneuvers. You can wield a greatsword and use Diamond Mind and Iron Heart maneuvers without a problem.
1. Does the damage from Insightful Strike work against undead, i.e. creatures immune to critical hits and sneak attacks? My DM is arguing that since the fluff description is similar to the rogue targeting a vital area for extra sneak attack damage, it shouldn't affect undead.
2. With the Adaptive Style feat, do your maneuvers get re-readied AND recovered, or just re-readied? Also, can you take a full attack (full-round action) to trigger Adaptive Style, or do you have to spend a full-round action doing nothing?
3. When you get a negative level, do you lose maneuvers and/or stances known?
As far as I know, by RAW, the extra damage from the concentration based attacks work against undead just fine. I can see your DMs argument, but I don't buy it. It'd be a big nerf.
Yeah, it's not a RAW issue -- both he and I agree that RAW the damage should affect undead. It's a spirit issue, i.e. what makes the warblade able to do extra damage to creatures without vital organs with Insightful Strike? My argument is that if a ranger can take undead as his favored enemy, and do extra damage, then there is precedent for class-ability-based extra damage not necessarily being contingent on striking vital organs for extra damage.
This is somewhat disappointing, as I had come up with a nice build involving Diamond Mind and was looking forward to seeing it in action when we start Ravenloft. He may not nerf it in the end, but it's quite probable that he would nerf it, in which I case I'd drop Diamond Mind as a discipline and try to find something else (White Raven, maybe, or go all-out in Iron Heart).
I'd say you should look at Insightful Strike and stuff as the character training himself so hard that, through sheer force of will, he is able to change the way his blade cuts (or hammer smashes, or whatever) so that the damage it does is based solely on his ability to shape reality around him through his will. Diamond Mind is all about using one's willpower to shape reality, though not in such a way as a wizard or psion.
Alternatively, look at those attacks as focusing so hard on a single powerful attack that he is able to cleave through his opponents with more devastating effect than otherwise.
Either way, the damage from the attack isn't precision based or extra damage, it replaces the weapons characteristics (damage as well as crit). I'm sure you and your DM can come up with some satisfying and flavorful reason to allow the maneuvers as written.
It shouldn't be that hard for him to get used to it. His knee-jerk reaction will probably be that it's too powerful, but that's just because, like everyone else before ToB, he's used to casters being uber, not the fighters.
Probably. It's funny how lots of gamers (myself included at one time) are so conditioned to think of spellcasters coming first that anything that even approaches a spellcaster's versatility and power level is suddenly 'broken'. :D
And remember, it's the power boost to melee-ers that makes ToB awesometastic (though that is a good thing) it's that it finally gives them OPTIONS (and cool stuff besides "I hit it in the . . . LEG this time!).
I told him this as well. It's less about power boosts and more about doing interesting things from round to round instead of an endless series of five-foot steps and full attacks.
I actually still think fighters and barbarians are useful in D&D, at least at low to mid levels (our campaign is starting at 6th level). At 20th level, melee combatants are generally going to get smoked by their spellcasting counterparts, regardless of whether they're fighters, barbarians, warblades, or crusaders. But at 6th level, a single-class fighter is still extremely useful. I just don't happen to want to play one is all.
Warblades also recover ALL expended maneuvers as a free action if that recovery ...
I think you'll find it's a swift action. That means you can't recover your counters after using them - you have to wait a round.
My advice would be that you master both diamond and tiger claw since you can do both. The martial study feat can be taken 3 times and will allow you to learn 3 more maneuvers. Same goes for the martial stance feat, can be taken 3 times, and you can learn 3 different stances. Make use of those feats to expand the number of maneuvers known, since warblades know the least maneuvers compared to other martial adepts.
