Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 darkwanderer7 Mar 12, 2009 9:15:07	My party just got totally butt F**cked last night that resulted in a total party wipe. Long story short we all got resurrected and have a chance to stock up on equipment but we have to fight this creature again and I need some advice on strategy. Here is what we are: Lvl 16 Longtooth shifter fighter/pit fighter Lvl 16 Elf *Laser* cleric/radiant servant lvl 16 Elf Wizard/ Divine Oracle Lvl 16 Dwarven hellock (Hexhammer) Lvl 16 Half Elf feylock Here is what we fought: Lvl 19 Elder Purple Dragon Here is what happend. It got initiative and phased in from the wall to land next to us. Hit us all with frightful precence which left us all stunned. Hit us with breath weapon which got a Nat 20 and did 28 dmg plus dazed us and gave us ongoing 10 dmg. Hit us with Nightmare prescence which dominated us and we took 20 dmg if we couldn't make our attack. At the end of each of our rounds it got a free phasing attack which would phase us through the ground into the chamber below. The first round was a right off as we were stunned and a couple people managed to get saves against the dominate effect and I the fighter got phased through the ground to the chamber below. We all took 30 damage from the daze and dominate effects since we couldn't attack anyone since we were dazed. So end of Round 1 we all had taken 58 damage and nobody could do anything. Dragon re-dominates everyone who saved against it before (we then realized that we should be saving against daze instead of dominate) and proceeds to start beating up the cleric. Round 2 for us we all took the ongoing 10 and started wailing on eachother and two more people got phased into the chamber below with me. The dragon smacks around the cleric and wizard who were left on the main floor and go unconcious and quickly die. The three of us on floor 2 have one round to start trying to recover before it phases down breath weapons us again and dominates us again. I save against the daze but get phased down to level 3. Long story short it kills the two guys on level 2 (they were mostly dead anyways). In that time I manage to mostly recover and it comes down, I have one round where i burn everything I got to do a rather impressive amount of damage (though not even close to being anywhere near enough) and it kills me. I have since bought a coif of mindiron and a steadfast amulet to help but what else can we do here?
#2 darkwanderer7 Mar 12, 2009 10:05:23	Well, I think I found the problem myself. I just looked up the purple dragon and my DM was playing him wrong. Nightmare gaze should only have effected one of us, not all at the same time. Also it is questionable if phasing strike would make us sink into the ground, could anyone clarify the rules on that?
#3 Armisael Mar 12, 2009 10:17:26	Along with that, the dragon was obscenely lucky. If my party got fully stunned, I'd ask the DM for a mulligan, because it can easily mean someone dieing before even taking a turn.
#4 darkwanderer7 Mar 12, 2009 10:21:52	In this case four out of five of us were dead before anyone of us got to do a single action
#5 mystara Mar 12, 2009 10:23:53	I think your GM may have made some mistakes with the rules. I've only had a quick glance through this, but the following things spring out to me Here is what we fought: Lvl 19 Elder Purple Dragon Here is what happend. It got initiative and phased in from the wall to land next to us. Hit us all with frightful precence which left us all stunned. Hit us with breath weapon which got a Nat 20 and did 28 dmg plus dazed us and gave us ongoing 10 dmg. Hit us with Nightmare prescence which dominated us and we took 20 dmg if we couldn't make our attack. I'm assuming you mean 'Nightmare Gaze', since I cannot find Nightmare Presence. Firstly, although it can phase in, do frightful presence and breathe (after spending an action point), nightmare gaze is a single target effect. So it could only affect one of you with this. Furthermore, the description of nightmare gaze is that you must attack or take 20 psychic damage. Nothing in there about making a successful attack. At the end of each of our rounds it got a free phasing attack which would phase us through the ground into the chamber below. Phasing strike is an immediate reaction. So it's only allowed to do that once per round. So it shouldn't have been able to do it at the end of everyone's round. Also, there are restrictions on specifically when it gets to use phasing strike. The first round was a right off as we were stunned and a couple people managed to get saves against the dominate effect and I the fighter got phased through the ground to the chamber below. hm, that's a little harsh. But as I read them, it is within the rules. When