Long story short after a hour we finally get past it. The problem is 1 player is on the computer, 1 player is just sitting there waiting to be told what to do, the other is working ona computer and the last is getting pissed because we are close to leveling and wants combat to begin. He wonders off and I am the one tryign to figure this skill challenge out
After it was done people were bitching how bad it was and dragged out. I thougth "your kidding, most of you just sat there waiting for it to be over while I was trying to figure it out"
The combat guy gets annoyed when people chatter in combat and when people wonder off, but outside of combat he does the same thing.
I guess i am trying to figure how to tell them "hey if you all really want to get past this help out"
1+3) your pick: D&D or computer. i'm not here to watch you play WoW, you can do that on your time instead of mine.
ok, you should probably use more tact, but our games have a no computer rule. if your character is on your pc, print it out beforehand. same with any dungeon/dragon mag articles you need for the session.
you're all there to play D&D and it's kinda disrespectful to just drop the group to do something else. regretfully this guy is sometimes in our group and we can't really "kick him" out... he's the owner of the FLGS we play at :P . hopefully it sunk in last wednesday during our next campaign's character creation session that we expect him to sit down and play instead of going on the store's computer and playing on some forums or whatever.
for guy no.3, tell him to leave his work at work or stay at home and come in late. i've done that more then once, coming in an hour or more late for the session (worst case was popping up right at the end to get a recap of the session). it's a pain but at least i'm not wasting everyone's time. he should call in beforehand to let people know he's going to be late.
2)this guy might need a bit more poking and prodding. is he new? shy? oftentimes the quiet guy is also the new guy. or he's just a passive player and more here to hang out then anything else.
4) tell this guy to calm down a bit, take a chill pill or other such 80's catch phrases. have him remember that unless i'm mistaken, skill challenges give XP.
really, get these guys together and whip them into shape. the best way to tell them "hey if you all really want to get past this help out" is to tell them "hey if you all really want to get past this help out"
But since you say skill challenges give you a chance to role-play, could you explain that, or maybe even give an example from your game?
As a DM since 1980 I'm really having a hard time seeing skill challenges except in the light of turning role-play into roll-play, so I'd really love a different perspective of it.
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
But the short answer is likely find a real group of rolegamers.
As a player I would feel it as a total slap in my face. You probably participate in the situations that they enjoy, so the same respect should be shown.
To be honest, if this was me and it was an option, I would find another game...
@LionLemur: Some great roleplaying situations in my campaign have been created during skill challenges. My players don't just tell me what skill they wish to use and roll the dice. They describe in vivid detail how they use athletics to scale the wall and keep track of the BBEG they are shadowing or use Dungeoneering to create a viable battlestrategy to help the city that is undersiege bolster the walls with added support.
I have seen the Bard seek out certain artisans and use either bluff/diplomacy to convince them in the construct of the city's defense wth dialogue and streetwise.
A skill challenge is not just a nature/stealth - whatever check... at least not in the games I play in.
I probably won't be much help with your quandry (other than telling the guy to get the heck away from the computer).
But since you say skill challenges give you a chance to role-play, could you explain that, or maybe even give an example from your game?
As a DM since 1980 I'm really having a hard time seeing skill challenges except in the light of turning role-play into roll-play, so I'd really love a different perspective of it.
as a DM I ran some great skill challenges.
A simple one involed getting past a guard who didn't believe the players had the correct paperwork to enter the city.
The players would talk to the guard. Reexplaining why they had the correct papers. They did this in great detail and at the end they rolled a diplomacy check.
One player's character in game got impatient about trying to "talk" there way in and started yelling at the guard to let them in. He rolled a intimidate check.
A skill challenge gives some roles to a roleplaying encounter.