As far as stances and maneuvers go, I would recommend the nightmare blade maneuvers from diamond mind as well as action before thought, moment of perfect mind, and mind over body to use your high concentration instead of all 3 saving throws. You can take the steady concentration feat to take 10 on all concentration checks, which will pretty much guarantee that you will not fail a saving throw when using these counters. From iron heart, Iron heat surge is a MUST have. Learn it through a feat if you must. From tiger claw, stuff like swooping dragon strike is amazing for stunning, plus other jumping maneuvers. Time stands still as soon as you can get it, raging mongoose is also great, dazing strike from diamond mind. Additionally, don't take insightful strike and its greater variant - it's too weak compared to the nightmare blade series, take those instead.
For stances, I'd say pearl of black doubt is the ultimate defensive stance against all magical and physical (both melee and ranged) attacks that require an attack roll. Stance of alacrity allows 2 counters per round, amazing stance, and works wonder vs. casters if you must make more than one saving throw. In addition, you may opt to take iron heart focus, which is a counter that allows you to reroll a saving throw, or diamond defense, which adds your IL to any save you want. Hearing the air stance will give you blindsight out to 30 feet, it's invaluable. These 3 stances are a must.
If you want other stances and maneuvers, use feats to learn them, unless you are ok with taking 2 levels of swordsage, which will grant you a massive number of maneuvers and 2 stances to boot, not to mention the fact that you will be able to ready almost twice as many maneuvers than you otherwise could! This will mean you can ready a lot of offensive and defensive maneuvers, boosts and counters, and thus will be able to use stance of alacrity for example, to a great effect while still maintaining a huge amount of offensive maneuvers and boosts ready for use.
Also remember one thing - when taking the martial study and martial stance feats, it doesn't matter which disciplines you have access too and which ones you don't. The feats allow you to learn ANY maneuver or stance, regardless of whether your warblade has access to that discipline or not. For example, a warblade/swordsage does not have access to the devoted spirit discipline, but if your IL is high enough and you meet the prerequisites, you can still learn any stance and any maneuver from that discipline, so keep that in mind when trying to make your warblade better and stronger.
In addition, thicket of blades stance from devoted spirit is another pretty amazing stance that allows serious crowd control as well as other advantages when combined with feats such as improved trip, stand still and combat reflexes. You can improve the effectiveness of this further by using a reach weapon, so take your pick
Oh yeah, and if you compliment your warblade levels with a few swordsage levels, take the adaptive style feat, it's a must for a character who has levels in multiple martial adept classes if you ask me. The feat allows you to ready ALL maneuvers of ALL martial adept classes you have as a full round action, as well as choose different maneuvers to ready than the ones you had previously. Obviously, this is a huge boon, because you can change all your maneuvers as if you had practiced for 5 minutes as a full round action to suit the situation, and they will be readied automatically. I know the feat itself does not exactly say this, however, this *is* the effect of the feat as per ToB Q&A thread, as answered by the Sage. Just make sure your DM knows this so there's no misunderstanding.
Anyway, that's some advice from me, hope it helped.
Okay, I've decided to go with Diamond Mind (plus some Stone Dragon and Iron Heart), but I have three questions:
1. Does the damage from Insightful Strike work against undead, i.e. creatures immune to critical hits and sneak attacks? My DM is arguing that since the fluff description is similar to the rogue targeting a vital area for extra sneak attack damage, it shouldn't affect undead.
Yes. This is not a critical hit. The maneuver replaces the damage you normally do with a Concentration check. Flavor text is only flavor text.
2. With the Adaptive Style feat, do your maneuvers get re-readied AND recovered, or just re-readied?
Yes
Also, can you take a full attack (full-round action) to trigger Adaptive Style, or do you have to spend a full-round action doing nothing?
The latter.
3. When you get a negative level, do you lose maneuvers and/or stances known?
No. You get the normal -1 to hit. Should the negative level become a permanent loss then you lose a levelas normal.
I'm also playing a Warblade for the first time. My one quick question; is White Raven worth it? Forsome reason I find myself drawn towards Diamond Mind and White Raven. (I'll be playing a level 11 straight Warblade by the way)
Then it's worth it. All that matters is your personal preference because no discipline sucks. Your warblade would just be played differently than a warblade who didn't take it. Take White Raven Tactics. You'll be glad you did.