attacked by a phasing strike, you're pushed 5 squares (and you gain phasing during that movement). So it could slam you through the floor. Of course, as I've already said, it couldn't do it to both of you. Since phasing strike is an immediate reaction and you only get one such action per round. Dragon re-dominates everyone who saved against it before (we then realized that we should be saving against daze instead of dominate) and proceeds to start beating up the cleric. Okay, lots of things here. Firstly, I'm confused by "we should have been saving against daze instead of dominate". You get one save per condition. So if you're dazed AND dominated, you get to make a daze against dazed then a save against dominated. However, keep in mind that you are always dazed while dominated. So you have to keep track of the original daze effect and the one caused by domination separately (phew). Secondly, the dragon's domination effect requires that you be dazed or stunned to begin with. So if you successfully saved against the original dazed effect and THEN against the domination, you cannot be redominated. Round 2 for us we all took the ongoing 10 and started wailing on eachother and two more people got phased into the chamber below with me. Well, if you didn't even get a chance to save against the ongoing damage, then that's going to start hurting. The three of us on floor 2 have one round to start trying to recover before it phases down breath weapons us again and dominates us again. Again, I'm a little confused here. The recovery of the breath weapon is random, so you may have more than one round. I have since bought a coif of mindiron and a steadfast amulet to help but what else can we do here? My group recently fought a purple dragon, and it was HARD. By dominating the defender (which may have a low will save), the group not only lost all marking abilities, but also had one of their own allies attacking them. There is no shortcut to killing dragons. It's in the nature of the game. Arm up on healing potions, protection from energy potions and ranged weaponry. If you can protect yourself from the breath weapon, there's little reason not to stick next to each other. Then you can pile in on it for flanking/CA. You would also do well to arm up on things like tanglefoot bags and other things that can prevent it flying. Finally, against a purple dragon, ensure you have some way to break domination. The heal skill (DC 15, which should be easy at your level) allows you to offer a character a save against an effect. If you can't do that, find some way to compensate for the loss of any single member of your party. When dominated, not only do you lose that party member, but they'll be attacking you. The biggest loss to deal with is either your healer or your defender. However, the use of a protection from energy potion and something like a tanglefoot bag while immobilise a dominated character. Maybe long enough to have them save. That's about all I can suggest. There's no shortcut to taking down a dragon. They're tough. Purple ones especially, in my opinion. But from the looks of things, your GM has tilted the odds vastly against you.
#6 mystara Mar 12, 2009 10:27:18	Well, I think I found the problem myself. I just looked up the purple dragon and my DM was playing him wrong. Nightmare gaze should only have effected one of us, not all at the same time. Also it is questionable if phasing strike would make us sink into the ground, could anyone clarify the rules on that? Puh, that's what I get for writing a long reply. Nightmare gaze: correct. Phasing strike: By the RAW, as far as I can see, it's allowed. By giving you the phasing ability, you can move through solid objects. The only requirement is that by "pushing" you, you have to be travelling further away from the dragon. Which you are, by moving through the floor. It's a bit harsh, but as far as I can see, it's a completely valid and effective tactic (which is suitable for a paragon creature of 21 intelligence!)
#7 negative_hp Mar 12, 2009 10:35:11	Also with the breath attack, shouldn't the DM have rolled once per target? Then the original crit would have affected one player-- not the entire group... Some of you may have avoided being hit by this altogether.
#8 eleran Mar 12, 2009 10:36:43	Your DM jobbed you. Nightmare Gaze is a single target attack. Phasing allows you to phase thru matter, it does not FORCE you fall thru the floor. However, I could see him giving you phasing then finding some way to push you thru into a chamber below. AHA, check out his breath weapon. Each time someone fails to save vs the dazing effect the dragon gets to slide them 5 squares, which means if they were already phased they could be slid thru the floor into a chamber below. Hmmm, this gives me ideas...