Skills themselves were introduce in 3rd and polished up in 4th
Long story short after a hour we finally get past it. The problem is 1 player is on the computer, 1 player is just sitting there waiting to be told what to do, the other is working ona computer and the last is getting pissed because we are close to leveling and wants combat to begin. He wonders off and I am the one tryign to figure this skill challenge out
Alright, first I have to ask a question: why is the guy who wants combat to begin so concerned about leveling? Do you mean that your DM doesn't give out XP for skill challenges? The DMG says that the DM should reward XP for skill challenges (and gives direction on how to figure out XP rewards) which should keep the guy who is looking to level happy. Although, it is hard to tell by the way you stated it. Perhaps he is just full of bloodlust.
I agree with having "no computer at the table" rules. They are a distraction and show disrespect toward everyone at the table. If you don't have such a rule, I'd recommend putting one in place. While your at it, make a rule that all players should set their cell phones to vibrate for the game session and should not answer them unless it's an emergency.
Finally, I'd recommend taking a good, hard look at the group and decide whether or not they are the type of group you want to play with. One player sounds like the archetype for a power-gamer, and you seem to enjoy having some roleplaying scenarios. Two of he players (the ones on the computers) obviously do not take the game seriously, and you seem to be the type of player who comes to the table without distractions and ready to play. The final player doesn't sound too bad, maybe just a little shy. It seems like you might not fit in with this group. That's fine. It doesn't mean that you have the wrong ideas, and it doesn't mean the other players are bad people. It just means that you don't fit together. Sometimes that can be a good thing; balance between different personalities can add some excitement to the game. But if playing with these players is getting in the way of you having fun, perhaps it is best to find another group to play with.
I guess i am trying to figure how to tell them "hey if you all really want to get past this help out"
Just say it.
Not saying a DM has to "like" skill challenges, but he seems to have abandoned any attempt at moving the game forward by letting everyone just wander off.
EDIT: It's a self-fulfilling prophecy situation. DM thinks he hates it, so puts zero effort in learning or improving it, and is validated when he finds he hates how it went.
It's much like excessive random encounters. Neither add to the story element.
It's also not helpful if the DM sets the tone by saying, "I hate skill challenges. Here is a skill challenge. Somebody should do something I guess."
Not saying a DM has to "like" skill challenges, but he seems to have abandoned any attempt at moving the game forward by letting everyone just wander off.
EDIT: It's a self-fulfilling prophecy situation. DM thinks he hates it, so puts zero effort in learning or improving it, and is validated when he finds he hates how it went.
I'll agree with this. The DM should not set up the scene so that it is obviously unenjoyable. The flip-side to this, though, is that he probably hates skill challenges because of the way the players handel it. Yes, the DM shouldn't let the players affect the way he runs the game. But if you point out to the players that it will make it easier for the DM to run a fun game if they put a little effort in, maybe they'll see the error of their ways.
@5m4llP0X: Skill challenges (which is an encounter consisting entirely/mostly of skill checks) are a feature in 4th edition D&D. You sound like you're a 3E player (seeing as there is no "sense motive" skill in 4E as it has been replaced with "insight"). While it does sound boring, it is a way to run a non-combat encounter that can be very fun if the DM runs them the right way. 4E also did a good job of consolidating the skills, which helps make it so the characters that are highly combat based can make good use of skill checks, too. It's easier for a character to be better at more skill checks when there are half the amount of skills that still cover the same amount of tasks.
It's also not helpful if the DM sets the tone by saying, "I hate skill challenges. Here is a skill challenge. Somebody should do something I guess."
Not saying a DM has to "like" skill challenges, but he seems to have abandoned any attempt at moving the game forward by letting everyone just wander off.
EDIT: It's a self-fulfilling prophecy situation. DM thinks he hates it, so puts zero effort in learning or improving it, and is validated when he finds he hates how it went.
I guess that is the major problem is that he hates skill challenges.
My last game I had to skill challenges. One was a social one, and the other was to close a magical portal.
I can't see what I did differnt, but the players knew what to do, figured out it was a skill challenge without me saying it, roleplayed as they rolled skill challenges and seem to enjoy it.
I think I may ask the DM next time in the scales of war a skill challenge comes up if I can run it
It's also not helpful if the DM sets the tone by saying, "I hate skill challenges. Here is a skill challenge. Somebody should do something I guess."