As far as I know, by RAW, the extra damage from the concentration based attacks work against undead just fine. I can see your DMs argument, but I don't buy it. It'd be a big nerf.
It's not extra damage. The entire damage is a Concentration check: d20+ Concentration. Everything else is ignored.
It's not extra damage. The entire damage is a Concentration check: d20+ Concentration. Everything else is ignored.
Either way, the damage from the attack isn't precision based or extra damage, it replaces the weapons characteristics (damage as well as crit).
Already corrected myself, thanks.
Sapphire Nightmare Blade
Stone Bones
Mountain Hammer
Insightful Strike (taken with Martial Study feat)
Moment of Perfect Mind
Iron Heart Surge
Punishing Stance
Pearl of Black Doubt
Feats: Weapon Focus (greataxe), Combat Expertise, Adaptive Style, Martial Study (Diamond Mind), Improved Toughness, Skill Focus (Concentration)
Since I have fighter levels, I'll be wearing full plate, which, combined with my magic items and a +1 Dex bonus, brings my AC to 21. One of my combat strategies is to use Combat Expertise while in the Pearl of Black Doubt stance. Even a -2 using CE brings my AC to 23, and if any attack misses thereafter, it will go up by 2 for each miss.
Punishing Stance will be used for offense, obviously, in combination with IS or Mountain Hammer.
I took Improved Toughness because I don't want to have to spend too much time quaffing potions during combat, and because Ravenloft by all accounts sounds like a wicked tough adventure with many difficult encounters. Moment of Perfect Mind is obviously there to make up for my crappy Will save and Adaptive Style to give me some flexibility mid-encounter.
Any thoughts, questions, or criticisms?
If you just know you will always want that maneuver, then you should take it as your regular maneuver known if it's from a discipline you already access instead of through the feat. Only if it's from a discipline you don't have access and you will not multiclass into the martial adept class that has it does it may be worth something. If you won't always want it, it becomes a waste of a feat.
Also, since you are a FIghter 2/Warblade 4, you qualify and should take Weapon Specialization. Thanks to warblade you won't be stuck with the great axe if a better weapon comes along. It won't help for the Concentraion damage, but it does help on all other attacks. Replace Martial Study for it.
I'm aware of the benefit of Weapon Specialization. I guess I'm just kind of bored by it.
I dunno, I'll think about it. Maybe I'll use Martial Study to take a maneuver from a non-class discipline. Thanks for the feedback.
weep
Another question: is it worth it to keep Adaptive Style as a feat if I don't take Martial Study? Without MS, I'll only know one more maneuver than I can ready.
Yes it is. If you plan on having something like fighter2/warblade18, you will know 12 maneuvers, but will only be ale to ready 6 maneuvers, so the feat will be invaluable.
If you take the martial study feat once or even twice, your number of maneuvers known will increase, making adaptive style more valuable.
Also, my advice would be that you take martial study as a warblade because I already know you will want a LOT of maneuvers, but sadly a warblade can know only 12 by the time he reaches lv 18, which isn't really a small number of maneuvers but it isn't a big one either. Warblades benefit more from this feat than any other martial adept, since they know the least maneuvers. Plus, warblades get bonus feats, so you won't be as feat starved as other martial adepts, and you already have 2 extra feats via your fighter levels so you can afford it.
Weapon spec is really a sub optimal feat tbh. There are tons of feats better than that
Plus 2 extra damage is not worth a feat, especially if you plan on using standard action strikes, its only an extra 2 damage. However, if you plan to take all the weapon feats or most of them or some of them (such as weapon supremacy and the respective feat chains), then weapon spec is a must since it's a prerequisite. However if you are not interested in those feats, don't take weapon spec - martial adepts can do TONS of damage when played properly, easily into the hundreds. A feat that adds 2 damage to that isn't worth it. Plus, insightful strike and the greater version do not benefit from weapon spec, as stated by the maneuver description.Yes it is. If you plan on having something like fighter2/warblade18, you will know 12 maneuvers, but will only be ale to ready 6 maneuvers, so the feat will be invaluable.