#9 eleran Mar 12, 2009 10:37:32	Also with the breath attack, shouldn't the DM have rolled once per target? Then the original crit would have affected one player-- not the entire group... Some of you may have avoided being hit by this altogether. Excellent point that I missed. Many attack rolls, one damage roll.
#10 darkwanderer7 Mar 12, 2009 10:52:06	Ok thanks for all the posts! Apparently we have been playing several rules wrong. 1) We we under the mistaken impression that you only get one save at the end of your turn and not a save against each effect. Certainly explains why controllers have been whooping our butts. 2) We were playing with single attack roll on bursts and blasts, that will change some things as well.
#11 mystara Mar 12, 2009 10:53:39	@eleran: Phasing strike itself pushes you 5 squares, and you gain phasing during that movement. So you could use that to push someone through the floor.
#12 aidan_blackthorn Mar 12, 2009 13:36:29	@eleran: Phasing strike itself pushes you 5 squares, and you gain phasing during that movement. So you could use that to push someone through the floor. No, you couldn't. PHB, page 285, under Forced Movement: * Distance in squares: The power you're using specifies how many squares you can move a target. You can choose to move the target fewer squares or not to move it at all. You can't move the target vertically.
#13 eleran Mar 12, 2009 13:38:59	No, you couldn't. PHB, page 285, under Forced Movement: * Distance in squares: The power you're using specifies how many squares you can move a target. You can choose to move the target fewer squares or not to move it at all. You can't move the target vertically. Thanks for that. I guess thats out, although if there were a nearby wall you could move them horizontally thru it into another chamber, right?
#14 salla Mar 12, 2009 16:34:15	The DM should definitely 'undo' that encounter, since so many rules were getting fouled up.
#15 Titanium_Dragon Mar 12, 2009 20:44:43	It got initiative and phased in from the wall to land next to us. Hit us all with frightful precence which left us all stunned. Hit us with breath weapon which got a Nat 20 and did 28 dmg plus dazed us and gave us ongoing 10 dmg. Hit us with Nightmare prescence which dominated us and we took 20 dmg if we couldn't make our attack. First off, you roll a separate attack roll for each creature in the AoE. A natural 20 only criticals one character, not the entire party. Secondly, you roll a separate attack roll for each creature in the AoE. This is why you all got hit as well. There's a reason the rules work this way. Thirdly: Well, I think I found the problem myself. I just looked up the purple dragon and my DM was playing him wrong. Nightmare gaze should only have effected one of us, not all at the same time. This too. Furthermore, the description of nightmare gaze is that you must attack or take 20 psychic damage. Nothing in there about making a successful attack. Right, you don't have to hit. Phasing strike is an immediate reaction. So it's only allowed to do that once per round. So it shouldn't have been able to do it at the end of everyone's round. Also, there are restrictions on specifically when it gets to use phasing strike. Ditto. hm, that's a little harsh. But as I read them, it is within the rules. When attacked by a phasing strike, you're pushed 5 squares (and you gain phasing during that movement). So it could slam you through the floor. Nope. You cannot. Forced movement can only force you horizontally. It cannot force you to move vertically. Period. Ergo, it is impossible for him to shove you through the floor. Firstly, I'm confused by "we should have been saving against daze instead of dominate". You get one save per condition. So if you're dazed AND dominated, you get to make a daze against dazed then a save against dominated. Right. Again, I'm a little confused here. The recovery of the breath weapon is random, so you may have more than one round. Not necessarily. He could just recover it pretty much immediately. Its not all that likely though.
#16 jhanzur Mar 13, 2009 12:26:02	Your DM rolled 5 20s in a row...... wow. Thats gotta be a record. Area attacks roll seperatly for each target.
#17 sjmcc13 Mar 13, 2009 13:06:43	2) We were playing with single attack roll on bursts and blasts, that will change some things as well. Don't, it is just laziness that will cause problems in the end. In prior editions, when the enemy wizard cast fireball, did you only roll one die for the groups saving throws???