Not saying a DM has to "like" skill challenges, but he seems to have abandoned any attempt at moving the game forward by letting everyone just wander off.
EDIT: It's a self-fulfilling prophecy situation. DM thinks he hates it, so puts zero effort in learning or improving it, and is validated when he finds he hates how it went.
I'll agree with this. The DM should not set up the scene so that it is obviously unenjoyable. The flip-side to this, though, is that he probably hates skill challenges because of the way the players handel it. Yes, the DM shouldn't let the players affect the way he runs the game. But if you point out to the players that it will make it easier for the DM to run a fun game if they put a little effort in, maybe they'll see the error of their ways.
@5m4llP0X: Skill challenges (which is an encounter consisting entirely/mostly of skill checks) are a feature in 4th edition D&D. You sound like you're a 3E player (seeing as there is no "sense motive" skill in 4E as it has been replaced with "insight"). While it does sound boring, it is a way to run a non-combat encounter that can be very fun if the DM runs them the right way. 4E also did a good job of consolidating the skills, which helps make it so the characters that are highly combat based can make good use of skill checks, too. It's easier for a character to be better at more skill checks when there are half the amount of skills that still cover the same amount of tasks.
You can accomplish the same thing by just acting it and rewarding people for inventive ways to figure things out. If it's info I'm going to be revealing in the plot then I don't want to hose the party because of one bad die roll.
You can accomplish the same thing by just acting it and rewarding people for inventive ways to figure things out. If it's info I'm going to be revealing in the plot then I don't want to hose the party because of one bad die roll.
Skill challenges aren't just one die roll. It's multiple rolls over several rounds, minutes, hours, days, even weeks and months depending on the scale of the challenge. Sometimes bad crap happens and your players just have to deal with the consequences.
You can accomplish the same thing by just acting it and rewarding people for inventive ways to figure things out. If it's info I'm going to be revealing in the plot then I don't want to hose the party because of one bad die roll.
Skill challenges aren't just one die roll. It's multiple rolls over several rounds, minutes, hours, days, even weeks and months depending on the scale of the challenge. Sometimes bad crap happens and your players just have to deal with the consequences.
Also, a single failed roll during a skill challenge does not automatically result in failure of the entire skill challenge. You have to succeed X number of successes before three failures, where X can vary with the complexity and difficulty of the skill challenge.
And while, yes, you can achieve the same roleplaying experience without skill challenges, they do help. Skill challenges are a recommended frame for structuring a role play encounter with appropriate awards in the same way that XP budgets and encounter levels serve as a recommended framework for structuring combat encounters with appropriate awards. You don't really need either and you can tailor them to fit your design needs, but they are useful tools regardless.
There we stood, half a mile underground, at the threshold to the tomb/throneroom of M'Darr, the king of undeath. A giant demon stood guard denying us passage, noting that such mortals were not worthy to stand in the presence of M'Darr. The brave warrior Rai stepped forward.
"You insolent fool!" she shouted at the demon, "How is it possible that you do not know who we are? These are Clovis the Sly, Wasquey the Mighty, Dagon the Dread and I am Rai the Terrible. Clearly your time standing stupidly in this underground passage for eons has left you hopelessly oblivious to the real world or you would already be on your face before us begging for us to kill you for the inconvenience you've caused us in delaying our meeting with M'Darr. Though because I don't want to waste any more time on filth like you I will ask you just once to stand aside so I don't have to force-feed your limbs to you,"
[Roll natural 3 for Intimidate]
SONOFA-
"This might go quicker if you'd pay attention instead of Facebooking,"
...C'mon now, those Farmville crops aint gonna harvest themselves.
Roleplaying a skill challenge:
There we stood, half a mile underground, at the threshold to the tomb/throneroom of M'Darr, the king of undeath. A giant demon stood guard denying us passage, noting that such mortals were not worthy to stand in the presence of M'Darr. The brave warrior Rai stepped forward.