If you take the martial study feat once or even twice, your number of maneuvers known will increase, making adaptive style more valuable.
Fair enough, but I guess I'm also wondering if it's worth it to take Adaptive Style right now, at level 6, especially if I decide not to take Martial Study and I can ready 4 maneuvers out of the 5 I know. Maybe it's something I could take with my 9th-level feat?
Also, my advice would be that you take martial study as a warblade because I already know you will want a LOT of maneuvers, but sadly a warblade can know only 12 by the time he reaches lv 18, which isn't really a small number of maneuvers but it isn't a big one either. Warblades benefit more from this feat than any other martial adept, since they know the least maneuvers. Plus, warblades get bonus feats, so you won't be as feat starved as other martial adepts, and you already have 2 extra feats via your fighter levels so you can afford it.
Here's the thing: the campaign my DM is running (Ravenloft) is intended to take characters from 6th level to 10th level. That being said, I've DMed the same group of friends for 6 years now, and they've only just gotten to 9th level in my campaign.
So while I am certainly concerned about how this warblade will scale, his power at, say, level 18, is really not on my radar, since it's highly unlikely that we'll even get there.Ultimately, I'm a tad more concerned with my gaming experience in the here and now, and maybe a few levels thereafter (let's say levels 6-10). That's why I'm wondering if taking Adaptive Style is worth it right now. At higher levels I can certainly see the utility, though.
Weapon spec is really a sub optimal feat tbh. There are tons of feats better than that
Yeah, I agree about Weapon Specialization. Not only do I find it a bit boring, but the +2 on damage really doesn't seem that significant, even starting at 6th level, when I can do extra damage with Mountain Hammer (2d6) and Sapphire Nightmare Blade (1d6), and Insightful Strike damage is 1d20 + 16.
Finally, I want to thank everyone in this thread for their input. You've really helped me sort through these issues and gain a better idea of what kind of build I'm looking for.
Did you take Warblade as your first level, or fighter? Because taking Warblade at first is hands down a better choice, because you get more HP, and significantly better skills. Warblade 1, then 2 Fighter, then the rest of the Warblade is a much better option than leading with Fighter, and you still get the same maneuver distribution.
Yup, I took Warblade first. It was W1, F1, F2, W2, W3, W4, for the exact reasons you mentioned.
This way, I was also able to get a third-level stance.
Diamond mind isn't really worth taking IMO except for the will save sub counter. Apart from that they are out powered by tiger claw maneuvers such as leaping dragon strike and dancing mongoose.
Fair enough, but I guess I'm also wondering if it's worth it to take Adaptive Style right now, at level 6, especially if I decide not to take Martial Study and I can ready 4 maneuvers out of the 5 I know. Maybe it's something I could take with my 9th-level feat?
Yes that's a good idea, 9th level is a good time to take it since you will know more maneuvers but only be able to ready some of them.
Here's the thing: the campaign my DM is running (Ravenloft) is intended to take characters from 6th level to 10th level. That being said, I've DMed the same group of friends for 6 years now, and they've only just gotten to 9th level in my campaign. So while I am certainly concerned about how this warblade will scale, his power at, say, level 18, is really not on my radar, since it's highly unlikely that we'll even get there.
Ultimately, I'm a tad more concerned with my gaming experience in the here and now, and maybe a few levels thereafter (let's say levels 6-10). That's why I'm wondering if taking Adaptive Style is worth it right now. At higher levels I can certainly see the utility, though.
Ah yes, I see. In that case you need not be concerned, 9th level is a good to take the feat, and along with martial study you will have a decent amount of maneuvers and adaptive style will be worth it.
