First off, the type of game we're playing doesn't have a set moral boundary of "Black and White" high fantasy or "Gray" realism. We've had lengthy discussion on which game we want to play but can never seem to agree on anything. We just finished our fifth session so far and have just been winging it.
We are in the middle of our second quest along with being muddled in part of my back story. The problem is this:
We have recently acquired various equipment and are trying to decide what to do with it. The items in question are a Greatsword of goodbane and a Shortsword of vampirism(or something), both of which radiate a decent amount of evilness.
One character wants to destroy them, or at the very least purify them. He is very opposed to selling them, since the only people who would use them would be bad guys, and they'll just use them to further the cause of 'evil'.
Others are rationalizing that it isn't the weapon that kills people, but people that kill people, and want to sell them because they're worth a decent bit of gold and we reaaaally need to recharge our healing wand.
Now, I know some of you are thinking "What's a alignment based item doing in a game that isn't high fantasy." Try to ignore this part and just put down your thoughts for both styles of game.
The answer is: there is no answer.
The people that want to destroy the weapons are working towards the perceived common good and long term solutions albeit at a low level to the weal of the campaign, not worried about the short term monetary benefit.
The people that want to to sell the weapons are looking at short term, personal benefit, screw the long term.
As a DM, I'd remain neutral.
As a player, depending on the PCs goals, and personality, I could go either / or.
Kudos to you for bringing this here. In truth, it is up to your players to decide. If they are pretty polarized, it might break the party depending on greed of the mercenary types vs. survival of the altruistic types.
A) A potential short term solution that might work for both is that a temple of good offers to buy the weapons, and guarantees to destroy them.
If you're seeking a solution, that's one I'd put up in front of the players.
B) That, or evil bad guy temple representatives arrive to steal or take the weapons by force, perhaps killing up to a quarter of the party. Then maybe killing off most of the rest, using the weapons themselves.
I'd go with A, but B is also thematically valid, I think.
Good luck.
Do the altruistic members that want to destroy the weapons give up their split of the party gold in order to keep the sword out of enemy hands? Or should the group adopt a policy that strong arms the greedier members into "Doing the right (good) thing"?
Also, are there rules on purifying evil items or reversing enchantments so they do the opposite, i.e. making the greatsword evilbane, and lifting the taint from the vampiric shortsword?
B) That, or evil bad guy temple representatives arrive to steal or take the weapons by force, perhaps killing up to a quarter of the party. Then maybe killing off most of the rest, using the weapons themselves.
Good luck.
I'm not so sure that'd go over very well. :P
Redeeming evil items is handled, i think, in the Book of Exalted Deeds.
Secondly:
Only intelligent things have alignments. Rocks, for example, don't. Neither do average weapons. They might shine bright with Necromancy (if studied with the appropriate spell) but not Evil. Good/Evil are things for creatures who have a choice.
Therefore, the items in question should either be intelligent, or not aligned at all.
Now, i realize that doesn't address your issue directly: but if you are a player rather than the DM then you need to keep it in mind. /the weapons you found may be intelligent/.
Now, assuming that the DM is ignoring this and that they are evil because the enchantments "are not pleasant", a good alternative is to try to sell the "evil" items to a good church.
A church of pelor or heronious (sp? bah.. always butcher that one) would probably be willing to take the items off your hands in order to destroy or redeem them. (they'd prolly do so at a steep discount, but some gold is better than the nothing you get if -you- destroy it).
At the very least you can put forth the idea to the group.
We (the group i'm with) have actually done this with several magical items we felt were too "icky" to sell to random merchants, while at the same time we were too greedy to just fire up the ole fireball and melt 'em down.
-S
Also, are there rules on purifying evil items or reversing enchantments so they do the opposite, i.e. making the greatsword evilbane, and lifting the taint from the vampiric shortsword?
Suggest that idea to the DM. Perhaps a nice mini-quest to avenge the souls of the innocents that were sacrificed to create the swords in the first place. You get to track down the evil cultists to the blood-stained altar where the swords were consecrated to evil. Break the altar, lift the curses, and still the swords are enchanted (but not quite the same enchantment).
1) You don't know that whoever buys the items will use them for evil;
2) They are swords, only evil people would really want them, duh!
A good aligned party should really destroy them, or sell them to somebody that would destroy them or keep them safe.
I'm going to second the previous notion of giving the evil weapons to the good church in exchange for a recharged wand and some spending money. (recharge for the vampiric sword, money for the goodbane)
I agree.
There's no reason a Good-aligned church wouldn't compensate us for ridding the world of a few evil creatures and seeking to stop the spread of weapons that focus on killing good guys. Some might call it selfish, but we had to expend a lot of time and resources acquiring them, and in order to further pursue the cause of good we need funding.
We decided to sell it to a good church. They were cool with paying for it, because they were providing resources to a bunch of heroes that fight evil - in essence, investing resources in the battle against evil. What they did with it (purify, destroy, hide) we don't know.
How would you justify selling it to a neutral, or even an evil person?
Well first off, I'd mark it somehow (Arcane Mark?) and let the local authorities (and forces of good) know about it. With any luck, your party just set a trap for potential badguys, or at least have the means to track their activities and put a stop to something bad down the road. If you're really fortunate the badguys who buy it use it for the "evil vs. evil" sort of scenarios, delaying the need to intervene.
Proof that even a tool of evil can be used for the sake of the goodguys.
Yeah, people direct those things to kill other people, but the pure existence of those weapons is a bad thing.