"You insolent fool!" she shouted at the demon, "How is it possible that you do not know who we are? These are Clovis the Sly, Wasquey the Mighty, Dagon the Dread and I am Rai the Terrible. Clearly your time standing stupidly in this underground passage for eons has left you hopelessly oblivious to the real world or you would already be on your face before us begging for us to kill you for the inconvenience you've caused us in delaying our meeting with M'Darr. Though because I don't want to waste any more time on filth like you I will ask you just once to stand aside so I don't have to force-feed your limbs to you,"
[Roll natural 3 for Intimidate]
SONOFA-
Was just thinking of the same thing. If players roleplay in a skill challenge so detailed and intricate, DMs should give them a success instead of rolling right? In that case, provided every player does the same, the whole skill challenge is nothing but usual roleplaying with no dice rolls, unless you DMs don't mind players rolling a natural 1 after giving an Oscar worthy performance.Â
Seems skill challenges are for people who say a few sentences to describe and let the dice decide, according to the rules. The lowered DC ratings also points this out.
Or does the roll acts like an auto AI for npcs such as the demon guard against Rai and the DM roleplays the demon based on dice result. In this case, the demon gives a middle finger regardless of what Rai says.Â
Roleplaying a skill challenge:
There we stood, half a mile underground, at the threshold to the tomb/throneroom of M'Darr, the king of undeath. A giant demon stood guard denying us passage, noting that such mortals were not worthy to stand in the presence of M'Darr. The brave warrior Rai stepped forward.
"You insolent fool!" she shouted at the demon, "How is it possible that you do not know who we are? These are Clovis the Sly, Wasquey the Mighty, Dagon the Dread and I am Rai the Terrible. Clearly your time standing stupidly in this underground passage for eons has left you hopelessly oblivious to the real world or you would already be on your face before us begging for us to kill you for the inconvenience you've caused us in delaying our meeting with M'Darr. Though because I don't want to waste any more time on filth like you I will ask you just once to stand aside so I don't have to force-feed your limbs to you,"
[Roll natural 3 for Intimidate]
SONOFA-
A faliure doesn't get worst the lower you role. Just becasue you rolled a three doesn't mean your character failed miserably. Just means you fail.
If someoen rolesplay that good(and that will be the day) I would atleast give a +2 bonus to the role
Was just thinking of the same thing. If players roleplay in a skill challenge so detailed and intricate, DMs should give them a success instead of rolling right? In that case, provided every player does the same, the whole skill challenge is nothing but usual roleplaying with no dice rolls, unless you DMs don't mind players rolling a natural 1 after giving an Oscar worthy performance.Â
Seems skill challenges are for people who say a few sentences to describe and let the dice decide, according to the rules. The lowered DC ratings also points this out.
Or does the roll acts like an auto AI for npcs such as the demon guard against Rai and the DM roleplays the demon based on dice result. In this case, the demon gives a middle finger regardless of what Rai says.Â
Good grief, here's my solution
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
But the short answer is likely find a real group of rolegamers.
Bingo
As a DM I reward xp for skill challenges also, so YOU Â (as in you only) would have got the XP since no one else participated and were actually detrimental to the game. Mr. "Let me know when the fighting starts" could possibly have gotten hits level just by supporting your character......
PS - "Encounter" in regards to XP gain doesn't have to mean combat since 3rd edition. Â Time for your DM to re-think....Â
Good grief, here's my solution
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
But the short answer is likely find a real group of rolegamers.
Bingo
As a DM I reward xp for skill challenges also, so YOU Â (as in you only) would have got the XP since no one else participated and were actually detrimental to the game. Mr. "Let me know when the fighting starts" could possibly have gotten hits level just by supporting your character......