That said, how much adaptive style is worth also depends on your maneuver selection. If your character is based around hard hitting and uses mostly just strike maneuvers to deal high damage, then adaptive style may not be worth it since you will always have mostly the same maneuvers prepared. To get the most out of adaptive style, take a look at all the maneuvers you can get, and think about how your selection of maneuvers could potentially help you in most situation. If you have a wide range of different maneuvers suitable to a wide range of different situations, then both your character and this feat will really shine, because you can adapt to any threat you face.
Just one last thing here from my personal experience with my own low level warblade (currently warblade3/psychic warrior1). I took adaptive style at level 1 and I never regret it, and I even found that I used it a lot of time to adapt to situations. For example if I faced a single powerful enemy, I used the feat to ready wall of blades counter (single powerful enemies hit hard as opposed to several weaker ones so this maneuver is of huge value), emerald razor (touch attack paired with power attack, deals high damage, and touch ACs of big creatures are really low, allowing me to hit them easier), and lastly Sudden leap (this allows me to charge a single big powerful enemy, hit him for huge damage, and then jump to the back as a swift action, so that he cannot get a full attack against me). So as you can see, even with a 3rd level warblade, the feat really rocks. When I encounter several enemies I ready sudden leap (retreat as swift action so they don't swarm you), steel wind (attack 2 opponents with a single strike), and wall of blades (block incoming attacks to minimize damage received). Wall of blades is much better against powerful hard hitting target (huge creatures for example) since you can block all damage done by that attack, while several weaker ones will hit you since their damage is spread out among multiple attacks from multiple opponents, obviously.
So, if you ask me, I'd even take adaptive style at level 3, if your first 2 levels are fighter levels.
Yeah, I agree about Weapon Specialization. Not only do I find it a bit boring, but the +2 on damage really doesn't seem that significant, even starting at 6th level, when I can do extra damage with Mountain Hammer (2d6) and Sapphire Nightmare Blade (1d6), and Insightful Strike damage is 1d20 + 16.
Finally, I want to thank everyone in this thread for their input. You've really helped me sort through these issues and gain a better idea of what kind of build I'm looking for.
Yep, if you want a damage source, just stick with power attack, and your maneuvers. They will do a way better job than weapon spec.
Enjoy your warblade, they're great characters to play, and so damn fun with all their different maneuvers and stances :D
Skill Focus (Concentration), Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus (greataxe), Adaptive Style, Martial Study (Iron Heart)
Moment of Perfect Mind, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Steel Wind
Emerald Razor
Iron Heart Surge (through Martial Study), Insightful Strike
Punishing Stance, Pearl of Black Doubt
This way, I have two basic attack 'streams': extra damage or better chance of hitting. I can also go defensive if need be with Pearl, Combat Expertise, or fighting defensively. I also have counters in case I get hit with spells. And I can switch between maneuvers if necessary with Adaptive Style.
I decided to go with wearing full plate +1 because why not make use of the fighter's armor profs? Also, I'm not carrying a shield, so I need all the AC boosts I can get.
Question about Steel Wind: can I initiate it as part of a full attack? The initiation action is listed as 'standard action.' I guess I'm wondering if you can use a full attack to initiate a maneuver that requires a standard action to initiate.
No. You get one standard action per round. So you can full attack or initiate a strike. Not both. You can use a boost with a full attack (or a boost with a strike), but strikes are a one per round affair only.
Thanks!
Actually, some strikes and maneuvers are initiated during a ful-attack action, but most of them are higher level, and they'll specifically say it in the description.
Yes. Probably should have mentiond that myself :D. Another thing to remember is that some strikes are full round actions. The WR charge maneuvers are, for example. But, as Mercurious astutely pointed out, the maneuver description text will tell you what type of action each strike is. Be sure to read them all and you'll be fine.