For example, what if there's an accident involving such weapons? There could be a lot of life lost for just having these weapons "around." And when it comes time to use such weapons, there will be an extreme loss of life. You can't ignore something like that.
It's like if you find a handgun in the middle of a park. You're not going to leave the handgun on the ground for some kid to find. You can't just ignore it.
I know it's a world of difference from magic weapons in D&D to nukes, but it is an analogy. Different strokes for different folks.
Get rid of the weapons in a way you can be sure that they won't be used again. The best way to do that would be to find a good church or organization as others have mentioned, and let them deal with the morality of it and the details.
And lots of people have suggested it - sell the weapons to a good church or noble organisation that has a vested interest in keeping them out of evil hands.
If you pick the right people to approach, they should see the fairness in giving you some monetary compensation for giving up your option to sell for the best price, and as malignor says, they should also recognise the value of giving your party resources to continue the fight against evil.
Edit - I'm a little surprised that some people have never encountered this sort of issue before; it's happened quite a few times in my years of playing. I guess that just illustrates the infinite possibilities of D&D!
As soon as I'd read your post I knew there must be a middle ground somewhere in between the options of destroy/purify and sell.
And lots of people have suggested it - sell the weapons to a good church or noble organisation that has a vested interest in keeping them out of evil hands.
If you pick the right people to approach, they should see the fairness in giving you some monetary compensation for giving up your option to sell for the best price, and as malignor says, they should also recognise the value of giving your party resources to continue the fight against evil.
Edit - I'm a little surprised that some people have never encountered this sort of issue before; it's happened quite a few times in my years of playing. I guess that just illustrates the infinite possibilities of D&D!
I agree, this is the best course of action to take in the future. Whenever we find ourselves remaining around one city for a couple of missions in a row, we should spend some time tracking down a good vendor where we can dispose of the hazardous items we acquire.
Thank you everyone for your input and help on this matter.
(on a side note, I thought you might find it interesting that the PC that's policing our parties actions is a Rogue, whereas My crusader is the one trying to get cash for the goods.
I think the rogue is a Harper or agent for the king or something, he never steals or attacks someone before he knows for sure they're an enemy (he forgoes his first sneak attack, even if they're dressed in black with menacing daggers and sneaking around our inn))Is a Vampiric Shortsword really evil? I can see the Unholy Greatsword, since it's only useful against good creatures. But the shortsword is equally effective against opponents of all alignments.
I'm not sure if the way it operates makes it evil or not. What form of magic is that? Necromancy? I remember someone mentioning that healing spells are also considered necromancy because they alter life force... so I don't know.
The DM did specify that it a weak aura of evil when we scryed it with detect magic.
Personally, I wouldn't be worried about it. The vampiric short sword could be useful to any member of the party (or to any good warrior), and shouldn't be considered at all for being destroyed without adequate renumeration to the party (adequate meaning full). I can entirely understand the mercenary types getting their panties in a twist about this - they risked life and limb, and this is their reward?
The Goodbane greatsword is a very, very powerful item though. Very very powerful, and by extension very, very valueable. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if one of the mercenary types turns completely Darth Vader on you guys and uses it to chop up everyone opposing his point of view. I'm not sure what level you guys are though, and that can make a big difference in this equation; My guess is that you're all relatively low, otherwise this wouldn't be quite so big a deal that you have to bring it to these forums. My personal advice (ignoring the fact that most of my characters are the aforementioned mercenary type and I would make any excuse or argument to get some wealth from that immense piece of power) is to cut a deal with the other guys in your party - sell the vampiric shortsword since there's absolutely nothing wrong with it, and then destroy the greatsword or turn it in to the good aligned church.
Off topic: While healing spells SHOULD be necromancy, since they fall directly under that category in every notable way, they're actually "Conjuration [Healing]" instead.
Personally, I wouldn't be worried about it. The vampiric short sword could be useful to any member of the party (or to any good warrior), and shouldn't be considered at all for being destroyed without adequate renumeration to the party (adequate meaning full). I can entirely understand the mercenary types getting their panties in a twist about this - they risked life and limb, and this is their reward?
The Goodbane greatsword is a very, very powerful item though. Very very powerful, and by extension very, very valueable. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if one of the mercenary types turns completely Darth Vader on you guys and uses it to chop up everyone opposing his point of view. I'm not sure what level you guys are though, and that can make a big difference in this equation; My guess is that you're all relatively low, otherwise this wouldn't be quite so big a deal that you have to bring it to these forums. My personal advice (ignoring the fact that most of my characters are the aforementioned mercenary type and I would make any excuse or argument to get some wealth from that immense piece of power) is to cut a deal with the other guys in your party - sell the vampiric shortsword since there's absolutely nothing wrong with it, and then destroy the greatsword or turn it in to the good aligned church.
You are right, we are all level 3. I think the reason the DM put the Goodbane Greatsword in the loot we retrieved from some Evil-Diety Soldiers is to balance the complete lack of treasure in our last couple of sessions (things kept happening, like the building burning down and destroying the bodies, and the ones we managed to retrieve had 25g and a normal sword. It got to the point where we couldn't afford to recharge our Wand of Cure Light Wounds(we don't have a dedicated healer)). That, and possibly he put it in because he likes morality debates or is possibly punishing us for being wishy-washy and not telling him what type of campaign we'd like to play.
you get your gold and conscious.
Sell it... to a museum. Owned & run by a famous good wizard.
you get your gold and conscious.
Panama Hat: This is the second time I've had to reclaim my property from you!
Indiana Jones: That belongs in a museum!
Panama Hat: So do you!