PS - "Encounter" in regards to XP gain doesn't have to mean combat since 3rd edition. Â Time for your DM to re-think....Â
your suppose to reward experince for skill challengs according to the bokol You can do what you want, just saying according to the rules skill challenge reward experince
As for whether or not SC's turn roleplay scenes into rollplay scense, it really depends on the DM. First off, I would always grant a bonus for good roleplay (as presumably would a DM who chooses not to use SC's). Secondly, the natural 3 in the example provided, could very well still succeed according to the official guidelines. Heck, the level 8 Sorc in our group had a +19 Intimidate, which counts as an auto-success on a hard DC check in a level 8 SC.
But getting to the real issue, I assume the problem a lot of DMs have is that once their players know they are in a SC, the players just say "Roll History . . . 19?". To counter this, I try to hold my cards close to the vest. I don't lay it out in mechanical terms, just as I don't in combats either.
Two Examples:
1) "Okay, this is a Skill Challenge to try to convince the priest to let you see the tome. Its complexity 1, requiring 4 successes before 3 failures. Primary skills are Diplomacy, Bluff, and Religion. Secondary skills are History, Insight, and Intimidate. What do you do?"
2) "Thorik looks at you through squinted eyes, one eyebrow raised. 'The Tome of Thermoclatese is not exactly message post material friends. How do I know you can be trusted? After all, the information in the tome is quite sensitive."
Both examples are perfectly fine per RAW. I've had DMs who used both examples. Example #2 though will lead to far more roleplaying than example #1. The way I look at it, at the start of the combat I don't tell the party what the monsters' defenses, attack bonuses, speed, skill modifiers, etc. are, so I really shouldn't in a SC either. Additionally, if a player comes up with a clever use of a skill that isn't listed, as long as it makes sense, I'll let him use it, but he has to tell me how he is going to use it. A "Hey, I've got a +13 in Nature, can I roll Nature?" won't cut it.
Roleplaying a skill challenge:
There we stood, half a mile underground, at the threshold to the tomb/throneroom of M'Darr, the king of undeath. A giant demon stood guard denying us passage, noting that such mortals were not worthy to stand in the presence of M'Darr. The brave warrior Rai stepped forward.
"You insolent fool!" she shouted at the demon, "How is it possible that you do not know who we are? These are Clovis the Sly, Wasquey the Mighty, Dagon the Dread and I am Rai the Terrible. Clearly your time standing stupidly in this underground passage for eons has left you hopelessly oblivious to the real world or you would already be on your face before us begging for us to kill you for the inconvenience you've caused us in delaying our meeting with M'Darr. Though because I don't want to waste any more time on filth like you I will ask you just once to stand aside so I don't have to force-feed your limbs to you,"
[Roll natural 3 for Intimidate]
SONOFA-
DM:Â Eww a three. what the total with your bonus to intimidate?
Rai: Uhm, I dump stated charisma, am not trained.. so we're 28th level.. +13 I got a 16.
DM: Yeah, that's not gonna cut it. The Demon laughs at your words.
Lets not forget that the character in question may not be as talented in intimdate or other skills as the player.
We as players and gamemasters need to understand skill challenges are here to reward good thinking as to how a skill could be used to gain a success and that we do indeed have limits built into our characters.
Or can I stand up and do martial arts demostrations to auto crit in combat?
1. roll the attack/skill
2. describe action based on quality of roll
Flanking an enemy, rolls a natural 9.
"I take a step forward and throw a testing swing with my hammer against the goblin,"
Not likely to hit, but might.
DM: The hammer clanks against the goblin's light shield, the blow is deflected.
or
DM: The goblin's split attention works to your advantage, the hammer takes the goblin in the jaw. Roll damage.
The most fun ones are natual 1s and 20s because you instantly know the result and can go banana with it.
Roleplaying a skill challenge:
There we stood, half a mile underground, at the threshold to the tomb/throneroom of M'Darr, the king of undeath. A giant demon stood guard denying us passage, noting that such mortals were not worthy to stand in the presence of M'Darr. The brave warrior Rai stepped forward.