Thanks a lot for the info. After one session, I feel marginally more comfortable running this warblade. I've been rolling garbage on my Insightful Strike damage (nothing above 4 on a d20!), but I figure the odds have to swing back in my favour eventually. :D
There are ways to control those odds my friend
One way is the steady concentration feat from races of stone. It lets you take 10 on ANY concentration check. And just imagine what you can do with this feat and diamond mind counters that allow you to use your concentration check instead of all 3 saves...never fail a save again! In addition, you may consider buying a third eye concentrate (magic item compendium) that increases your concentration check by +10. Needless to say, your IS damage will be pretty big, and you will probably never fail a save again if using the diamond mind counters...
Another way is to either take the wild talent feat or take 1 or 2 levels in any psionic class (psychic warrior for the 2 feats is amazing), so you can have a power point reserve. Having a power point reserve means that you can become psionically focused. Expending your psionic focus (free action, can be done even if it's not your turn) allows you take 15 on your next concentration check, allowing even better results with your counters and IS. You can only expend your psionic focus once, and regaining it is a full round action, and requires a DC 20 concentration check. To reduce this, take the psionic meditation feat, which allows you to become psionically focused as a move action - allowing you to use your psionic focus and a melee attacks every round, if you can recover your maneuvers (sudden recovery for example, or the ruby knight's ability).
Well I guess you probably could have guessed all this stuff yourself, but there are plenty of options to increase IS damage and control your concentration checks no problem.
Hope that helped, peace out
Using the feat, I'd plateau at 26 damage per strike, incrementing by at least one point per level increase as my ranks in Conc. increase. Now do I want to burn the feat (which I won't be able to take for another three levels) for the guaranteed return of 26 points of damage, or do I keep on truckin' with my d20, hoping to hit paydirt a few times with 30+ damage? Not as useful there, but it is more useful on saving throws, I will admit, particularly for Will as my Fort and Reflex are already pretty good without having to take the appropriate Concentration-substituting maneuvers.
I guess if I wanted Steady Concentration before 9th level, I'd have to retrain an existing feat. Hmmm...
Well it is indeed your choice. I guess you could get better results on your IS by rolling, but steady concentration does guarantee that you will pass all your saving throws, so it may be worth it
My options are:
- Take a level in warblade, which gives me one extra maneuver known and a bonus feat. I was thinking Blade Meditation to pump my Concentration up to +19 (including 1 rank from the levelling up), and then taking a maneuver like Stone Bones (ignore DR and deal extra 2d6 damage). My BAB would also go up by 1.
- Take a level in swordsage, benefiting from my higher initiator level (which should be 4) to take a bunch of maneuvers. I'm particularly intrigued by the one that gives you greater invisibility for 1 turn, and the maneuver that lets you teleport up to 50 feet as a standard action. Since I already have Adaptive Style, I can circumvent the swordsage restriction of only being able to recover one expended maneuver at a time: by taking a full-round action, I can recover all expended maneuvers (whether from warblade or swordsage) AND change my list of readied maneuvers at the same time. However, my BAB would not go up.
Here's a question, though:
If I take a level in Swordsage, I gain Weapon Focus with all the weapons of a single discipline. Would I still be able to use the warblade's martial aptitude ability to change my focus to another weapon with which I"m proficient through one hour's training? I ask because if I can do this, I'm going to retrain Weapon Focus (greataxe), which my character already has.
Anyway, taking Swordsage has definite possibilities. Six level 2 maneuvers, plus an extra stance.
Cloak of Deception and Shadow Jaunt (this was my default "run away" strategy for a long time). Counter Charge and Baffling Defense; the first can shut down a charger cold, and the next can boost your AC to high heaven. Claw at the Moon or Rabid Wolf Strike, then Sudden Leap for additional mobility options in combat (e.g. leap close to enemy, then full attack). Burning Brand is nice too (and just gets nicer... at least until you come across a fire-immune enemy).
Stancewise, Island of Blades is classic (although if you're in an undead Ravenloft setting, it'll matter less to your Rogue than normal). Flame's Blessing starts good and becomes awesome (assuming you keep up your Tumble ranks). Blood in the Water is great for crit-happy builds. Hunter's Sense can be a boon at times.