"You insolent fool!" she shouted at the demon, "How is it possible that you do not know who we are? These are Clovis the Sly, Wasquey the Mighty, Dagon the Dread and I am Rai the Terrible. Clearly your time standing stupidly in this underground passage for eons has left you hopelessly oblivious to the real world or you would already be on your face before us begging for us to kill you for the inconvenience you've caused us in delaying our meeting with M'Darr. Though because I don't want to waste any more time on filth like you I will ask you just once to stand aside so I don't have to force-feed your limbs to you,"
[Roll natural 3 for Intimidate]
SONOFA-
DM:Â Eww a three. what the total with your bonus to intimidate?
Rai: Uhm, I dump stated charisma, am not trained.. so we're 28th level.. +13 I got a 16.
DM: Yeah, that's not gonna cut it. The Demon laughs at your words.
Lets not forget that the character in question may not be as talented in intimdate or other skills as the player.
We as players and gamemasters need to understand skill challenges are here to reward good thinking as to how a skill could be used to gain a success and that we do indeed have limits built into our characters.
Or can I stand up and do martial arts demostrations to auto crit in combat?
as a DM, i tend to have the players tell me VERY BRIEFLY about what they're doing, then roll, then describe it. The players understand this, and dont blame the rolling player for "coming up with bad dialogue" due to the dice result.
Example:
Player: I'm going to try and intimidate the demon by telling him how famous and tough we are.
DM: roll it.
*rolls a 3*
DM: that's a failure, what do you say?
Player: Alright you big scary pile of scales and teeth! HAven't you heard of us before? we've battled through dozens of your lackeys to get down here....although we might have snuck past or fled from some, and, umm...well, i think we killed this other demon too that looked a little like you, but a bit smaller....anyways, HIS name was Hraklith! and we killed HIM no problem!
DM (as demon): you slew my SON! DIE INFIDELS! (in the case of final failure)
-or-
DM (as demon): ahh! Hraklith is dead....i've been meaning to dispose of him for some time, now it looks like you pitiful mortals are the only ones i have to dispose of now...a trifling task. Now, anything else to say? maybe some begging for your lives? (in the case of a first or second failure)
*end example*
the players like the continuity of their dialogue matching the result, and seem to enjoy the challenge of thinking up embarrasingly bad things to say or do in the challenges (and the corresponding half-hearted apologies to the party later on).
As stated above, the only drawback to this is that it requires a little bit of backwards roleplaying (make the check, THEN say the words or do the action), and that it requires the players to behave reasonably with regards to PCs saying certain things....even the dragonborn fighter with the 16 charisma who is trained in intimidate can fail to say something scary every once in a while. It is important that the other players take failed checks as slip-ups, and not intentional word-blunders.
to the OP, you may consider asking your DM to implement something similar to this with your skill challenges, to engage players more. Works with action skill challenges as well - success: "with a cry of exertion, the stone panel finally wrenches free with a pop" or failure: "well, i place a crowbar into the crack on the stone panel, but it only manages to grind some of the stone to powder without grabbing a good hold" - DM: "and now it seems a bit tougher to grab a firm hold with the edges all crumbled away"
simply ask your DM to follow this guideline:
1)Player describes what he's going to do (player may need help figuring out if he can be good at anything here)
2) player rolls an appropriate check (DM can set DC based on level, skill, and the action described)
3) DM tells player pass or fail (or maybe amazing success or horrible failure)
4) player describes action or dialogue, using the success/failure guideline the DM said.
5) DM adds any extra info....narration on what is happening, response dialogue from the NPC, etc.
it SHOULD involve the DM a bit more (but first he's got to put some effort into his skill challenges...bad challenges and bad attitudes will still ruin this), and allow the players to establish or develop their characters a bit more.
Skills themselves were introduce in 3rd and polished up in 4th
Just a historical note. AD&D had "non-weapon proficiencies". 3.x's skills were a polished version of NWPs. I don't know what the original D&D used, but I suspect it had something filling the same role.
Roleplaying a skill challenge:
There we stood, half a mile underground, at the threshold to the tomb/throneroom of M'Darr, the king of undeath. A giant demon stood guard denying us passage, noting that such mortals were not worthy to stand in the presence of M'Darr. The brave warrior Rai stepped forward.