And if you continue to SS2, you can "immediately" pick up a level 3 stance. Leaping Dragon Stance and Wolverine Stance are personal favorites, but Assassin's Stance gets a lot of play on the boards (with good reason). Not to mention an extra level 3 maneuver. Fan the Flames gives you a decent missile attack, and Death Mark can be chaotically fun. Zephyr Dance can make a hit into a miss. And that's just Desert Wind...
No, what I meant with martial study was this;
You need 4 manuevers in a dicipline to get their "ultimate" manuever, so that is a total of 5 manuevers from each dicipline (5 tigerclaw, 5 diamond mind), leaving you with (I think) 4 manuevers left (if you were pure warblade). Since you have a 2 level dip in fighter, you will only get 3 extra manuevers, so if you wanted the ultimate manuever from a third dicipline, you will need to take martial study twice. I highly suggest you take those fighter levels before you gain the second stance as a warblade - I believe this allows access to a higher level stance.
Infact, I'm going to go home and build a warblade/fighter now myself.
Actually a Warblade can master three and almost four diciplines.
I'd like to point out to everyone in this thread that Stances count towards your maneuvers known , so if you had Punishing stance from the Iron Heart tree that counts as 1 Iron Heart maneuver. Thus giving them at level 20 a max equivalent of 17 Maneuvers known(13 actual maneuvers 4 stances).
Just in case it helps it mentions it on page 44 of the Tome of Battle under Prerequisite on the last scentence of the first paragraph.
Stances are considered maneuvers for the purpose of meeting a prerequisite to learn a new maneuver.
:D
If I take a level in Swordsage, I gain Weapon Focus with all the weapons of a single discipline. Would I still be able to use the warblade's martial aptitude ability to change my focus to another weapon with which I"m proficient through one hour's training? I ask because if I can do this, I'm going to retrain Weapon Focus (greataxe), which my character already has.
According to the text of the SS entry, you gain "the benefits of weapon focus" when fighting with the weapons of your chosen discipline. You don't actually gain the Weapon Focus feat for each of them, you just get the +1 to hit while you're using them...
Huh. Pearl of Black Doubt without Wall of Blades? Scratch that... A Warblade without Wall of Blades? That's pretty much my "must have" technique for all of my Warblades... Right up there with Baffling Defense for my Swordsages. As for the "ignore DR, +2d6 damage", that's Mountain Hammer, not Stone Bones. You could also pick it up as a Swordsage (it's only level 2).
Thing is, my warblade is equipped with full plate +1 (thanks to his fighter levels which give him the proficiency), so AC boosting is really not an issue. Normally, the AC is 21, and if I choose to get into Combat Expertise, that's at least 23, with the probability of additional cumulative +2 bonuses through Pearl of Black Doubt. So I'm really not worried about being hit enough to want to take Wall of Blades.
Cloak of Deception and Shadow Jaunt (this was my default "run away" strategy for a long time). Counter Charge and Baffling Defense; the first can shut down a charger cold, and the next can boost your AC to high heaven. Claw at the Moon or Rabid Wolf Strike, then Sudden Leap for additional mobility options in combat (e.g. leap close to enemy, then full attack). Burning Brand is nice too (and just gets nicer... at least until you come across a fire-immune enemy).
Yeah, Cloak and Jaunt really stood out to me. Jaunt keeps me safe OR lets me close the gap quickly in combat (and my warblade is rather slow due to his full plate, so this is more important than you'd think). Cloak is great if I need bonuses to hit and/or for moving around without provoking AoOs. I'm not bothering with Tiger Claw because my armor check penalty neuters my Jump and the plate reduces my speed to 20'. Burning Brand looks awesome and looks like it would play really well in confined spaces where enemies are hard to reach in five-foot steps.
Stancewise, Island of Blades is classic (although if you're in an undead Ravenloft setting, it'll matter less to your Rogue than normal). Flame's Blessing starts good and becomes awesome (assuming you keep up your Tumble ranks). Blood in the Water is great for crit-happy builds. Hunter's Sense can be a boon at times.
Island of Blades does look good. We have no rogue in the party, but still, giving flanking benefits to me and my allies has a lot of merit. Flame's Blessing is a definite contender but I only have one stance to pick so this will be a tough decision.
Burning Blade: Combined with Flashing Sun, this could deal lots of damage.
Burning Brand: Extra reach always useful. Also stacks well with Flashing Sun.
Fire Riposte: I like the idea of dealing extra damage if I'm hit.
Flashing Sun: Three attacks instead of two using full attack? Me likey.
Cloak of Deception: Who wouldn't want greater invisibility for a turn?
Shadow Jaunt: Useful either to flee or to get to an enemy quickly.
Mountain Hammer: Extra damage and ignoring DR/hardness, very nice.
Now, since I can only pick 6 maneuvers, which one do I drop?
Stance-wise, I'm leaning towards Island of Blades, although Flame's Blessing and Hunter's Sense are also intriguing. Suggestions?
And I'd ditch burning blade. It's best if you're TWFing. My aforementioned underdark character was also a TWFer, and with Burning Blade scaling with no cap, it really messed up my opponents.
Also, having power attack and combat expertise is a no no. You can't ever use both at once 'cause you won't be able to hit anything, and defense for you (combat expertise) is less important than offense. You're wearing heavy armor, wielding a TH weapon, and have a d12 HD. You don't need the extra (up to) 5 points of AC. You'd rather be hitting things to death.
EDIT: As for stances, you should talk to your DM about removing the "lvl 1 stances only at 1st level" restriction. Otherwise, I'd go with Step of the Wind from Desert Wind. You might not encounter difficult terrain much, but at this point it's about versatility. You've got a stance to help you hit, help your AC, and now you should have one to help you get to your opponents, which is especially important with your reduced movement from heavy armor. Other than that, Hunter's Sense is also valuable because it allows you to pinpoint or detect enemies you otherwise could not. Also, you already have Pearl of Black doubt, along with heavy armor, so Combat Expertise is really redundant imo. See if the DM will let you retrain it using the PHB2 rules.
Shadow Jaunt is what I'd take.
And I'd ditch burning blade. It's best if you're TWFing. My aforementioned underdark character was also a TWFer, and with Burning Blade scaling with no cap, it really messed up my opponents.
I still find it useful without TWF, particularly when full attacking with Flashing Sun.
Also, having power attack and combat expertise is a no no. You can't ever use both at once 'cause you won't be able to hit anything, and defense for you (combat expertise) is less important than offense. You're wearing heavy armor, wielding a TH weapon, and have a d12 HD. You don't need the extra (up to) 5 points of AC. You'd rather be hitting things to death.
Actually, I've found Combat Expertise quite useful so far. I was going for some flexibility when making this warblade, so I could adapt to situations where it's necessary to think of defense first. I find that Combat Expertise stacks well with Pearl of Black Doubt. Take a -2 to boost AC to 23, and if the first attack misses, I'm nigh unhittable for the rest of the round unless the enemy rolls really well.
EDIT: As for stances, you should talk to your DM about removing the "lvl 1 stances only at 1st level" restriction.
Why? It doesn't affect game play very much, and it seems fairly reasonable, given that there are no level-2 stances and the power gap between level-1 and level-3 stances is substantial.
Otherwise, I'd go with Step of the Wind from Desert Wind. You might not encounter difficult terrain much, but at this point it's about versatility. You've got a stance to help you hit, help your AC, and now you should have one to help you get to your opponents, which is especially important with your reduced movement from heavy armor. Other than that, Hunter's Sense is also valuable because it allows you to pinpoint or detect enemies you otherwise could not.
Well, I wound up going with Island of Blades, but I'll think about Hunter's Sense down the line. Versatility is important, I agree.