"You insolent fool!" she shouted at the demon, "How is it possible that you do not know who we are? These are Clovis the Sly, Wasquey the Mighty, Dagon the Dread and I am Rai the Terrible. Clearly your time standing stupidly in this underground passage for eons has left you hopelessly oblivious to the real world or you would already be on your face before us begging for us to kill you for the inconvenience you've caused us in delaying our meeting with M'Darr. Though because I don't want to waste any more time on filth like you I will ask you just once to stand aside so I don't have to force-feed your limbs to you,"
[Roll natural 3 for Intimidate]
SONOFA-
as a DM, i tend to have the players tell me VERY BRIEFLY about what they're doing, then roll, then describe it. The players understand this, and dont blame the rolling player for "coming up with bad dialogue" due to the dice result.
I like to take almost the opposite approach. When I DM, I 'reward' players roleplaying by letting them make social skill checks. You want to make a Diplomacy roll, you have to tell me what you say first. On the result of a failure I just twist whatever they say in to an interpretation that doesn't make them any better off than before the story (although only likely to make you worse off with Intimidate or a getting caught making a Bluff). In the above example, it's not hard to imagine that the target of the intimidate was just plain not impressed by what the squishy little human said. Something like:
"Puny mortal!" Cries out the demon in a furious rage. "You would dare to speak in such a manner to mighty Azthogogtornok? It is you who knows not what you face, for I am a scion of M'Darr and death follows in my wake!"
Remember that just because a magical otherworldly entity decides to call your bluff doesn't mean that you're actually bluffing. In the off-chance that they say something irrefutable or unarguable I would give the PCs an auto-success, but it hasn't come up yet (and keep in mind that some creatures are stupid enough to debate the obviously true or benign anyways).
Skills themselves were introduce in 3rd and polished up in 4th
Just a historical note. AD&D had "non-weapon proficiencies". 3.x's skills were a polished version of NWPs. I don't know what the original D&D used, but I suspect it had something filling the same role.
The skill system in 3rd edition (and a lot of stuff in 3rd edition besides the skill system, too) seems to me to mostly be inspired by Alternity, the last system (to my knowledge) that TSR published before they went belly up (yea yea, I know- semantics
).One of the Characters decided to use diplomacy and failed it miserably. I paused the Skill challenge and put them into a combat with three thieves who were busily trying to break into a shop instead of counting it as a failure. Then the player turned around and pulled off a bluff roll that succeeded by almost 10. so I let her talk her way out of the fight,getting them to back down,before setting them back on track with the skill challenge.
In this way,you can still let the players accomplish what they need to accomplish in order for the story to proceed,but let their successes and their methods dictate how well or how poorly they accomplish it.
In my experience, skill challenges as presented by the DMG are really stupid. I'm still experimenting on ways to do them that actually work. Some successes & some failures.
They have been errata'd, which I think only adds weight to your point. I myself thought that skill challenges were a good concept, poorly executed when 4th first came out.
The problem is that skill challenges feel forced upon the players and the DM. Like "this is how you must roleplay". It seems contradictory with they "Yes, and..." style of DMing, too. I will use skill challenges when they do a good job of conveying what needs to happen: a series is successful skill checks results in a positive event for the party, and neither combat rules nor basic skill checks nor social roleplay will handle it very well.
Skill challenges are a fourth method of solving things, and very valuable, but I don't like the idea that they should supplant roleplay or situations when normal skill checks should be used instead.
Is this a problem with younger players ? I play in a group with adults, most of whom have jobs, spouses and kids and a filled social calendar as a result. So when we do get together, computers and cell phones are turned off, and if ever someone were to act like a jerk, they probably would not be invited back. The way we as a group feel, is that the game playing time available to us is limited, and if someone wants to be a jerk, they can do so on their own time.
Maybe we are all just rude and blunt people who do not believe politically correct behavior is going to cure whatever is wrong with "that guy".